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I think at times that you see this aspect as an either-or, like somehow your marriage (or divorce) is the pivotal piece.

And I think your wife also sees it this way.

Letting go of that outcome is difficult, but very important for both of you. Recovery and reconciliation are both marathons and not sprints.

My husband had the six month decision point too. I don’t think it’s bad to delay decisions and put a timer in when to reevaluate. It’s a way of coping for some.

But the reality is as long as the outcome is the main goal you will look for confirmation bias based on whatever way you are leaning that day, week, month,etc. it will continue to be a moving target.

And for her part, being attached to an outcome will cause her to manipulate under panic. I don’t think all manipulation is conscious or malicious. But as long as she is focused on an outcome she is steered away from authenticity.

The mask being talked about is a result of that. She is doing what she can every day to appease you but hasn’t had time to start seeing how her thoughts mislead her. I literally had to start challenging what my motivation was for everything, I had to challenge my thoughts and be mindful that most of the time they were composed of a narrative that was completely made up in my head.

She also still is in a stage where she does not understand trauma. People get PTSD from this shit. She doesn’t understand how the complaints of the marriage are dwarfed by her betrayal. Triage the bullet wound and worry about the minor cuts later.

At any rate the outcome you need to focus is exactly what is described here:

There’s such a subtle shift that it’s hard to explain but when it’s made the answer to R or D doesn’t come as a result of your wife or her behavior…it comes as a result of your own internal growth. And the events that happen on a day-to-day basis become less about "on base hits vs strike-outs" (score-keeping of the marriage) and more about catalysts and road signs of where you are in your own progress. There’s a world of difference between "my wife did this and she needs to stop lest we get a divorce" and "my wife did this and I want to look deeper at what this is triggering in me and why I feel it’s so fundamental to my well-being". I just don’t feel that we are ever getting to the deeper stuff.

I fully support everything HO is saying. Personally I think she’s hitting every mark.

The only piece I keep harping on and the aspect that I’m not sure you are fully getting (but in fairness, this is also a process and I think you are doing well)….the focusing on yourself.

I think at times that you see this aspect as an either-or, like somehow your marriage (or divorce) is the pivotal piece.

I don’t view it that way. I see it as more the thing you are doing WHILE your wife figures out (or not) her shit. This perspective/focus is how you "win" no matter the outcome of your marriage or what your wife does/doesn’t do. I think the added benefit in your case is that it also takes some of the immediate pressure off you (with making the D or R decision)…and it takes some pressure off your wife.

There’s such a subtle shift that it’s hard to explain but when it’s made the answer to R or D doesn’t come as a result of your wife or her behavior…it comes as a result of your own internal growth. And the events that happen on a day-to-day basis become less about "on base hits vs strike-outs" (score-keeping of the marriage) and more about catalysts and road signs of where you are in your own progress. There’s a world of difference between "my wife did this and she needs to stop lest we get a divorce" and "my wife did this and I want to look deeper at what this is triggering in me and why I feel it’s so fundamental to my well-being". I just don’t feel that we are ever getting to the deeper stuff. I also think this is one reason why you have such a divide in your responses; Everybody is following the bouncing ball of your daily ups and downs *in the marriage*.

I do wonder if you are subconsciously using the day-to-day ups and downs (and subsequently the responses they are generating) as a distraction/avoidance of your own deeper issues. Again, I see your progress in this area so I don’t want that to be lost in my point. I just don’t know that you’ve made your own growth the *priority* - and that is where/when/how this shift happens.

My WW's behavior is a fairly small part of my life, but it is the bulk of this thread. That's the part of my life I'm interested in exploring here and I'm seeking answers on.

Outside of interactions with my wife, my life has been fairly happy as of late. I've started a new tradition of doing most of the grocery shopping and taking my daughter along with me--they have kid carts that she can push. It's the most fun I have all day lol. I'm still interfacing with friends, family and handling work as well. That's 80+% of my life and I discuss virtually none of it in this thread.

