SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I understand, I was you some years back and on another site. I did exactly what you are doing. I would complain then walk it back. I was given very similar advice to what I just gave you.

I had enabled my wife's behavior from the beginning. Then the affair and all of a sudden all those things were unacceptable, except I continued to enabled her with my actions. I could see her physically doing better, however mentally and emotionally she was on the hamster wheel. Her feet were frantic but very little progress. It wasn't until I wholeheartedly rejected her behavior and identified it as something beyond my control did she truly start moving forward.

I've been a member here for a while, and I've been reading this site for over a decade. I have under 100 post. I've been the most active on your threads. I recognize its because I see so much of my then self in you...hell we were even the same age.

Minus the sex stuff and bad mouthing I feel I could have written everything you have about my wife.

For me it took 8 months to remove my head from....and see my wife for the woman she was, and not this girl I had put on a pedestal at age 17.

I know you believe there are many ways to get where you want to go, but really there is only one. That is detach, allow you wife to sink or swim on her own. Its the only way you will be able to truly move on with her and know she can be your forever person.

Our reluctance to being decisive unfortunately means doing a disservice to ourselves living in limbo. Unfortunately it takes some real tough self-love... which is what I had to do to myself to get myself to the next stage of my life. Basically for myself I said...

Can I accept the way my life is, accept this sh*t sandwich WH served me, stop complaining and trying and basically shut up and move on with him? If the answer is "no" then I need to throw on my big girl pants and be DECISIVE!

Being decisive was hard, it was scary, it was filled with uncertainty, and it was filled with the dread of am I making the right decision. But guess what, making a decision and going in with both feet was the absolute best thing for me and my young child.

For me, it gets to a point where you have to look at yourself in the mirror and say sh*t or get off the pot and just own whatever you decide.

I understand, I was you some years back and on another site. I did exactly what you are doing. I would complain then walk it back. I was given very similar advice to what I just gave you.

I had enabled my wife's behavior from the beginning. Then the affair and all of a sudden all those things were unacceptable, except I continued to enabled her with my actions. I could see her physically doing better, however mentally and emotionally she was on the hamster wheel. Her feet were frantic but very little progress. It wasn't until I wholeheartedly rejected her behavior and identified it as something beyond my control did she truly start moving forward.

I've been a member here for a while, and I've been reading this site for over a decade. I have under 100 post. I've been the most active on your threads. I recognize its because I see so much of my then self in you...hell we were even the same age.

Minus the sex stuff and bad mouthing I feel I could have written everything you have about my wife.

For me it took 8 months to remove my head from....and see my wife for the woman she was, and not this girl I had put on a pedestal at age 17.

I know you believe there are many ways to get where you want to go, but really there is only one. That is detach, allow you wife to sink or swim on her own. Its the only way you will be able to truly move on with her and know she can be your forever person.

I appreciate your posts and insight. Why do you feel I'm not detached?

We live our lives in a shared space and we *largely* are able to enjoy each others company at this point. For the most part, she's emotionally supportive and kind. When she falters, like last week, I disengage immediately now--she'll typically sleep on the couch and within hours figure out how badly she fucked up and apologize for it. We then go through a period of shitty contentment (like we are now), with me a bit sad and her reading cues from me on how to engage.

We still are doing our own things as well--she just did a tap class with a friend and I'm be doing my fantasy football draft with friends in a couple of weekends; not to mention dinners and shows with family on my own.

Ultimately, I'm not quite sure what else you're suggesting I do--in a very literal sense. I'm at the point where my next step would be asking her to move out--what would trigger that precisely is unclear, but I'd say it's very much going to be on the table if we have another incident.

Ideally, there is no next incident though and she keeps making progress. Perhaps the next step comes from me down the line in committing to R with her. I'm doing my best to keep both of those futures as viable options in my mind. It can be easy to lean into one or the other depending on the moment, but I'm trying to remain steadfast in course through limbo.

