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Doc, I don't think Steven was talking about orgasms. I don't known if you were being sarcastic. But there is a lot of truth in what he said.

You are constantly telling us what your wife now thinks,feels,believes, understands. The truth is..YOU DONT KNOW. Because she is a liar. A phony,as you said. She says and behaves, in order to get the outcome that suits her best. Right now, she doesn't want to be a single mom of young children. She's terrified of it. Your words. So,she is doing what she needs to do,to placate you. When she's tired,or irritated, or angry, her mask slips,and you see who she is. Please understand, it's normal to feel all of those things. But a remorseful WS..no..a woman who loves you..will not continue to say,and do, things that hurt you. She has devastated you. You've made that clear. A woman who loves you would rather cut off her arm,than deliberately hurt you again.

I know. I already know what you're going to say. You don't think she knows she's hurting you,until she's sees your reaction. Then suddenly she's a "devastated woman."

Man,come on. This woman managed to have a whole entire affair,without you knowing,for months. She is not stupid. She is not emotionally stunted. She is not incapable of caring about how her actions affect those around her. She managed to manipulate you AND HIS WIFE, for months. Yes, you knew something wasn't right. That's not because she's "not a good liar." It's because YOU aren't blind. Nearly every BS knew something wasn't right. But our spouses were all able to carry on for months, without getting caught.

She hasn't truly cared about you for years. Ok, you got along most of the time. But you now know she was very angry,amd resented you,for years,and she purposely withheld sex from you as a way to punish you. You went along with it,buying her excuses,until after dday,when she told you the truth.

That's who she is. That's how she feels about you. What changed after dday? Did she suddenly fall in love with you,after years of resenting you? Or is it more likely that she doesn't want to give up her lifestyle, doesn't want to be a single mom,doesn't want to lose half of her time with the kids,doesn't want her kids to find out what she did someday,etc,etc?

She keeps showing you what she is really feeling. And you keep making excuses for her.

Edited to add..I am really sorry to be so blunt. Please know I take no pleasure in saying such hurtful things. I am trying to wake you up.

[This message edited by HellFire at 5:48 PM, Saturday, August 6th]

Doc. Are you addressing your personal issues surrounding sex in your IC? If not, I think you should. I’m not sure if you should see a sex therapist separately.

Your issues surrounding sex to me is a huge issue. It significantly affects your life, as well as your pre snd post A marriage. I personally think that your kink is a net negative all way around.

Until you work through this on your own, sex will continue to be weaponized on both sides. Your WW wielded this weapon throughout your M, snd it’s being wielded now. I think she’s still manipulating you through sex.

You, on the other hand, are basing a major proportion of R on whether your sex life is much improved post A. Your WW of course understands this all too well. However, to me, that’s not even the most important fact in all of this.

Your sex life with WW should improve organically as she makes personal progress in IC, and your overall relationship improves. However, she can fix herself to the ends of the earth, but as long as your kink remains front snd center in your brain, and it remains your primary litmus test regarding successful R and M, issues in your M will continue. Sex is extremely important, don’t get me wrong - healthy sex is…

Your line of thought that you loved your wife and M prior to the A, except for sex, I think is thus fundamentally flawed. Your WW needs to own snd fix her crap and you need to own snd fix your crap - your crap being how you handle your issues surrounding sex.

A perceptive post, but perhaps that's because I agree with it.

I've spent the majority of my time in IC discussing my sexuality; so much so, that my IC recently suggested we move passed it to other topics at future sessions. I suspect my focus on it is largely my intellectual curiosity: why do I find what I do erotic? Why does anyone find certain things erotic?

I may have mentioned this before, but I spent a lot of time in my early 20s browsing porn; not for the gratification of masterbating, but for the exploration of sex. There is a lot of crazy shit on the internet. I had a hard line on things that involved blood and poop, but other than that, I was largely ok viewing almost anything--and I'd watch the video with the question: what is happening here that someone else would find erotic?

