SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Not trying to thread jack but I wanted to post a few days ago about the terminology debate a few pages back but got busy. I do think that the terms are important in the ways that they help define the expectations, behaviors and boundaries you operate within on a daily basis.

I would argue that you are in limbo that operates, by your choices & actions, as an R. An enmeshed limbo.

It’s been said on this thread that the basis of R versus limbo is her remorse or lack of it. I think it is a heck of a lot more complicated than that.

You are not living in a negotiated limbo where you both work on yourselves and check in.

You are as immersed in each other’s recovery as any couple in R because neither of you have the desire or willpower to create the individual space & boundaries that allows for concentrated self-work.

You both are constantly creating new hurts and incidents because you are unwilling to see that you can’t have an intimate and authentic relationship when one partner is still trying to pull her head out of her ass. You say again and again and again that this is limbo and then get wrapped around the axle when she does something that hurts you because your have exposed yourself to further pain by tying expectations of behavior/progress/empathy in ………limbo.

You say you are working diligently with your IC. Perhaps it is a pride thing where you can’t share that part of your journey or a hyperfocus on your wife, but we are at 150 pages of talking about your wife’s specific and detailed failures.

You have long conversations about your wife’s behaviors and provide her with both positive and negative feedback. She shares her IC sessions as they occur with you, and you provide your thoughts back to her. You go on dates, have sex etc…

I get the impression that you think that many posters are arguing semantics when phases, status, and other such topics arise. There is an archive of history on SI that informs that evidence. I can’t decide if you just love a healthy debate ad nauseum or have the arrogance to suggest that you are both too new to infidelity to hold fast to any of the ideas passed around here and at the same time are intellectually above such labels.

One thing enmeshed limbo has in great supply is topics/events to review/consider discuss about your WW. If you wanted it otherwise, you would make other choices. Establish some boundaries and stick to them.

I don’t think you want your wife to fail. Neither of you have much breathing room to work out your own shit because there is ALWAYS a new topic of failure of the week she needs address to and with you. I am not saying you are causing her to fail. Am saying you participate in new topics with gusto.

The MIL text thing. You are not in R. ‘I am not comfortable texting with your mother at this time .’ I am not saying there wouldn’t be more blow back but once you establish these kind of boundaries, you get more comfortable defending them.

She’s not qualified to be your empathetic partner in healing. She is not qualified to be a safe intimate partner, yet you demand it by your expectations and actions. And then dissect the latest failure.

That’s not a failure of her alone. You are right there holding her accountable for who you know she is not and maybe can’t be at this stage. That topic, IMO, is worth a heck of a lot more discussion on your threads than you allow.

My metric for success isn't a happy marriage. As lovely as that might be, I don't have control of that outcome. My metric of success is truth and understanding. I want clarity of purpose. Essentially, I'd rather be clear-eyed in a divorce through confirmation that my WW is incapable of changing her victim-mentality perspective than stumble along in whatever this is longer than prudent. And I need to interact with her a times to sort through what is happening. I've greatly reduced those interactions, but I do still check-in.

And as for your other question, I do enjoy a healthy debate ad nauseum.

HikingOut, I shared your post yesterday with my WW; it deeply affected her as well as me. We've both known she stopped loving me during the affair, it was just not something she was able to admit to me. With her tacit agreement now--through her agreeing with your post--I pressed and asked her when she stopped loving me. She paused, before replying: "About six months before the affair" (essentially, early 2021).

That hit me hard. I knew it already, but her clear-eyed response stung more than I had anticipated. That was the denial you reference in your recent post below. I suspect it's gone now.

Yeah, That was about the same as me, 6 months prior. But, as a WS I will frame that a bit differently for you. Your wife believes love is good feelings, hearts and flowers. I was the same way. Marital love is much deeper than that, it's a decision to love, to sacrifice, to put them on the same level you place yourself. It's effort and practice. I slept walk through marriage, I focused on the good and ignored the bad. That is part of marriage, but so is speaking up, negotiating your needs, and not ignoring patterns that are problematic.

To HellFire's (repeated) point: Is she working hard to prove it? I know that by reading books and attending IC, she thinks that she is. But is she really forcing change and challenging herself? It's hard to tell from the outside looking in; if for no other reason than the results aren't stellar

.No, that's what I was saying. IC is rebuilding yourself from the ground up, that takes a long time. You spend a lot of time going over your life and where patterns originated. I think the fact she is using mindfulness says to me that she is working in IC. It's just the focus is not proving anything to you, the focus is changing who she is as a person. So, any behavior modification she is demonstrating is part of that thought process slowly changing.

I can't promise she will get where she needs to but this IS what trying looks like in the beginning.

That's exactly what she said. However, since the incident the other week, she's been very guarded. She's simply not willing to risk fucking up again. The result is we feel miles apart. But that's probably ok.

It is, but she will be in a different phase with it likely soon. I went from guarded to taking risks again, but more intelligently. She is learning what doesn't work, and not doing that. The next phase will be trying to replace those behaviors and she will awkwardly practice that for a while too likely. There is no getting to the other side without a lot of failure. That's why we keep refocusing you towards detachment. Detachment is a phase in recovery when you learn that noone is going to protect you but you.

In time, she needs to express everything even things you might have a negative reaction. For now, she can’t trust what she says not to cause an unexpected result because of her skewed perception. At this point, it’s a good compromise until she can figure herself out.

That makes sense. I see virtually no progress with her perception though.

It's because she is ALSO in denial and bargaining. Every time she can make a brave admission to herself like "I didn't love my husband" then it brings it to the forefront to be processed. It's something she is now aware of and a lot of this is her bringing things into her awareness so that she can process them and start modifying.

How do you think you'd have reacted if your husband didn't have an affair? Obviously looking back now, you'd be happy, but in the moment, do you think him having the affair increased your respect for him in some bizarre way?

Oh hell no. It made him seem like a hypocrite to me. Let me explain something because you don't know the story really. After my affair, I immediately put myself in IC. Two months later I confessed against the advice of my IC. I hoped that I could keep my marriage and I just didn't see how that was possible unless I gave him all the information and we proceeded together. By about 8-9 months out I was getting remorseful. People here talk about it like it's binary, but it's more gradual. I started to realize the damage I did, and was able to get curious about it without being overwhelmed with shame. This was my own first strokes of mindfullness. His affair started 18 months into R, but I didn't know it or even suspect it until we were 3 years out. By that time, I was already where I am now, give or take.

I mean my understanding deepened maybe some by having had the shoe on the other foot. It was a true blindside for me, he'd given me a new ring by then, we'd bought an RV to travel in together, we had a lot of deep conversations, etc. If anything it was disconcerting that we seemed so connected. During my affair we were not connected and I couldn't hide things were not okay. The fact he could was a very hard thing for me to relate to.

However, because I knew the ws playbook, I pretty much went 180 on him. Our affairs were very different, but I did know that he needed to do the same work, and I knew I needed to see that because I already knew that I would never believe he wanted this without something major happening.

Had I discovered the affair earlier in the process, we would have divorced. But, because I was very stable and clear by then and had done everything to save it already, I placed value on doing the same for him. But, fuck no, no respect over what he did. In fact, some would argue that he knew the pain he was inflicting, where as the typical WS hasn't experienced it and can much easier tell themselves stories about how the spouse would never find out and that it wouldn't hurt them as bad for whatever reason they think.

-Realizing thoughts are just garbage in/garbage out and blindly following them or worse basing emotions on them was a terrible practice. The Power of now by Eckhart Tolle was the most helpful with that as well as some of his classes on YouTube.

But I would start first with "feeling good: the new mood therapy" by dr David burns. It’s a bit of an easier read and may help with grasping some of Tolles’s concepts.

Also love love love Pedra Chadron. Anything she has written is helpful to get your thinking and heart back on track.

I've made this point to her a dozen times. Quite honestly, it's the most shocking thing about all of this. She *knows* her instincts are garbage, yet she continues to trust them in the moment every day. Her clinging onto her broken mental process must be harrowing for her, but she presses on.

She can't use tools she hasn't gained yet. Her instincts will not change until she has awareness over specific things and has time to practice mindfulness so she can reframe them and process them differently.

I started off asking if she was interested in having sex with other men--a hard no. I asked if she was interested in having sex with other men two years ago--again, a hard no. I asked why--she told me it was wrong and it threatened our marriage.

I thought that was fair reasoning--it's why we don't go around killing people too: it's wrong and then you go to jail. Essentially, morality and consequence.

Yes, I believe that is possible. I used to get bashed as the ws for saying this, sex was never a motivating factor for me. I didn't care about having sex with the AP. What I did care about was getting my ego kibbles. (There is a current thread in general called why are affairs so addictive, I described that part in detail in that post so I will save myself retyping it, but if you are interested the process of what happened is described there.

So I asked what changed in the affair and she told me she wasn't thinking about it being wrong and didn't think there would be consequences--obvious bull shit.

Okay, so I thought IF he found out there might be some consequences. I was very naive about what they were, and I didn't spend any time evaluating it. Because I just thought I was smart and clever and could take it to my grave. This is out of that cheaters handbook I referenced in my other post. Almost 100 percent of the time that is our answer, and it's both absurd and truthful. But you aren't a logical person when you have an affair, you are walking contradiction. Cognitive dissonance on full display.

For one, nothing had changed--it was wrong and there were consequences a year ago, but nine months ago there weren't? And two, if it wasn't wrong, she wouldn't have wrapped her life into a pretzel to conceal it from me.