Regarding my response to my wife's behavior, I'm not sure what you mean. If we use the incident from last Thursday, her behavior while we were being sexually intimate combined with her words afterward were unacceptable to me. I can't force her to behave differently or say different words--she will do what she wants. But they make me feel awful and I find them unacceptable. I'm not closed off from exploring how it makes me feel--I do it all the time, including in this thread.

They make me feel bad because they devalue me; they show me she has no genuine love and respect for me. I'm not willing to have a relationship with someone who can treat me so cruelly.

We had an interesting exchange last night and this morning.

I told my WW about an incident between my mom and her husband: he misunderstood something and got angry with my mom. Nothing new. My WW replied: "Your mom deals with a lot in that relationship."

Smirking, I quipped, "I can relate."

It was like a dagger for my WW, which puzzled me in the moment. It was light-hearted, not malicious; and certainly not untrue. But I could tell she was upset.

We separated for a bit. I thought about it: the comment was insensitive of me. Regardless of how harmless my intentions, it was hurtful in its design and unproductive communication. It's part of my nature to do things like that, but on this topic, I should know better.

I apologized to her and she thanked me for that. She said she planned to discuss it a bit in IC and I thought that was good.

Now, what I assumed was she would do is go to IC and talk about why she was so upset by the comment--just as you point out, the ability to go deeper in examining oneself. That wasn't the case though.

I asked how IC went--she spent most of the time talking about last Thursday, but she did talk about last night. She said her take away was that I made an insensitive dig at her and apologized for it, so she should just get over it.

I suspect she missed the point though. She doesn't need IC to draw that conclusion. Instead she should be exploring WHY it upset her. So I asked her why--she told me it was because things were going really well in that moment and my comment turned things negative.

But again, she's missing the point. Why was it negative? What about my very harmless and TRUTHFUL comment made her go down a negative spiral? Had I made that comment pre-affair, she'd have laughed. But now because she knows it's deathly true, it hurt her.

I didn't ask her to dig deeper because I've learned my lesson not to dig, but the conversation left me concerned. She's still deflecting all blame off of herself. In her mind, it's everyone else's behavior that must change and then she'd be fine. It makes me assume it's just a matter of time before the next incident she misjudges and the fallout that follows.

But me exploring these types of incidents is exactly what I'm using this thread for. I'm open to all perspectives, including your suggestion that I explore myself. If I'm not doing enough introspection, I'm open to more--I'm just asking your criticism be more targeted and specific.

And FWIW, I don't *think* my comment was me channeling my hurt or being passive aggressive. I think it was an instinctive, thoughtless thing I said without any consideration for how it might be received.

She's still deflecting all blame off of herself. In her mind, it's everyone else's behavior that must change and then she'd be fine.

100% true. She is still very much in the trying to have good behavior phase. There is no way to know if she will ever move beyond it because she hasn't given you any indication that she can. So it becomes about how much you can take and exploring why what she does makes you feel so disappointed, especially when you have no reason to think she wants to be any different, and how to deal with it in a way that helps you.

Have you guys discussed what she/you both are modeling for your kids? Has that given her any motivation to exam her thought process further? I mean, to make a comment about any relationship like that seems pretty dense coming from a wayward spouse.

Have you guys discussed what she/you both are modeling for your kids? Has that given her any motivation to exam her thought process further? I mean, to make a comment about any relationship like that seems pretty dense coming from a wayward spouse.

Yea, I've made the point of leading our kids through example a few times. The issue is she can't see it in the moment. I have no doubt she'll see what I meant and come to me tonight or tomorrow and acknowledge it. The issue is while it's happening, it's entirely lost on her.

I think she has a deep frustration that I'm still upset with her over the affair--and I think she has felt that way for months. However, in the first week after DDay, the most common thing we read in shared books and articles is how awful it is for a WS to imply that a BS should be "over it by now."

I know that sunk in with her early. So anytime that's even hinted at, she gets very defensive about it, telling me she doesn't feel that way. I don't believe her though.

In the "incident" last night, if you break it down, that's the problem. We were both outwardly happy--things were going fine. Then I made the comment and it reminded her that she is an awful person and her husband knows it. It made her sad, but what does she do with that sadness?

