SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I understand that this was not about a bad sexual encounter (even a bad bj is good, right?). I understand that you felt hurt, by her, based on the words she chose to use during that moment. I also understand that you want her to be able to stop herself from sharing her thoughts in that moment. Which to me, means she needs to work on her impulse-control.

I also think I understood you to say that you would be okay in discussing why she was angry, if she was able to put it aside and approach it at a later date or time.

I also think I hear you saying that while her acts can be abusive, that you do not believe her to be an abusive person at heart. In other words, you have confidence in her ability to change her actions with proper work and time.

Lastly, I think I hear you saying that you want to give the family more time. I am sincerely trying, when giving advice, to keep what you want to accomplish as my "driving force." Please correct me if I've misunderstood what you want and desire!

I am a very firm believer that we can judge for ourselves when we know we have reached our limit. I believe in your confidence in yourself, and your ability to handle your own situation.

All fair.

As to your slut example above-- avoiding a specific word (slut) is objective (easy to determine if goal is met), whereas determing feelings behind words can be very subjective. But I understand what you were trying to convey-- she needs to be more careful with her words, and when she chooses to say her words. I encourage you to keep mentoring her to be mindful of her own goals for herself. Perhaps she will view herself as "winning" if she can focus on meeting her own personal goals. Whether we realize it or not, most battles are truly within.

I think I need to be more precise here.

It's really not her words. She could have said nothing after the BJ and it would have been the same result. The look she gave was of pure contempt for me. She had a stressful work day ahead and wanted to get back to work and she was annoyed to be giving me a BJ in that moment. I didn't know that. She inauthentically conveyed enthusiasm to fool around.

The obvious answer is for her not to give me a BJ, but she has boundary issues she's working on, so the next answer can't be to give me a BJ and then make me feel bad about it.

As I told the MC yesterday, if, for whatever reason, she finds herself angry with a penis in her mouth again, she needs to have the self-awareness to get out of the situation without hurting me. She should give me the best BJ in the world so I get off as quick as possible; then she should smile at me and go back to work. Then later on, she should bring it up and we can discuss a fix.

Essentially, by the time my penis is in her mouth, she's crossed the Rubicon--it's on her to make sure the encounter ends in a positive way.

As to you being influenced by this forum (or any platform), I would challenge you to spend two-fold the amount of time that you are spending here, on a positive, loving activity of your choosing! If you are spending 3 hours here, spend 6 hours on something else that brings you joy! (That might seem like a lot to ask, but I was seriously contemplating advocating 3x the amount of time towards loving and joyful activity)

Good advice. There's a lot of activity today, so I'm trying to respond to everyone as a curtesy, but I'll cut myself off for the day at some point soon.

Speaking of joy, my fantasy draft is this weekend. Our team decided to do Superflex this year. I can't remember if you said you did a superflex? I'm thinking of drafting 2 quality QBs within first 4 rounds. With the two other slots falling to tier 1 or tier 2 WR/RB. Naturally, this all depends on luck of the draw (we draw numbers to determine who picks first), and then "snake" back and fourth with picks. I'm super psyched for the new season. Do you feel good about your draft picks?

I'm in two superflex leagues actually, including my longtime friends league, but that's an auction so it's a bit different because you can't get screwed over by a QB-run. In a 2QB snake, there will be a QB run and you don't want to be at the end of it. My advice is to try to grab at least one early QB because in a worst case scenario you could get two QB3s and play matchups for your QB2 spot. I think Allen, Lamar, Mahomes, Herbert and Murray should all go in R1 (and you can make an argument for Allen #1 overall)--so depending on how aggressive your league mates are, grabbing one of those guys is a fairly safe start. I'd then look for a RB in R2 (Mixon, Harris, Swift, Barkly probably)--then in R3, look for Russell Wilson or Dak if they make it; if not, go best available and then look for your QB2 later.

Bottom-line, there's nothing wrong with going two early QBs, UNLESS no one else in your league goes early QBs, then you're screwed. It's why I'd say go for one and then wait and see what everyone else does.