So of course she knew it was wrong and of course she knew if I found out it would hurt our marriage. As best I can tell, she just didn't care.

That's true. She didn't. She felt entitled because she allowed resentments to build over the years and likely didn't do anything to effectively resolve them. It lead to the hardening of not feeling the loving feelings six months before the affair. I believe that because it also was my experience and I do not have a reason to lie. If you look at most WS's there is almost always some perceived imbalance in the relationship that gives them some sort of martyrdom that makes them feel like they have a right to do something special for themselves. And yes, I can see how moronic that is, but it would be a rare WS that had good emotional intelligence or self awareness. We tend to have victim mentalities.

So again, I asked if she was interested in sleeping with another man now--hard no. I asked if her "no" now was any different than her "no" at prior times in her life. She paused. I think she recognized her own bull shit. Her morality and fear of consequence are malleable. She is still the same unsafe partner she always has been.

I had no interest in sex with other men either. In fact, I didn't really even fantasize about it at all prior to my affair, or after my affair. Sex was a tool in my affair to make the AP think I was this great find. I used sex to manipulate him. Did I think that at the time? No, no real introspection is there during the affair, we avoid it like the plague. But, the sex was not my motivation then. If someone asked me six months out if I would miss how the AP made me feel, that would have been a yes. But it had nothing to do with the AP and more to do with the conditioning that I talk about in that addiction post.

My frustration is she does not have the intellectual capacity to explore any of this on her own and as best I can tell, she's not trying to explore it in IC.

Again, IC is not usually focused on dissecting these kinds of things. IC is about gaining awareness of thoughts and patterns that are not helpful. They actually seemed abstract to me. Like, why are you asking about my childhood or past sexual abuse when my house is on fire? It took a while before it came together for me that she was helping me become aware of my conditioning and why I think the way I do. Then it was challenging those thoughts, and then replacing them and practicing. I STILL will catch myself thinking a certain way and have to stop and reframe, but it's not nearly as voluminous and it's pretty infrequent. Old narratives that aren't serving me.

The other thing I explored regarding her whys is her insistence that this was all done for validation, not for love or sex. Again, obvious bull shit.

I didn't have an affair for sex. I know as a man that is difficult to relate to. The affair was about validation, but I would have a hard time saying it wasn't at all about love. Getting validation from someone is to a ws what love is. So, I agree she doesn't have that figured out, but I think she is trying to be honest with you from her standpoint of understanding. I don't think she had the level of addiction I did at all, it sounds like she was way more like Mrs. Walloped in that the infatuation left immediately upon ending/discovery. That was not my experience at all, but I believe Mrs. Walloped when she says that's how it was for her. She still experienced some level of the addiction and the patterns inside the affair were similar, but she let go of the AP immediately like your wife has. I was completely NC with the AP but I pined for him for some time after. I had a form of OCD and I think that's why my addiction raged more.

She had the validation during the early EA portion of the affair--and if not, she certainly did after they first kissed. She proved herself still sexually attractive, able to snag an attractive, younger man; proof of being the MILF in town. She then planned her hotel stay. Why? Further validation? Of course not. She did it for one of two reasons: she wanted to have sex with him because sex is fun or she wanted to further develop the growing emotional bond between them.

Maybe? For me, it wasn't that way. I knew we were going to have sex, I don't deny any of that. I didn't care about the sex for sake of sex. I mean to be honest, I had a great sex life with H. That wasn't lacking for me. As for wanting to develop a growing emotional bond, I don't think I would describe it that way either. I think the best thing I could describe is that I wanted to seem like this sexy ideal woman, and honestly it was another way I could ramp up him thinking how great I am. It's was more self adulation for me. I didn't see it as a way I could bond with him more?

Also, I can be more reserved sexually with a new partner until I am comfortable. It's almost impossible for me to climax with a new partner until we have been together many times. This has always been the case. I mean we were swinger for 2 years and I remember climaxing one time and it was with someone we'd been seeing for a year. My reasoning for swinging was the same reason I had an affair. I wanted to seem like an ideal sexy woman, because I didn't think I was worth enough on my own. That kicked in a little bit with the AP too.

I have been accused of minimizing from several men on this site, but this is not minimization. This is how I was wired. Considering sex has always been a tool for your wife, it's not hard to believe it would be with the AP. In the long run, for myself it didnt matter my motivation, my behaviors were abhorrent and devastating. I don't minimize that a bit.

Once the PA began, validation wasn't the principle target. For her AP, he wanted fun sex--I can relate to that. Perhaps that's what my WW wanted as well; but I suspect that wasn't it. I suspect she wanted to deepen her emotional connection--which is why on a longer timeline, having already fallen out of love with me, she was looking for an exit from our marriage.

Now I'm not trying to punish her for that hypothetical outcome, but it is so difficult for her to progress when she can't be honest with herself.

I agree with you here. I think mine was an exit affair too. But I was responsible for my own happiness in my marriage. It was noone else's responsibility. I made it my husband's responsibility with all these unexpressed expectations. Since he is not a mind reader, they would quickly turn into disappointments that I also didn't express. Eventually I decided he was never going to get it (without having any awareness that I was expecting him to just know), and I started down the road with another source. And, honestly thank goodness it had ended and I did not end up with that man. He would have been a terrible choice.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:03 PM, Tuesday, August 16th]

It is, but she will be in a different phase with it likely soon. I went from guarded to taking risks again, but more intelligently. She is learning what doesn't work, and not doing that. The next phase will be trying to replace those behaviors and she will awkwardly practice that for a while too likely. There is no getting to the other side without a lot of failure. That's why we keep refocusing you towards detachment. Detachment is a phase in recovery when you learn that noone is going to protect you but you.

In time, she needs to express everything even things you might have a negative reaction. For now, she can’t trust what she says not to cause an unexpected result because of her skewed perception. At this point, it’s a good compromise until she can figure herself out.

I'm looking forward to that then. She's often either being defensive and saying incredible insensitive nonsense or staring like a deer in the headlights.

Even last night during the conversation I described, there was a tone of defensiveness from her. My questions frustrate her and it's clearly because the answers she's giving make her feel uncomfortable.

It's because she is ALSO in denial and bargaining. Every time she can make a brave admission to herself like "I didn't love my husband" then it brings it to the forefront to be processed. It's something she is now aware of and a lot of this is her bringing things into her awareness so that she can process them and start modifying.

I think that's exactly what happened to her last night. She got up and took care of both kids this morning to let me sleep in--she texted me at one point: "I suspect however bad I feel, you feel worse; so I don't mind dealing with the kids."

It struck me in that moment how awful she must feel having made the admission that she hasn't loved me for so long. If she was truly done with our relationship, I'd imagine she wouldn't feel anything at all after that admission. Or it would be more relief than hurt.

Oh hell no. It made him seem like a hypocrite to me. Let me explain something because you don't know the story really. After my affair, I immediately put myself in IC. Two months later I confessed against the advice of my IC. I hoped that I could keep my marriage and I just didn't see how that was possible unless I gave him all the information and we proceeded together. By about 8-9 months out I was getting remorseful. People here talk about it like it's binary, but it's more gradual. I started to realize the damage I did, and was able to get curious about it without being overwhelmed with shame. This was my own first strokes of mindfullness. His affair started 18 months into R, but I didn't know it or even suspect it until we were 3 years out. By that time, I was already where I am now, give or take.

I mean my understanding deepened maybe some by having had the shoe on the other foot. It was a true blindside for me, he'd given me a new ring by then, we'd bought an RV to travel in together, we had a lot of deep conversations, etc. If anything it was disconcerting that we seemed so connected. During my affair we were not connected and I couldn't hide things were not okay. The fact he could was a very hard thing for me to relate to.

However, because I knew the ws playbook, I pretty much went 180 on him. Our affairs were very different, but I did know that he needed to do the same work, and I knew I needed to see that because I already knew that I would never believe he wanted this without something major happening.

Had I discovered the affair earlier in the process, we would have divorced. But, because I was very stable and clear by then and had done everything to save it already, I placed value on doing the same for him. But, fuck no, no respect over what he did. In fact, some would argue that he knew the pain he was inflicting, where as the typical WS hasn't experienced it and can much easier tell themselves stories about how the spouse would never find out and that it wouldn't hurt them as bad for whatever reason they think.

Got it--I forgot that his affair went on for so long.

From my perspective, an affair now would be a strange choice for me. It's not like the secrecy would allow me to save something of value. My WW doesn't love me, and if I was having an affair, it would clearly be mutual. So why bother with the deception? Nothing good is waiting at the end of that path. I wonder what your husband thought he was accomplishing.

I also don't feel justified or entitled to have one. I find that framing strange because it ignores my morality. Again, I choose not to have an affair because it's *wrong*--that I now know how badly it would hurt my spouse is a cherry on top perhaps, but it's not a reason.

If an affair for me is no longer wrong because my wife had an affair, then it was never wrong for me to have an affair. External events can't change my morality (outside of extreme examples). Why would her affair be a better justification for my affair than her emotional abuse in the bedroom for a decade? An affair is either always ok or never ok--and the former position is illogical based on agreements made during marriage.

She can't use tools she hasn't gained yet. Her instincts will not change until she has awareness over specific things and has time to practice mindfulness so she can reframe them and process them differently.

I'm not referencing a tool though. I'm suggesting she knows with certainty her thought process is shit. She quite literally has a gang of people in her life telling her that and she's reading books that reinforce it. It's known. So why continue to double down and bet on your own flawed mental process?