She can't apply blame to herself, so she looks toward me; she gets frustrated that I'm reminding her that she's awful--but even more so: that I still think she's awful. But now she's in a bind--she can't let on to me that she's angry with me that I'm still upset with her, so she has to stuff it down.

After all the mental gymnastics, she's left with this resolution: "I just need to get over it."

She can't take the next step to examine it. For her to realize the problem for her emotionally is what she did and not what I said would require her to be the bad guy in her mind. She spends all her time figuring out how she's the victim.

I've written about it before, but I honestly feel her victim-mentality is the core issue to everything. It all feeds off that.

One thing I know tend to forget in trying to understand Doc’s relationship/approach with his WW is that he has very unique circumstances.

Most BHs would be incredibly angry, disturbed, and emasculated by his WWs A wrt the sex part. Doc, on the other hand, because of his cuck fantasy, got over the sex issue relatively quickly. Instead, he’s bothered by his WWs negative personality traits, which are the same personality traitors she had prior to the A, which he had to endure prior to snd now post A. The difference is that Doc currently is no longer willing to live with that.

I guess what I’m saying is that Doc has a bit of an easier job. I hope I’m not offending Doc or anyone else by saying this. However, most BS post A have to deal with the emotional and sexual abuse that their WS’ A foisted upon them. Doc is dealing with really only the emotional side, and even that part is very discrete - needing his WW to fix the very things in her personality that were already broken pre A.

I say all of this in the context of many poster’s advice to detach, etc. In light of what I just said above, perhaps Doc is charting a path that is unique to what we’ve seen on SI in the past?

But now she's in a bind--she can't let on to me that she's angry with me that I'm still upset with her, so she has to stuff it down.

After all the mental gymnastics, she's left with this resolution: "I just need to get over it."

A remorseful WS would have taken the opportunity to show remorseful. They would have responded.."you're so right. I was horrible. I did horrible things. I'm working, every day, to never be that person again,and to become a safe partner. I'm so sorry. I love you."

However,

She spends all her time figuring out how she's the victim.

She has the tools. She just doesn't use them.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:26 PM, Thursday, August 11th]

I will share a story of where I believe your wife is.

When I was a kid 7 or 8 I loved playing with crawlers. Anything, snakes, spiders, centipedes fire ants, Anything.

I would catch these crawlers many of them extremely dangerous, put them in jars to either fight or to terrorize friends and family.

My mother would constantly tell my how dangerous my handling the crawlers was. Didn't listen, didn't get it.

Couple things happened that caused me to modify and ultimately change my behavior

I got stung by a bee. Swoll up like the a marshmallow man. Deathly allergy to bees. I modified my behavior. I would no longer hand handle the crawlers. Now I used thongs.

My much older female cousin, I believe she was 18 or 19 at the time, pushed me down one day. I want a caught a black widow. Grab it with my thongs by the leg and chased her around our grandma's backyard. I cornered her and started to pump the spider at her. She wet her pants which encourages me more. Eventually the leg broke off, the spider landed on her face and bit her between her nose and lip. She was hospitalized several days.

I was a small child and lacked empathy for people and the crawlers. Because I lacked empathy I only modified my behavior to protect my self.

That is were your wife is. Problem is she's an adult. You are seeing modified behavior and she is only looking to protect herself and limit how this all negatively impacts her.

You asked how to make it actionable...STOP. Thats all.

Stop giving her the roadmap, stop sharing with her, stop focusing on what she feels or what she wants. Let her figure it out on her own. Leave it up to her to get you comfortable with the idea of reconciliation.

As long as you are leading the charge she will continue to modify.

Dude- I typically agree with your posts. However I think this is not anything to do with his kink. My husband saw me with other men Prior to my affair. The impact of the betrayal was really no less. I suspect he hasn’t completely come out of the shock phase.

DSL- As for your response to truth sets you free maybe it will sink in later. This is not about the fact you are able to function, which is extraordinary. This is about you are clearly working on reconciliation. You don’t think you are but everything you describe you absolutely are. That’s why people keep saying it.

