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What you posted above reminds me of the saying, "Was it a bad day? Or was it a bad five minutes you milked all day." – Unknown

You say that you did not allow the thoughts to overwhelm you, yet you woke up early overwhelmed with negative thoughts. You also state, "I'll assume it's not a coincidence".

You are right, it is not a coincidence. You are in this headspace because you are choosing to dwell in this headspace.

Thinking too deeply can cause one to dwell on their sufferings, which tends to heighten one's sense of frustration or anger with events (which likely leads to the downward spiral otherwise known as "worst funk ever").

I suspect you're right. I haven't resolved any of the issues that were bothering me, but I'm feeling better today.

Go have fun! You just processed your funk. It was exactly what you labeled it. Funk. Don't give any more headspace to it. Jot it down as something to discuss in IC. Go swim and eat hamburgers!

FWIW, I'm glad I didn't go. I had a restful afternoon in an empty house and then picked up some Chinese food for dinner. It was a great recharge and I felt significantly better afterward.

I don't disagree with your advice in general though. I just think it was bad enough yesterday that I needed space from a social gathering.

I want to feel connected to my wife again. I want to trust her and I want her to trust me.

The way you are 'managing. your situation seems to be based on this, which is possibly why others seem to think you are in R mode.

You are working to get her to trust you, and also you to trust her. Problem is, you seem to be doing most of the work to get her to trust you first (so that she feels safe to tell you things?).

The problem here is that you say you are in Observation mode, which you have put a deadline of six months. If you are really in observation mode (supposedly not R), then your WW would be doing everything she can to earn your trust back, but in your case, you seem to be trying to earn her trust. That does not make for a good basis for R, as the BS is doing the work to earn the trust of the WS.

Your curiosity to understand your WW may be the death of the M, as you seem to be putting more effort. Please correct me if I am wrong, but from what I have read, you equate understanding with success. There is truth in that, but in this case, your WW should be the one helping you understand, but she is not, as she herself does not understand the whys.

This ^^^^

I have tried I don’t know how many ways to put it but this hits the mail on the head.

Detachment helps her too because it brings into focus just how bad the damage is. I understand you both want normalcy and maybe it’s difficult to leave denial without normalcy being lowered in your priority list.

And of course what you want is to see her value and love you. But you will not find that from someone who is less than six months from cheating on you. Looking for that before she has deciphered herself is slow torture. And equating sex or desire as the measurement is a little like measuring out a cup of milk with a ruler.

I don’t think you can love someone at the time you are cheating on them. That doesn’t mean you can’t love them again, but the two things can’t coexist. (Maybe in a small set of circumstances that your situation doesn’t contain)

I didnt love my husband and the proof is you can’t have love without respect and holding their best interests at heart. Having an affair is one of the most abusive things you can do to someone.

I love my husband today more than I ever have. Two decades of marriage went by without any real work. It was harmonious outwardly, inwardly it was rotting from the inside out. However, a lot of that was my fault. I held a lot inside. Now we work on even small stuff with intention because we value our marriage above all else.

I am only commenting about this to say it can happen, but not with your wife the way she is now. And this would be true for any ws including myself at her stage. The woman I was between that time and today is vastly different but it comes incrementally. I couldn’t have gone any faster than I did and let me tell you I wanted to with all my heart. It just wasn’t always clear how to change who I was at my core. It’s all in the way your mind works so it’s a process of retaining your thoughts.

Love is not just pleasant feelings, my fondness of him hadn’t left. So I thought "well of course I still love him" as I confessed and asked him to consider staying and working on our marriage.

However, I have learned love is putting someone else’s interests as important as your own. It’s demonstrated through actions. Hearts and flowers and sex are adornments of marital love, not the foundation. If the foundation is good you will have all those things and more. But the foundation of the relationship can only be strong when both people have an individual foundation first.

Your wife needs to learn to love and have compassion and respect for herself. She can’t give to you what she doesn’t have for herself. Being selfish is not being self-loving. Being selfish is trying to get others to fill that hole with their love. When she didn’t see you as a valid choice for that, she looked for another source.

It isn’t that you were not a worthy choice but likely she slowly built a wall of unexpressed resentment and blocked you from that role.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:04 AM, Monday, August 15th]

The way you are 'managing. your situation seems to be based on this, which is possibly why others seem to think you are in R mode.

You are working to get her to trust you, and also you to trust her. Problem is, you seem to be doing most of the work to get her to trust you first (so that she feels safe to tell you things?).

The problem here is that you say you are in Observation mode, which you have put a deadline of six months. If you are really in observation mode (supposedly not R), then your WW would be doing everything she can to earn your trust back, but in your case, you seem to be trying to earn her trust. That does not make for a good basis for R, as the BS is doing the work to earn the trust of the WS.

Your curiosity to understand your WW may be the death of the M, as you seem to be putting more effort. Please correct me if I am wrong, but from what I have read, you equate understanding with success. There is truth in that, but in this case, your WW should be the one helping you understand, but she is not, as she herself does not understand the whys.

I think you're right.

I will add though that the effort to have my WW trust me is not new--I've always been transparent and overly honest with her (with virtually everyone). In all areas of life, I want the credit and I want the blame--I don't shy away from responsibility. I am looking to see my WW gain comfort with me so that the dynamic between us can be mutual.

So yes, most of my effort now is in observation, but I'm still being open and honest with her.

As far as I can tell though, she doesn't get it. We haven't had any incidents since the other week, but everyday I see red flags in her words. And I'm open about that with her. If she asks how I'm feeling, I tell her.