So if she says something insensitive or unempathetic and I tell her that, wouldn't a reasonable person at this point pause and disengage? Why would she ever argue back at this point to defend her position?

Yes, I believe that is possible. I used to get bashed as the ws for saying this, sex was never a motivating factor for me. I didn't care about having sex with the AP. What I did care about was getting my ego kibbles. (There is a current thread in general called why are affairs so addictive, I described that part in detail in that post so I will save myself retyping it, but if you are interested the process of what happened is described there.

I read your post in the other thread. I largely agree with it, but from afar, it does read like a first-person account--meaning, the affair and the AP are things that happened to you in your life rather than things you participated in equally with another person. Your AP had a whole set of justifications for the affair as well. The two of you found each other.

I think it's easy to fall into that trap--I know my WW does it to herself. So sure, my WW wanted to raise AP up and knock me down--but AP didn't do that to his BW. He never had a bad word to say about her--she was a lovely wife and mother. He wasn't interested in that form of justification; he just wanted to have a hot girl blow him. So what should his BW make of that? It's a very different narrative.

My point is you can line up the two people in an affair and find all kinds of justifications why each person is participating--some may align, some may not. In my WW's case, both were people that struggle with addiction, but I don't think that's a silver bullet either. I could go have sex with someone right now--free will and all--and addiction isn't my vice. I just wonder if we're too quick to throw labels at people who participate in affairs. It's a roundabout way of taking blame off their shoulders and putting it onto their traits.

FWIW, all I see is weakness.

Okay, so I thought IF he found out there might be some consequences. I was very naive about what they were, and I didn't spend any time evaluating it. Because I just thought I was smart and clever and could take it to my grave. This is out of that cheaters handbook I referenced in my other post. Almost 100 percent of the time that is our answer, and it's both absurd and truthful. But you aren't a logical person when you have an affair, you are walking contradiction. Cognitive dissonance on full display.

Yea, that's in parallel to her thinking.

That's true. She didn't. She felt entitled because she allowed resentments to build over the years and likely didn't do anything to effectively resolve them. It lead to the hardening of not feeling the loving feelings six months before the affair. I believe that because it also was my experience and I do not have a reason to lie. If you look at most WS's there is almost always some perceived imbalance in the relationship that gives them some sort of martyrdom that makes them feel like they have a right to do something special for themselves. And yes, I can see how moronic that is, but it would be a rare WS that had good emotional intelligence or self awareness. We tend to have victim mentalities.

Her IC thought it was a bad idea to tell me she fell out of love with me about six months before the affair. That's a baffling mindset. My WW feels her goal should be to lead with love and get to R, but she doesn't understand that we'll never get there as long as she's the victim and incapable of developing her emotional maturity.

I had no interest in sex with other men either. In fact, I didn't really even fantasize about it at all prior to my affair, or after my affair. Sex was a tool in my affair to make the AP think I was this great find. I used sex to manipulate him. Did I think that at the time? No, no real introspection is there during the affair, we avoid it like the plague. But, the sex was not my motivation then. If someone asked me six months out if I would miss how the AP made me feel, that would have been a yes. But it had nothing to do with the AP and more to do with the conditioning that I talk about in that addiction post.

I have no interest in golfing, but if a business opportunity arose, I might find myself on a golf course this afternoon. You may not have had a traditional interest in sex--as in you didn't want the carnal pleasure--but you had an interest in sex in that it provided you with a perceived benefit at the time. I wonder why you parse that out.

I also suspect my WW had somewhat more interest in the sex than you did.

Maybe? For me, it wasn't that way. I knew we were going to have sex, I don't deny any of that. I didn't care about the sex for sake of sex. I mean to be honest, I had a great sex life with H. That wasn't lacking for me. As for wanting to develop a growing emotional bond, I don't think I would describe it that way either. I think the best thing I could describe is that I wanted to seem like this sexy ideal woman, and honestly it was another way I could ramp up him thinking how great I am. It's was more self adulation for me. I didn't see it as a way I could bond with him more?

Also, I can be more reserved sexually with a new partner until I am comfortable. It's almost impossible for me to climax with a new partner until we have been together many times. This has always been the case. I mean we were swinger for 2 years and I remember climaxing one time and it was with someone we'd been seeing for a year. My reasoning for swinging was the same reason I had an affair. I wanted to seem like an ideal sexy woman, because I didn't think I was worth enough on my own. That kicked in a little bit with the AP too.

I have been accused of minimizing from several men on this site, but this is not minimization. This is how I was wired. Considering sex has always been a tool for your wife, it's not hard to believe it would be with the AP. In the long run, for myself it didnt matter my motivation, my behaviors were abhorrent and devastating. I don't minimize that a bit.

She had the "best sex of her life" and was chaining orgasms all night long. Which is why an argument that she wasn't pursuing the affair for the sex is a bit hollow. Perhaps it shouldn't matter, but it matters to me in understanding her motives.

I'm looking forward to that then. She's often either being defensive and saying incredible insensitive nonsense or staring like a deer in the headlights.

Even last night during the conversation I described, there was a tone of defensiveness from her. My questions frustrate her and it's clearly because the answers she's giving make her feel uncomfortable.

For me, it was more than just being uncomfortable. I think most WS have low self worth. I have said before being overly selfish or overly selfless are just symptoms of the same problem. So, I had an affair so someone could give me a false sense of self worth. Did I know that conciously? No. But I know it with great clarity now.

So, when you have the affair and caught, that self worth is at the bottom of the ocean somewhere. Feelings of shame were overwhelming, and any time I was dealing with him, it was difficult for me to see past that lens. Every single interaction was just proof of what a piece of shit I was.

It's not helpful. Not at all. Navel gazing just keeps you depressed and keeps you from being able to connect to your BS's pain. Reading here, it seems like most WS start feeling remorse somewhere around the 6-7 month mark. Some will claim their WS had it immediately, but I think they see guilt or regret. Some get it much later but on average you could set a watch by it. I don't know why that is, but it's also around the time BS seem to leave denial and shock and I think the two things are interrelated in some ways.

So, through IC as I developed self compassion, meaning that my shame was dissipating, I was finally able to start looking at what I did to him in the eye. Not every WS would and just because I am writing this doesn't mean it will be the exact same way for your wife. I feel like I am here to say what I think is possible, but I don't obviously know your wife.

I think that's exactly what happened to her last night. She got up and took care of both kids this morning to let me sleep in--she texted me at one point: "I suspect however bad I feel, you feel worse; so I don't mind dealing with the kids."

It struck me in that moment how awful she must feel having made the admission that she hasn't loved me for so long. If she was truly done with our relationship, I'd imagine she wouldn't feel anything at all after that admission. Or it would be more relief than hurt.

I think it's a difference of focus. So, prior to my affair recovery I was looking for people to make me feel good. If they did it and were successful I equated it with love. However, love is not that as I have said. Your husband is your family, and that commitment and effort and what you do for him is how you actually experience love. If you are whole on your own, and so are they, then neither of you have to focus on someone making you feel good, this is when the marriage can be balanced.

So, I would argue the reading, the trying to be more mindful, and through the few selfless things she manages to do is actually making her experience love, whether she realizes it or not. Saying you don't love someone is just a matter of feelings. Love is an action. That's why I say I didn't love my husband during the affair, it was evident in my actions. But, after my affair, I have to say I put a lot of effort into trying to help him and that's when I pin point that I was started loving towards him. We get butterflies by the doing, not as much through the receiving. WS have a broken sense of love because they are often focused more on the receiving. It's because they don't have it to give it to themselves.

From my perspective, an affair now would be a strange choice for me. It's not like the secrecy would allow me to save something of value. My WW doesn't love me, and if I was having an affair, it would clearly be mutual. So why bother with the deception? Nothing good is waiting at the end of that path. I wonder what your husband thought he was accomplishing.

Noone goes into an affair thinking they are accomplishing something. It starts as a slippery slide that they just keep making deliberate choices to go down. In my H's case, the lady was our employee and she was in our house with him working on different things. She had access to all our accounts for one, and I think she thought by pursuing him she was going to get a new lifestyle. She wanted my life. She discovered my affair and what was happening, and saw it as an opportunity to pursue him. I think at first it really just felt good to him. After all the bullshit I did to him, I think he was at a low point and he started down that slide. Just because she was an aggressor, doesn't mean that he has taken less of the blame. He just kept going. Now, by the end I do truly believe he wanted it just to go away. I think it's why he wanted to buy the RV. But, I don't think he thought it out, he chased validation same as I did. I think it was more sexual to him, and he was less emotionally attached, but he was somewhat. In some ways the way he talks about it sounds like a bit of pity to me, but he has a history of Knight in Shining Armor type behaviors.

If an affair for me is no longer wrong because my wife had an affair, then it was never wrong for me to have an affair. External events can't change my morality (outside of extreme examples). Why would her affair be a better justification for my affair than her emotional abuse in the bedroom for a decade? An affair is either always ok or never ok--and the former position is illogical based on agreements made during marriage.

I agree with you. That's why I felt it made him a hypocrite. What you are describing is integrity. I think that some people have it in all circumstances. Some people just think they have it and will bend a situation with cognitive dissonance until it's only recognizable as mental gymnastics. This is why I didn't buy into he had an affair because I did. I will say the trauma of my affair was what had put him in the bad place, but that is all I accept.

I'm not referencing a tool though. I'm suggesting she knows with certainty her thought process is shit. She quite literally has a gang of people in her life telling her that and she's reading books that reinforce it. It's known. So why continue to double down and bet on your own flawed mental process?