Our reluctance to being decisive unfortunately means doing a disservice to ourselves living in limbo. Unfortunately it takes some real tough self-love... which is what I had to do to myself to get myself to the next stage of my life. Basically for myself I said...

Can I accept the way my life is, accept this sh*t sandwich WH served me, stop complaining and trying and basically shut up and move on with him? If the answer is "no" then I need to throw on my big girl pants and be DECISIVE!

Being decisive was hard, it was scary, it was filled with uncertainty, and it was filled with the dread of am I making the right decision. But guess what, making a decision and going in with both feet was the absolute best thing for me and my young child.

For me, it gets to a point where you have to look at yourself in the mirror and say sh*t or get off the pot and just own whatever you decide.

I suppose the issue with that is being in limo *feels* like the right decision right now. When I think of asking her to move out or committing to R, neither feels right to me. Admittedly, I've been closer to the former more often than the latter.

I don't believe one should be decisive for the sake of being decisive--while that's important when progress is delayed if no decision is made; in my case, I don't have a definition for what progress is for me. So deciding to move toward or away from my wife could easily be a step in the wrong direction.

I appreciate your posts and insight. Why do you feel I'm not detached?

More than 100 pages of lengthy, deeply analytical posts mainly in regard to her behavior and similar debates would suggest you are still quite attached.

More than 100 pages of lengthy, deeply analytical posts mainly in regard to her behavior and similar debates would suggest you are still quite attached.

An interesting perspective. I write for myself--it's an entirely selfish exercise and I suspect I'd still be doing it if I moved out back in March.

I grant you, my wife of 10 years fucking another man has taken up a chuck of my thoughts these last few months, but I suppose I could write about other topics instead. Are you a football fan? I love fantasy football and I've spent the last few weeks doing some draft prep. I have a home league with my old college buddies coming up--a two QB league. I'm thinking about heavily targeting Lamar Jackson. I really like his point potential in the Ravens offense this season.

Do you have friends IRL that you discuss this with or is it just your counselors and this forum?

An interesting perspective. I write for myself--it's an entirely selfish exercise and I suspect I'd still be doing it if I moved out back in March.

I grant you, my wife of 10 years fucking another man has taken up a chuck of my thoughts these last few months, but I suppose I could write about other topics instead. Are you a football fan? I love fantasy football and I've spent the last few weeks doing some draft prep. I have a home league with my old college buddies coming up--a two QB league. I'm thinking about heavily targeting Lamar Jackson. I really like his point potential in the Ravens offense this season.

No, I am a basketball guy. Looking to see if the Mavericks can ascend to new heights and if the LeBrons can realistically re-tool for another run.

Now, sassy comebacks aside, my point is... you are very obviously not detached from your wife. You react to her bullshit, you get into her bullshit, you spend a lot of time analyzing her bullshit.

You are still trying to re-glue this marriage that she shattered to pieces, and it appears you are doing 99% of the real work.

I don't blame you for that or cast any stones, I am not trying to bring you down. People ruminate for years about this kind of stuff. It is extremely difficult.

Also, I am not just talking about your posts but the fact that you are interacting with her to the nth degree and indulging her bullshit.

The historical evidence is that your wife's level of attachment was never as strong as yours, and it still isn't even close.

What you describe as her progress looks like smoke and mirrors from where I stand. I don't see her changing because I don't think she really wants to change.

Eventually you will have to decide if the person she is, because she does not appear to be profoundly changing to any significant degree, is somebody you can stay attached too, or you will have to detach.

For real.

Good luck Dr. S.

Do you have friends IRL that you discuss this with or is it just your counselors and this forum?

Nah, not discussing this at all in my real life outside of therapy or with my WW directly.

I had conversations with my family when I told them what I was dealing with, but did not follow up. The reason is two fold: one, I enjoy writing out my thoughts as it helps me resolve them, so I might as well kill two birds with one stone and do that on these boards; and two, I value this community's feedback more than my family, who has various conflicts of interest in being authentic.

