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If you do divorce, it will be due to the affair,your wife's lack of remorse amd respect towards you, and the emotional abuse you continue to deal with.

That's not your fault. You are not a POS for demanding respect,love,and for your spouse to be non abusive. That's actually setting a very good example for your children.

Hey - this isn't true. It doesn't have to be. I have been through it. I divorced an EXTREMELY remorseful spouse who did and was willing to do all the right things. But it wasn't enough for me. I had a lot of guilt to overcome to accept that. I didn't want him. And my kids are good. We didn't damage them. Really.

If your wife is unhinged and refuses to work on herself after the hypothetical divorce, that can damage them, sure. But that's not on you. You can be a loving supportive parent and be divorced if that's what is best for you. It doesn't have to be damaging and certainly doesn't have to be your fault.

I do think if you continue to live indefinitely with your wife being a total asshole, that will damage them. You are being patient and waiting for that a-ha moment. But if it doesn't come soon, demonstrating that NOT accepting this treatment from a partner or really anyone in life is quite the opposite of damaging. I just wanted to throw that out there.

Clouds, I appreciate the post, but ultimately, I don't agree with you.

Even through the madness of these last five months, I think my WW and I are doing a great job showing love for the kids and keeping their image of a family unit whole. I strongly believe upending their lives would have disastrous results--in the end, the odds are at least for one of them.

I also understand I could just let it go--right now. I could force myself to stay regardless of what my WW does and very likely live a largely happy life and raise two (hopefully) happy children. I understand it may not be what is best for me, but nothing will change my mind that it's what is best for them. And that's a heavy weight on my shoulders. And if our home became a toxic place, I'd feel very differently, but it just isn't right now.

The issue for me is my WW's emotional abuse is representative of deep and significant problems I recognize within myself. I'm struggling to rationalize why I tolerated it for so long--without leaning on easy justifications like doing it for the kids. I genuinely don't know if it's a self-esteem issue or something that set in when I was too immature emotionally and I never became fully aware of until post-DDay.

But the incident last Thursday has really left me shaken. No matter how many times I replay it and analyze it, I can't make sense of it. My WW deliberately hurt me in a way she knew would hurt me the most. It's malicious and vindictive in a way I can't relate to--it makes me look at her differently--I now have this pity for her that I don't know what to do with.

And lastly, she is not abusive to me in any way in front of anyone else, including our children. In fact, other than this community and our therapists, no one in our real life has any idea that this type of thing is happening behind the curtains. It's interesting, because I wouldn't tolerate her public abuse--and I suspect she knows that. I point that out only to note that our children are not witnessing any negativity in our interactions (aside from frequent sadness post-DDay).

I am very sorry you're hurting. Your new view of your wife makes perfect sense.

I strongly disagree that your kids don't or won't know. If she acts in the way you describe, it will impact them and their relationships in the future even if you think its hidden. Everyone always thinks the kids don't know. You can find many support groups online or on reddit for children with emotionally immature parents with similar behaviors. You don't find many who grew up to think that staying with the emotionally immature parent running the show was a positive thing.

I am not trying to kick you when you're down. Whatever you decide and when you decide it is the right choice for you. Its your life and we are anonymous here. But it is naive to think your kids won't know the real her, if she chooses not to grow and change.

And lastly, she is not abusive to me in any way in front of anyone else, including our children. In fact, other than this community and our therapists, no one in our real life has any idea that this type of thing is happening behind the curtains. It's interesting, because I wouldn't tolerate her public abuse--and I suspect she knows that. I point that out only to note that our children are not witnessing any negativity in our interactions (aside from frequent sadness post-DDay)

Isn’t that interesting? When other people are around to judge her behavior, she’s the model of wifely behavior. She only unloads her abuse on you when there aren’t any witnesses. I can assure you it has nothing to do with sparing your pride.

These aren’t uncontrollable fits of anger. She picks and chooses when to flip her switch.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 11:17 PM, Friday, August 12th]

These aren’t uncontrollable fits of anger. She picks and chooses when to flip her switch.

Of course not--they're designed to both make me aware of her anger and hurt me.

I also want to be careful in how I paint this--she's typically lovely 99% of the time. But that 1% is a doozy.

Never mind.

