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Your last post was one of the most introspective posts, and would like to think that your absence from SI for quite a few days played a large part in that.

As I had recommended, it is sometimes good to back off for a while. Not one or two days, but about a week or so. It allows the mind to ruminate on what was discussed, without adding more info/data.

What you seemed to have been doing is 'rushing' your thinking. Always wanting more info/input/discussions, like you wanted to avoid actually sitting down and thinking about things, slowly sifting through the many topics. Almost like you were trying to distract yourself (?).

With regards to your in-laws visit, I think you took offense at how your WW worded things. She took the sneaky way first, asking when you would be in the office, instead of coming to you straight and be truthful right from the get-go.

Then the phrasing of 'more convenient' could have put you on edge (rightly so), by getting you out of the house made it more 'convenient' to them, and not you. After all, they are the ones who betrayed you, why should you make things more 'convenient' to suit their purposes? They should be the ones that needs to work around your schedule.... right?

Well, lets re-phrase what your WW could have said instead:
'Dr.S, my parents would like to visit the kids, and since they are not staying in the house, would you be okay for them to come over and visit, or should I take the kids to the hotel to visit?'

Would you have been more at ease with this? Am guessing that she had no 'bad' intentions when she approached you about her parents visit, but the way she phrased it possibly triggered you, as it was manipulative.

Might be something both you and your WW could discuss. How your communication styles may have to evolve to avoid building resentments.

Regarding the conversation with staff…

Private Messages are just that…private. They are not to be discussed on the boards.

Encouraging a member to go against staff action is also not recommended, particularly when context and details are removed.

Doc,

I don’t see anything insidious about your wife wanting to see her parents.

My guess is she loves them and misses them.

You getting in the way of her seeing her parents may seem like a punishment to her, or to put it another way, how does pushing her parents away help the relationship heal?

Your MIL may be all that you say and worse — that’s still your wife’s mother.

My MIL is horrible as well, will never change and has never been an ally to my M. But my wife can’t NOT see her mother because of me.

Going back to my other contributions to the thread, no harm in being done with the M. Wanting to get away from toxic ANYTHING after betrayal makes perfect sense to me, I felt that way too.

However, if you’re still considering offering your M a chance, then aim for it.

Your wife could have approached it better, yet, you’ve offered your preference for conflict. Maybe your wife is trying to find a way AROUND the conflict, and thus the poor communication?

Ultimately, I think all BS have one foot out the door while trying to figure out their future. We should be ready to pack up at a moment’s notice, there are no rules requiring we offer our spouses a final chance. Having stated the obvious, the key to keeping and rebuilding the M is finding some olive branches along the way that are least expected (or maybe even deserved) along the way.

That shame spiral your wife is in, she may need a human or two who still see some good in her. If that’s not you right now, some time with her parents may help a tiny bit.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 3:13 PM, Thursday, September 15th]

Your home should be your safe place.

We always tell BS it's ok to cut out people who aren't friends of the marriage. It's actually encouraged. Your in-laws are not friends of your marriage. It would be ok for you to tell your wife to cut them out. However, I know that's not what you will do.

Maybe,eventually, one day you will feel more comfortable being around them. Hopefully you will. But, right now? It's too soon. The wound is still fresh. You had a short text exchange with your father in law,and it caused you to be upset for the rest of your day. Having them in your home would be too much for you. Right now.

It's ok for her to take the kids to see them,but it isn't good for you to have them in your home..in your safe place.

Your wife needs to be totally understanding and accommodating. She caused this. All of it. Yes, the parents are responsible for their words. But their daughter couldn't stop telling them how horrible you were. This is all on her. You shouldn't feel bad for telling her they are not welcome in the home.

[This message edited by HellFire at 4:54 PM, Thursday, September 15th]

Express yourself in whatever way that helps you best.

Posting as a mod: every post will either adhere to guidelines or be subject to sanctions. Every post.