Last night, she gave me two examples of how she felt like she was making progress--hilariously, I thought they were two perfect examples of how she was not.

She told me she became upset twice yesterday, but didn't pick a fight with me and instead worked to resolve the conflict internally--in her mind, that was a way of preventing anything like the incident from the other week from happening again.

The first example she gave:

- My MIL texted me yesterday (she had checked in with my WW first beforehand). She sent a message about being concerned with my mental health in dealing with the affair and wanting to check-in. She also updated me on her life (she's dealing with a cold and taking a trip to Europe soon, etc.).

I responded kindly, thanking her for the message and discussing her trip a bit. Ultimately, it was a relatively brief exchange of pleasantries that one might have with a neighbor. For me, the entire thing felt insignificant--I just didn't have the mental bandwidth to care about the conversation, so I was cordial and let it run its course.

My WW observed my body language during the text exchange and realized I didn't care very much about it. She claims that upset her. Again, from her perspective, she wants me to take the olive branch and work to heal the relationship with her parents. From my perspective, it's not near the top of my to-do list and that upsets her.

Now, a remorseful person would see it for what it is. My MIL is a person I cared about very deeply and now I no longer have those feelings. She'd see that I'm hurt and recognize it's her fault. She'd offer emotional support and kindness.

Instead, my WW's reaction is to feel angry that I'm not patching things up with her mom and regard it as progress that she didn't punish me for displeasing her lol.

The second example she gave:

- I saw news that a restaurant we like had reopened on Feb. 17. Seeing the date hurt me as the affair was going strong. I jokingly quipped: "What were you up to in mid-February?"

Now, I recognize I need to stop these silly comments to express my pain--they're unhelpful and I need to have better control. Her response was to feel angry at me trying to make her feel bad about herself and her mark of success was not emotionally abusing me in response. The response I expect from her would be to think: Wow, he's really hurting, maybe I can give him a hug or a kind word to show how contrite I am and how much his pain upsets me.

**

But as we all agree, me explaining all that to her is a waste of time, so I just asked she take some time to think through her thought process and I disengaged. But I can tell she's entirely lost.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 6:18 PM, Monday, August 15th]

And of course what you want is to see her value and love you. But you will not find that from someone who is less than six months from cheating on you. Looking for that before she has deciphered herself is slow torture. And equating sex or desire as the measurement is a little like measuring out a cup of milk with a ruler.

I don’t think you can love someone at the time you are cheating on them. That doesn’t mean you can’t love them again, but the two things can’t coexist. (Maybe in a small set of circumstances that your situation doesn’t contain)

I didnt love my husband and the proof is you can’t have love without respect and holding their best interests at heart. Having an affair is one of the most abusive things you can do to someone.

I love my husband today more than I ever have. Two decades of marriage went by without any real work. It was harmonious outwardly, inwardly it was rotting from the inside out. However, a lot of that was my fault. I held a lot inside. Now we work on even small stuff with intention because we value our marriage above all else.

I am only commenting about this to say it can happen, but not with your wife the way she is now. And this would be true for any ws including myself at her stage. The woman I was between that time and today is vastly different but it comes incrementally. I couldn’t have gone any faster than I did and let me tell you I wanted to with all my heart. It just wasn’t always clear how to change who I was at my core. It’s all in the way your mind works so it’s a process of retaining your thoughts.

Love is not just pleasant feelings, my fondness of him hadn’t left. So I thought "well of course I still love him" as I confessed and asked him to consider staying and working on our marriage.

However, I have learned love is putting someone else’s interests as important as your own. It’s demonstrated through actions. Hearts and flowers and sex are adornments of marital love, not the foundation. If the foundation is good you will have all those things and more. But the foundation of the relationship can only be strong when both people have an individual foundation first.

Your wife needs to learn to love and have compassion and respect for herself. She can’t give to you what she doesn’t have for herself. Being selfish is not being self-loving. Being selfish is trying to get others to fill that hole with their love. When she didn’t see you as a valid choice for that, she looked for another source.

It isn’t that you were not a worthy choice but likely she slowly built a wall of unexpressed resentment and blocked you from that role.

Thank you for this wonderful and insightful post.

I think my WW deeply struggles with the contradiction of *thinking* she loves me despite all evidence to the contrary.

But I can tell she's entirely lost.

At this point, she shouldn't be lost. She's seeing an IC several times a week,working with a fairly decent MC, has read the typically suggested books,has this invaluable resource (SI), and has a very open BH telling her basically what she needs to be doing.

If she is "entirely lost," it's due to choice, not ignorance, or inability.

I don’t think you can love someone at the time you are cheating on them. That doesn’t mean you can’t love them again, but the two things can’t coexist.

It's refreshing to see a WS say this. It's 100% true. Most WS try to claim they never stopped loving their BS. Which is bullshit. Love is a verb. It's an action. And there is nothing loving about lying,cheating,betrayal,exposure to stds,etc,etc.

I admire hiking for so thoroughly "getting it " and being so honest.

Her response was to feel angry at me trying to make her feel bad about herself and her mark of success was not emotionally abusing me in response.

All I can think to say is I'm sorry. I cannot wrap my head around her thinking that you made her feel bad about herself. She really just doesn't give you much to work with.

I have emotionally immature parents that I have cutoff. This is exactly how my mother has always behaved as a young adult and still as an older adult.

I'm not sure if I can add anything of value, but I'd like to try.

The issue for me is my WW's emotional abuse is representative of deep and significant problems I recognize within myself.