Now, sassy comebacks aside, my point is... you are very obviously not detached from your wife. You react to her bullshit, you get into her bullshit, you spend a lot of time analyzing her bullshit.

You are still trying to re-glue this marriage that she shattered to pieces, and it appears you are doing 99% of the real work.

I don't blame you for that or cast any stones, I am not trying to bring you down. People ruminate for years about this kind of stuff. It is extremely difficult.

Also, I am not just talking about your posts but the fact that you are interacting with her to the nth degree and indulging her bullshit.

The historical evidence is that your wife's level of attachment was never as strong as yours, and it still isn't even close.

What you describe as her progress looks like smoke and mirrors from where I stand. I don't see her changing because I don't think she really wants to change.

Eventually you will have to decide if the person she is, because she does not appear to be profoundly changing to any significant degree, is somebody you can stay attached too, or you will have to detach.

For real.

Good luck Dr. S.

I suppose the problem then is I have no clear idea of what I want her to do that she's not doing. I agree I'm putting more effort and thought into our marriage than she is, but I put more effort and thought into everything I do than she does. Holding her to that standard now doesn't feel very useful.

You're right about where this is heading though. If it's all smoke and mirrors from her, the progress I think I'm seeing will cease. She can't keep up an illusion of progress. If she's trying, I'll keep seeing the change in her until the critical issues are long gone.

And ultimately, one thing that hasn't changed since March is that I'm very conscious of how devastating a divorce would be for our children and I'm committed to giving my wife the opportunity to prove she can fight for me and this marriage. We're nearly five months out and I gave this a minimum of six months, so we'll see what August and Sept. bring.

Of note, we are planning a short vacation just the two of us at the end of the month. It'll be interesting to see what happens leading up to that and how the trip goes.

I have to say I think just because the posts are so voluminous that people forget that you are still less than six months out. Many of us have the benefit of perspective only because we have been a little further in the journey.

For both you and your wife there hasn’t been time for there to be deep perspective. Honestly it’s normal for most everything to be reactive at this point. I do think you have to keep moving away from that. However, you both know way more logically than you did but the integration of concepts, new ways of thinking, behaviors for both are still a ways down the road. Most bs don’t even leave the shock stage until about this point. Most ws’s are still disoriented over all the brainwashing they have done to themselves and have a lifetime of thoughts and behaviors that hasn’t served them very well. That’s going to take a lot of time and effort to sort out.

TBH, I have to say Mrs. SL has done far more than I had at this point in my own timeline so I don’t think we are totally to a point any conclusions can be made on where the two of you are going.

I am not sure our stated expectations of you are reasonable. They are based on the number of posts and that you write way more measured than you are feeling. I know how that can be because people kept telling me at 6 months out from my h’s affair that they weren’t hearing emotion, that I was taking too much responsibility. Were they right? Yes. But was it helpful, no. I was still in shock and some days it felt like it couldn’t be happening. We all spend a lot of time looking at our old normal and not realizing it’s not going to return. We are in so much pain that we just reach at anything and everything as a sign things are going to get better. And they might, they might not. I see that is in your awareness.

We are only at the capacity we are at and while I am sure our posts help guide, I am utterly convinced we can’t save you so quickly from an ingrained way of being. Change takes time.

We all want to alleviate each other from the pitfalls we found and save each other time and pain from the pitfalls we suffered but I don’t think that’s realistic.

Don’t get me wrong, I think all our intentions are good, but it’s almost getting to where most so many posts are just frustrated that you aren’t "listening". (I am guilty here as well, you do have a tendency to argue and dismiss often) However, Things only resonate when you have the capacity to see them for yourself. That first year is a lot of processing, only so much goes through at a time. It’s true for both bs and ws.