Posting as a member: If a post violates guidelines, it should be sanctioned. I hope even mods are held to that standard.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 12:33 PM, Friday, September 16th]

DrS welcome back. Express yourself in whatever way that helps you best. And if it is examining your kink, so it be. People have the option of not reading your posts. You thrive best In debating so why change that. I see while you argue your point you are also receptive to ideas.
Carry on healing people are rooting for you

Thank you. It's good for me to now be aware of the potential harm though--at a minimum, I can flag the top of any post that may touch on those topics. It's certainly not my intention to inadvertently upset anyone (I do plenty of that directly!). I can also likely sanitize my writing a bit--much of the time I don't know where my posts are going to go until I write them.

About your in-laws - you should do exactly what you are comfortable with. If your WW doesn't like it, that is *her* problem. If it causes friction with them, that is *her* relationship to manage. The wound is still fresh. You are allowed to set boundaries and be free from their drama until you are ready to re-establish that relationship. Hopefully your MC will back you up if your WW wants to take issue with that. They're not comparable to your parents because your parents didn't help you torpedo your marriage and threaten your children's stability.

I think you struck upon something that hadn't occurred to me before. The comparison to my parents is interesting because I've come to blows with both of them over my lifetime. Several years ago, I almost dissolved my relationship with my father over his handling of a situation with my then two-year-old son. It was something both my wife and I agreed upon, but I was the one who took up the fight. Again, I don't fear conflict, so it was a situation that needed to be addressed to my satisfaction--and to the satisfaction of my wife.

In the current situation with my in-laws, it doesn't *feel* like my WW is on my side, protecting me. I have no doubt that my MIL feels all this drama is unnecessary--it was an indiscretion by her daughter and everyone should move on. It's offensive to me and to see my WW not stand up to her parents makes me feel vulnerable--or even worse, perhaps those words are seeping in and my WW agrees.

MY WW needs to establish that's she's all-in on this marriage and I currently don't always feel that way.

Your last post was one of the most introspective posts, and would like to think that your absence from SI for quite a few days played a large part in that.

As I had recommended, it is sometimes good to back off for a while. Not one or two days, but about a week or so. It allows the mind to ruminate on what was discussed, without adding more info/data.

What you seemed to have been doing is 'rushing' your thinking. Always wanting more info/input/discussions, like you wanted to avoid actually sitting down and thinking about things, slowly sifting through the many topics. Almost like you were trying to distract yourself (?).

I think you're right. I've been very focused on the advice from many posters to focus on myself and look inward. THe result has been the examination of my behavior in response to how I feel rather than an examination of how I feel, which often led to blaming external factors.

With regards to your in-laws visit, I think you took offense at how your WW worded things. She took the sneaky way first, asking when you would be in the office, instead of coming to you straight and be truthful right from the get-go.

Then the phrasing of 'more convenient' could have put you on edge (rightly so), by getting you out of the house made it more 'convenient' to them, and not you. After all, they are the ones who betrayed you, why should you make things more 'convenient' to suit their purposes? They should be the ones that needs to work around your schedule.... right?

Well, lets re-phrase what your WW could have said instead:
'Dr.S, my parents would like to visit the kids, and since they are not staying in the house, would you be okay for them to come over and visit, or should I take the kids to the hotel to visit?'

Would you have been more at ease with this? Am guessing that she had no 'bad' intentions when she approached you about her parents visit, but the way she phrased it possibly triggered you, as it was manipulative.

Might be something both you and your WW could discuss. How your communication styles may have to evolve to avoid building resentments.

I don't think that revised phrasing would have helped. If her parents visit our home again, it should be at my prompting, not hers. And I feel like if she was remorseful, that would be obvious to her. It's very clear to me that she's trying to walk a fine line--she doesn't want to disappoint her parents (principally her father), so she wants to push the envelope as far as she can to maintain peace of mind.

Regarding the conversation with staff…

Private Messages are just that…private. They are not to be discussed on the boards.

I want to apologize for how I handled that. The PM upset me and I wanted to write about it. I thought by not revealing the sender and not quoting the entire message, I was on safe ground. In retrospect, I should have reached out to the mod directly to receive consent before discussing it openly. FWIW, it did help me to write about it, but I've sent a direct apology to the mod for how I handled it.