I think there is also at least another issue. Some folks here attack you for focusing on sex. I think it is incredible that you can focus on anything besides sex after what you have been through.
Apart from the affair and issues you've had before the marriage, you've also been an abused spouse for years.
If you were a woman and told your story where every time after sex, you've heard that you are a failure, that you've again failed to give him an orgasm, that, for example, you are so fat that he couldn't come or maybe you did not come, and he showed contempt and made fun of you for it. And it was like that for years. I think the support you have got would be incredible. People would crucify your SO. They would have sighed with understanding and compassion if you had said that your kink was to invite another woman that would satisfy him at last.
Yet when you first mentioned your kink, SI people were taken aback, and I've almost heard a scream, "abandon this sick thread".

Not going into the details, my story is somewhat similar to yours but without an affair at the end. Cuckold kink emerged about 7-8 years in. As far as I know, the principle that caused it was pretty simple: I loved a person. I was unable to satisfy that person wholly or partially. As her satisfaction was more important to me than mine, I was forced to find a way to handle it. Mentioned kink was a solution that allowed me to bypass the problem as I still have been part of intercourse and even an active participant in a way, and at the same time, my SO would be satisfied.
Fortunately, I've never fulfilled that fantasy as I know now that it would destroy me. After my SO stopped and we solved underlying issues (completely unrelated to sex), I needed about one year of introspection until my kink disappeared without a trace. And don't get me wrong: I did not try to get rid of it. It just happened as a byproduct.

I'm not sure how it is in your case. Is that kink part of you, or is it a part of the damage you've received through the years? Because you've received a lot of damage even before the affair - there is no doubt about it. Whether it's part of damage or not, I think a large part of healing everybody mentions is finding these wounds so you can heal them.

However, most BS post A have to deal with the emotional and sexual abuse that their WS’ A foisted upon them. Doc is dealing with really only the emotional side, and even that part is very discrete - needing his WW to fix the very things in her personality that were already broken pre A.

I just didn’t think it was easier or less traumatic due to the kink. In fact some of the things he has said makes me think it’s worse because it had been refused in the past.

And so I think Hikingout is correct as usual. I also feel that in your case, it's worse. Cheating is abuse, and it happened that you were abused much earlier and for a much longer time, so you learned to live with it and treat it like it's normal.

Now, I recognize I need to stop these silly comments to express my pain--they're unhelpful and I need to have better control. Her response was to feel angry at me trying to make her feel bad about herself and her mark of success was not emotionally abusing me in response. The response I expect from her would be to think: Wow, he's really hurting, maybe I can give him a hug or a kind word to show how contrite I am and how much his pain upsets me.

I like the above example that you chose to share, as I see areas for improvements for each of you.

I am encouraged to read that you realize you need to stop the hurtful comments, and that they are not helpful. Verbaliziing that you are aware you are doing it (STEP 1). To catch yourself before actually saying the hurtful remark would show further progress (STEP 2). To catch yourself, stop the hurtful action, and reflect on the fact that you do not want to hurt others or yourself by acting in a hurtful manner (STEP 3).

As to your wife, I am encouraged to read that she was in-touch with her feelings of anger (STEP 1), and was able to bite her tongue (STEP 2). To catch herself, stop the angry action, and reflect on the fact that your joke might have been a call-out from you for comforting (STEP 3).

We all desire to be understood, to be loved, and to be free of suffering.

I recently recommended The Art of Communicating, by Thich Nhat Hanh, to someone else here on the forum, but you and your wife might want to consider it. In my opinion, he is the master on peace. He has several other books, and you can check him out on Google or Goodreads if you wish.

Love, Marie

At this point, she shouldn't be lost. She's seeing an IC several times a week,working with a fairly decent MC, has read the typically suggested books,has this invaluable resource (SI), and has a very open BH telling her basically what she needs to be doing.

If she is "entirely lost," it's due to choice, not ignorance, or inability.

You've made that point a few times. Logically, I agree with you. But I recognize it's not binary. It's almost like trying to teach yourself not to yell out when someone stomps on your toe. It's how her brain is wired and she's lost on how to rewire it.

Even last night, after about 10-15 minutes of silence, she apologized for how she responded. I think the apology was genuine, but it doesn't mean much. She's learned how to analyze her behavior and see the fault, but she needs to change how she thinks--and in that, she is lost.

All I can think to say is I'm sorry. I cannot wrap my head around her thinking that you made her feel bad about herself. She really just doesn't give you much to work with.

I have emotionally immature parents that I have cutoff. This is exactly how my mother has always behaved as a young adult and still as an older adult.

Fortunately, in this scenario, her response wasn't hurtful to me. It's more bewilderment. She was like a child looking for a gold star. She has some deep-seated childhood issues that she really needs to unpack.

You've made that point a few times

That's because it keeps happening.

And..as usual..after she says something ridiculous, she apologizes,after a bit of time has passed. You say it's because she realizes how she was wrong. Yet, you say she says the things she says because she doesn't know better in the moment. How do you respond when she says something ridiculous, or hurtful? I'm wondering if her apology is because she has time to reflect,and is genuinely sorry. Or is it because she's taking her cues from you. She sees your reaction,knows how you feel about what she said,and she apologizes because she knows that's what she should do.