[This message edited by PrettyLies at 1:30 AM, Saturday, August 13th]

Regarding labels-These are widely accepted words about common things that happen in the aftermath of affairs. They are used in this forum because most of us had a lot of therapy and read a lot of books. It’s factual information combined with what we experienced and we attempt to recognize in others in how they describe their situation.

Are we always right? No, we don’t know each other in real life so there are significant blind spots.I find it still helpful because we can take what resonates and leave the rest.

Truth is affairs are as old as civilization. They have been studied to death and there is a lot of science behind it. Ws’s have many common traits, there are many common behaviors. This is why you could literally write a cheaters handbook. They are cliche things that are true.

When someone is betrayed there is a grieving process because ultimately the marriage died at point of impact. You don’t maybe realize it all at once. That old marriage is dead, it remains to be seen if a new one can be created. And that is only possible with two healed people.

Because of that grief the stages the bs goes through that are similar as well. It may not be in the same order and may take more time for one person to move through one stage than another. It depends a lot on their past trauma and what is being triggered as a result. But make no mistake, thr stages of grief are inevitable. I often look for clues as to where I think the bs is in that cycle.

Shock is a part of Denial and bargaining stages of grief. I think you show many signs of still being in that phase but you likely wouldn’t know it until you are past it. I only said it to dude because I surmise he knows a bit about that, not to lob some sort of label.

It’s not uncommon to not to identify what stage you are technically in. Sometimes people don’t even know what the stages of grief include. And the stages aren’t linear - you will experience each stage more than once.

I myself often struggled with recognizing where I was in my own journey (both as the ws and as the bs). I am a lot like you, I like to think positively but for me it led to being in denial for too long. I am the queen of denial. I was reconciling with a man who was simultaneously having a highly sexual affair in my own house on most weekdays for 18 months. Often having sex with me the same day with no condoms with either of us ever. Thank the stars that my STD panel came back negative.

Learning to trust myself after that was harder than learning to trust him again. Focusing on myself meant digging into that and I have to say that was a battle.

Reconciliation process is both people working on the marriage. The bs is willing to change “paper cut behaviors” and the ws is continuing their consistency of showing they value the marriage and practicing new skills. Renegotiation is a big part as is working on new relationship skills together.

Recovery is the stage before working on the marriage when people are still disoriented and overwhelmed. Stabilization happens as they are introspective, recognizing issues they need to change (they are often previously unaware of) and starting to modify themselves based on that information. Basically it’s a period of healing so that you can come together again.

Limbo to me is prolonged recovery with no resolution. Prolonging is often caused by things like lack of healing/change on one side or both, new discoveries/trickle truth/ws continuing to withhold information, white knuckling because they are waiting on a condition to change such as finances, kids, etc. I think of limbo as people being more than a year out without significant progress.

To me you have skipped over big pieces of the recovery and went straight into trying to repair the marriage. This is a common issue when people start MC right away or codependency is present and can be mild to severe based on the level of codependency. The MC isn’t going to say you guys shouldn’t be there yet.

The reason I say you are reconciling is Because you been working on pre-affair issues, working on your part of the relationship with a woman who hasn’t worked on herself enough yet for it. This is detrimental, a bad investment, and a common pitfall which is why people here are vigilant about it.

Maybe not for her lack of trying but because it’s never clear exactly how to do it especially early on. Then when you finally get the needle on the record you are working on patterns that have been with you for many years if not most of your life. You are battling your own conditioning, and deconstruction takes a lot of introspection to recognize, learning replacement behaviors, and lots of long term consistent practice.

This is outside of abusive behavior which I do believe she can control. As mentioned earlier she controls it in front of others. People without that control will slip up in front of people from time to time.

In the meantime, You haven’t had a chance to recover and you keep subjecting yourself to her current state of toxicity by engaging in reconciliation activities. That’s not allowing you to recover because you aren’t giving yourself the bandwidth. You have posted for over 100 pages if nothing else is clear that is. It’s clear to everyone here and that’s why you are sensing a theme.

If we agree on anything you are headed for a divorce. I agree with hellfire that blame lies with your wife. However, I feel pretty sure after reading very closely over the last months that really isn’t your wish. You love your wife. You want your family in tact.