So if she says something insensitive or unempathetic and I tell her that, wouldn't a reasonable person at this point pause and disengage? Why would she ever argue back at this point to defend her position?

Well it's two things, some of it is tools. I disagree with that. Coping mechanisms. And, you can read something and logically understand but to integrate it into your thought process is another. In the second sentence where she defends her position, that's the shame/self worth thing. Every single admission is painful because there is all this shame. That defensiveness is a false way of trying to make herself seem better. She is trying to convince herself of that as much as she is trying to convince you. When she stops navel gazing, and has gained some self compassion, that will not be her knee jerk reaction. But, right now she is very much in the trying to bargain with herself that she isn't a terrible person.

And the truth is we all have dark and light. She has done some terribly destructive things. She has to rewire herself to think that the more honesty she can convey the prouder she will be of herself. She will slowly begin to respect herself as she creates that consistency. Right now she is too afraid of losing the marriage. She is also afraid of taking full accountability for a couple of reasons. One, as I said it reinforces her feelings of worthlessness, but also she is afraid of what that means about your relationship dynamics moving forward.

I read your post in the other thread. I largely agree with it, but from afar, it does read like a first-person account--meaning, the affair and the AP are things that happened to you in your life rather than things you participated in equally with another person. Your AP had a whole set of justifications for the affair as well. The two of you found each other.

I think it's easy to fall into that trap--I know my WW does it to herself. So sure, my WW wanted to raise AP up and knock me down--but AP didn't do that to his BW. He never had a bad word to say about her--she was a lovely wife and mother. He wasn't interested in that form of justification; he just wanted to have a hot girl blow him. So what should his BW make of that? It's a very different narrative.

That is a good point, I do actually have full accountability that those were all decisions. I think where it might get fuzzy for the reader is there came a point that no real decision making was in place other than chasing those highs. But, I believe I stated up front that you can't become a herion addict without deciding to take herion. I absolutely had control. In the end, I did not have control. I had a lot of obsessive, intrusive thoughts that I did not want to have. I wanted off the ride. But again, I don't think that part is how it is with your wife. I think many WS who have it the way I did end up being bunny boilers and stalkers. I just got control by seeking treatment where many do not. So, again, there are definite decsions.

And, yes, as I said a lot of people have affairs without limerence. Statistically speaking, limerance is higher in females. Males are better at compartmentalization. Like in my husband's affair, I think he had some fondness for the lady, but it wasn't a full blown EA type situation. There are levels to everything. I had "emotional exhaustion" (nice words they now use for nervous breakdown prior to the affair and the OCD, so mine just was textbook addiction. I think your wife had an EA, and that was primarily what she was seeking. She probably believed herself to be in love, but it wasn't love. It was her trying to get her good feelings from someone else. I used that post as an example, but I don't think it was exactly the same. Mrs. Walloped described feeling high, and even your Wife's AP got high from it. But, some people can do things without a full blown addiction. I don't know if that makes sense.

My point is you can line up the two people in an affair and find all kinds of justifications why each person is participating--some may align, some may not. In my WW's case, both were people that struggle with addiction, but I don't think that's a silver bullet either. I could go have sex with someone right now--free will and all--and addiction isn't my vice. I just wonder if we're too quick to throw labels at people who participate in affairs. It's a roundabout way of taking blame off their shoulders and putting it onto their traits.

I do not think of it that way because I have researched it, been treated for it, and have experienced it. But, I do not justify deciding to have the affair in the first place, or that I had no integrity, or that I didn't love my husband, or any of that. But, addiction to love or sex is a chemical dependency, there is a lot of science behind it and factual evidence of it. They have studied brainwave activity as well as the accumulation of cases where such a vast number of people reacted the exact same way. There is just too much you can't explain away with the opinion you have. I understand your opinion, but it doesn't compete with the factual information that is out there.

FWIW, all I see is weakness.

Yes, all addictions are weakness. The person doesn't have good coping skills, and they prop themselves up with the addiction until they can't function without it. So, I don't disagree it is a weakness. Most recovered addicts, including myself, are stronger, more self aware, and emotionally intelligent than a big portion of the population. We have taken ourselves to hell and back by being weak, and have learned and mastered some very hard lessons. I don't disagree I was weak, but I also understand what made me that way and have fixed those things. So, it's a matter of perspective.

I have no interest in golfing, but if a business opportunity arose, I might find myself on a golf course this afternoon. You may not have had a traditional interest in sex--as in you didn't want the carnal pleasure--but you had an interest in sex in that it provided you with a perceived benefit at the time. I wonder why you parse that out.

It's not parsed out really, I am just saying it wasn't my focus or my motivation. I also said it didn't matter the motivation. And, it doesn't in the long run.

She had the "best sex of her life" and was chaining orgasms all night long. Which is why an argument that she wasn't pursuing the affair for the sex is a bit hollow. Perhaps it shouldn't matter, but it matters to me in understanding her motives.

The reason I say the motives do not matter is because the whys have nothing to do with the motives. I am not telling you what should or shouldn't be important to you. But the reality is the whys are far more removed from the specifics of the affair. The whys are things like entitlement, lack of integrity, low self worth, etc. I can never fix the motives of my affair. I can however, fix the character traits, negative thought patterns and conditioning that would lead me to ever do it again.

But, again, as a BS the concerns are different, so I don't feel what you are saying is wrong or off base.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:14 PM, Tuesday, August 16th]

For me, it was more than just being uncomfortable. I think most WS have low self worth. I have said before being overly selfish or overly selfless are just symptoms of the same problem. So, I had an affair so someone could give me a false sense of self worth. Did I know that conciously? No. But I know it with great clarity now.

So, when you have the affair and caught, that self worth is at the bottom of the ocean somewhere. Feelings of shame were overwhelming, and any time I was dealing with him, it was difficult for me to see past that lens. Every single interaction was just proof of what a piece of shit I was.

It's not helpful. Not at all. Navel gazing just keeps you depressed and keeps you from being able to connect to your BS's pain. Reading here, it seems like most WS start feeling remorse somewhere around the 6-7 month mark. Some will claim their WS had it immediately, but I think they see guilt or regret. Some get it much later but on average you could set a watch by it. I don't know why that is, but it's also around the time BS seem to leave denial and shock and I think the two things are interrelated in some ways.

So, through IC as I developed self compassion, meaning that my shame was dissipating, I was finally able to start looking at what I did to him in the eye. Not every WS would and just because I am writing this doesn't mean it will be the exact same way for your wife. I feel like I am here to say what I think is possible, but I don't obviously know your wife.

That's fair. I think that's why I need to see more than what I've seen already from her though. I need to see some significant steps in remorse--beyond just fleeting moments. I have a fear of drifting along in this relationship lost at sea for an extended period of time. I understand a separation would be time consuming and horrible--it's not something I'd go into lightly, but it's also not something I want to put off without cause.

I keep writing this, but I need proof of life.

Noone goes into an affair thinking they are accomplishing something. It starts as a slippery slide that they just keep making deliberate choices to go down. In my H's case, the lady was our employee and she was in our house with him working on different things. She had access to all our accounts for one, and I think she thought by pursuing him she was going to get a new lifestyle. She wanted my life. She discovered my affair and what was happening, and saw it as an opportunity to pursue him. I think at first it really just felt good to him. After all the bullshit I did to him, I think he was at a low point and he started down that slide. Just because she was an aggressor, doesn't mean that he has taken less of the blame. He just kept going. Now, by the end I do truly believe he wanted it just to go away. I think it's why he wanted to buy the RV. But, I don't think he thought it out, he chased validation same as I did. I think it was more sexual to him, and he was less emotionally attached, but he was somewhat. In some ways the way he talks about it sounds like a bit of pity to me, but he has a history of Knight in Shining Armor type behaviors.

I don't think that's true. If I went into an affair during my marriage, I would have done it with the goal of resolving my sexual frustration. I would have had purpose. I won't opine on your husband's reasons though.

I agree with you. That's why I felt it made him a hypocrite. What you are describing is integrity. I think that some people have it in all circumstances. Some people just think they have it and will bend a situation with cognitive dissonance until it's only recognizable as mental gymnastics. This is why I didn't buy into he had an affair because I did. I will say the trauma of my affair was what had put him in the bad place, but that is all I accept.

My point was that your husband was no more a hypocrite than you though. You both exchanged vows and broke them. You both had justifications for doing so. You both lacked integrity.

Was his affair more cruel than yours because he knew how badly it hurt? Perhaps; but I'd argue yours was far more damaging because it destroyed the innocence of your marriage.

I don't write that to make you feel bad (I sense that you're passed feeling bad about it, so I'm writing candidly)--I just think you're downplaying the impact of being the first offender. You can never put the toothpaste back in the tube and your husband was never capable of inflicting the harm you did because the marriage had changed drastically following your affair.

Well it's two things, some of it is tools. I disagree with that. Coping mechanisms. And, you can read something and logically understand but to integrate it into your thought process is another. In the second sentence where she defends her position, that's the shame/self worth thing. Every single admission is painful because there is all this shame. That defensiveness is a false way of trying to make herself seem better. She is trying to convince herself of that as much as she is trying to convince you. When she stops navel gazing, and has gained some self compassion, that will not be her knee jerk reaction. But, right now she is very much in the trying to bargain with herself that she isn't a terrible person.