However.

Encouraging a member to go against staff action is also not recommended, particularly when context and details are removed.

I'm bewildered by that statement. You're accusing me of misrepresenting the PM I received--I did not. As administrator, you've presumably seen the PM and know that; or you haven't seen the PM and you're making a reckless attack on my integrity. There's really no way for me to further respond, so I'm going to move on--I wrote about it and it helped me process how I respond to feelings of being hurt. It was helpful for me. Feel free to reach out directly via PM if there's more to discuss on the topic.

Doc,

I don’t see anything insidious about your wife wanting to see her parents.

My guess is she loves them and misses them.

You getting in the way of her seeing her parents may seem like a punishment to her, or to put it another way, how does pushing her parents away help the relationship heal?

Your MIL may be all that you say and worse — that’s still your wife’s mother.

My MIL is horrible as well, will never change and has never been an ally to my M. But my wife can’t NOT see her mother because of me.

Going back to my other contributions to the thread, no harm in being done with the M. Wanting to get away from toxic ANYTHING after betrayal makes perfect sense to me, I felt that way too.

However, if you’re still considering offering your M a chance, then aim for it.

Your wife could have approached it better, yet, you’ve offered your preference for conflict. Maybe your wife is trying to find a way AROUND the conflict, and thus the poor communication?

Ultimately, I think all BS have one foot out the door while trying to figure out their future. We should be ready to pack up at a moment’s notice, there are no rules requiring we offer our spouses a final chance. Having stated the obvious, the key to keeping and rebuilding the M is finding some olive branches along the way that are least expected (or maybe even deserved) along the way.

That shame spiral your wife is in, she may need a human or two who still see some good in her. If that’s not you right now, some time with her parents may help a tiny bit.

I'd like to think if I'd seen genuine remorse from her, I'd have offered her R by now and I'd be willing to take on the pain and sacrifice that will come along with that. I'm just not there yet.

Her request for them to come here while I'm gone bothers me for many reasons. For one, I don't want to provide her permission to do anything. And most importantly, I want her to understand how hurtful her framing is before she says it. I'm really not focused on either of those points though; I'm focused on how I want to respond to it: run. She doesn't get it; she's not remorseful; I need out. That instinct within me is overwhelmed by my desire not to lose access to my children though.

The question I suppose is what this represents. I suspect it simply represents her desire to people please everyone--her parents get to come and visit and I get to not be hurt by spending the day at the office and avoiding them--everyone wins. But she's not respecting me and the damage she's done to our marriage.

Your home should be your safe place.

Agreed--and perhaps it's as simple as that.

We always tell BS it's ok to cut out people who aren't friends of the marriage. It's actually encouraged. Your in-laws are not friends of your marriage. It would be ok for you to tell your wife to cut them out. However, I know that's not what you will do.

Maybe,eventually, one day you will feel more comfortable being around them. Hopefully you will. But, right now? It's too soon. The wound is still fresh. You had a short text exchange with your father in law,and it caused you to be upset for the rest of your day. Having them in your home would be too much for you. Right now.

It's ok for her to take the kids to see them,but it isn't good for you to have them in your home..in your safe place.

Your wife needs to be totally understanding and accommodating. She caused this. All of it. Yes, the parents are responsible for their words. But their daughter couldn't stop telling them how horrible you were. This is all on her. You shouldn't feel bad for telling her they are not welcome in the home.

Agreed entirely. I don't have a desire to proclaim that I'm cutting them out of my life. My desire is to not see them now--that doesn't have to be a reflection of how I feel a year from now. And currently, I don't have a desire to cut them out of my WW's or children's lives. I simply want the responsibility to land on my wife to navigate the complicated situation she's created without placing me in awkward and uncomfortable positions.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 3:43 PM, Friday, September 16th]

Drstrangelove, you have a pm.