It’s not out of the ordinary to want to keep the marriage, and I am not shaming you for that. But you are continuing to put effort and bandwidth with someone who doesn’t get it yet. You are going to end up to exhausted. If you want to save the marriage save your energy and bandwidth for when she can finally stop faking it and really do it.

She needs to read about trauma, she needs to understand this is not going away for years. She needs to understand love is about giving. If you reconcile with her through the process you are now either you will give up or she will eventually cheat again. we are not coming up with any of this out of thin air.

Saying that your wife’s behavior is a small part of your life doesn’t track for a newly betrayed person. Of course you are hinging a lot on her behaviors. It’s natural to want to try and understand.

Please know I am saying this with only your best interests in mind.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:27 AM, Friday, August 12th]

Hiking out I hear ya, and I was simply throwing the idea out there as food for thought.

I think Doc should start thinking about what he wants to do with his life in the likely scenario that his relationship with his WW will continue to improve over time, with her insensitive slip ups periodically occurring in between. He needs to think about the likely scenario that these slip ups were, are and always will be his WWs true self being exposed.

Will Doc be content with this? For the rest of their lives he will get all the sex he wants and a much better version of the pre A wife. At the same time Doc needs to realize that the true wife was, and always will be, the pre A wife at heart.

Can you live with this scenario? You will most likely be happy the vast majority of the time. A husband with a non exploratory, superficial personality would be perfectly content in this scenario. That’s not not Docs personality, however.

I say all this so Doc can think about what he can and wants to live with in the future.

Dude- I don’t disagree with any of that. I just didn’t think it was easier or less traumatic due to the kink. In fact some of the things he has said makes me think it’s worse because it had been refused in the past. Consensual versus non consensual extramarital sexual partners is still to vastly different.

I will also add that you are correct certain things will always be in her nature. No one changes 100 percent. However, with true deep introspection, done because the person doesn’t want to be that person significant changes can be made in time. I am very different today than I was 5 years ago. It’s night and day. I still have some tendencies to people please in certain scenarios but I monitor myself greatly.

I think a switch has to be flipped that the ws deeply doesn’t want to be this person and they do the work not to save the marriage or to check a box but because they know how deeply many of their internal conditions contributed to the slide towards the affair. I think most ws’s are just trying to survive this far out. When my husband asked for a divorce and we temporarily separated at 10 months , I kept working. I needed to be different for myself.

You are right, he can expect to live with this version for some time. Changing the foundation of who you are is slow and arduous. We agree I just think he writes well and it makes it seem like he is doing better than he probably is some of the time.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:51 AM, Friday, August 12th]

One thing I know tend to forget in trying to understand Doc’s relationship/approach with his WW is that he has very unique circumstances.

Most BHs would be incredibly angry, disturbed, and emasculated by his WWs A wrt the sex part. Doc, on the other hand, because of his cuck fantasy, got over the sex issue relatively quickly. Instead, he’s bothered by his WWs negative personality traits, which are the same personality traitors she had prior to the A, which he had to endure prior to snd now post A. The difference is that Doc currently is no longer willing to live with that.

I guess what I’m saying is that Doc has a bit of an easier job. I hope I’m not offending Doc or anyone else by saying this. However, most BS post A have to deal with the emotional and sexual abuse that their WS’ A foisted upon them. Doc is dealing with really only the emotional side, and even that part is very discrete - needing his WW to fix the very things in her personality that were already broken pre A.

I say all of this in the context of many poster’s advice to detach, etc. In light of what I just said above, perhaps Doc is charting a path that is unique to what we’ve seen on SI in the past?

Dude, I don’t think it’s quite that simple for me, but I understand your perspective.

Ever since my IC suggested using my kink as a pathway to healing, I’ve tried to lean into it at times. Ultimately, I don’t think it has helped. The sex is just too entangled with the betrayal.

On the other hand, mind movies of them having sex are not that problematic for me anymore (they were a far worse issue a few months ago) and I understand they can be critical for other BS. For me, the actual memories of her behavior during the affair period are far worse—and even with my own memory recreations based on what she has told me, her laughing and happy with him is more painful than her having sex with him.