You and your wife clearly have had a codependent relationship with pretty blurry and messy boundaries on both sides. Detachment requires lots of boundaries, and that is a learning process. Maybe as you move through the different aspects of grief that will happen over time. We should certainly keep encouraging it, describing how we did it, etc. Denial, bargaining, shock are a big part of that first year. Grief is not linear.

You can’t try hard and not have a lot of failing. Each failure brings us to proceeding more intelligently. So if you are failing but keep getting up there is a lot to be said for that type of resilience.

Just some thoughts, everyone will proceed with posting how they wish of course and things will shine a light as you move through.

I just don’t find anything about your story to be very extraordinary for what we have seen on this this site regularly. It’s actually pretty middle of the road. I don’t mean that it’s any less painful, but the forum’s reactions are a little more like it’s something different. More it’s just you are a prolific poster with some controversial things to say. It makes it seem like everything has been exhausted when in reality the two of you are just getting started.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:14 PM, Tuesday, August 9th]

Why do you feel I'm not detached

Of note, we are planning a short vacation just the two of us at the end of the month.

Well. Here's a prime example.

How many vacations/trips/date nights have you had in the last few month since dday? Not including the vacation with the kids, there have been quite a few. Especially considering she has yet to reach remorse. It's a version of the pick me dance.

I also agree with faithfulman. Every word.

You say you see progress. Because now,instead of it taking weeks for her to realize she acted abusively, it now only takes hours, or days.

The point is, she is still abusive. Still lying. Still cruel.

I don't believe she thinks you will possibly file for divorce. She has been doing this push and pull act for months. And,each time, rather than see it for what it is, you call it progress. She blows up,is absolutely horrible to you, stands her ground,then eventually tells you she's sorry,she doesn't know why she did it,but she gets it now. She's "devastated" every time. Yet, she allows it to happen again. And,you are teaching her that as long as she is "devastated," and says the right words in her apology, that you will stay and give her another chance to hurt you.

She knows you won't file. That you are willing to tolerate the enormous amount of disrespect she has shown you AFTER dday,because you don't want to divorce. She hangs her hat on it.

You say you've detached,yet..

I'm putting more effort and thought into our marriage than she is,

More proof that you aren't detaching. And that you've largely ignored the advice to sit back,watch her actions, and see if she is willing to do the heavy lifting.

but I put more effort and thought into everything I do than she does. Holding her to that standard now doesn't feel very useful.

This is part of the work she should be doing. She should be putting in more effort than you. WAY MORE. And,absolutely you should be holding her to a higher standard. That's what every BS should be doing, at this stage,with a WS who claims they want R.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:22 PM, Tuesday, August 9th]

Just curious - who’s idea was it to take the upcoming short vacation?

Dr S,

I've been following the thread now for 100+ pages, and I keep seeing loops in the themes you have set for yourself and your WW, as well as the advice you have been getting based on your own accounts.

Concurrently, you have been referred to the saga of Mr. and Mrs. Walloped more often than not in your earlier threads, and so I did a little bit of my own homework. Here is a piece of advice that Walloped got from Hurting Big Time in the heat of the battle after D-day, and I think the gist of point No. 6 is especially applicable, as are the first few (though some of it was particular to Walloped' s sitch).

(On Topic violation, do not pull quotes from other threads for discussion).

Mods and authorities... please forgive if some major guidelines have been broken, I will remove the quotes if necessary.

ETA: Is it possible to remove/delete this reply if it no longer serves the purpose of the thread?

[This message edited by toota at 4:19 AM, Wednesday, August 10th]

I have to say I think just because the posts are so voluminous that people forget that you are still less than six months out. Many of us have the benefit of perspective only because we have been a little further in the journey.

For both you and your wife there hasn’t been time for there to be deep perspective. Honestly it’s normal for most everything to be reactive at this point. I do think you have to keep moving away from that. However, you both know way more logically than you did but the integration of concepts, new ways of thinking, behaviors for both are still a ways down the road. Most bs don’t even leave the shock stage until about this point. Most ws’s are still disoriented over all the brainwashing they have done to themselves and have a lifetime of thoughts and behaviors that hasn’t served them very well. That’s going to take a lot of time and effort to sort out.