Sometimes you sound darker when you are upset with her. The darker part is probably a better indicator of where you are and you can and should embrace that. Stop doing shit you don’t want to do. You are not the bad guy in any way for taking that space for yourself. In the long run you will get the most benefit from it. And right now she still also stands a chance of benefitting from that too.

Also, I don’t necessarily think you should extend for six months longer. I don’t think you should put up with abuse. I am only telling you that it usually does take about year to recover on for both parties. When you read here for five years it’s evident that’s the norm. That doesn’t mean stay for that long if it’s still abusive.

Progress is slow. H gave me six months, and then decided to hang in there for an undetermined time longer. He asked me for a divorce at ten months. It only didn’t happen because I did get my shit together. Not because he asked me for a divorce but because I was getting there already and the way I conducted myself during the negotiations made that clear to him.

So maybe prolonging isn’t good. But she isn’t going to be where she needs to be (if she gets there at all) until closer to that. That was all I was saying.

I have helped countless ws over the 5 years and have read thousands and thousands of posts- and it’s like clockwork for the ones who are trying- six months (give or take a month or so) the lightbulb comes on and then slowly the light gets brighter the next six. It’s almost always something like that in the timeline. I have seen much longer time frames but typically the ws isn’t being consistent in their efforts or here because they have been made to be.

Some ws’s do it sooner but typically it seems like they are ones who had a drunken one night stand or something more superficial than a full blown EA/PA. It’s extremely less often to see that type of ws this forum for very long at all.

She is not going to be where you want her to be in a month. You can definitely count on that.

And no I am not offended by bluntness. I was angered the other time because the response had content that personally about me - it questioned my integrity and other things I have worked extremely hard on. I had a hard time taking it lightly because the last five years was the emotional equivalent of climbing Mount Everest.

However, I soon realized you might be too new to the process to know how deeply insulting it was, and I am fairly sure you still wouldn’t see it. That was the only reason I relented and returned.

Questioning or challenging my advice is part of a process. That I am on okay terms with. It leads to better understanding. Questioning or challenging my motivations or integrity is a different issue.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:53 AM, Saturday, August 13th]

The issue for me is my WW's emotional abuse is representative of deep and significant problems I recognize within myself. I'm struggling to rationalize why I tolerated it for so long--without leaning on easy justifications like doing it for the kids. I genuinely don't know if it's a self-esteem issue or something that set in when I was too immature emotionally and I never became fully aware of until post-DDay.

This is focusing on yourself. Probably the biggest admission I have ever seen from you in that regard. Sorry I after I responded to you I continued to read the thread and am seeing this.

And I do agree with cloud. Kids do not have to see or hear anything for them to feel the undercurrent. They are like perceptive little sponges. I doubt it’s damaging especially since they are not seeing the toxicity, and also because it’s been a short time. But the work the two of you are doing will forever benefit them regardless of the outcome of your marriage.

This is focusing on yourself. Probably the biggest admission I have ever seen from you in that regard.

That’s the type of stuff I discuss in IC.

Largely, I’d say there are two categories of things I require help processing: my WW’s behavior and personal issues directly or indirectly tied to my sex life. I tend to find the feedback here on the latter negative or unhelpful, so I focus on the former.

And that has nothing to do with you personally.

Many of the old wounds of my relationship and a lot of my current day-to-day issues are connected to sex, so by limiting how much I write about it here, I also limit the amount of introspection you see.

On the other hand, I’ve found this community very helpful in either revealing or affirming aspects of my WW’s behavior. And when the two categories cross, I’ve often posted about the issue.

This is what I basically said earlier.

Parroting Docs words back, his hurt is not based on his WW having sex with someone else. It’s instead based on his WW pre A sex life with him. This is not traditional BH kind of stuff most have seen.

The second part is the emotional abuse stuff and lack of empathy from his WW - all pre A stuff as well, that is still ongoing but getting better.

Thus, Doc thinks he will be fully healed once his WW consistently gives him the sex he desires and changes her pre A personality.

That’s how I see it because those are the words Doc is using. The question then goes back to what HO is saying. She is saying that you are in denial about the fact that you are in, and will continue to experience, different phases in the post A process.

Doc thinks otherwise. He thinks if the sex gets fixed snd the WW personality gets fixed (wrt empathy emotional abuse only - remember Doc said she is lovely 99% of the time) he will be healed snd happy.