What I think I learned is that much of eroticism resolves around domination and submission--it's a game of power. I'll use a common one as an example: a foot fetish. Feet do nothing for me; I simply don't get it. Lots of guys feel very differently--a video of a guy licking a girls toes can send them over the moon. Why? As best I can tell, it's power--it's the idea of a guy being submissive (beta) and worshiping a female (alpha).

It's an over-simplification, but I find sex and eroticism fascinating.

So back to me--sex is a big part of my daily thought process and I married a woman who was promiscuous and sexually confident when I met her. That wasn't an accident. I was with prudish women and I couldn't have been more bored by them. So my wife changed early in our relationship, for a variety of reasons that largely fall on her.

My reaction to that was largely just to deal with it on my own--I found my outlets to keep exploring the mental aspect of sex without straying physically. It wasn't ideal, but I always had the self-awareness to recognize that while sex was a big deal to me, it is a relatively small part of the life I want.

So yes, perhaps selfishly, I'm using the affair as a platform to re-evaluate my relationship, and an improved sex life is #1 on my list. From my experience, the rest of our relationship was largely fine in terms of what *I'm* looking for in a marriage. Now that doesn't mean I'm not open to other amendments--and I think for my WW, her big ask is to develop more of an emotional connection (which I see as objectively good). And I'd say I'm putting 100x more effort into that than I am sex right now. But for my WW, my ask is that she put more effort into our sex life.

I don't think that is being fair to yourself. I don't believe it is uncommon at all to consider your in-laws as family. In many cultures around the world, when you marry a person, their family is your family. Perhaps not as much so in the West, but it still happens to an extent.

The fact they failed you as family is not a reflection on you of anything other than you having what I would consider a fair expectation of familial trust, love, and respect. That is their failure, not yours.

It hurts, but don't beat yourself up over it.

Suppose a homeless man stopped you and asked for money, so you took out your wallet and went to grab a $5 bill--and while doing so, he snatched the wallet and ran off. You shouldn't feel bad for wanting to help the man out, but you might feel foolish for leaving yourself so vulnerable in the process.

Family is a big deal to me--I'd say it was my first core tenet as a child: I understood that there was family and then there was everyone else. I'd meet parents of friends and girlfriends; I was cordial and got along and they were largely all lovely people--but they were never family. That's how I felt about my WW's family when I met them.

But over the early years of our relationship, I was pulled in--they treated me like family and I felt a pull to welcome them into my family barrier. But family to them may not mean what family to me means--and their familial actions may not mean the same either.

My FIL was complicit in the affair; and my MIL was even worse as an enabler. Did they owe me more than that? I tend to think we get precisely what we're owed--and I got exactly that. The difference was *my* expectation.

So now they're not my family, but perhaps nothing ultimately changes as expectations have no tangible measurement. I can still be cordial with them; share a meal or a vacation. At least that would be the goal in R. I'm just not there quite yet emotionally.

1) There is no contradiction between agreeing - thinking - that her parents should stay in a hotel and being angry about it.

The issue is her being angry with me about it. If her parents stay at a hotel, 100% of her anger, sadness and frustration should be with herself.

2) BULLSHIT.

You're lying to protect yourself from a possible conflict.

If your relationship can't thrive even though you have different opinions, it really may not be a relationship worth keeping.

There's nothing wrong with your W liking to wear clothes that you don't like to see her in. Raise the issue, for crying out loud. The resolution is easy - either she continues to wear those clothes and you decide whether to stick around (if you just don't like the outfit) or leave (for example, if you think she's using clothes to seduce other people into an A).

Avoiding conflict with one's W guarantees a shitty life, IMO.

Interestingly, I chose a cliché example to make a point, but I tend to tell my WW when I don't like her clothing. I don't know that it's good that I do--at least I'm certainly not as confident in it as you seem to be. I'm a disagreeable person (seems you may be as well) and I surround myself with conflict. It leads to honest relationships--that's *good* I suppose--but it also can make me inherently unlikable, which is *bad*. I struggle with the balance.

I'd be angry and fearful if my W faked an orgasm. Women are responsible for their own orgasms. If my W is unhappy with sex, I damn well want her to let me know. It's usually not that difficult to make sex satisfying, but it takes honesty. As does R.