TBH, I have to say Mrs. SL has done far more than I had at this point in my own timeline so I don’t think we are totally to a point any conclusions can be made on where the two of you are going.

I am not sure our stated expectations of you are reasonable. They are based on the number of posts and that you write way more measured than you are feeling. I know how that can be because people kept telling me at 6 months out from my h’s affair that they weren’t hearing emotion, that I was taking too much responsibility. Were they right? Yes. But was it helpful, no. I was still in shock and some days it felt like it couldn’t be happening. We all spend a lot of time looking at our old normal and not realizing it’s not going to return. We are in so much pain that we just reach at anything and everything as a sign things are going to get better. And they might, they might not. I see that is in your awareness.

We are only at the capacity we are at and while I am sure our posts help guide, I am utterly convinced we can’t save you so quickly from an ingrained way of being. Change takes time.

We all want to alleviate each other from the pitfalls we found and save each other time and pain from the pitfalls we suffered but I don’t think that’s realistic.

Don’t get me wrong, I think all our intentions are good, but it’s almost getting to where most so many posts are just frustrated that you aren’t "listening". (I am guilty here as well, you do have a tendency to argue and dismiss often) However, Things only resonate when you have the capacity to see them for yourself. That first year is a lot of processing, only so much goes through at a time. It’s true for both bs and ws.

You and your wife clearly have had a codependent relationship with pretty blurry and messy boundaries on both sides. Detachment requires lots of boundaries, and that is a learning process. Maybe as you move through the different aspects of grief that will happen over time. We should certainly keep encouraging it, describing how we did it, etc. Denial, bargaining, shock are a big part of that first year. Grief is not linear.

You can’t try hard and not have a lot of failing. Each failure brings us to proceeding more intelligently. So if you are failing but keep getting up there is a lot to be said for that type of resilience.

Just some thoughts, everyone will proceed with posting how they wish of course and things will shine a light as you move through.

I just don’t find anything about your story to be very extraordinary for what we have seen on this this site regularly. It’s actually pretty middle of the road. I don’t mean that it’s any less painful, but the forum’s reactions are a little more like it’s something different. More it’s just you are a prolific poster with some controversial things to say. It makes it seem like everything has been exhausted when in reality the two of you are just getting started.

I suspect you're right across the board. Quite honestly, my biggest frustration with many responses here over the months is my lack of understanding in how to make much of the advice actionable. I am argumentative, but it's not to be difficult, it's to press the point until I understand it. Is it a good idea or not?

The advice wave today has been to detach. Ok, why? Why is that the response today? Presumably because of Thursday.

I've explored it--I've detached in the past and then I've reconnected. I found complete detachment less productive--instead, as I've understood my triggers and her poor behavior spirals, I've micro-dosed my detachment to meet my needs. After Thursday, perhaps I should have gone full detachment again--perhaps I should do that now. Maybe I should have her move out--that was on the table on Friday.

I don't know if the relationship is going to make it, but I do know I gave it the six months--so calling it quits before then would require more damage than she's inflicted. I have made it clear that Thursday was unacceptable and there's a zero tolerance going forward--that's something I should have made clear before, but here we are.

She's spent five days largely being fine and considerate; I'm still upset.

The only thing of note negative I've noticed is she's ramping up her victimization with work issues again. Every day I'm listening to her complain about work issues--that's something I had cut off a few years ago and she cited it as cause for the emotional divide. So now I'm measuring my response; I may just cut her off again because I don't have the bandwidth to concern myself with her problems right now.

Other than that, the issue is on me healing from her latest wound. I have been "detached" these last few days. I know I've been cold and quiet around her and I know it's bothering her. It's not purposeful; I'm just feeling down.

