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I remember being at the same exact point. I was every bit as bad in fact maybe worse.

My husband is actually very good at boundaries and that was actually helpful to me in the long run. Was it frustrating and scary to me? Yes. Was it worse than what I did to him? Not even in the same category.

At times when I was being obtuse he just wanted away and let me figure it out. There was no conversation, he simply walked away. He would interact with me on other things as needed but didn’t it have any deep conversation. I would figure it out come back and tell him what I figured out. He would acknowledge that and we would continue.

He was never abusive or yelled or called me anything but he didn’t bqbysit me when I was an idiot.he didn’t try and teach me, he didn’t try to resolve it. Sink or swim. But about six months out we did go on trips here and there and left things alone as much as we could during those short breaks. I think they were helpful.

What should I do differently today?

Detaching.

Read the 180 in the Healing Library.

[This message edited by HellFire at 1:11 AM, Wednesday, August 10th]

FWIW, I see it the opposite--she's largely planning the dinners; she's courting me at every turn with kindness, gifts; offering sex and BJs daily, etc. I don't know that I've been all that fun for her to be around if we're being honest here--she's making the effort, as she should.

She's taking you out to dinner,love bombing, and sex bombing you.

If you thinks that's all the effort she needs to be putting in,then ok.

the exponential reduction in frequency and the exponential realizatino of what she's done on her end *feel* like progress. Do you think I'm wrong in that outlook?

When she says the things she's said,it's emotionally abusive.

If I were to tell you that for 3 months,my husband beat me 100 times, BUT..in the last month,he's only beat me twice, and that feels like progress...what would you say?

I don’t disagree with you hellfire but she is doing what he is asking with the lovebombimg and sex bombing.

I understand what you don’t like about it. I did it too and it’s manipulative. But it’s the kind where she is doing what she knows how to right now with the intention of saving the marriage. If she keeps reading, going to IC, and practicing she will develop other things to stick around for.

I would actually say if she wasn’t love bombing or sex bombing him at this point in their R, I personally would wonder why she isn’t doing what she can with what she has available to her. She doesn’t have the other skills or insight yet.

I would also be concerned if that was all amshe was doing and not trying to learn the other things. She is doing both and honestly I am not sure what else she would know to do other than try and do everything he is asking of her.

I am not sure what else she would know to do other than try and do everything he is asking of her.

This is part of the problem.

A WS who wants R is proactive. They don't wait to be told what to do by their BS.

She would know what she should be doing, had she utilized this site, to her advantage. You know what an invaluable resource SI is for a WS. Rather than try to learn what she should be doing,she weaponized the support her husband was/is receiving.

If she doesn't know what else she should be doing, it's because she is choosing not to learn.

She's taking you out to dinner,love bombing, and sex bombing you.

If you thinks that's all the effort she needs to be putting in,then ok.

Hellfire, I don’t understand the intent in this post; you know that’s not all she is doing.

I agree with your other point on if this was physical abuse instead of emotional abuse. I don’t have a logical response to it. It fundamentally makes no sense to me that I tolerated it for so long.

All I can note is that we had another conversation tonight and I made it clear that if it happens again, she is moving out—at a minimum.

There’s no more grey area or confused expectations of consequence.

I would actually say if she wasn’t love bombing or sex bombing him at this point in their R, I personally would wonder why she isn’t doing what she can with what she has available to her.

Yes, her increased interest/initiations in sex was a requirement of us even remaining in limbo. Without it, I’d have been gone already.

Hellfire- I disagree there only because we have seen his requirements for R. It is on the list.

It was on my husbands list too. More initiating, more sex, more pursuing him.

Like I said if she was ONLY doing those things it would be a bad sign but she is going out and seeking information and therapy for her issues on top of that. She is by his accounts taking many other initiatives.

I have seen very few BH’s who didn’t want to see more sex as the main proof of pursuit at least in the beginning of R. We both know that’s a bit of a red herring because it doesn’t prove anything. But it does at least prove she is trying to meet his requirements.

If he was in here saying she isn’t doing what he asked (initiate more provid more quality sex, etc) we would be bashing her in that direction.

So I am sorry I can’t fault her for that. It kept my marriage going too when I was sorting out my shit. I If she wasn’t doing the other stuff then I would think of it more as an outright malicious manipulation. But she has already seen that he doesn’t react well when he is not getting the sex part.

Also sorry I didn’t see he responded at the same time until I posted.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:07 AM, Wednesday, August 10th]

What makes you say that? I don’t think she had any empathy for AP either. I don’t think she has empathy for anyone.

Sorry, have been down with the flu bug.

When I read your response, and the responses of other posters, I re-examined my train a=of thought, and agree that your WW did not have any empathy for her AP. In fact, it just reaffirms the self-entitled thinking your WW seems to have.

The only person she looks out for, is herself. As long as the other party is of use to her, she will do what needs to be done to keep them in her life. Others are disposable if they are no longer of use to her.

But she has already seen that he doesn’t react well when he is not getting the sex part.

Interesting framing.