My WW typically has 1-2 orgasms during a session. Rarely she has none or more. It's obviously nice that she generally enjoys sex, but there are times when sex may just feel good for her without her ever having an orgasm. A woman faking an orgasm generally has everything to do with the perceived notion that the man wants to see she's enjoying herself. The other night, her faked orgasm was clearly an effort to excite me so that I would cum faster as she was angry with me and didn't want to prolong the sex session.

I'm going to leave the fake orgasm discussion here and move on though--it's not a significant issue to me and my WW has promised to stop doing it.

Games People Play is available for free downloads. I mention this as a way of getting the book more quickly than waiting for it to arrive by mail.

You might also read the brilliant Born to Win by James and Jonggeward followed by I'm OK, You're OK by the Harrises. Reading Born to Win is more beneficial.

If you feel intellectual, Berne's What Do You Say After You Say Hello is a good read.

Thank you for the recommendations! I already ordered Games People Play, so I'll start there.

WRT your progress, I don't see much. I don't expect much this quickly - you're still close to d-day.

But despite a LOT of advice to pay attention to yourself, you're not getting it. You put up barrier after barrier. You place responsibility for yourself on your W, but that responsibility belongs with you.

You have set yourself up as an invulnerable fortress in which you pretend to protect your W for as long as you choose to do so. In fact, however, you are vulnerable, and you can't heal if you don't own it and realize it's a strength.

You can't R unless you heal. You can't heal unless you own your own shit and flush it away. I'm not at all sure you've evn begun to do that.

I don't know if any of that is true. I do know that I find none of it actionable.

Doc, I don't think Steven was talking about orgasms. I don't known if you were being sarcastic. But there is a lot of truth in what he said.

I understood what he wrote. My point was that her fake orgasm didn't cut me.

I do agree with his assessment that the overall episode--specifically her being cruel during the sex session when she knows that's a decade-long sore spot--is a cut. I made it clear to her that there will be a zero-tolerance policy on that moving forward.

A woman who loves you would rather cut off her arm,than deliberately hurt you again.

That's something I'm aware of and it's the core of what makes the other night so troubling. She's so stuck in old patterns of being self-absorbed, she doesn't have the capacity to truly love me right now.

I know. I already know what you're going to say. You don't think she knows she's hurting you,until she's sees your reaction. Then suddenly she's a "devastated woman."

I don't think she cares she's going to hurt me because she can't see passed herself. Then, with perspective, she sees what she's done and is "devastated." Can she change? That's what I'm paying to find out.

I do think there's a misconception though that I don't have clarity of purpose. My goal is my children's development and happiness, and my happiness. I'm working to navigate this landscape to efficiently maximize those outcomes.

Back in March I pledged to give her an opportunity to correct her behavior--I threw out six months as a target date. I've been observing everything she says and does--there has been a whole lot of good and bad. I process it all and I come on here to write about the bad--some of you tell me it means I should run, others say I should wait it out longer, but neither advice is all that useful. Her being an awful person for the 100th time last night really doesn't mean all that much to me right now. As Steven said, it's just another cut. Will she change before I get to 1,000? That's on her. All I am doing is observing. And overall, I'm seeing progress in her.

It's really a simple equation: her progress vs. my willingness to be cut again. Right now, I'm willing to take on another cut for the maximized outcome of me and my children's happiness.

Man,come on. This woman managed to have a whole entire affair,without you knowing,for months. She is not stupid. She is not emotionally stunted. She is not incapable of caring about how her actions affect those around her. She managed to manipulate you AND HIS WIFE, for months. Yes, you knew something wasn't right. That's not because she's "not a good liar." It's because YOU aren't blind. Nearly every BS knew something wasn't right. But our spouses were all able to carry on for months, without getting caught.

I disagree entirely. The affair lasting as long as it did was 100% on my stupidity. I did not believe she could have been having an affair--in the same way I don't believe pigs can fly. She was sloppy in covering it up and an emotional wreck the entire time. She is not a mastermind and she absolutely is emotionally stunted.

She hasn't truly cared about you for years. Ok, you got along most of the time. But you now know she was very angry,amd resented you,for years,and she purposely withheld sex from you as a way to punish you. You went along with it,buying her excuses,until after dday,when she told you the truth.