As Steven mentioned the other day, I think the death by 1,000 cuts is very plausible here. I can see it ending that way. But right now, today, there's no great incident. She's upstairs putting the kids to bed; I'm at my computer writing. I just made us all dinner. It's just another day.

Will she hurt me again tomorrow? Seems very possible. Will it be the last time I let her? That also seems possible.

How many vacations/trips/date nights have you had in the last few month since dday? Not including the vacation with the kids, there have been quite a few. Especially considering she has yet to reach remorse. It's a version of the pick me dance.

We did Disney World as a family in June and an overnight for her bday in May. We have had 3-4 date nights since March. I bought dinner/hotel for her bday, but that was my gift; all the other meals have been split on our joint-card or paid for by her.

FWIW, I see it the opposite--she's largely planning the dinners; she's courting me at every turn with kindness, gifts; offering sex and BJs daily, etc. I don't know that I've been all that fun for her to be around if we're being honest here--she's making the effort, as she should.

You say you see progress. Because now,instead of it taking weeks for her to realize she acted abusively, it now only takes hours, or days.

The point is, she is still abusive. Still lying. Still cruel.

Well, it's also in frequency. Prior to the Thursday incident, the last incident we had was on July 13--the day before I left for Italy. So over the last month, we've had two. We had about a hundred between March and July.

So sure, the goal is for her to stop hurting me ever, but the exponential reduction in frequency and the exponential realizatino of what she's done on her end *feel* like progress. Do you think I'm wrong in that outlook?

I don't believe she thinks you will possibly file for divorce. She has been doing this push and pull act for months. And,each time, rather than see it for what it is, you call it progress. She blows up,is absolutely horrible to you, stands her ground,then eventually tells you she's sorry,she doesn't know why she did it,but she gets it now. She's "devastated" every time. Yet, she allows it to happen again. And,you are teaching her that as long as she is "devastated," and says the right words in her apology, that you will stay and give her another chance to hurt you.

She knows you won't file. That you are willing to tolerate the enormous amount of disrespect she has shown you AFTER dday,because you don't want to divorce. She hangs her hat on it.

Well, I was confident she thought we were through a couple of times. There was a difference in how the fights ended than the usual stuff. I think you're probably right that she feels comfortable now.

Does it matter though? Her opinion on me filing as no bearing on me filing. If she hurts me badly and I decide to end things, does her readiness for it matter?

This is part of the work she should be doing. She should be putting in more effort than you. WAY MORE. And,absolutely you should be holding her to a higher standard. That's what every BS should be doing, at this stage,with a WS who claims they want R.

Ok, so let's unpack what you're writing here. We all know what she's doing: three therapy sessions a week and reading self-help books. She's taking time daily to make me feel loved, checking in on me and offering to do the lion's share of responsibilities with kids to take bourdons off of me. Also offering lots of sex. That's the good.

The bad is when she hurts me by saying and doing really stupid and mean-spiriting shit.

Those "spells" can last up to an hour or so and they blow my mind when they happen. That's what she should be working to stop entirely. She hasn't--instead she's slowed them down and recovers from them quicker.

What should I do differently today?

The only thing of note negative I've noticed is she's ramping up her victimization with work issues again. Every day I'm listening to her complain about work issues--that's something I had cut off a few years ago and she cited it as cause for the emotional divide. So now I'm measuring my response; I may just cut her off again because I don't have the bandwidth to concern myself with her problems right now.

Yes this is a good example of where you are working in the relationship and trying to fix her paper cut complaints rather than keeping it to the elephant in the room.

Fixing anything about the pre A marriage this early is not advisable. You will resent it and it takes focus off of what she needs to be working on. Work is work, she can compartmentalize that like everyone else. Honestly when she starts working on herself she will likely fix letting the drama of work effect her. And let go of her victim mentality. That’s why you don’t work on that right now. It’s a waste of your time. It is not your job to support her work sagas before, now, or in the future.