[This message edited by HellFire at 10:07 PM, Monday, August 15th]

I think there is also at least another issue. Some folks here attack you for focusing on sex. I think it is incredible that you can focus on anything besides sex after what you have been through.
Apart from the affair and issues you've had before the marriage, you've also been an abused spouse for years.
If you were a woman and told your story where every time after sex, you've heard that you are a failure, that you've again failed to give him an orgasm, that, for example, you are so fat that he couldn't come or maybe you did not come, and he showed contempt and made fun of you for it. And it was like that for years. I think the support you have got would be incredible. People would crucify your SO. They would have sighed with understanding and compassion if you had said that your kink was to invite another woman that would satisfy him at last.
Yet when you first mentioned your kink, SI people were taken aback, and I've almost heard a scream, "abandon this sick thread".

Not going into the details, my story is somewhat similar to yours but without an affair at the end. Cuckold kink emerged about 7-8 years in. As far as I know, the principle that caused it was pretty simple: I loved a person. I was unable to satisfy that person wholly or partially. As her satisfaction was more important to me than mine, I was forced to find a way to handle it. Mentioned kink was a solution that allowed me to bypass the problem as I still have been part of intercourse and even an active participant in a way, and at the same time, my SO would be satisfied.
Fortunately, I've never fulfilled that fantasy as I know now that it would destroy me. After my SO stopped and we solved underlying issues (completely unrelated to sex), I needed about one year of introspection until my kink disappeared without a trace. And don't get me wrong: I did not try to get rid of it. It just happened as a byproduct.

I'm not sure how it is in your case. Is that kink part of you, or is it a part of the damage you've received through the years? Because you've received a lot of damage even before the affair - there is no doubt about it. Whether it's part of damage or not, I think a large part of healing everybody mentions is finding these wounds so you can heal them.

Stich, thank you for making this post.

While many of the responses in this thread have been harsh against me sexually, I have received numerous very kind PMs with support for others. People--mostly men--have chosen to keep their support private for various reasons and I'm fine with that.

I think your question about my kink is profound. I do not know for certain where it stems from or if it's now a permanent feature. I strongly suspect it's tied to the first girl I ever thought I loved as a teenager (who I wrote about in my first thread). I was friend-zoned hard for many years without any other romantic outlets; and my sexuality was emerging at the same time. I think a seed was planted that emerged years later.

Is it possible that through healing my kink would vanish? No idea, but perhaps we'll find out. I have noticed the pain of the kink is entirely gone. I wrote early on that I didn't think I would be capable of enjoying it again after the affair, but that wasn't true. Not that I've watched much porn in the last five months, but the handful of times I have, I'm drawn back to the same old fantasies.

I will say, I do have a desire to talk about it more openly still--in both IC and with my WW. The conversations haven't felt productive though. I'm left with a feeling like there's more to unpack and I'm not able to get to it.

How do you respond when she says something ridiculous, or hurtful? I'm wondering if her apology is because she has time to reflect,and is genuinely sorry. Or is it because she's taking her cues from you. She sees your reaction,knows how you feel about what she said,and she apologizes because she knows that's what she should do.

I respond in different ways. Last night I quietly laughed. I then suggested she examine it a bit further as I don't think it was an ideal response. Most often though, I won't say anything and just note it to myself.

As for her process, I don't genuinely know what happened in the 10-15 minutes she lied quietly in bed. I don't think she really understood what she should do, but I also don't think she threw an empty apology out and hoped it would buy her some points.

Often she clearly understands how she fucked up and apologizes. Other times though, you might be right, she only recognizes she's fucking up, but doesn't understand how.

I used to be a fan of Three Stooges as a kid--there's a great line from Curly: "I'm trying to think, but nothing happens!"

That's what observing her last night felt like. She very sincerely wanted to understand where she went wrong in her thought process, but couldn't figure it out. And if I explained it to her, she wouldn't understand my perspective. It's like we're speaking different languages.

I like the above example that you chose to share, as I see areas for improvements for each of you.

I am encouraged to read that you realize you need to stop the hurtful comments, and that they are not helpful. Verbaliziing that you are aware you are doing it (STEP 1). To catch yourself before actually saying the hurtful remark would show further progress (STEP 2). To catch yourself, stop the hurtful action, and reflect on the fact that you do not want to hurt others or yourself by acting in a hurtful manner (STEP 3).

As to your wife, I am encouraged to read that she was in-touch with her feelings of anger (STEP 1), and was able to bite her tongue (STEP 2). To catch herself, stop the angry action, and reflect on the fact that your joke might have been a call-out from you for comforting (STEP 3).

We all desire to be understood, to be loved, and to be free of suffering.

I recently recommended The Art of Communicating, by Thich Nhat Hanh, to someone else here on the forum, but you and your wife might want to consider it. In my opinion, he is the master on peace. He has several other books, and you can check him out on Google or Goodreads if you wish.

Love, Marie

Agreed; that’s part of the progress I’m seeing. The interaction last night isn’t much of an issue—she wasn’t being abusive at all. It is a bit frustrating though.

You are expected to listen to her work stuff, bring your MIL back into good graces, not ever make snide remarks about the affair. These are not even close to priorities. She is asking you to invest in a product you haven’t even decided to purchase.

"What were you up to in February" is in no way abusive. It’s extremely tame. Extremely. If you were three years out I would tell you to knock it off but this is graceful for 6 months.

You are right she should understand it come from the pain you are in, and her reaction should be compassion instead of going directly to her shame.

You are not making her feel shame, she chooses that as her reaction because likely that is her reaction to a whole lot. It’s conditioned.