I understand your perspective: her giving me sex now doesn’t mean anything because it’s not authentic; she is doing it because it’s my requirement. So if she enjoys it or not, it’s besides the point.

You’re correct.

But now what? What is the difference?

Her ask is that I be more open to her emotionally when she shares her day/problems. I’ve been doing that. I still don’t really give a shit—most of what she shares are the issues of an entitled child. I listen—perhaps offer some positive advice—and that’s it.

Now, I’d rather not be listening to it with such frequency—it’s maddening to see someone develop so many easily solvable problems and do nothing about it—but I do offer genuine advice in the end.

I see it the same as sex: she’s giving me what I want because I want it. And she may even enjoy it in the process (seems like she has the better end of the deal).

Perhaps I’m jaded, but those both seem reasonable. During the affair she complained about her life to AP for a bit and then gave him oral sex or sexted lol. We have just swapped the people in the dynamic of the exchange.

So when you focus in on it like that, it’s easy to think I must be insane to want any involvement with such a relationship in my future. But the point I’ve been trying to make for months here is that her complaining about her day and us having sex is a fraction of our life together. To use either as markers for our R or D would be the height of irresponsibility to our children and the life we have built.

So if she has to blow me a bit more and I have have to listen to her vent about nonsense, so be it. We both can put our big boy and girl shoes on and deal with it.

And in the process of faking that authenticity, perhaps we arrive at a better place moving forward—maybe those acts become authentic in time. That’s a best case scenario.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 4:00 PM, Wednesday, August 10th]

Sorry, have been down with the flu bug.

When I read your response, and the responses of other posters, I re-examined my train a=of thought, and agree that your WW did not have any empathy for her AP. In fact, it just reaffirms the self-entitled thinking your WW seems to have.

The only person she looks out for, is herself. As long as the other party is of use to her, she will do what needs to be done to keep them in her life. Others are disposable if they are no longer of use to her.

I’m sorry you’re sick—our whole family got hit by it last week as well. I *still* have a lingering cough.

And I agree with you.

I do think it’s interesting because on the surface she is a sympathetic and compassionate person. I don’t think I ever realized the lack of depth to those feelings she’d express though. Going through these last few months, I can see how she genuinely has no idea how to relate to how hurt I have been. She can see I’m sad and tell me she’s sorry that I’m sad, but that’s it.

I do think she had a breakthrough of sorts at the end of the affair, before I caught her.

On Feb. 24–her second hotel stay with AP—Russia invaded Ukraine.

My brother-in-law is Ukrainian and my family got involved with some humanitarian support. A few of them flew out and spent time in Hungary and western Ukraine—I almost went as well, but the logistics didn’t work out.

On March 2, before they left, (also the last time she saw AP; though she didn’t know at the time obviously), she sent my family a group text of some Ukraine-colored balloons she saw at the train station in the morning. She had an emotional breakdown that she told me about later and it lasted a few days (coincidentally, also timed right before her period…)

She was devastated thinking about how me and my family were preparing to go into Ukraine to help people and contrasting that to how horribly selfish she was being in the affair. It gave her this very real glimpse into her soul and she felt entirely empty.

I didn’t pay it much mind as it passed in a few days and if I hadn’t caught her, she’d likely still be fucking AP right now—so they were largely empty tears. But I bring it up to point out that she very much wants to be a better person, but has often been too weak to make the changes required. Now she is being pushed into making a change and I can see improvements in her.

Yes, as Hellfire points out, she is still capable of hurting me and that is horrible, but she is growing as a person. She is becoming wiser and more measured in her thinking. No matter what happens with our marriage, she is going to be a better person for the rest of her life; a better mother to our children.

FWIW, I see it the opposite--she's largely planning the dinners; she's courting me at every turn with kindness, gifts; offering sex and BJs daily, etc. I don't know that I've been all that fun for her to be around if we're being honest here--she's making the effort, as she should.

you know that’s not all she is doing.

This is why I said what I said.

Those are the things you specifically mentioned. I assumed those things are the most important things to you.

She's going to IC. And MC.

She's still playing the victim. Still lying. Still being cruel. Still being verbally abusive. Still wearing a mask.

You said you were giving this a few more months. I hope she "gets it." I hope she learns to be proactive. I hope she stops hurting you.

[This message edited by HellFire at 3:22 PM, Wednesday, August 10th]

You supporting her is not equivalent. The WS doesn’t get to have requirements at this point. You work on the relationship when she has met your standards in being someone you can reconcile with.

Until then she is earning that chance. You do not need to earn anything. Once you are in R, then you work together to fix the marriage. Earning is not punitive, she has shown you every reason to divorce her. She now needs to show you reasons you shouldn’t. Not vice versa.

Again it’s the difference between paper it’s and being in critical condition. This is part of what we mean by detachment.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:39 PM, Wednesday, August 10th]

Oh and don’t get me wrong, I did enjoy most of the sex at that point. My framing is that it wasn’t authentic that I was initiating so much. Not that I don’t still initiate quite a bit. But me initiating day after day while being numb and depressed proved nothing other than I really wanted my marriage. But it’s manipulation in many ways because it dangles a carrot that will not stay at the same intensity because I believe it’s unrealistic.