I’m not trying to be flip in asking this, but when are the 6 months up and will you do anything different after that deadline passes? Maybe I missed it and they are up. I genuinely would be interested in discussing it.

I’m not trying to be flip in asking this, but when are the 6 months up and will you do anything different after that deadline passes? Maybe I missed it and they are up. I genuinely would be interested in discussing it.

The six months are up. But honestly, they were up at five months—in terms of tolerance for any egregious behavior. The incident at the beginning of August cleared the deck.

We had a good MC session yesterday, focused on my in-laws, and it definitely took my WW by surprise. I hadn’t discussed with her my feelings over our Tuesday conversation until the MC session. We didn’t arrive at any conclusion during the session (we are meeting again on Wednesday before her parents come down), but I think what I’d like to do is meet them all for dinner out when they’re here. I don’t want them coming to the house, but I do want to see them (I think).

They’ve done their part in apologizing to me, so it’s time I figure out what my emotional response to being around them is going to be.

It’s also likely that they don’t come down this year for Christmas, but I’m going to reserve judgment until after I process seeing them again.

I'm bewildered by that statement. You're accusing me of misrepresenting the PM I received--I did not.

CAVEAT: I am not speaking directly to the PM. I have no idea what was said - nor do I care. As far as how you’ve portrayed it - the move on if you have an issue with the thread - I don’t necessarily disagree with that point. But it’s irrelevant within this context because I know neither the contents of the message nor the job of moderating such a potentially volatile site.

This is an example of the same thing I have seen over and over in your posts. You just simply cannot even entertain the idea of a different perspective. And even when I challenge you on that - you see that as me responding out of some offense and then being offensive in return.

I’m trying to say things gently to you but they don’t land. More directly, they are then just swatted down.

Can you entertain the thought that maybe THIS is the biggest challenge you are facing?

Things are not simply black and white - no matter how identified you are with your binary thinking. Things are also not just simply right or wrong…there are ALWAYS shades of gray, degrees. You seem to recognize this and allow for it when it comes to something like the judicial system (ie, degrees of murder)…but you can’t seem to recognize it when it comes to your own thought patterns and larger resulting perspectives. You admit and it seems obvious to me that you enjoy the debate…but I keep getting the sense that the debate is not so much for the purpose of expansion as it is to reinforce your own sense of being "right". While you say you recognize you aren’t "the smartest person in the room", your style of interaction seems to suggest that that’s only true for you once it’s "proven" *to your satisfaction.*

I don’t say any of these things to hurt you. And I certainly don’t say them to somehow "win". I’m pointing them out because I see that as one of the biggest stumbling blocks…like it’s some kind of barrier that can’t be broken through. But if only that could be done, then SO much would potentially change for you. So much would become clearer. It happens occasionally and it wounds you - which I TOTALLY understand. I actually hold my breath for you in that moment because I’m so hoping the light will come on for you. But then I sigh because you seem to catch your breath and double down on the same strategy again.

All this is less about examining all the nuances of every single interaction - here, with your wife, with your past - and instead opening yourself up to the idea that your lens itself may be the first thing you need to clean. It’s giving up the need to be so binary, so reliant on your own logic (which is always largely still based on your own experiences - Occam’s razor holds true until you’ve been run over by a herd of zebras) and accepting that both this and that can be true. This is what lies at the root of true connection…and I strongly suspect that the lack of true connection is part of what has grown this "part of your brain" to be so dominant. It’s the proverbial chicken vs the egg…but also the snake that’s eating it’s own tail.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 8:44 PM, Saturday, September 17th]

Please remind me, what were their apologies like. Especially her moms.

My wife and I both have experience of being hurt by each other parents (not concerning infidelity) and not receiving apologies, so I know a bit how that feels.

If your MIL has not truly apologized and made amends for not being a friend of the marriage, then I agree your wife needs to show that it’s not ok that she encouraged her to cheat.

I think I do remember that she also tried to discourage the A, but not completely.

She could have supported your wife and helped her if she wasn’t happy in the marriage without encouraging infidelity. And your wife needs to be clear with her about that.