That's a bit silly honestly. Of course she cared about me. She clearly didn't love me though.

That's who she is. That's how she feels about you. What changed after dday? Did she suddenly fall in love with you,after years of resenting you? Or is it more likely that she doesn't want to give up her lifestyle, doesn't want to be a single mom,doesn't want to lose half of her time with the kids,doesn't want her kids to find out what she did someday,etc,etc?

None of those things are mutually exclusive.

She keeps showing you what she is really feeling. And you keep making excuses for her.

That's interesting.

So she certainly does keep showing me who she is and how willing she is to hurt me. Then we discuss it and she apologizes. I then write about it here to process it.

I don't think I'm making excuses for her though. I don't think there is an excuse for her behavior the other night. Yet it still happened--so why did it happen? Well, she's a shitty human being. At least that's how I view it.

I don't know that anyone disputes that. The only question is how I respond to being married to a shitty human being. My response is still the same as it's been--stand in the fire for now.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 7:08 PM, Saturday, August 6th]

Hellfire was right. My point was you say this a lot:

Do I think her doing xxx yyy and zzz should end a path to R for us? No, I can't say I do.

What would end a path to R for both of you? Anything? I’m not sure you know short of her having another affair.

I’m not saying she can’t be a candidate for R, she can. She’s done some things intellectually that she knows she supposed to, but I’m not sure she has grown at all in actually feeling those things.

She is far too concerned about herself and looking inward and how this all affects her and not you. She’s focused inward too much still. If she was 100% inward focused during the affair, it’s probably only improved 10% in the last 6 months and every time she creeps up to 15% or 20 she does something that is obviously 100% back on her and only her.

Every time you say "Do I think what she did this time should end Attempting R" it adds up. It takes a toll. I just ask you to think about that. Think about how many times you find an excuse for the inexcusable.

I want her to become someone who is a good partner, a selfless one, and safe one for you. I’ve seen several WS do just that here. Right now, I see too much backsliding to say she can be one of those.

I hope it does change. I really do.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 9:29 PM, Saturday, August 6th]

I am perplexed a bit by some of your responses to my last post. Let me take this in a different direction because I do not feel that I am being understood.

I say all this with the overall disclaimer that someone faking an orgasm is not a federal offense. So this wall of words is not a product of condemning her for doing it.

I do not understand how you related it to not liking someone’s dress. So for all intents and purposes let’s talk about authenticity as allowing yourself to be fully seen by others and being true to yourself . Does my outfit contribute to that? Yes. But if I am being authentic then I am going to wear the dress whether you like it or not. I am not afraid to disappoint others because I am being vulnerable and confident enough to present to others who I am in the world.

If a spouse decides to not comment I don’t think that is inauthentic. It is being supportive of how your spouse chooses to show themselves even if you don’t like it. If I ask my husband if he likes what I am wearing, yes I expect him to be honest with how he feels about it because it’s not anything to do with his feelings about me. He just doesn’t like my outfit.

Now getting a little deeper. I know of no woman who is being "selfless" as you say when they fake an orgasm. It is universally known (at least among women) that women do it to finish the sex.

In my own relationship, I have not chosen to fake orgasms because my past experience taught me I was communicating that something gets me off when it doesn’t. So then my partner puts it in the rotation and I have locked myself into something.

When I do not have a climax it used to feel like a failure to my husband. He would keep going just knowing he could get me there when I already know that’s not going to happen, or if it does It will not be that good and I will just be sore. Most of the time I do climax. But our pleasure is not our partners full responsibly. Our pleasure is our own responsibility and that happens through a combination of knowing our own bodies and communicating what we want.

So anytime I know a women who tells me they fake it, there are nuances but they all boil down to they want to be finished with the sex or they feel pressure to put in a performance. The reasons why climax didn’t happen can vary: their partner has a higher sex drive and they simply cannot produce as many climaxes as their mate, hormone/cycles, the experience wasn’t optimal, etc. but when you fake it you are communicating something different than happened. This flies in the face of allowing yourself to be seen, and places a higher importance on not disappointing your partner.