And the truth is we all have dark and light. She has done some terribly destructive things. She has to rewire herself to think that the more honesty she can convey the prouder she will be of herself. She will slowly begin to respect herself as she creates that consistency. Right now she is too afraid of losing the marriage. She is also afraid of taking full accountability for a couple of reasons. One, as I said it reinforces her feelings of worthlessness, but also she is afraid of what that means about your relationship dynamics moving forward.

I think you're spot on. She is bargaining with herself. She doesn't want it all to be as bad as it is.

That is a good point, I do actually have full accountability that those were all decisions. I think where it might get fuzzy for the reader is there came a point that no real decision making was in place other than chasing those highs. But, I believe I stated up front that you can't become a herion addict without deciding to take herion. I absolutely had control. In the end, I did not have control. I had a lot of obsessive, intrusive thoughts that I did not want to have. I wanted off the ride. But again, I don't think that part is how it is with your wife. I think many WS who have it the way I did end up being bunny boilers and stalkers. I just got control by seeking treatment where many do not. So, again, there are definite decsions.

And, yes, as I said a lot of people have affairs without limerence. Statistically speaking, limerance is higher in females. Males are better at compartmentalization. Like in my husband's affair, I think he had some fondness for the lady, but it wasn't a full blown EA type situation. There are levels to everything. I had "emotional exhaustion" (nice words they now use for nervous breakdown prior to the affair and the OCD, so mine just was textbook addiction. I think your wife had an EA, and that was primarily what she was seeking. She probably believed herself to be in love, but it wasn't love. It was her trying to get her good feelings from someone else. I used that post as an example, but I don't think it was exactly the same. Mrs. Walloped described feeling high, and even your Wife's AP got high from it. But, some people can do things without a full blown addiction. I don't know if that makes sense.

We agree. My WW still doesn't understand that though. She doesn't quite get that there was a failing inside her that led her on the path--inside I still think she probably blames me partially for not giving her the emotional support she needed. She felt entitled to it. She'd never admit any of that--though she said that in the first days following D-Day.

I do not think of it that way because I have researched it, been treated for it, and have experienced it. But, I do not justify deciding to have the affair in the first place, or that I had no integrity, or that I didn't love my husband, or any of that. But, addiction to love or sex is a chemical dependency, there is a lot of science behind it and factual evidence of it. They have studied brainwave activity as well as the accumulation of cases where such a vast number of people reacted the exact same way. There is just too much you can't explain away with the opinion you have. I understand your opinion, but it doesn't compete with the factual information that is out there.

That doesn't counter my point.

Take an easy example: sugar. We all love to eat a piece of chocolate cake. We'd perhaps eat it every day if it wouldn't make us look like shit and shorten our life spans. So we restrain and eat chocolate cake in moderation. Those who don't, suffer the consequences. And that's on them, not the addiction to sugar. Just because one has a desire to consume sugar, doesn't absolve one from the consequences or allow one to blame-shift to addiction.

In your example of heroin, it's the same, just a stronger addiction. I highly doubt I'd become an addict of heroin after a hit, but I don't have the hubris to test my theory, so I just avoid it. If I became an addict though, it's all on *me*.

And in both cases, sugar and heroine, I'm not suggesting obese people and drug addicts don't deserve compassion--they do--but there's no reason to blame addiction.

So sure, sex feels good. People can be addicted to the feeling of having sex. Why can't those people have sex with their spouses? By pointing to an affair as an addiction, it's no worse than any of the other silly justifications cheaters make. It being backed by science doesn't make it any less silly. Accountability is required across the board.

Yes, all addictions are weakness. The person doesn't have good coping skills, and they prop themselves up with the addiction until they can't function without it. So, I don't disagree it is a weakness. Most recovered addicts, including myself, are stronger, more self aware, and emotionally intelligent than a big portion of the population. We have taken ourselves to hell and back by being weak, and have learned and mastered some very hard lessons. I don't disagree I was weak, but I also understand what made me that way and have fixed those things. So, it's a matter of perspective.

I think that's absolutely true, but notice how you now feel superior to "a big portion of the population." No doubt you've put in the hard work--it's notable to anyone who reads your posts--but plenty of others take a different path to the integrity you've found without fiery destruction in the wake. You had a large mountain to climb, but not everyone has the same starting point.

I can never fix the motives of my affair. I can however, fix the character traits, negative thought patterns and conditioning that would lead me to ever do it again.

I think that's really wise. I hadn't thought of it like that, so it's appreciated.

First, I do have complete accountability over my affair. The recovery was where I felt the addiction struggle. I don’t blame my actions on addiction. I explain how the addiction was formed and fed. The intrusive obsessive thinking in the aftermath was not a decision, It was a battle that I legitimately fought as part of the consequences of my decisions. You dismiss it all out of hand without any education about it.

My affair was 100 percent a decision I made. I can’t have told you half the things I have without full accountability over all the shitty things I thought and did. So I have no idea why you would even think that, but you don’t know me so it’s whatever.

Second. I didn’t say I wasn’t a hypocrite. You have no idea some of the things he said to me after my affair but then turned around and did it for longer, in my house, with our employee, with no condoms and having sex with me the same day.

So, I can call him a hypocrite, he was. I could be stupid and still know someone else is stupid. . I wasn’t talking about myself because at that point we were not talking about my affair.

So if you have ever done something horrible, and then learned how horrible you would understand that conviction can be even stronger. This was hitting me 3 years later.

You know like an inch of what happened. I have read 100 plus pages of your situation.

Third, it’s not hypocritical for me to expect the same things from him that he required of me in the recovery of his affair. I do feel it’s normal to have feelings about someone cheating on you. And I have a right to make sure that I am married to a safe partner just as he did and you do.

I don’t think of him as a hypocrite now, I think he has taken accountability and has done a lot of work that was effective. I realize it sounded more present tense than I was thinking about it.

Fourth, I didn’t speak about the damage I created there because you asked me about my husbands affair. I fully understand I broke it first and anyone who was here at the time it happened knows that and you can find posts that I wrote about that here endlessly.

I blamed myself for his affair for a very long time. But his decision to cheat as his decision. I left this site when people wouldn’t let me blame myself because I couldn’t internalize it.

Fifth, you read my comment about strength in a way that is devoid of knowing me. I am actually a very humble person. My point was to illustrate that it’s possible to go from one way to another, not to inflate myself to be this great person. Truthfully I still work hard on myself and feel I wasted a lot of my life on very stupid shit, and I agree that I was weak. But you are seeing me some through the lens of your own experience with your wife.

I do not think I am better than anyone but I do respect myself for that mountain that I did climb. And I do know that lots of people do it without being destructive. I feel a little in that comment you felt the need to put me in my place. I can’t fathom why but maybe it’s some sort of anger at your wife that you have to let out on me. I can handle that, as you said I am far past processing all of this.

Lastly, I agree with you not all affairs have the slippery slope, I had meant to indicate that specifically for EA/PA’s. I thought it was clear we were discussing that kind of affair. I don’t think what I said applies to predatory serial cheaters or people who seek out purely sexual affairs. So when I read what I wrote I understood why you took it that way. His did, mine did, and I assumed your wife’s did. I didn’t think I needed to specify.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:35 AM, Wednesday, August 17th]

I'm constantly trying to understand her. It may be a misstep, but I'm not willing to be frivolous with my time. I'm gathering information so I can make a decision about my future.

Good. Stay in Observation mode, not in Caretaker mode (i.e. don't try to guide).

My WW could stay in her haze the rest of her life. I need proof of life from her to remain.

What would you consider to be 'proof of life'? How much proof do you think you will need? Am only asking these questions, to prompt you to think about it (if you have not already done so).

As I've noted, the first six months are my gift to my children. After that, she needs to prove to me it's worth my time.

I have bolded the part where your thinking seems to have a glitch. The time the WS has to 'prove' themselves, is from DDay. What you have given her is a freebie 6mths, then an undetermined amount of 'proving' time.

I have posted this many times, and will keep posting it. The amount of effort a WS puts into trying to earn a chance at R, gives an indication of how much they want that chance. Huge effort = Huge want. Low effort = Low want.

From your posts to date, your WW has plucked the low hanging fruit for changes, but now the effort seems to have petered out somewhat. She is still trying, but she seems to be disheartened, and hence, puts in less effort.

Will stop posting in this thread for a while again, as it seems to be better to walk away and come back later with a fresh set of eyes/perspective. Perhaps it might be helpful for you also... like what your Italian trip did for you.

Doc, those little digs you made towards Hiking were unfair. Projection maybe?

You're fairly new here. Hiking has been here for years. Anyone who has followed her journey will tell you what I am telling you. She is one of the very few WS here that truly gets it. That is truly remorseful. She has been very open about her process,and it has been nothing short of inspiring. Those digs? Maybe..certainly..they apply to your wife. They do not apply to hiking,in any way.

She has gone out of her way to help you. I admit, I don't agree with some of what she has said,but that doesn't negate the value in her words.

Lastly, you've mentioned me a few times. You seem annoyed that I keep pointing out the same thing. I'm doing it because it keeps happening. I point it out, you make excuses for her, you say you've had this big talk,and you think she now understands, then she does it again. And again. I'm pointing it out because for all the hours long talks,all the IC, all the MC, all the books,all the reading here..no progress is being made. It's still happening. She takes her cue afterwards, and apologizes, but the fact that it keeps happening is the problem. Not her response afterwards.

But, at the risk of being obnoxious again, I will stop pointing it out. It's become a bit repetitive for me as well.