Ultimately, leaning into the kink may have helped if she was remorseful. I think I could have used it to help me heal while her words and behavior enforced my healing. But that just hasn’t been the case.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:13 PM, Friday, August 12th]

A remorseful WS would have taken the opportunity to show remorseful. They would have responded.."you're so right. I was horrible. I did horrible things. I'm working, every day, to never be that person again,and to become a safe partner. I'm so sorry. I love you."

Agreed entirely. It’s a clear indication that she is not remorseful.

I suspect he hasn’t completely come out of the shock phase.

This is about you are clearly working on reconciliation. You don’t think you are but everything you describe you absolutely are. That’s why people keep saying it.

It’s not out of the ordinary to want to keep the marriage, and I am not shaming you for that.

If you reconcile with her through the process you are now either you will give up or she will eventually cheat again. we are not coming up with any of this out of thin air.

In this community, there are no shortage of labels.

I’ve heard a lot about phases since this all began—what phase I’m in, when the anger will hit, etc. I paid a lot of attention to it as it seemed to be universally accepted—outside of this forum as well. The truth is, outside of the first few weeks when I was an emotional wreck, I don’t have any relation to being in a phase. Anger, acceptance, etc.—they’re entirely hollow to me; unproductive oversimplifications.

I often wonder why they’re throw around so frequently—does it help posters compartmentalize my story? Make me easier to define so you can diagnose? Every word and action gets put in a bucket and tidied up.

You’re telling me I’m in R with my WW as well. Ok. Is this the part where I respond that I’m not again? Or maybe I am in R and we are just having a semantical disagreement—is early R different than my limbo? I thought it was, but perhaps it doesn’t matter. I am in precisely the scenario I am in.

Here’s the hard truth, HikingOut: If I had to bet an amount of money that mattered to me, I’d bet I’d be divorced in less than a year. That’s where I think this is all going. As she has plainly demonstrated, she is going to fuck up again and emotionally abuse me. I’m then going to walk away. It all seems inevitable to me; but more to the point, I can’t figure out why the stage I’m in or the stage the marriage is in will matter when that happens.

The reason I’m here now is because I gave her six months to show she can change. It’s been five. Despite what HellFire has written, I do think she has shown progress. But ultimately, it’s not enough. And I know you think I should extend the time period another six months—but I’ll be clear on that too: I have no intention of doing that.

A month from now, the training wheels are off and there will be nothing compelling me to share a living space with an abusive partner any longer. This six month period was for my kids—and perhaps upon reflection, even more so for myself to lesson the guilt of what I know a divorce will do to them. It won’t work though because that will fucking kill me: I know how badly this is going to damage them and I’m seemingly willing to do it anyway. And for that, I’m a POS regardless of how justified an online community will tell me my actions are.

And yes, while I’m living with my WW, I’m leaning into R-type moments. My WW fell asleep cuddled into my chest last night. It was sweet and it’s a memory I’d take after we part—because I won’t part with animosity. I have largely enjoyed the life I’ve built with my wife and I wish she could figure her shit out and wake up. I just don’t see it as likely.

And lastly, of course she would cheat again. The same way she justified this affair, she would justify another. Without remorse, it’s inevitable. Only the next one would certainly be an exit affair as she now has no allusions of me forgiving her or her getting away with it. Again, it seems more likely we D before then, but I’m prepared for it either way.

She needs to read about trauma, she needs to understand this is not going away for years.

I’m open to sharing with her any book you or the community suggests—I suspect she’d happily read it.

**

And I too apologize for being blunt. I greatly value your feedback, but if we can’t lay the cards on the table and communicate clearly, what’s the point?

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:21 PM, Friday, August 12th]

I say all this so Doc can think about what he can and wants to live with in the future.

Dude, I think I need sustained remorse from her.

I only write "think" because it’s a hedge. I’m still terrified of hurting my children. The six month timeframe is ultimately just a way of buying time—there was an outside chance she figured things out, but that seems less and less likely.

Is there a world where I take the comfortable life and roll with it longer? Sure, but it can’t align with ongoing emotional abuse. I think my compromise would be I’d accept her staying broken if she could implement mechanisms to prevent herself from hurting me.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:45 PM, Friday, August 12th]

I think Doc should start thinking about what he wants to do with his life in the likely scenario that his relationship with his WW will continue to improve over time, with her insensitive slip ups periodically occurring in between. He needs to think about the likely scenario that these slip ups were, are and always will be his WWs true self being exposed.