In order to be yourself, you have to be okay with your partner being disappointed sometimes.. A ws is bad at this and even worse after there has been an actual affair and a dday.

I would argue that my husband should not be disappointed if I do not climax. To him, he sees it as a combo of my desire for him and that he knows how to please me. In my mind, it has nothing to do with either thing. We have had extensive communication around this and that understanding has led to a lot more experimentation (not going for the sure thing moves), and a lot more of me initiating because I can enjoy the experience, and it has led to more sex which makes him focus less on whether I get ther every single time. I get there more often too. I no longer have the need to perform and for the most part he has gained some acceptance that sometimes it’s just not going to happen and that I still enjoyed being intimate with him.

So when we talk about authenticity and in turn the vulnerability that is needed to be true to ourselves, this is the work your wife needs to do in order to feel seen and accepted. Crucial for a thriving relationship.

Instead what you focus on is whether or not you all have a great sex life and this seems to be a pitfall for a lot of reconciliations especially in cases where the woman was the ws.

I can understand you were unhappy with it prior to the affair, but it is not the Focus. of the individual work but of the relationship work. I understand why you are deeply concerned things change in this category.

But as I said no one changes overnight. A ws has many things to learn, grow, and expand. The marker to me is that they work towards their authentic selves while also learning to have a new and better relationship with their partner. So I do think sacrifice is there but it has to be there with balance of being vulnerable, not performing or people pleasing.

It’s super normal for your wife to be trying things on and trying to make sure she is making you happy. But the end goal as you move through this is to learn to do it without losing herself. The fact she isn’t comfortable telling you no and then feeling that if she goes forward with it that she needs to have a climax is not someone being vulnerable or authentic. And that is likely due to your hyper focus of this category.

However, it also might just take some time because both your hyper focus and the fact she hasn’t grown that much yet is all very normal for two people six months out.

Lastly, the reason I went into all this is because authenticity in post infidelity marriage is crucial. Not just to feel seen or heard but because you are trying to rebuild trust. Truth is the only way to build that back. When someone is lying, going along too much, etc you are never going to find security in that. That’s why I said to you that eventually you will not accept inauthentic actions, they will become unbearable because you will not have built solid foundations for yourselves or with each other. These small things will mean a lot.

What would end a path to R for both of you? Anything? I’m not sure you know short of her having another affair.

She is filling every free moment of her days with communicating with me and reading self-improvement books. Not a day goes by that she doesn't initiate a conversation with me about something she read that resonated with her. She is very clearly trying to improve herself.

And when she's not doing that, she's working a high-paying, stressful job, taking care of our two young children and attending three therapists a week. I can't say she's not trying.

Still, we agree, she's still broken. The affair was inexcusable and so has much of her behavior since.

So to answer the question, I suspect the most likely way our relationship ends would be her giving up on self-improvement and getting comfortable again before she becomes a functional adult. It's also possible I reach the "1,000 cuts" before she gets there.

I’m not saying she can’t be a candidate for R, she can. She’s done some things intellectually that she knows she supposed to, but I’m not sure she has grown at all in actually feeling those things.

I'm unsure as well.

She is far too concerned about herself and looking inward and how this all affects her and not you. She’s focused inward too much still.

Agreed.

If she was 100% inward focused during the affair, it’s probably only improved 10% in the last 6 months and every time she creeps up to 15% or 20 she does something that is obviously 100% back on her and only her.

Perhaps a foolish exercise, but by my observation, it's far more swingy than that--meaning she'll go 80% focused outward and then 100% focused inward. She's all over the place and it's entirely at the whims of her emotions.

Every time you say "Do I think what she did this time should end Attempting R" it adds up. It takes a toll. I just ask you to think about that.

Agreed, that's the "1,000 cuts."

Think about how many times you find an excuse for the inexcusable.

As I noted to Hellfire, I see no excuse for virtually anything she has done. It's all inexcusable; but still I remain.

I want her to become someone who is a good partner, a selfless one, and safe one for you. I’ve seen several WS do just that here. Right now, I see too much backsliding to say she can be one of those.