Eventually when we started working on our relationship, then we leveled out a bit in the requirements. He began initiating again about one third to half the time. We leveled off to 3-5 times a week, a level we are both happy with.

But I don’t think he was under the impression that would be forever.

The ws earns getting to a place the bs will consider R. Then as you R it’s less about requirements and more building a new marriage together. Right now you do not need to play pick me with her. That’s an unfair ask of someone who has been traumatized and it’s going to lead you to getting those 1000 cuts way faster. There will not be a marriage to R. You have to focus completely on what you need right now.

Right now you do not need to play pick me with her.

That's been in the back of my mind since March, but I don't want to be difficult and disagreeable just because I'm justified in doing so.

Listening to her for 5-10 minutes tell me about her day, in the long run, feels largely harmless. It also feels like the right thing to do.

Perhaps it's harming her in the long-run though as she's still leaning on me as a crutch, but I'm trying to think of it only through my lens, not hers.

I understand the score: she fucked up and now I have all the leverage--but that doesn't interest me all that much. Prior to the affair, I was still working on improving myself; my disagreeableness and often anti-social tendencies. So something like listening to her talk about her day, while deathly uninteresting to me, seems to be a perfect example of something I should be making an effort to do in my life--just connecting more with everyone, not just her.

I recall in one of my first posts on this site writing about how I liked the idea of one day being able to forgive her--it felt like the enlightened path. As you poignantly pointed out once: your husband forgiving you was the greatest display of love you ever saw. I *want* to feel like that path is right for me because it just seems like an objectively more evolved approach to my life experience. I want to give her every opportunity to allow me to take that path.

But where I am now, my grace period is rapidly closing and another incident like last week will likely end the marriage. I'm confident she understands that. So it's really on her to prove to me she can control her emotional mechanisms and not be abusive again as we navigate limbo.

That's been in the back of my mind since March, but I don't want to be difficult and disagreeable just because I'm justified in doing so.

This is not about punishment. This is about bandwidth. There is no reason to work on the relationship until considerable change has been done on her part.

It’s also in her best interests because you are getting tired. The bandwidth has to be completely on you working on your own healing.

I don’t condone or peddle punishment. That’s serving no one.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:03 PM, Wednesday, August 10th]

This is not about punishment. This is about bandwidth.

I told her that in the conversation I had with her last night--the issue on my end is bandwidth.

There have been moments this week--with me hurt from what happened on Thursday--that listening to her complain about her issues has felt like a knife in my skull.

I used her work issues and parent issues as examples; though obviously the parents one was the major problem because not only was she unjustly angry with me about it, she felt justified to punish and hurt me due to that anger. It's all her warped entitlement.

But I don't want to dwell on it either. I woke up this morning seemingly happy for the first time in six days. Her period is over today and we discussed having sex tonight, so perhaps that helps as well.

I can see a path ahead where we build on positive days and have a good vacation at the end of the month. I also see a path where she moves out next week after being callous and thoughtless again. It's all very strange.

If you continue to work on the relationship and appeasing her at this point it’s going to lead where you are saying. It’s too exhausting and also keeps underlining a lot of unattractive things about her that is not going to help.

You work on healing. She works on healing and showing you progress (which I agree with you she has made progress. She has a long ways to go though), then you work on the relationship with the woman you deserve. You also will be better for her in the long run too because you will be self aware and stronger in areas you aren’t right now.

I fully support everything HO is saying. Personally I think she’s hitting every mark.

The only piece I keep harping on and the aspect that I’m not sure you are fully getting (but in fairness, this is also a process and I think you are doing well)….the focusing on yourself.

I think at times that you see this aspect as an either-or, like somehow your marriage (or divorce) is the pivotal piece.

I don’t view it that way. I see it as more the thing you are doing WHILE your wife figures out (or not) her shit. This perspective/focus is how you "win" no matter the outcome of your marriage or what your wife does/doesn’t do. I think the added benefit in your case is that it also takes some of the immediate pressure off you (with making the D or R decision)…and it takes some pressure off your wife.

There’s such a subtle shift that it’s hard to explain but when it’s made the answer to R or D doesn’t come as a result of your wife or her behavior…it comes as a result of your own internal growth. And the events that happen on a day-to-day basis become less about "on base hits vs strike-outs" (score-keeping of the marriage) and more about catalysts and road signs of where you are in your own progress. There’s a world of difference between "my wife did this and she needs to stop lest we get a divorce" and "my wife did this and I want to look deeper at what this is triggering in me and why I feel it’s so fundamental to my well-being". I just don’t feel that we are ever getting to the deeper stuff. I also think this is one reason why you have such a divide in your responses; Everybody is following the bouncing ball of your daily ups and downs *in the marriage*.

I do wonder if you are subconsciously using the day-to-day ups and downs (and subsequently the responses they are generating) as a distraction/avoidance of your own deeper issues. Again, I see your progress in this area so I don’t want that to be lost in my point. I just don’t know that you’ve made your own growth the *priority* - and that is where/when/how this shift happens.