You have to rely solely on logic when it comes to her right now. You have a lot of it for someone so shortly off a dday. The only thing that I see in the way is a bit of denial (it’s waning though)

Here is where I see it the strongest: You work to be close to her by doing your part. Your willingness to continue to strive to be loving and undertanding (which translates a bit towards leniency) It comes because you want to maintain the bond. But that bond is not really there. It was gone the minute she started the affair, you just didn’t know it.

You have been left since then with the ghost of who you thought she was and the hope she will show you that she loves you and you have reason to stick around.

She has been incapable of love for some time, maybe even her whole life. Yet your denial of that makes you keep looking to her for it. It’s a normal stage, a large majority of bs’s do this.

She has to be the one with the biggest onus towards reconstruction. I know you have said it’s unfair/punitive but it’s not. There has to be an imbalance in the relationship for a while.

It’s needed so you see that she really a wants this or you are never going to believe it long term. Early on, people understandably often cling to short term relief, but it’s part of the denial that this is going to take years to fix and there are going to be a lot of phases. Our minds can’t bear that which is why we Reject it, but as healing progresses and time passes it does get more manageable. I think you are already seeing that.

Her hard work will also prove to her how much she wants it. This is how she will learn to value it.

I in no way am suggesting the ws is a second class citizen while in R. But during recovery the ws has to be proving themselves as a worthy candidate for R.

Regarding her saying she is holding things in and processing them on her own - it’s not terrible for the stage. Delaying a response that could be abusive is a a good start. It demonstrates mindfulness and actively preventing further damage.

In time, she needs to express everything even things you might have a negative reaction. For now, she can’t trust what she says not to cause an unexpected result because of her skewed perception. At this point, it’s a good compromise until she can figure herself out.

Improving her communication is a reconciliation activity anyway. Save her bandwidth for getting the foundation right, save your bandwidth for healing. Practice new relationship skills when conditions improve because there will be more room. You can only learn and practice so many things at once.

Building relationship skills is much easier after you fix your own shit anyway. An emotionally intelligent person usually emerges and the things they are looking for will be wildly different than these less important things she is pointing to right now.

You say you want actionable so if I were to put this into something you do:

1. While in recovery the number one priority is preventing further damage or abuse. This requires her to practice mindfulness and you to practice protectiveness. Minimizing your vulnerability towards her.

And simultaneously she works on herself, you work on you. Day to day you parent you kids and go about your business but the relationship is treading water. The focus is only individual growth.

To expand on what this protectiveness looks like:

It means you accept she is incapable of showing you what you want right now. She is that ghost. Understanding it is your responsibility to yourself to not put your heart in the cross hairs. Your heart has already been obliterated, give it time to rest and heal.

2. Deciding whether to divorce or R. The timing in that is the hardest. I can’t tell you how many times I wanted a divorce after my husbands affair. Knowing when to pull the trigger in that decision is difficult.

If you ultimately do decide to R, go slowly. Neither of you have to be fully done healing but remorse HAS to be present. Until there is remorse no progress will be made and it makes #1 impossible.

3 If you decide to R then you work on things like communication, compromise, you can start slowly on some of her requests within reason. She should be consistently meeting yours and showing a deepening of her understanding. You slowly build up to your full participation. Here is there as a constant.

Trying to please her or make it easier for her before you have reached this point is making you vulnerable and you are getting burned over and over.

I respect you want to get in there and comply and be a good husband to her but you are using your precious energy when it’s least productive. It won’t be there later, that’s why being more protective is important.

And, I agree with you, she doesn’t know where to start at changing . She can’t even see yet all that needs changed (I am not talking about her abusive behavior, I am talking about the changing of her foundation/thought processes)

This was was painfully awkward for me in the beginning. I stumbled around until I found a good pattern of digging.

I cringed reading she was laying in bed trying so hard to grasp it, I have been in that place. Now it’s hard to understand how I functioned with that level of emotional constipation.

here are actionable items for her with how to start digging:

-Realizing thoughts are just garbage in/garbage out and blindly following them or worse basing emotions on them was a terrible practice. The Power of now by Eckhart Tolle was the most helpful with that as well as some of his classes on YouTube.

But I would start first with "feeling good: the new mood therapy" by dr David burns. It’s a bit of an easier read and may help with grasping some of Tolles’s concepts.

Also love love love Pedra Chadron. Anything she has written is helpful to get your thinking and heart back on track.

- knowing why you had the affair gives a lot of clues. Then tracing that further and further. A lot of my to do list came from this process. It looks like literal digging:

Why did I feel entitled to have the affair? Oh, I was harboring resentment. What was the resentment? What did I try and do to resolve it? What prevented me from trying to resolve it?

No answer can be about the spouse. It all has to do with recognizing your role and where your deficits are. And btw I used entitlement because that is one of the whys of virtually all ws’s x

-journaling is very helpful. When you wrote something down and read it you can find the defects a lot easier.

I do not think it’s your responsibility to educate her but I wanted to mention those things if you wanted to share them. I Know she has read a few other books I recommended.

Like I said I wanted to be different with all my heart but it’s very difficult to know where to start and it feels so unrelated to what is happening day to day.

I would go to therapy and be asked questions about my childhood but come home with no new skills or answers that helped me deal with what was happening at home. But buckling down on that will eventually effect the day to day and have the most lasting effect.

Everything has to start with self awareness. That’s what IC does. I am saying that a little in response to hellfire pointing out she is in therapy three times a week. Likely, they are exploring her internal world not instructing her on how to help her spouse heal. It can pay off into that but it takes months and months.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:10 AM, Tuesday, August 16th]

I will add though that the effort to have my WW trust me is not new--I've always been transparent and overly honest with her (with virtually everyone). In all areas of life, I want the credit and I want the blame--I don't shy away from responsibility. I am looking to see my WW gain comfort with me so that the dynamic between us can be mutual.