I’m in a bad head space. I thought I’d write a bit and see if I can help sort out what is going on in my head.

I’ve been in an emotional funk since the incident last Thursday. While I was in Italy last month, I tried to simplify and compartmentalize various aspects of the affair and my life. The space from my WW helped and I returned renewed. I felt great for three weeks until last Thursday’s incident.

Since then, all the pain I was dealing with prior to Italy flooded back. There are general things, like still being upset about various affair-related events, and specific things, like the unshakable feeling that my wife has had inappropriate relationships with men during our relationship that I’m not aware of.

On that topic, I largely dismissed it after D-Day for a couple of reasons: one, I was entirely focused on the current affair and didn’t have the mental bandwidth to expand my scope; and two, I felt like a previous affair would have popped up in the lengthy conversations my WW was having with her mom and it did not.

Well now I have the bandwidth and I understand that just because my MIL is my WW’s primary confidant, doesn’t mean she always told her everything—which I suspect is very true for the time period early on in our relationship, post-college. And even if my WW had told her mom about something in that time period, it’s unlikely it would have come up now with so much distance since and us having not been married with kids then.

I’m not sure why this suspicion has become so insidious and unshakable. I feel confident there have been other inappropriate relationships, but my WW is holding fast that I know everything. I just don’t believe her.

I also know she wouldn’t tell me about them now for fear of it being the straw that broke the camel’s back. So the combination of my gut feeling so strongly and logic supporting her desire to lie, it has left me with an overwhelming negative feeling this last week.

I’m not entirely sure what prompted this specific concern—I suspect it’s just my brain retracing all the stuff I glossed over these last few months.

So that brings me to yesterday. I’ve been in this funk, and as my WW has told me, her mood goes with me: she sees me down and upset and she feels down and upset. She’s seemingly been worse off than me this week.

In her words, it’s two-fold in that she is terrified that her actions last week could have ended the marriage and she’s dealing with a major conflict at work (she’s losing some responsibility and will have to fire about 14 people that support her company).

I decided yesterday morning that I’d force a more positive attitude—I thought it would help both of us and give us a needed reprieve. My WW had to bring the kids to swim lessons in the early evening, so I offered to make them something simple and make a nice dinner for us after they go to bed.

I went shopping during the day and prepared a great meal with a bottle of good wine. We enjoyed dinner and then moved to the couch for some light TV. My WW’s spirits were up and we both were enjoying each other’s company. We talked a bit, but nothing too heavy.

It was time for bed and I asked her if she wanted to have sex—my thinking was that while things seemed fine on the surface, I wasn’t 100% sure where her head was at and i am trying to avoid any kind of negative sexual interaction. My sense in the moment is that things were fine and we just had a lovely date night, so sex was likely.

She responded with: "Let me decide after I take my makeup off."

Now, I can certainly be a bit dense at times, but that seemed like a clear indication that she was not enthusiastic about sex. And I was ok with that. I was tired anyway and wanted to keep things conflict-free.

I was ready for bed first and got into bed ready to go to sleep. She came in after, asking why I was going to sleep. I didn’t respond.

She then asked if we could kiss. So I said sure, and we made out and bit and she then drifted off to sleep.

Now the make out session turned me on unfortunately, so I had to get up and take care of things myself, but in the moment I was fine with it—logically. If I wanted sex, we certainly could have had it, but I deferred to her and have no reason to be upset with her for not wanting it.

But I’ll admit, emotionally, it hit me a bit. It was a trigger to our old sex life—her going to sleep and me going off to masterbate on my own. I didn’t let it overwhelm me though and I went to sleep.

I woke up early overwhelmed with negative thoughts. The affair, potential previous affairs; all the bad stuff all at once. I don’t see a logical tie to all of that with what happened last night, but I’ll assume it’s not a coincidence.

I’d say this morning I’m in the worst headspace I’ve been in a long time. And my logical brain understands it is nothing that my WW did last night. I just don’t want to be around her right now or really explain any of this to her—she’ll just simplify it all to me being mad she didn’t give me sex. And I don’t even know if that’s untrue—would I have woken up so depressed if we had sex last night? I genuinely have no idea.

We were supposed to go to the house of parents of one of my daughter’s friends for food and a pool party today and I told my WW I was going to skip it, so she’ll take the kids and I’ll have some alone time to process.