@Stich, I've thought about your post a lot over the last few days:

I'm not sure how it is in your case. Is that kink part of you, or is it a part of the damage you've received through the years? Because you've received a lot of damage even before the affair - there is no doubt about it. Whether it's part of damage or not, I think a large part of healing everybody mentions is finding these wounds so you can heal them.

I spent a good deal of time in IC discussing my kink and my IC has framed it in a way that perhaps my kink manifested my WW's affair--not in a way of blaming me, but in a way of connecting the dots of my behavior and corresponding unintended consequences. I have struggled with it, replaying the last decade in my head and trying to bear the appropriate weight for my actions--because unlike my WW's, I have control of them.

Your post let me step back and view my cuckold/submissive fetish instead as a possible symptom rather than a cause. Did I have underlying feelings of sexual inadequacy with my wife that I transferred into a sexual kink? I honestly don't know. In fact, I'm not even sure of where to begin.

I've never consciously thought of myself as sexually inadequate--certainly not prior to my marriage--and I *think* the feelings of being sexually aroused at the idea of sexual inadequacy pre-date my WW's emotional abuse in the bedroom, but it's funny how one's mind can play tricks when trying to recall feelings from so long ago. And as I noted in my first response to your post, I have no idea how my sexual feelings in my teenage years helped to carve out my sexual future.

What I do think is true is that the affair really falls under the umbrella of my WW's abuse--it's not it's own thing. I've spent so much time dissecting her motives; it wasn't until HikingOut's perceptive comment yesterday regarding motives that it clicked for me. Why my WW had the affair is irrelevant; why she justified the affair is relevant to her; and what the affair did to me is relevant to me. And I suspect what it did to me was potentially reaffirm the sexual inadequacy that may have been lurking underneath the surface.

Perhaps that's the "focus on yourself" stuff I've been missing all this time.

Doc, those little digs you made towards Hiking were unfair. Projection maybe?

You're fairly new here. Hiking has been here for years. Anyone who has followed her journey will tell you what I am telling you. She is one of the very few WS here that truly gets it. That is truly remorseful. She has been very open about her process,and it has been nothing short of inspiring. Those digs? Maybe..certainly..they apply to your wife. They do not apply to hiking,in any way.

She has gone out of her way to help you. I admit, I don't agree with some of what she has said,but that doesn't negate the value in her words.

I'll start by noting this--and it's especially true of both you and HikingOut--I feel very close to both of you. You're the two posters who have had the biggest impact on me these last five months. And that's for a variety of reasons, including the frequency of your posts. Ultimately, I think of you both as a Yin and Yang of perspective keeping me centered. HikingOut has provided invaluable perspective on what my WW is going through and you have very often re-enforced and clarified many of my own instincts.

I feel like in a few months I've developed deep--although admittedly superficial--friendships with both of you. I write to you both *very* candidly and I perhaps shouldn't. You're both ultimately strangers on the internet.

I'll continue to be honest here though because it's all I know how to do.

I was very upset at HikingOut's last response last night as it was immediately clear I had hurt her. I'd rather stop posting here all together than upset someone who has been as supportive as her. I immediately sent her an apology PM and logged off for the night.

This morning, I re-read my last post to her. I do not think I made digs at her because that implies I intended to insult and hurt her. I understand that's how both of you read it--but all I can note is that was not my intention nor is it how I interpret it with fresh eyes today. I'm open to exploring it further and breaking down the exchange, but I suspect that would have minimal benefit at this point.

As you note, I'm new here, so there's an expectation that I'm the student. And quite honestly, that's how I typically feel. But I've always been an intellectually curious student. I went to an all-boys catholic high school and recall spending an entire year arguing with my ethics teacher about whether a "lion can be more or less lioness" (long story)--ultimately, that teacher made me realize I was an atheist. The point though is that I examine virtually everything I'm being taught. I assume nothing and question everything. It has it's benefits and downsides, but it's how my brain works and I make great effort for it not to destroy all of my relationships.

There was a lot going on in Hiking Out's last post. Some of it I found profound, but some of it I found untrue. An agreeable person would focus on the good and disregard the point of disagreement. I'm not an agreeable person. So I pushed back in some areas.

It's a combination of a perceived closeness I had to her and my desire to write plainly. In retrospect, I suspect my failing was in the arena of the former, not the later, so my tone should have been adjusted a bit.

Lastly:

You seem annoyed that I keep pointing out the same thing.

Not at all. And that's on me.

When I note you in my posts as repeating the same things, it's not from exhaustion or annoyance, it's to point out that there's very likely some truth to it and I shouldn't ignore it--quite literally, it's because I respect your opinion, even when I find it inconvenient. I thought that was the context of how I referenced you in one of my responses to HikingOut. I apologize for not being more clear in how I felt.

**

Writing this post out has a familiar feel. I suspect I struggle with taking people for granted. That's my projection though--because when I'm loyal to someone, I want them to take me for granted--I want someone to know that nothing they say or do can break the bond we have. It's a feeling of family and it's how I treat my family and close friends: unconditional. It's also how I treated my wife; perhaps that's why she didn't always feel the love I had for her and looked to seek love elsewhere.

Not everyone is me though. I wasn't projecting my WW onto HikingOut in my response; I was projecting how I want HikingOut to feel she can write to me. I don't want kid gloves; I want brass knuckles.

I've written a lot on this website and I've received a lot of harsh posts back at me during that time. Only two of them really affected me--one was the implication that I should have divorced my wife earlier; the other was the suggestion that I should reconcile with my wife because we're both so broken that we should stay together to protect the rest of society. The arrogance and ignorance of those comments got to me.

Outside of that, it all rolls off my back and I move along. Again though, not everyone is me and I'd do better to remind myself of that more often.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 4:01 PM, Wednesday, August 17th]

What would you consider to be 'proof of life'? How much proof do you think you will need? Am only asking these questions, to prompt you to think about it (if you have not already done so).

I'm looking for a change in her thought process. I need her to get out of her perpetual victimization-mode and start owning responsibility. I'll give you an example.

Last night, she brought up her IC session yesterday. She noted that her resentments in our marriage were caused because she never communicated her needs to me. That caught my attention. She continued, noting that she discussed the example in IC of how she felt resentful toward me because much of the bourdon of getting our children to school fell on her. She was taking blame for not communicating to me that she *needed* help.

I disagree with her assessment. Jordan Peterson has given some great talks that touch on resentment and he points out that there are two possible causes for resentment:

1. You're emotionally immature and refuse to adopt responsibility; and you're whining about it.

2. You're being pushed around and enslaved by others.

So the first step is eliminating anything that falls into the first category (that's the victimization/entitlement category that my WW leans into). And you do that by determining if the responsibility you have is reasonable.

You examine it and figure it out immediately. Because if you ignore it or your assessment is wrong, you're building upon unfounded anger that is going to create horrible symptoms in the affected relationship--so you waste a tremendous amount of time resentful over something you shouldn't be angry about to begin with and you risk wasting even more time dealing with the fallout and symptoms created by that that anger.

Alternatively, for the second category, is someone mistreating you and forcing you to complete tasks that are inherently unfair? If so, address it--let go of the anger and let the person know how you feel before it becomes resentment. Do not let anyone push you around (this speaks to my WW's point about communicating a need).

So my WW arrived at the conclusion that her being tasked with getting the kids off to school was unfair treatment of her by me and that she should have resolved it by standing up for herself and communicating that there needed to be a change.

I strongly disagree. I think that's an example of the first category: whining about a responsibility.

As a mother, it is absolutely her responsibility to ensure her children get to school, just as she needs to ensure they're fed and clothed. All of it falls on her as a mother. So having anger about any of those tasks falls into the first category as something that should be examined and ultimately dismissed.

However, my WW also has a husband in me--a partner who shares those same responsibilities. That doesn't change her need to ensure they're completed, but it does give her a path to reasonably share the workload. So it's not about communicating a "need"--it's about communicating an efficient path to raising children with her partner. It's a *want*--and a reasonable one. One's partner should want to share the burden of childcare and both should want to support each other.

My point was that anger should never have been part of the equation. And without anger, she'd never have had resentment toward me over this issue.

And the truth is, I'd happily have helped more with getting the kids to school. It was made worse because my WW lied and told me she *wanted* to do it because on work days she barely gets to see them.

So there are a lot of problems with all of this. For one, she assumed I didn't want to do it and lied to make me not feel badly about her doing it--when I didn't care. And two, her anger was misguided anyway--I deal with the kids after school as she has a longer commute home; I also cook dinner for the entire family every night. So she gives 45 minutes to the kids every morning and I counterbalance that by giving two hours or so to them every evening.

If anything, the balance of responsibility falls on me, not her. I can't fathom thinking: "why do I always have to cook dinner?" It's my family and they need to eat--I don't get to not cook and I can't reasonably get angry for cooking.

Everything about her process of becoming angry about getting the kids to school was immature and everything about how she's examining it now is misguided.

My proof of life will be when she's consistently demonstrating that she can emotionally evolve.

I have bolded the part where your thinking seems to have a glitch. The time the WS has to 'prove' themselves, is from DDay. What you have given her is a freebie 6mths, then an undetermined amount of 'proving' time.

The six months was more or less--no matter what, I'm sticking it out for this time period. It gave her six months to fuck up without real repercussions.

I have posted this many times, and will keep posting it. The amount of effort a WS puts into trying to earn a chance at R, gives an indication of how much they want that chance. Huge effort = Huge want. Low effort = Low want.

From your posts to date, your WW has plucked the low hanging fruit for changes, but now the effort seems to have petered out somewhat. She is still trying, but she seems to be disheartened, and hence, puts in less effort.