I may be way off the mark on this, but it reads as if you are constantly working on getting validation from your WW. You are doing all the work to earn her trust.... why? I have stayed away from the kink aspect of your thread, but am going to dip my toes in it. *start of kink aspect* Could your subconsciousness be getting you to earn her trust as a 'sub' getting validation from their 'master'? *end of kink aspect*

So yes, most of my effort now is in observation, but I'm still being open and honest with her.

Does this mean you will not try and 'understand' her now? *hint: the answer is 'yes'* That she should be trying her utter best to EARN YOUR trust back? *hint: answer is the same as the answer to the question, 'Is the Pope Catholic?'*

from her perspective, she wants me to take the olive branch and work to heal the relationship with her parents.

Sigh.... in my eyes, she broke it, she fixes it.... not you. She has to undo the damage she created between you and her parents. Her words and actions caused the rift, her words and actions will now need to heal it. Not quite the same, but if a kid hits your kid, do you get your kid to apologise for hurting the other kids knuckles?

Now, I recognize I need to stop these silly comments to express my pain--they're unhelpful and I need to have better control.

The comment was not silly at all. Not at all saying that you should, and the very fact that you did not physically lash out, or scream at her in public, or some other action, already indicates control. You are less than 6mths out from finding out about a betrayal from someone whom you trusted and loved.

Her response was to feel angry at me trying to make her feel bad about herself and her mark of success was not emotionally abusing me in response.

She is still deep (as in Mariana Trench deep) in wayward thinking. Still thinking that she is the victim. All she is thinking and concerned about is herself. The suffering she has to endure. At this point in time, if given the opportunity, she would have a high probability of entering another A again. If some random stranger shows her some pity, its off to the races again!

The response I expect from her would be to think: Wow, he's really hurting, maybe I can give him a hug or a kind word to show how contrite I am and how much his pain upsets me.

This is almost correct. To rephrase: 'Wow, he's really hurting, and I did that to him. He needs my support for all the pain that I have inflicted on him and my family.'

HikingOut, I shared your post yesterday with my WW; it deeply affected her as well as me. We've both known she stopped loving me during the affair, it was just not something she was able to admit to me. With her tacit agreement now--through her agreeing with your post--I pressed and asked her when she stopped loving me. She paused, before replying: "About six months before the affair" (essentially, early 2021).

That hit me hard. I knew it already, but her clear-eyed response stung more than I had anticipated. That was the denial you reference in your recent post below. I suspect it's gone now.

You are expected to listen to her work stuff, bring your MIL back into good graces, not ever make snide remarks about the affair. These are not even close to priorities. She is asking you to invest in a product you haven’t even decided to purchase.

"What were you up to in February" is in no way abusive. It’s extremely tame. Extremely. If you were three years out I would tell you to knock it off but this is graceful for 6 months.

You are right she should understand it come from the pain you are in, and her reaction should be compassion instead of going directly to her shame.

You are not making her feel shame, she chooses that as her reaction because likely that is her reaction to a whole lot. It’s conditioned.

Again, it's her victim-mentality. I have no idea if or how she is going to break from it. I see no progress on that front.

You have to rely solely on logic when it comes to her right now. You have a lot of it for someone so shortly off a dday. The only thing that I see in the way is a bit of denial (it’s waning though)

Here is where I see it the strongest: You work to be close to her by doing your part. Your willingness to continue to strive to be loving and undertanding (which translates a bit towards leniency) It comes because you want to maintain the bond. But that bond is not really there. It was gone the minute she started the affair, you just didn’t know it.

You have been left since then with the ghost of who you thought she was and the hope she will show you that she loves you and you have reason to stick around.

She has been incapable of love for some time, maybe even her whole life. Yet your denial of that makes you keep looking to her for it. It’s a normal stage, a large majority of bs’s do this.

You're right. Prior to last night, I don't think I fully appreciated I was sharing a life with someone who has not loved me for a long time.

She has to be the one with the biggest onus towards reconstruction. I know you have said it’s unfair/punitive but it’s not. There has to be an imbalance in the relationship for a while.

It’s needed so you see that she really a wants this or you are never going to believe it long term. Early on, people understandably often cling to short term relief, but it’s part of the denial that this is going to take years to fix and there are going to be a lot of phases. Our minds can’t bear that which is why we Reject it, but as healing progresses and time passes it does get more manageable. I think you are already seeing that.

Her hard work will also prove to her how much she wants it. This is how she will learn to value it.

I in no way am suggesting the ws is a second class citizen while in R. But during recovery the ws has to be proving themselves as a worthy candidate for R.

To HellFire's (repeated) point: Is she working hard to prove it? I know that by reading books and attending IC, she thinks that she is. But is she really forcing change and challenging herself? It's hard to tell from the outside looking in; if for no other reason than the results aren't stellar.

Regarding her saying she is holding things in and processing them on her own - it’s not terrible for the stage. Delaying a response that could be abusive is a a good start. It demonstrates mindfulness and actively preventing further damage.

That's exactly what she said. However, since the incident the other week, she's been very guarded. She's simply not willing to risk fucking up again. The result is we feel miles apart. But that's probably ok.

In time, she needs to express everything even things you might have a negative reaction. For now, she can’t trust what she says not to cause an unexpected result because of her skewed perception. At this point, it’s a good compromise until she can figure herself out.