I’m sorry you’re in this funk. I think there is a silver lining, however. Most have been recommending to you, most recently HO, that there is a lot more to your WWs A wrt how you are processing it, than you are allowing yourself to feel.

You are in a "stage" right now, which you call a label, but is in fact a stage. Thus, there is much more to this than just the sex snd emotional abuse stuff, the inference being if my WW can fix these things in a timely manner I’ll be good to go.

My recommendation is to start processing your WW A, dealing with it, and healing from it along the lines of HO’s comments. This simply isn’t just about two discrete phenomena - sex and WWs negative personality traits vis a vis emotional abuse snd empathy.

Also, a poly will resolve your questions about whether your WW is being honest about prior cheating incident. This is probably a must do at this point.

Also, a poly will resolve your questions about whether your WW is being honest about prior cheating incident. This is probably a must do at this point.

I’m not sure a poly can resolve what I’m looking to accomplish.

I want to feel connected to my wife again. I want to trust her and I want her to trust me.

If the poly test comes back clean, I’ll still be left with this feeling in my gut and this disconnect with my wife. If the poly suggests she’s being deceitful or it’s inconclusive, it would be enough for me to walk—not because she cheated more, but because she was too much of a coward to tell me.

I strongly believe in clarity of purpose and my purpose here isn’t a binary true or false; it’s to regain a *feeling* that my WW loves and respects me.

I need my WW to volunteer the information as a critical sign that she wants R. Nothing would be sadder than if she is genuinely not hiding anything, but at the same time, nothing would shock me more.

I can’t tell you how many BHs have said the exact same thing about not doing a poly, then later found out about more lies, and realized they should have done the poly. The other group resisted doing the poly, finally relented, snd we’re so thankful they did.

You will find out most of what you want to know by insisting on a poly, giving her the reasons as to why you want one, snd seeing WWs initial reaction. If she is eager to do one that’s a good sign, however, many back track shortly thereafter. That’s also a sign.

I also want to be careful in how I paint this--she's typically lovely 99% of the time. But that 1% is a doozy.

"This car is perfect, except when the breaks fail."

When I worked with abused women,they said the same thing. He's great,when he's not abusing me.

You are an abused husband. You've been an abused husband for a very long time. It's just normal to you, at this point. Dday shook that up,some,but you still view it as somewhat ok. You keep tolerating it. You say if she does it again,it's over. I don't think anyone believes that. Not us. Not her. Not you.

You said if she abused you publicly, that would be the final straw. Why is it ok privately?

You say your kids don't know that mom abuses dad. Yet,it seems she's sleeping on the couch on occasion. The kids don't know?

[This message edited by HellFire at 3:08 PM, Sunday, August 14th]

But I’ll admit, emotionally, it hit me a bit. It was a trigger to our old sex life—her going to sleep and me going off to masterbate on my own. I didn’t let it overwhelm me though and I went to sleep.

I woke up early overwhelmed with negative thoughts. The affair, potential previous affairs; all the bad stuff all at once. I don’t see a logical tie to all of that with what happened last night, but I’ll assume it’s not a coincidence.

I’d say this morning I’m in the worst headspace I’ve been in a long time. And my logical brain understands it is nothing that my WW did last night.

What you posted above reminds me of the saying, "Was it a bad day? Or was it a bad five minutes you milked all day." – Unknown

You say that you did not allow the thoughts to overwhelm you, yet you woke up early overwhelmed with negative thoughts. You also state, "I'll assume it's not a coincidence".

You are right, it is not a coincidence. You are in this headspace because you are choosing to dwell in this headspace.

Thinking too deeply can cause one to dwell on their sufferings, which tends to heighten one's sense of frustration or anger with events (which likely leads to the downward spiral otherwise known as "worst funk ever").

We were supposed to go to the house of parents of one of my daughter’s friends for food and a pool party today and I told my WW I was going to skip it, so she’ll take the kids and I’ll have some alone time to process.

Go have fun! You just processed your funk. It was exactly what you labeled it. Funk. Don't give any more headspace to it. Jot it down as something to discuss in IC. Go swim and eat hamburgers!

I can’t tell you how many BHs have said the exact same thing about not doing a poly, then later found out about more lies, and realized they should have done the poly. The other group resisted doing the poly, finally relented, snd we’re so thankful they did.