If I were advising your wife, and she presented the dilemma of her parents wanting to visit and seeing their grandchildren, I’d advise her to discuss with you how to best achieve that with ensuring your feelings had the best chance of not being hurt.

She gave you her solution without giving a chance to come up with one together jointly as a team. That’s what hurts in my opinion. She wanted it her way. Maybe she had you in mind when she came up with it, but not as primary.

In my opinion it is up to her to help with bridging this chasm between you and yer parents. She can’t do it alone, but I think it’s worth discussing with her what role she should be playing here and how she should approach it.

Just my thoughts…

[This message edited by Stevesn at 1:23 PM, Sunday, September 18th]

You just simply cannot even entertain the idea of a different perspective. And even when I challenge you on that - you see that as me responding out of some offense and then being offensive in return.

I’m trying to say things gently to you but they don’t land. More directly, they are then just swatted down.

Can you entertain the thought that maybe THIS is the biggest challenge you are facing?

Truth, I agree with you that I do quickly attempt to identify a defined position on a topic--all topics. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong--and to your point, sometimes I find the answer isn't as simple as right and wrong and there are varying shades of grey. I'm open to all those possibilities, but it takes a better idea or proof of concept to move me off my position.

I disagree that it's the biggest challenge I'm facing though. I think on the whole, the trait is a benefit to my personal and professional life. I can think quick and make educated decisions. I'm also fine with backing off my initial position when a new position becomes more logical.

I find the distinction between situations is often my understanding going in--I can land on a side of a position if I have 10% of the needed information or 90% of the needed information--obviously with the former, it's more likely that I'll need to revise my position as I understand more. Sometimes it might be best not to take a position on a topic with that level of understanding--and I usually don't--but other times a position is necessary. I work in a high pressure field that often deals with crisis situations--I make my living based on making decisions with incomplete information--I suspect that plays a role in the missteps I make when a decision is not needed and I make them anyway.

And to be clear, I don't find any of your posts offensive and I'm saddened to read that you feel I've been offensive in some of mine. I've been direct, but certainly never intentionally hurtful. I suspect you're referring to our weight-loss discussion, but I think we both communicated fairly--and my position hasn't changed. It's a good example of something that *is* binary, at least in the framework of our discussion, so it seems to me that's a topic where you could have adapted your position with more understanding, but chose not to. However, this isn't a biology or nutrition forum, so it's probably best to leave that alone.

Steven, I think your post nails a few things.

Please remind me, what were their apologies like. Especially her moms.

My wife and I both have experience of being hurt by each other parents (not concerning infidelity) and not receiving apologies, so I know a bit how that feels.

If your MIL has not truly apologized and made amends for not being a friend of the marriage, then I agree your wife needs to show that it’s not ok that she encouraged her to cheat.

My MIL called me in June, a month or so before my family was coming up to visit (I ended up going to Italy with my mother instead). She seemed very contrite on the call and was largely very critical of my WW. She claimed that she didn't understand the scope of what was happening during the affair and while her instinct was to admonish and shun her daughter at first, she quickly caved because she felt her obligation was to be there as support for her daughter. She claims she never would have done that had she known the full reality of what was happening (my wife making shit up, unprotected sex, etc.).

As far as I can tell, the apology was authentic and heartfelt.

I think I do remember that she also tried to discourage the A, but not completely.

She could have supported your wife and helped her if she wasn’t happy in the marriage without encouraging infidelity. And your wife needs to be clear with her about that.

This is a bit of a grey area. She never encouraged the affair, but she was accepting of it and enabling of it. She also participated in dozens of conversations with my WW, who was fabricating reasons to attack me in order to justify the affair. My MIL would then feed those justifications by supporting my WW's belief that she was a victim.

My MIL felt that if she outright discouraged the affair, my WW would stop communicating with her--and FWIW, she's correct as that's exactly what my WW would have done. She did that with my SIL who would not feed into my WW's narrative.