Slip ups are part of being human. His wayward is more human, in having flaws sense, than most. He's going to have to be able to get past them for quite some time if the M is going to survive. Not fair by any means but that's the reality of it. I've avoided commenting on the last one because any detached person could have seen it coming. You have WW iritated on not having her family welcome in their house. Yes they are unwelcome is due to her and her family's actions, but feelings are always that rational. WW has willing to have sex on the required list but really not in mood because of irritation. What was likely to go wrong did.

You admit she's not remorseful. You can not be in R with a WS who isn't remorseful,plays the victim, continues to lie,and lashes out cruelly.

Reconciliation requires a remorseful WS.

You admit she's not remorseful. You can not be in R with a WS who isn't remorseful,plays the victim, continues to lie,and lashes out cruelly.

Reconciliation requires a remorseful WS.

Agreed. It’s why I’m not in R (at least by my interpretation of it).

Slip ups are part of being human. His wayward is more human, in having flaws sense, than most. He's going to have to be able to get past them for quite some time if the M is going to survive.

There’s a line between slipping up and deliberate emotional abuse that my WW is going to need to sort through quickly.

I hear you asking, and I definitely understand this question…. what else can I do? Although you are less than five months past dday, you’re doing it already - you are reconnecting with the part of yourself that will best serve you: the part that is not "doing", but "being".

Being in the moments when you feel safe and whole…. grocery shopping with your daughter, reading to your kids at night, working out, immersing yourself in a song, laughing with a friend or coworker, and especially any time you are releasing yourself from your own thoughts, and simply being you. No analysis, no judgment of self or others, no debate, no wishing-wondering-worrying. Nobody else inhabiting your body and mind but you. Setting aside the external layers of father/husband/son/brother/employee/friend/movie buff/football fan/athlete, even for just a few minutes every day, and connecting with your uncomplicated, wise, steady core self.

"Being" can be a challenge - understandably, you feel like you are still in limbo, an emotionally unsettling tug of war between the past and the future, and the brain is compelled to resolve ambiguity. Yet thinking often begets not solutions, but more thinking, yes? Being is the opposite of thinking. It can be the balm to your pain, grief, loss, confusion, fears, shattered dreams. It’s not escaping reality - it is pausing the pain/fear/trauma areas of your brain, and quietly holding space for your own wisdom to guide you.

I know what it’s like to have a brain that wants to think most of the time. I had to consciously shift out of thought loops, and just be. A human being, not a human doing.

One idea, which I realize is both doing and being :) A solo vacation. Something with limited distractions…. hiking, camping, mountain air… some kind of immersive nature experience to help you focus on the present. I understand the need to plan for the future and address the past, but the present is where you actually are, see what I mean? By taking time to truly unplug, slow down, and breathe, you can anchor yourself in your (-self-). I’d suggest not "thinking" through the pros and cons of a solo trip, but "feel" your way through it instead, by gently tuning into your heart and sitting with it for a few days.

It won’t work though because that will fucking kill me: I know how badly this is going to damage them and I’m seemingly willing to do it anyway.

Hey - this isn't true. It doesn't have to be. I have been through it. I divorced an EXTREMELY remorseful spouse who did and was willing to do all the right things. But it wasn't enough for me. I had a lot of guilt to overcome to accept that. I didn't want him. And my kids are good. We didn't damage them. Really.

If your wife is unhinged and refuses to work on herself after the hypothetical divorce, that can damage them, sure. But that's not on you. You can be a loving supportive parent and be divorced if that's what is best for you. It doesn't have to be damaging and certainly doesn't have to be your fault.

I do think if you continue to live indefinitely with your wife being a total asshole, that will damage them. You are being patient and waiting for that a-ha moment. But if it doesn't come soon, demonstrating that NOT accepting this treatment from a partner or really anyone in life is quite the opposite of damaging. I just wanted to throw that out there.