You will find out most of what you want to know by insisting on a poly, giving her the reasons as to why you want one, snd seeing WWs initial reaction. If she is eager to do one that’s a good sign, however, many back track shortly thereafter. That’s also a sign.

Oh, I did that exercise already and more truth came out (I think it was five or six weeks ago and certainly wrote about it). The biggest reveals were:

- In 2007~ she spent a night with a girlfriend riding around in a limo with some Navy guys during fleet week in NYC--she claims nothing happened.

- The other, larger reveal, was that in 2009~ she had plans to meet up with some high school friends who were visiting from England, including her exbf who she was still in touch with over social media. She lied to me about planning to meet with co-workers after work to setup the gathering, and then the day of, she didn't show up and just came home. I never knew anything about it. She claims she cancelled because she didn't want to be in the situation as she thought it was likely her ex would try to kiss her. I was more upset by her lying to me to setup the possible meet.

Ultimately, her past is littered with her being receptive to advances from men and flirting. She craved the validation. By her accounts, she'd ride that wave up to the line and then bail just before things became problematic--up until her affair began late last year. That was allegedly the first time she crossed the line.

It makes sense, I just don't believe it. Her affair just seems too easy. If she was willing to do what she did with everything on the line--life, kids, husband--I can't accept that when the stakes were less, she was more responsible. Oppositely, I understand that most affairs happen during the timeframe I'm in and women tend to be more loyal as newlyweds.

Ultimately though, I see your point. I could force the test and see if I can squeeze more blood from the stone in advance, but the test itself feels like the wrong path for me. I'll keep considering it though.

"This car is perfect, except when the breaks fail."

Precisely.

It's also interesting because now I see all the signs everywhere. The incidents I write about are obvious problems, but I see her self-absorbed perspective in everything now. It never bothered me before, but now every time I notice it, I'm reminded of how she is still not capable of remorse.

You are an abused husband. You've been an abused husband for a very long time. It's just normal to you, at this point. Dday shook that up,some,but you still view it as somewhat ok. You keep tolerating it. You say if she does it again,it's over. I don't think anyone believes that. Not us. Not her. Not you.

The thing about "belief" is that it never really matters. If an incident like last Thursday happens again, I'm going to ask my WW to move out of the house. I *think* she believes that. You do not. I do not require either of your understanding to proceed.

I will note, your comment here--and similar ones from others--does concern me. I may not be conveying who I am very well.

I'm certain a divorce will be harmful for my children. There have been dozens of posts disagreeing with my position. None of them sway me. I'm certain they're all wrong; perhaps more certain of that than anything else. So that's a very heavy weight on the opposing scale.

I believe the *correct* response to my WW's affair was to divorce her immediately. If I only had my best interest in mind, that's precisely what I would have done. I've given her this time because I feel I owe that to my children--again plenty of people disagree, but their disagreement means nothing to me. Not because I know better than them, but because this is my morality, not theirs.

So yes, now my good will for my WW is dried up. I've been clear with what I expect of my WW since D-Day and last Thursday was the last straw. Her behavior was egregious and indefensible. She's used up all her lives and it's on her to rise to this moment--and I believe if she fails it will be because she does not want this marriage to continue. And I expect that will give me the resolution I need to proceed with a path that will harm my children.

And of course you can ask why she has gotten so many chances, or others can ask why *this* time is her last chance, but again, it's my timeline based on my judgement--and it's not a decision I've made lightly.

You said if she abused you publicly, that would be the final straw. Why is it ok privately?

I wrote that she has never been abusive publicly and that I never would have tolerated it publicly. I do agree with you that it shouldn't matter if it's private or public and I do not know why I tolerated it privately for so long.

You say your kids don't know that mom abuses dad. Yet,it seems she's sleeping on the couch on occasion. The kids don't know?

She's slept on the couch a few times in five months and the kids have never noticed. I also don't think it would have been a red flag had they noticed--she'd just have said she couldn't sleep, etc. She's slept on the couch in the past if she's sick or having trouble sleeping, so the kids wouldn't assume something is wrong unless it was a more ingrained change in behavior.

The kids, just like everyone else in our lives, have no idea that she is emotionally abusive on occasion.