That makes sense. I see virtually no progress with her perception though.

1. While in recovery the number one priority is preventing further damage or abuse. This requires her to practice mindfulness and you to practice protectiveness. Minimizing your vulnerability towards her.

And simultaneously she works on herself, you work on you. Day to day you parent you kids and go about your business but the relationship is treading water. The focus is only individual growth.

To expand on what this protectiveness looks like:

It means you accept she is incapable of showing you what you want right now. She is that ghost. Understanding it is your responsibility to yourself to not put your heart in the cross hairs. Your heart has already been obliterated, give it time to rest and heal.

Fair enough. I suspect I struggle with fathoming that she will ever figure this out. The books and IC doesn't seem to be helping her perspective.

2. Deciding whether to divorce or R. The timing in that is the hardest. I can’t tell you how many times I wanted a divorce after my husbands affair. Knowing when to pull the trigger in that decision is difficult.

If you ultimately do decide to R, go slowly. Neither of you have to be fully done healing but remorse HAS to be present. Until there is remorse no progress will be made and it makes #1 impossible.

How do you think you'd have reacted if your husband didn't have an affair? Obviously looking back now, you'd be happy, but in the moment, do you think him having the affair increased your respect for him in some bizarre way?

-Realizing thoughts are just garbage in/garbage out and blindly following them or worse basing emotions on them was a terrible practice. The Power of now by Eckhart Tolle was the most helpful with that as well as some of his classes on YouTube.

But I would start first with "feeling good: the new mood therapy" by dr David burns. It’s a bit of an easier read and may help with grasping some of Tolles’s concepts.

Also love love love Pedra Chadron. Anything she has written is helpful to get your thinking and heart back on track.

I've made this point to her a dozen times. Quite honestly, it's the most shocking thing about all of this. She *knows* her instincts are garbage, yet she continues to trust them in the moment every day. Her clinging onto her broken mental process must be harrowing for her, but she presses on.

- knowing why you had the affair gives a lot of clues. Then tracing that further and further. A lot of my to do list came from this process. It looks like literal digging:

Why did I feel entitled to have the affair? Oh, I was harboring resentment. What was the resentment? What did I try and do to resolve it? What prevented me from trying to resolve it?

No answer can be about the spouse. It all has to do with recognizing your role and where your deficits are. And btw I used entitlement because that is one of the whys of virtually all ws’s x

We haven't had a deep conversation in some time and I dipped my toes in the water a bit last night for about 40 minutes. It was intellectual curiosity on my part to see where her head was at regarding her whys.

I started off asking if she was interested in having sex with other men--a hard no. I asked if she was interested in having sex with other men two years ago--again, a hard no. I asked why--she told me it was wrong and it threatened our marriage.

I thought that was fair reasoning--it's why we don't go around killing people too: it's wrong and then you go to jail. Essentially, morality and consequence.

So I asked what changed in the affair and she told me she wasn't thinking about it being wrong and didn't think there would be consequences--obvious bull shit.

For one, nothing had changed--it was wrong and there were consequences a year ago, but nine months ago there weren't? And two, if it wasn't wrong, she wouldn't have wrapped her life into a pretzel to conceal it from me.

So of course she knew it was wrong and of course she knew if I found out it would hurt our marriage. As best I can tell, she just didn't care.

So again, I asked if she was interested in sleeping with another man now--hard no. I asked if her "no" now was any different than her "no" at prior times in her life. She paused. I think she recognized her own bull shit. Her morality and fear of consequence are malleable. She is still the same unsafe partner she always has been.

My frustration is she does not have the intellectual capacity to explore any of this on her own and as best I can tell, she's not trying to explore it in IC.

Of course I want to have sex with attractive women. It's the first thing in my mind when I see one--it's how I'm programmed on an evolutionary level. I don't have sex with any of them though--it's wrong and there are consequences. That has nothing to do with how I feel about my wife on a given day, month or year either. It is always objectively wrong.

The other thing I explored regarding her whys is her insistence that this was all done for validation, not for love or sex. Again, obvious bull shit.

She had the validation during the early EA portion of the affair--and if not, she certainly did after they first kissed. She proved herself still sexually attractive, able to snag an attractive, younger man; proof of being the MILF in town. She then planned her hotel stay. Why? Further validation? Of course not. She did it for one of two reasons: she wanted to have sex with him because sex is fun or she wanted to further develop the growing emotional bond between them.

Once the PA began, validation wasn't the principle target. For her AP, he wanted fun sex--I can relate to that. Perhaps that's what my WW wanted as well; but I suspect that wasn't it. I suspect she wanted to deepen her emotional connection--which is why on a longer timeline, having already fallen out of love with me, she was looking for an exit from our marriage.

Now I'm not trying to punish her for that hypothetical outcome, but it is so difficult for her to progress when she can't be honest with herself.

-journaling is very helpful. When you wrote something down and read it you can find the defects a lot easier.

She writes on occasion, but probably not enough. She should resume her thread here, but she knows all she'll read is people telling her she's not a victim--she is terrified of that because it breaks from the reality she has created for herself.

I do not think it’s your responsibility to educate her but I wanted to mention those things if you wanted to share them. I Know she has read a few other books I recommended.

I shared them with her.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 3:23 PM, Tuesday, August 16th]

Not trying to thread jack but I wanted to post a few days ago about the terminology debate a few pages back but got busy. I do think that the terms are important in the ways that they help define the expectations, behaviors and boundaries you operate within on a daily basis.