I'm not sure. Truthfully, I have a hard time gauging her effort. I'm not sure it's even worthwhile anyway. It's more reliable and useful it seems to gauge the results.

Will stop posting in this thread for a while again, as it seems to be better to walk away and come back later with a fresh set of eyes/perspective. Perhaps it might be helpful for you also... like what your Italian trip did for you.

I suspect your right, but I had a lot of thoughts to write down today, so here I am. I will be spending the weekend with my college friends (annual fantasy football draft weekend), so I'll take a few days off at a minimum.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 6:14 PM, Wednesday, August 17th]

I have noticed a certain dynamic wrt sharing the load re children where I live. My observation is very specific, but I’ve drawn a generalized conclusion from it.

When both husband and wife are out with the child/children, the vast majority of the time the wife is pushing the stroller. However, I get the distinct sense that the dad really wants to push the stroller, but there is a power dynamic at play. And thus, I get the distinct sense that there is some underlying tension in these couples.

In the couples where the dad is pushing the stroller, they seem much more relaxed and in tune with each other, snd more often than not I see affection exchanged between these couples as they are walking.

Doc - In this light, I wonder if this wasn’t the type of dynamic at play with your WW. Playing the martyr wrt getting the kids off to school could snd should have been easily shared between the two of you, but your WW was looking for a reason to hold resentment, did not engage/allow you to share in this responsibility, thus furthering her resentment. Thus, a self fulfilling prophecy.

Hi- I get that you want me to take off my kids gloves. But in all honesty that would be very cruel of me to do that to a bh 6 months out. I do feel I get my message across. But a ws throwing 2 by 4’s too hard at a bh would likely make my message get lost.

You always do better when I keep my posts about your wife. You likely don’t see it, but it’s what I receive. I have thrown many 2 by 4’s about your wife, but keeping in mind I was in her shoes. I can’t exactly come at that holier than thou, because that too would seem hypocritical. Besides that’s not in my nature anyway, I have empathy for a ws because while I know they made destructive choices, I know they also destroyed so much for themselves in the process (unless they are a psychopath) I can’t have compassion for myself and not have compassion for them.

I also didn’t feel hurt, I felt confused by some of it. But I have been at this 10 times longer than you, it’s not unusual you don’t always understand where I am coming from. I do type my situation in shorthand because after being here so long most of the people I still know here know the details and supported me a lot. Hellfire being one of them, sometimes with important 2 by 4’s that helped me where I was stuck.

I don’t mind arguments. I don’t even mind that you felt it needed to be pointed out that I broke my marriage first or the other stuff. It’s true. I just felt you needed to hear back my thoughts on what you wrote. I keep in perspective that you are in the midst of the shit show, but you do need to understand that you don’t know very much about my situation. 5 years is a lot to cover.

Playing back I think what triggered wasn’t my ws stuff and you projecting your wife exactly. Maybe some. I think you were sensitive that I was a ws saying bad things about my bh. It may have also bothered you whether I was accountable to him because of some of the things I said that read to you like excuses. You have to remember he is also my ws. And the work I did on myself naturally made what he did reprehensible. That’s not hypocrisy because I know how much what I did was reprehensible. I hold us both to the same standard. But know if you ask how I feel about his affair, I don’t need to comment on mine at the same time always.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:23 PM, Wednesday, August 17th]

Doc - In this light, I wonder if this wasn’t the type of dynamic at play with your WW. Playing the martyr wrt getting the kids off to school could snd should have been easily shared between the two of you, but your WW was looking for a reason to hold resentment, did not engage/allow you to share in this responsibility, thus furthering her resentment. Thus, a self fulfilling prophecy.

Dude, I think that's precisely the issue. My WW has a lot of conflicting issues bouncing around her head. She wants everyone to know she's the best mom in the world, but she also wants a feeling of fairness in her relationship with me. It's a common factor I notice in entitled people; i.e. "I want the promotion at work, but I don't want to do more work than my colleagues."

I strongly suspect the reason she didn't ask me for hep with the kids is because she knows I'd have said yes--then what would that make her? In her mind: a bad mom.

I also want to stress the point that my WW will always have a problem. She needs something to complain about. If she resolves a problem, another emerges. It's an endless chain:

Her: The house work is too much for me, we need a cleaning service.
Me: Great idea, let's hire someone.
Her: We need the service more frequently; the service doesn't do the laundry; etc.

So now not only can she not resolve the problem, she needs me as an emotional sounding board for the ongoing issues that will always arise. If I step in to resolve it, I'm insensitive. She just wants me to listen to her vent. I can't recall ever complaining to her about the landscaper I hired lol. Her issues are always my issues; my issues aren't even on her radar (which I'm fine with--I have no desire to discuss our lawncare with her).

And she will never resolve the problem because even if she can eliminate all issues with cleaning the house, the free time she gains will go toward something else that she will find problems with.

I think we live a fairly blessed life: two healthy children; our parents all alive; expendable income; frequent vacations, etc. Life is good. She can't see the world through that lens.

HidkingOut, thank you for replying.

Hi- I get that you want me to take off my kids gloves. But in all honesty that would be very cruel of me to do that to a bh 6 months out. I do feel I get my message across. But a ws throwing 2 by 4’s too hard at a bh would likely make my message get lost.

I don't think it's cruel to hit me with a 2x4; but that doesn't mean I'll agree with the 2x4. I may sometimes think you're flat out wrong. Your response to that a couple of times has been an allusion to all the work and reading you've done--a badge you wear to imply your view is impregnable; I don't get to disagree because I'm the dumb one in the exchange. It's dismissive. And you may be 100% right in your position, but by being dismissive, your idea loses regardless. If you have the better idea, fight for it. That's how ideas win.

And to be clear, doing work and educating yourself on a topic are *critical*, but it's hard to tell when one has mastered something--often it's not until long after you had already thought you had, and even then, you'll only see more of how much there still is to learn.

I'll point at myself. Much of what you write, I don't understand. It's often above my current intellectual capacity on the topics we're discussing. You've been working at this for five years and I've been working at it for five months. So through the act of reading (multiple times usually) your posts, it may show some effort on my part, but the outcome doesn't change if I can't comprehend it. If I don't walk away from the post with something actionable, it's frustratingly pointless.

One of my favorite films is "A Fish Called Wanda" and there's a great exchange in it:

"You think you're an intellectual, ape!"

"Apes don't read philosophy!"

"Yes they do...they just don't understand it."

I often feel like the ape in our exchanges; desperately trying to comprehend what I seemingly cannot. But not always. (I won't list those disagreements out here as I don't think it would be helpful.)

You always do better when I keep my posts about your wife. You likely don’t see it, but it’s what I receive. I have thrown many 2 by 4’s about your wife, but keeping in mind I was in her shoes. I can’t exactly come at that holier than thou, because that too would seem hypocritical. Besides that’s not in my nature anyway, I have empathy for a ws because while I know they made destructive choices, I know they also destroyed so much for themselves in the process (unless they are a psychopath) I can’t have compassion for myself and not have compassion for them.

I do see it--I view you as the best possible future for my wife's emotional development. I read your posts through the lens of seeking insight into my WW.

I also didn’t feel hurt, I felt confused by some of it. But I have been at this 10 times longer than you, it’s not unusual you don’t always understand where I am coming from. I do type my situation in shorthand because after being here so long most of the people I still know here know the details and supported me a lot. Hellfire being one of them, sometimes with important 2 by 4’s that helped me where I was stuck.

I'm very glad to hear that. When I started reading your post last night, I recognized anger immediately and felt horrible.

Playing back I think what triggered wasn’t my ws stuff and you projecting your wife exactly. Maybe some. I think you were sensitive that I was a ws saying bad things about my bh. It may have also bothered you whether I was accountable to him because of some of the things I said that read to you like excuses. You have to remember he is also my ws. And the work I did on myself naturally made what he did reprehensible. That’s not hypocrisy because I know how much what I did was reprehensible. I hold us both to the same standard. But know if you ask how I feel about his affair, I don’t need to comment on mine at the same time always.

Honestly, I didn't *feel* triggered writing that response to you. And I don't think I have feelings to protect your husband, who committed a reprehensible and prolonged act of harm upon you.

I do agree that some of what you wrote read like excuses though and that's why I picked at them. Calling your husband a hypocrite *felt* wrong to me. It makes sense: he chastised you for the very thing he then committed. I get it: he's certainly a hypocrite.

It's just I tend to be more binary in my thinking: you both exchanged marriage vows and broke them. That's the hypocrisy. And it's hypocrisy of the highest order as you stood before friends and family when you did it. Essentially, the way I see it, he's more so a hypocrite for marrying you and cheating than he is for chastising you for cheating and then cheating.

Ultimately, it probably wasn't a point worth making. I often reply to posts in the same way I write my own--just stream-of-conscience vomit on a page. I'm not refining or filtering anything.

But as a reminder, I love your posts. There will be misunderstanding, but there is *never* malice on my end (and if there ever is, I'd tell you it's coming before I write it).

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 8:30 PM, Wednesday, August 17th]

The point though is that I examine virtually everything I'm being taught. I assume nothing and question everything. It has it's benefits and downsides, but it's how my brain works and I make great effort for it not to destroy all of my relationships.

I examine everything as well.  I also like getting multiple quotes, second opinions, and researching different outcomes and scenarios. And experiments. I love a good experiment! Like you, I also attended Catholic school.  Though, I never had a debate with a nun over lions (just don't get me started on serfs and the feudal system).