I hope it does change. I really do.

The backsliding is a big issue, but I didn't sign up for a linear path. I had a false sense of comfort after three weeks of good and the bad really caught me off guard. For you all, I disappeared for a bit; but for me, it was a string of very good days.

Day by day, I'm seeing improvement overall--that doesn't excuse the other night though.

I am perplexed a bit by some of your responses to my last post. Let me take this in a different direction because I do not feel that I am being understood.

I say all this with the overall disclaimer that someone faking an orgasm is not a federal offense. So this wall of words is not a product of condemning her for doing it.

I do not understand how you related it to not liking someone’s dress. So for all intents and purposes let’s talk about authenticity as allowing yourself to be fully seen by others and being true to yourself . Does my outfit contribute to that? Yes. But if I am being authentic then I am going to wear the dress whether you like it or not. I am not afraid to disappoint others because I am being vulnerable and confident enough to present to others who I am in the world.

If a spouse decides to not comment I don’t think that is inauthentic. It is being supportive of how your spouse chooses to show themselves even if you don’t like it. If I ask my husband if he likes what I am wearing, yes I expect him to be honest with how he feels about it because it’s not anything to do with his feelings about me. He just doesn’t like my outfit.

Now getting a little deeper. I know of no woman who is being "selfless" as you say when they fake an orgasm. It is universally known (at least among women) that women do it to finish the sex.

In my own relationship, I have not chosen to fake orgasms because my past experience taught me I was communicating that something gets me off when it doesn’t. So then my partner puts it in the rotation and I have locked myself into something.

When I do not have a climax it used to feel like a failure to my husband. He would keep going just knowing he could get me there when I already know that’s not going to happen, or if it does It will not be that good and I will just be sore. Most of the time I do climax. But our pleasure is not our partners full responsibly. Our pleasure is our own responsibility and that happens through a combination of knowing our own bodies and communicating what we want.

So anytime I know a women who tells me they fake it, there are nuances but they all boil down to they want to be finished with the sex or they feel pressure to put in a performance. The reasons why climax didn’t happen can vary: their partner has a higher sex drive and they simply cannot produce as many climaxes as their mate, hormone/cycles, the experience wasn’t optimal, etc. but when you fake it you are communicating something different than happened. This flies in the face of allowing yourself to be seen, and places a higher importance on not disappointing your partner.

In order to be yourself, you have to be okay with your partner being disappointed sometimes.. A ws is bad at this and even worse after there has been an actual affair and a dday.

I would argue that my husband should not be disappointed if I do not climax. To him, he sees it as a combo of my desire for him and that he knows how to please me. In my mind, it has nothing to do with either thing. We have had extensive communication around this and that understanding has led to a lot more experimentation (not going for the sure thing moves), and a lot more of me initiating because I can enjoy the experience, and it has led to more sex which makes him focus less on whether I get ther every single time. I get there more often too. I no longer have the need to perform and for the most part he has gained some acceptance that sometimes it’s just not going to happen and that I still enjoyed being intimate with him.

So when we talk about authenticity and in turn the vulnerability that is needed to be true to ourselves, this is the work your wife needs to do in order to feel seen and accepted. Crucial for a thriving relationship.

Instead what you focus on is whether or not you all have a great sex life and this seems to be a pitfall for a lot of reconciliations especially in cases where the woman was the ws.

I can understand you were unhappy with it prior to the affair, but it is not the Focus. of the individual work but of the relationship work. I understand why you are deeply concerned things change in this category.

But as I said no one changes overnight. A ws has many things to learn, grow, and expand. The marker to me is that they work towards their authentic selves while also learning to have a new and better relationship with their partner. So I do think sacrifice is there but it has to be there with balance of being vulnerable, not performing or people pleasing.

It’s super normal for your wife to be trying things on and trying to make sure she is making you happy. But the end goal as you move through this is to learn to do it without losing herself. The fact she isn’t comfortable telling you no and then feeling that if she goes forward with it that she needs to have a climax is not someone being vulnerable or authentic. And that is likely due to your hyper focus of this category.

However, it also might just take some time because both your hyper focus and the fact she hasn’t grown that much yet is all very normal for two people six months out.