I would argue that you are in limbo that operates, by your choices & actions, as an R. An enmeshed limbo.

It’s been said on this thread that the basis of R versus limbo is her remorse or lack of it. I think it is a heck of a lot more complicated than that.

You are not living in a negotiated limbo where you both work on yourselves and check in.

You are as immersed in each other’s recovery as any couple in R because neither of you have the desire or willpower to create the individual space & boundaries that allows for concentrated self-work.

You both are constantly creating new hurts and incidents because you are unwilling to see that you can’t have an intimate and authentic relationship when one partner is still trying to pull her head out of her ass. You say again and again and again that this is limbo and then get wrapped around the axle when she does something that hurts you because your have exposed yourself to further pain by tying expectations of behavior/progress/empathy in ………limbo.

You say you are working diligently with your IC. Perhaps it is a pride thing where you can’t share that part of your journey or a hyperfocus on your wife, but we are at 150 pages of talking about your wife’s specific and detailed failures.

You have long conversations about your wife’s behaviors and provide her with both positive and negative feedback. She shares her IC sessions as they occur with you, and you provide your thoughts back to her. You go on dates, have sex etc…

I get the impression that you think that many posters are arguing semantics when phases, status, and other such topics arise. There is an archive of history on SI that informs that evidence. I can’t decide if you just love a healthy debate ad nauseum or have the arrogance to suggest that you are both too new to infidelity to hold fast to any of the ideas passed around here and at the same time are intellectually above such labels.

One thing enmeshed limbo has in great supply is topics/events to review/consider discuss about your WW. If you wanted it otherwise, you would make other choices. Establish some boundaries and stick to them.

I don’t think you want your wife to fail. Neither of you have much breathing room to work out your own shit because there is ALWAYS a new topic of failure of the week she needs address to and with you. I am not saying you are causing her to fail. Am saying you participate in new topics with gusto.

The MIL text thing. You are not in R. ‘I am not comfortable texting with your mother at this time .’ I am not saying there wouldn’t be more blow back but once you establish these kind of boundaries, you get more comfortable defending them.

She’s not qualified to be your empathetic partner in healing. She is not qualified to be a safe intimate partner, yet you demand it by your expectations and actions. And then dissect the latest failure.

That’s not a failure of her alone. You are right there holding her accountable for who you know she is not and maybe can’t be at this stage. That topic, IMO, is worth a heck of a lot more discussion on your threads than you allow.

I may be way off the mark on this, but it reads as if you are constantly working on getting validation from your WW. You are doing all the work to earn her trust.... why? I have stayed away from the kink aspect of your thread, but am going to dip my toes in it. *start of kink aspect* Could your subconsciousness be getting you to earn her trust as a 'sub' getting validation from their 'master'? *end of kink aspect*

That's a deep and probing observation, so I wat to be careful not to dismiss it out of hand. I would note that I never saw my desire for honesty as seeking validation, but I could be wrong. I've always seen it has a key moral tenant within me--a selfish one if anything. I'm not honest with people to positively influence them; I'm honest with people because of how it makes me feel about myself. Perhaps it gives me a feeling of moral superiority--I look at others hiding away all their pain through deceit and pity them.

As for the kink, I don't think that's how it works for me, but again, I'm not opposed to exploring it further in IC (or here). I'm just not even sure where to start.

Does this mean you will not try and 'understand' her now? *hint: the answer is 'yes'* That she should be trying her utter best to EARN YOUR trust back? *hint: answer is the same as the answer to the question, 'Is the Pope Catholic?'*

I'm constantly trying to understand her. It may be a misstep, but I'm not willing to be frivolous with my time. I'm gathering information so I can make a decision about my future. My WW could stay in her haze the rest of her life. I need proof of life from her to remain. As I've noted, the first six months are my gift to my children. After that, she needs to prove to me it's worth my time.

Sigh.... in my eyes, she broke it, she fixes it.... not you. She has to undo the damage she created between you and her parents. Her words and actions caused the rift, her words and actions will now need to heal it. Not quite the same, but if a kid hits your kid, do you get your kid to apologise for hurting the other kids knuckles? duh

Honestly, I don't even want to think about her parents. It's entirely her issue. If we enter reconciliation, I'll deal with her parents again because I recognize that's the right thing for me to do. But I don't have time for them now.

The comment was not silly at all. Not at all saying that you should, and the very fact that you did not physically lash out, or scream at her in public, or some other action, already indicates control. You are less than 6mths out from finding out about a betrayal from someone whom you trusted and loved.

Well, I have a higher standard for myself then because physically lashing out isn't on the table. I view my comment as a passive aggressive cry for help. In that moment, I'm in pain, so I make the comment to tell her I'm in pain. That's not how I want to communicate. I should have instead said: "Reading the date that the restaurant opened upset me."

Instead, as I often do, I used an attempt at humor to convey a truth. When the restaurant opened up, they were *literally* discussing how badly he wanted to fuck my wife in the ass. That's the painful reality. If it wasn't still painful, it'd be funny how absurd and pathetic my life was in February--but it is still painful, so the joke is hollow.

She is still deep (as in Mariana Trench deep) in wayward thinking. Still thinking that she is the victim. All she is thinking and concerned about is herself. The suffering she has to endure. At this point in time, if given the opportunity, she would have a high probability of entering another A again. If some random stranger shows her some pity, its off to the races again!

I can see that future if her current mindset continues. If we stayed in limbo like this another year, she'd have another affair. It's why it's important to me to pull the plug if her perspective doesn't improve.