That’s a good example of detaching and boundaries.

Will she hurt me again tomorrow? Seems very possible. Will it be the last time I let her? That also seems possible.

I think it’s more the damage has been done. She has to find away if not adding to the damage. Detachment would be hard for a marriage that had very grey boundaries the entire time. It’s a matter of where you end and another person begins. The problem with being so invested in her needs, tantrums, etc is that you are not protecting yourself from further hurts.

You want the marriage to continue, and honestly I think recovery is a year minimum (not disagreeing with starting with a six month decision point - just saying the following six months will just be dealing with different stages), but I agree it gets murky. It’s hard not to want to work on the relationship but until there is enough work done then all you are doing is trying to replicate and better your old relationship. You are dealing with the same person.

Rather if you wait until she has mastered more concepts the job of fixing the relationship is easier. The issues she has with your preexisting relationship may change once she has a larger perspective. Just like the work stuff may be put more into perspective so will the ways she feels she was victimized in your marriage. It took me a while to see my accountability in the structure of our marriage.

It’s also hard to because at some point you guys do have to practice what you are learning. But for right now no, her problems at work are her problems. Disappointing her parents is her problem. It’s good she is watching and trying and that’s what needs to happen for a long time. Before you make effort. Otherwise you are playing the pick me dance.

The affair was a bullet wound, you are still bleeding. You not listening to her work problems or not wanting to have her parents stay those are paper cuts. I don’t know if that’s actionable or not, but it’s difficult for us to be prescriptive from 100,000 feet.

I only know the other stuff because at one time I too was a many times a day every day poster. People forget you are new as a result. Also there is always going to be projection from our own individual situations.

Until you learn more about boundaries, and figure out implementing them you will struggle. And honestly she will take any wiggle room she can with that right now too. I know you want closeness and intimacy and for your life not to change too much, but it has. Trauma of this nature is a very difficult thing to heal from.

She should be the one putting in the most effort. Your job is to heal. That is your only job in a detachment situation.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:49 AM, Wednesday, August 10th]

Just curious - who’s idea was it to take the upcoming short vacation?

My mom is taking the kids for six nights at the end of August before school starts, so we have a week at home with no kids. We started talking about what we'd do and exploring some local options to maybe do a night or two. I wasn't enthused about any of the ones she found. My sister has gone to Charleston a few times and loves it, so that popped into my head and I suggested that; my WW loved the suggestion and we planned that trip together.

I almost cancelled the trip after what happened on Thursday, but held back, deciding to wait to see how the month goes (I don't have to cancel until two days before anyway).

Dr S,

I've been following the thread now for 100+ pages, and I keep seeing loops in the themes you have set for yourself and your WW, as well as the advice you have been getting based on your own accounts.

Concurrently, you have been referred to the saga of Mr. and Mrs. Walloped more often than not in your earlier threads, and so I did a little bit of my own homework. Here is a piece of advice that Walloped got from Hurting Big Time in the heat of the battle after D-day, and I think the gist of point No. 6 is especially applicable, as are the first few (though some of it was particular to Walloped' s sitch).

I recall reading that a few months ago. It's great advice. Thanks for re-upping it.

But for right now no, her problems at work are her problems. Disappointing her parents is her problem. It’s good she is watching and trying and that’s what needs to happen for a long time. Before you make effort. Otherwise you are playing the pick me dance.

The affair was a bullet wound, you are still bleeding. You not listening to her work problems or not wanting to have her parents stay those are paper cuts.

Yes, I suspect not only is that not clear to her, but me telling her that repeatedly falls on deaf ears. Ultimately, her lack of empathy is not gone; I’m just not allowing her to keep hurting me hourly because of it. It still means she doesn’t understand the pain I’m in though; the result is her not understanding why she can’t share her problems with me.

There’s a selfishness to it that I can’t understand how she can’t understand.