Lastly, the reason I went into all this is because authenticity in post infidelity marriage is crucial. Not just to feel seen or heard but because you are trying to rebuild trust. Truth is the only way to build that back. When someone is lying, going along too much, etc you are never going to find security in that. That’s why I said to you that eventually you will not accept inauthentic actions, they will become unbearable because you will not have built solid foundations for yourselves or with each other. These small things will mean a lot.

Got it--I understand what you mean now. And I appreciate that insight.

Couldn’t this latest episode simply be chalked up to a case of one step forward two steps back during R?

This observation of course doesn’t change my earlier comment about fixing your stuff regarding sex and your kink of course.

Couldn’t this latest episode simply be chalked up to a case of one step forward two steps back during R?

I’m currently looking at it like two steps forward, one step back. Our relationship today is improved from months ago.

ButAnyway you have a pm.

She knew from the start that the correct answer was that she should offer they stay in a hotel unless I was the one that offered for them to stay here. However, that’s not how she felt—she *felt* angry with me. She was struggling to square what she knew was right vs. how she felt.

Entitlement. That is how I read this.

She possibly feels that she deserved/is entitled to have her parents over, since you had your sister over. She may feel that since she stays in the house, her parents are entitled to stay over also (obviously ignoring that her parents were complicit in enabling her in her A). She has yet to grasp that they had hurt you as she had hurt you.

She has yet to understand or develop empathy for you, as she had a lot of empathy for her AP. She somehow cannot 'relate' to you empathically.

Entitlement. That is how I read this.

She possibly feels that she deserved/is entitled to have her parents over, since you had your sister over. She may feel that since she stays in the house, her parents are entitled to stay over also (obviously ignoring that her parents were complicit in enabling her in her A). She has yet to grasp that they had hurt you as she had hurt you.

Exactly—the child in her sees it as strictly unfair and it feels unjust to her. She’s starting to recognize when those feelings are irrational, but she has not yet figured out how to overcome them quickly or not have them at all.

She has yet to understand or develop empathy for you, as she had a lot of empathy for her AP. She somehow cannot 'relate' to you empathically.

What makes you say that? I don’t think she had any empathy for AP either. I don’t think she has empathy for anyone.

There's been so much to your story,and I could be remembering wrong,but didn't she spend some time empathizing with OM,about how difficult and dangerous his job was. It was during one of the hotel stays,in the morning,before he had to go to work.

I could be totally wrong.

There's been so much to your story,and I could be remembering wrong,but didn't she spend some time empathizing with OM,about how difficult and dangerous his job was. It was during one of the hotel stays,in the morning,before he had to go to work.

I could be totally wrong.

Nah, that's not from my story.

She developed what she thought was a friendship with him over the initial months, but virtually all of their conversations revolved around very inane PTA chatter (and sexting after the physical affair began).

The only significant exceptions I'm aware of:

- Early on, AP wanted to move away from PTA group texts to one-on-one texts with my WW. Initially, he started to send her side texts from the various groups; it was always PTA-related, but it demonstrated to her a special relationship/friendship separate from the group where the two of them could conspire on PTA things.

He then used that direct line of communication to invite my WW to come with our kids to the town where he works if they wanted to sit in the police cars or fire engine. At the time, my WW thought that was a bit strange and personal--as it was the first discussion they had outside of the PTA--but ultimately it planted the seed, and as they continued to work together, she felt more open and friendly with him.

He also used that direct line of communication to continually ask my WW to meet up in the city where she worked and he had his second job (under the guise of friendship, not an affair)--that went on for a month or two before she finally agreed to meet him in Dec.--and by the time she showed up to that meet, they had already kissed a few days before, so things were taking off.

- Once the affair began, my WW would often briefly complain about me or her job in the 10~ minutes or so they'd chat in his car before she gave him oral sex.

Ultimately, I would say she demonstrated no empathy toward him during or after the affair. And frankly, I still find that a bit odd--we discussed it again last night actually because I still find the way she was able to divorce herself from him entirely following DDay to be a bit peculiar. Her explanation is that at first it was out of anger toward him for being so callous to her after I found out--and then by the time she was passed that, she was fully focused on trying to R with me and had no interest in ever talking to him again.