If I were advising your wife, and she presented the dilemma of her parents wanting to visit and seeing their grandchildren, I’d advise her to discuss with you how to best achieve that with ensuring your feelings had the best chance of not being hurt.

She gave you her solution without giving a chance to come up with one together jointly as a team. That’s what hurts in my opinion. She wanted it her way. Maybe she had you in mind when she came up with it, but not as primary.

In my opinion it is up to her to help with bridging this chasm between you and yer parents. She can’t do it alone, but I think it’s worth discussing with her what role she should be playing here and how she should approach it.

Precisely. She made the decision on her own--certainly with me in mind, but not *with* me. It's a routine conversation--I want to make these decisions together based on our collective best interest and she's acting unilaterally.

**

It actually devolved into a negative situation over the weekend.

On Friday, during MC, I told my WW for the first time how hurt I was for telling me it would be more "convenient" if I wasn't around when they visited. My WW got very defensive during the session and immediately moved to resolve it by noting that her parents won't come to the house and she'll bring the kids to them during the two-day trip.

She was in a bad mood that afternoon, criticizing my father to me over a nothing issue, so I knew something was up.

I gave it some thought throughout the day and empathized with my wife, who wants the comfort of seeing her parents and wants our kids to see them--makes sense and seems fair to me. I suggested to her that perhaps on one of the days, we could all do dinner together out. On Monday, my daughter has a bday party, so I can bring her to that; then on Tuesday, we could all meet for dinner. After the dinner, I'll process how I feel and discuss it with her. I was careful not to promise anything more--I just want to take it one step at a time.

She was receptive to that and we went to bed on good terms. I felt like it was an olive branch from me that was more than fair.

She woke up on Saturday in a bad head space. She didn't want to talk about it, then during the day she said she was good again.

That night, things blew up. We had an *absurd* fight. She picked a bizarre fight about the pronunciation of the word "either" (her parents are Canadian and they pronounce it the British way: ay-ther). It's too insane to recap, but I recognized immediately that she was still angry about something else and was using this as a vehicle for it. It eventually turned into an attack on my family and my mother's husband--it was off the rails. I was firm and not willing to engage really.

As you can imagine, she woke up apologetic the next day and I let it breath until Sunday night when we talked again. She told me she was in the middle of an anxiety attack the night before over how to handle Christmas this year--if she had to tell her parents they couldn't come or if she had to bring the kids up at a different time to visit, etc. She said she became consumed with that and couldn't get herself out of it.

Truthfully, if dinner goes well next week, I think I'd be open to having them down for Christmas, perhaps just not sleeping here. But I can't tell my WW that. Bottom-line, she's going to have to sweat this one out a bit. The situation sucks, but it's entirely her fault.

And to be clear, I don't find any of your posts offensive and I'm saddened to read that you feel I've been offensive in some of mine. I've been direct, but certainly never intentionally hurtful. I suspect you're referring to our weight-loss discussion, but I think we both communicated fairly--and my position hasn't changed. It's a good example of something that *is* binary, at least in the framework of our discussion, so it seems to me that's a topic where you could have adapted your position with more understanding, but chose not to.

.

See, this is part of the larger point I am trying to convey to you.

I felt like you missed the forest for the trees in the analogy I gave you with the weight loss example. I get that as being the "flip side" of your logic "coin" so it neither surprised nor offended me. But I can’t get to that because you’ve now already written your own script about what you think I should have done differently in my response.

Do you see how that played out with just a stranger on the internet? I’m already "wrong" about something, in response to something, that wasn’t even the point that I was trying to make. Do I continue to engage with you at that level - which just then becomes more about the topic that wasn’t even the topic *for me*? (Honestly, I don’t give two shits about telling anybody how to lose any weight.)

In short, and as a broader application, I’m challenging you on how maybe your binary thinking is not serving you when it comes to relatability…when it comes to making connection. I don’t doubt that your logic has been a skill that has served you in many ways. It’s a question of is it serving you in ALL ways?

From my limited experience - from observation (here on your thread and as you describe interactions with your wife) - that answer seems to be a resounding no.