I also agree that examining everything can be off-putting to loved ones.  Sometimes, I find myself wanting to curb this part of my personality for others (at their request), and at other times I have a hard time granting the request (just remove yourself if you can't handle my good and my bad).  

When you describe your wife, and her resentment of you, she sounds so very much like my husband (fWS).  He never once relayed to me that he was frustrated with me, or that he disagreed with how we shared family duties, etc.  One of the reasons he gave me, for cheating, was that I once yelled down to him in the basement to take the clothes out of the dryer (and I didn't say "please").  How utterly f*ing unthoughtful and bitchy of me.

As to your example of how your wife didn't make the connection between the restaurant re-opening and the date (and what she was doing back then), I remember my WH (his A partner was his co-worker) telling me over dinner (two months after his d-day) that the office security camera had caught a couple "going at it" in the boardroom. To which I calmly asked, "was it you?" So, it's not that I can't relate to the snark because I've been the snark. It's just that I don't think the snark is beneficial in the grand scheme of things.

Eventually, you really do forget all that stuff.  Until you don't.

Do I have a point?  I'm honestly unsure if I do!  I think it's that some of things you write about tend to jump out at me (the quote above being one example).  Parts of the back and forth with HO also struck a chord with me.  Particularly the questions regarding her husband's A and if she viewed him in a better light after his A (I might not be getting the wording just right).  I think it's important, in view of your "scientific" brain, to point out that it will likely be of no benefit to you to "try on" an A of your own.  I thought I saw an inkling of a desire there, and hope you stick to the debating aspect of your curiosity.  While I can't say I didn't learn anything from my own A, I can definitely say that I should have stuck to debating the pros and cons on paper.

Personally, I'm still doing a lot of internal work.  I'm not sure I'll ever stop learning and reading.  This place can sometimes bring me to my knees, but I come back every now and again to see if I am "able to stand" in quietness and reflection.

I try very hard these days to practice kindness, and to speak in a tone and manner that will not cause harm.  I am also learning to give myself grace, and to accept that I don't always need to test everything.  Or to have answers.  Some things are best left to the imagination.

Lastly, I remember asking my therapist (as the BW), why my husband wasn't capable of loving me as deeply as I was able to love him, and the therapist responded that perhaps my H was loving me as deeply as he currently knew how to love.  So, maybe this is currently true of your wife.  She is loving you to the best of her ability, in this moment. 

I really hope she gets better soon. 

My heart wants your family intact.  My dream is for you to get what your heart desires in your M.

You made some very good points here. I can see how sometimes my insistence and citing education makes it’s seem like my points are impregnable. I could be wrong but usually I feel I do this more when you are dismissing part of my own experience. Part of that experience included spending four years also on this site reading posts for hours every single day. That has been an education of its own.

The patterns I have noticed in that time are unmistakeable. But I recognize each individual is different, there are nuances to every situation, and there are all colors of an affair. So I am not trying to be a know it all it’s just sometimes exchanges in trying to understand each other are frustrating. So maybe that’s a defense mechanism I should work on.

Learning comes from that frustration for me and I am okay with that. I will try and improve on that because I do want to get through and if it is impeding that I will try and find another way. Sometimes your responses are frustrating, and I think it’s a knee jerk reaction.

You read anger last night. I wasn’t angry and I wasn’t hurt. I think we had that big blow up over owning it now and it makes you think I am easily angered. I couldn’t even get angry at my husbands affair for a long time, I am actually laid back in my real life.

That exchange went the way it did because I hadn’t taken you in all your posts totally yet. I partially just thought you were a jerk that I was wasting my energy on. But then you explained yourself, I saw that I had misjudged, and that I also needed to take in I was a new poster for you that came from no where and the fact you were still on the roller coaster portion of this ride. So that’s not the reaction now.

Tone on posts is hard to always have right when you read instead of hear. I was confused by your response last night but also kind of annoyed because it was my situation we were discussing and some what you were saying came off as some sort of lecture that I thought was appropriate for a newer ws. That’s why I thought you were projecting your wife a bit on to me.

You would not find me insightful if I hadn’t brought about everything into my consciousness in terms of accountability and dissected it in almost every angle I could think of. I saw a psychiatrist for a while after my affair, I was batshit crazy. As I said I don’t think your wife is where I was. I know my diagnosis’s and addiction was one of them. A lot of people like me become bunny boilers and stalkers. I just had a better support than a lot of them.

There is a difference between excusing behavior and explaining it. If I thought that there was any excuse I wouldn’t have worked my ass off, I would have rested on the excuse.

As I said before I am far from perfect, and I still have to be mindful and vigilant. So if I am presenting myself that way it’s unintentional.

As far as you being a bit disadvantaged in the conversation, that might be true. It’s hard to remember because you write well. Sometimes it feels that you are being deliberately obtuse. With that said, I will be mindful that’s not the case.

It’s hard to keep it to your spouse because there are things I often see from the bs side that can be of benefit. I think it’s hard for you to think I know that side of it. But at the same time that might just be me because you seem to dismiss that kind of thing from other bs’s who have never been a ws.

But I have been here and I do like open communication. In fact, I had considered myself done with this site. Your situation has brought me back, and I don’t know why I am so invested. I was just popping in here and there and now I am on many days a week.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:22 PM, Wednesday, August 17th]

I don’t know why I am so invested

He's an enigma.

Marie, your post made me smile a few times. Thank you.

I also agree that examining everything can be off-putting to loved ones. Sometimes, I find myself wanting to curb this part of my personality for others (at their request), and at other times I have a hard time granting the request (just remove yourself if you can't handle my good and my bad).

I relate to that deeply. I *think* the answer should be for me (us) to change our behavior. It benefits us more in the long run to be liked than to always be authentic (that was my brief disagreement with Sisoon a few weeks ago).

I especially struggle with that on this site because I'm writing here for my mental health. So being less authentic so that more people will like me feels counter-productive.

When you describe your wife, and her resentment of you, she sounds so very much like my husband (fWS). He never once relayed to me that he was frustrated with me, or that he disagreed with how we shared family duties, etc. One of the reasons he gave me, for cheating, was that I once yelled down to him in the basement to take the clothes out of the dryer (and I didn't say "please"). How utterly f*ing unthoughtful and bitchy of me.

He had plenty of resentment for you already for that exchange to anger him. And he was weak to not then share his anger with you about it.

As to your example of how your wife didn't make the connection between the restaurant re-opening and the date (and what she was doing back then), I remember my WH (his A partner was his co-worker) telling me over dinner (two months after his d-day) that the office security camera had caught a couple "going at it" in the boardroom. To which I calmly asked, "was it you?" So, it's not that I can't relate to the snark because I've been the snark. It's just that I don't think the snark is beneficial in the grand scheme of things.

Yes, I like snark as well. I'm quick on my feet and enjoy delivering a well-deserved jab. Agreed that it's not beneficial.

Do I have a point? I'm honestly unsure if I do!

First time I laughed out loud reading a post on this site.

I think it's that some of things you write about tend to jump out at me (the quote above being one example). Parts of the back and forth with HO also struck a chord with me. Particularly the questions regarding her husband's A and if she viewed him in a better light after his A (I might not be getting the wording just right). I think it's important, in view of your "scientific" brain, to point out that it will likely be of no benefit to you to "try on" an A of your own. I thought I saw an inkling of a desire there, and hope you stick to the debating aspect of your curiosity. While I can't say I didn't learn anything from my own A, I can definitely say that I should have stuck to debating the pros and cons on paper.

I realized afterward that what I wrote could be interpreted that way. It's not how I meant it. No intentions of having an affair. What I am cognizant of is gaining back respect from my WW. It's clear she has no respect for me to do what she did and I need that to change regardless of whether we R or D (even in D, if she doesn't respect me, it could affect how she speaks about me in front of the children, etc.).

Gaining that respect is very much in the back of my mind. The only obvious path to it is consequences for her actions. But I was just interested to hear from HikingOut if her husband's affair in some primal way made her respect him more as a man in the moment. I wasn't suggesting it should.

Lastly, I remember asking my therapist (as the BW), why my husband wasn't capable of loving me as deeply as I was able to love him, and the therapist responded that perhaps my H was loving me as deeply as he currently knew how to love. So, maybe this is currently true of your wife. She is loving you to the best of her ability, in this moment.

I really hope she gets better soon.

My heart wants your family intact. My dream is for you to get what your heart desires in your M.

I think that's true. She's probably loving me as much a she can.

As far as you being a bit disadvantaged in the conversation, that might be true. It’s hard to remember because you write well. Sometimes it feels that you are being deliberately obtuse. With that said, I will be mindful that’s not the case.

Thank you. I can present clarity of thought in my words, but that doesn't mean the thought has been examined. Most of what I write is not examined--me writing it is the start of my examination.

It’s hard to keep it to your spouse because there are things I often see from the bs side that can be of benefit. I think it’s hard for you to think I know that side of it. But at the same time that might just be me because you seem to dismiss that kind of thing from other bs’s who have never been a ws.

That's an excellent point. I do view you as a WW rather than a BW. It has nothing to do with you, it's just because I associate you as someone who relates to my WW, not me. From your fist posts, my WW immediately noted that she related to you. She felt a disconnect with other posters.

But I have been here and I do like open communication. In fact, I had considered myself done with this site. Your situation has brought me back, and I don’t know why I am so invested. I was just popping in here and there and now I am on many days a week.

Well, I'm glad you're here. It likely means you have some unresolved purpose for this place on your journey, so I'm ok being the catalyst.