To your point though--regarding what you thought she said to him about his job being dangerous--I suppose she is capable of comments like that. I think the big difference with her lack of empathy toward me now is because she is the cause of my pain. She struggles to empathize with me because to her doing so enforces herself as the villain.

P.S. I recognize you and several others have noted that I make excuses for her--and as I read some of what I just wrote, I understand why you would state that. But what I'm doing is *explaining her perspective*, not justifying it. I think she is royally fucked up and all of this is batshit crazy.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 8:15 PM, Monday, August 8th]

I will just say that you "explaining her perspective" has a lot of your beliefs surrounding it. As HellFire said

You are constantly telling us what your wife now thinks,feels,believes, understands. The truth is..YOU DONT KNOW. Because she is a liar. A phony,as you said. She says and behaves, in order to get the outcome that suits her best.

As an outsider, I definitely see you playing off her behaviors as "she's trying", but the truth is, she's only trying to play a part. You will again state that she's making progress, but I don't see it.

As an outsider, I definitely see you playing off her behaviors as "she's trying", but the truth is, she's only trying to play a part. You will again state that she's making progress, but I don't see it.

Your points aren't at odds with each other. She *is* trying to play a part now. Much of her actions aren't authentic; she's doing them because through her therapy and reading, she understands how she should be acting, from an intellectual perspective. She has not adapted all those changes internally yet.

So yes, she is trying. And yes, I'm framing her trying as progress.

I just see a woman who is an expert at being the victim.

You asked how she could divorce from the affair and AP so quickly? By being the victim. Just as she was when she got herself into this mess.

I'm seeing a pattern here. Even here in your posts. Yes your wife plays victim, but you have and still do enable this behavior, by saving her. Its an extremely dysfunctional dynamic, that if it continues with have the two of throwing a shiny coat of paint over an extremely ugly wall.

An example, you complain about your wife's poor behavior, a poster will expand on your point and then you walk it back and gloss over the behavior by either saying its not that big a deal or pointing out how you believe she is improving.

In the meanwhile you're paving over the issue.

Hopefully you are just defending your wife from what you may see as attacks on her and IRL you've been tackling those issues. I suspect not really, but then again, what do I know.🤷🏽‍♂️

I just see a woman who is an expert at being the victim.

You asked how she could divorce from the affair and AP so quickly? By being the victim. Just as she was when she got herself into this mess.

I'm seeing a pattern here. Even here in your posts. Yes your wife plays victim, but you have and still do enable this behavior, by saving her. Its an extremely dysfunctional dynamic, that if it continues with have the two of throwing a shiny coat of paint over an extremely ugly wall.

An example, you complain about your wife's poor behavior, a poster will expand on your point and then you walk it back and gloss over the behavior by either saying its not that big a deal or pointing out how you believe she is improving.

In the meanwhile you're paving over the issue.

Hopefully you are just defending your wife from what you may see as attacks on her and IRL you've been tackling those issues. I suspect not really, but then again, what do I know.🤷🏽‍♂️

She has apologized for her behavior on Thursday repeatedly, but I haven't forgiven it. We've discussed it at length since then most evenings. Her behavior and words were inexcusable.

I will relay her perspective back to the community here as that seems like a logical thing for me to do, but I'm not glossing over anything she is doing. Every inch is being accounted for.

I understand your perspective though. It comes with waves here--a group of posters piles on her and attacks me for being lenient and a month later a group of posters piles on me for being too demanding. I sometimes respond to those posts with conflict to explore the points being made.

Your position is that I'm throwing paint on an ugly wall--ok, perhaps you're right; perhaps you're wrong. If I don't engage with you to test your position, what value does it serve?

With a few exceptions, I assume you're all honest brokers; I also assume that you all assume that of me. So from there, it's just a matter of the best ideas, thoughts and positions being elevated to help me navigate this shitstorm. And I'm appreciative of virtually all of them, even when I respond in ways you find argumentative or indignant.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 11:05 PM, Monday, August 8th]