One other thing in regards to sports (damn, I'm chatty today!)-- I'm super competitive, and there is a quote (I think it's from Tommy Rivs) that goes something like this: The mind will give up 1000x before the body ever will. I use this mantra when I'm out on a run and my brain tries to tell me that my legs are done (riduculous!). Anyway, I like to think that the quote also pertains to the heart. Meaning, the mind will give up 1000x before the heart ever will. Know your limits (very important! no one needs to die in the canyon alone), but have faith in your legs!

Thank you--good advice.

Not much to say about the direction this is going.

You say you don't believe your wife loves or respects you, but you say its not fear that prevents you from enforcement of boundaries. I think this is just an exercise in mental gymnastics on your part.

You are fearful that enforcement of your boundaries being crossed over and over again will result in your wife being the one to pull the plug. Believe it or not you've said it many times in round about ways.

I wish you the best of luck

I think the better question might be whether or not she views moving out as a consequence--I feel like *if* I'm wrong in my assessment, it's in that direction.

I don’t know. I have always punished myself far more than anyone else could. Even as a child. WS are often very shame-filled people.

My husband asked for a divorce with an in house separation until we sold the house. I went to immediately moving my things. I was even careful not to cry about it in front of him because I didn’t think it fair to make him feel guilty about his decision. But I didn’t want it at all, I was dying inside. The bs’s here told me that I needed to do the opposite, that was definitely them that helped us get past it. My instincts were not right, he needed to hear why I wanted to stay.

I don’t know why people think it’s bizarre that she put a deposit in an apartment when you asked her to move out. This sounds very much like it falls in what I know of Ws’s mentality. I did not want to watch my husband hurt anymore (though at that time it was more about MY feelings I will get to that later).

We drew divorce papers and I agreed to sign over our businesses to him. I still would get half of our personal stuff, and we would each keep our individual retirements. The businesses were worth almost five times what our personal stuff was including our 401k’s. This was drawn up by us with no lawyer because I didn’t feel like I should also cause that expense on top of everything else. I had at one point offered to pay the legal fees myself, yet I wanted no divorce.

I just think looking for logic without the filter of shame is why it doesn’t make sense to people. It does resonate with me.

I also find it puzzling why it’s being made to seem like she is the biggest ws monster that we have ever seen? Or that you are doing anything different at five months than most any bs that ever comes here.

It takes time to figure this stuff out. I agree that you will have to work on consistency and boundaries . A boundary in this context is not a rule, it’s separating where you end and another person begins. But that is going to take a lot of practice from your side. Just like resolving the resentment and learning not to add to it - it’s not going to happen for her overnight.

I am not defending her, she is not a safe partner right now. But many of us have reconciled here and I am not understanding the impatience of some of the audience. I know it’s meant to be helpful, we all post here to try and help others to not do the same pitfalls and to get out of pain as soon as possible.

I had been here for 3 years by the time I found out about my husbands affair, and I still fell into many pitfalls that I logically knew to avoid. Emotional integration of logical information takes time to process and effort in practicing.

When I said you weren’t ready and you were sure that you were, my reasoning for feeling that way is because there are not all the proper boundaries and awareness of that will take time. Some of your internal conflict is caused by this as it enables you to take responsibility for things that aren’t about you.

This is the reason detachment is almost impossible for you to truly execute. It’s going to take some time before some of those tendencies are separated out from what is loving versus what is unhealthy.

True detachment allows you to still love the person without engaging them. Holding space for them while protecting yourself from further damage. I think you find that hard to envision and it’s why you know if you separate things will deteriorate quickly from your end and you will be divorced.

I think in your situation it might be best to work with your IC about the ways you might be enabling some of her behavior and what might help you teach a better level of detachment/protection and consistency.

To be clear I am not shaming you for changing your mind. I am saying consistency with the idea that it’s less rule based, because that is about her behavior which you can not control. It’s based instead on your focus of what you can control. In fact by mastering that you could theoretically throw every requirement out the window and only be responsible for yourself, your reactions, and what you will or won’t participate in.

And I believe Old wounds is wise he helped me a lot over the years and agree we should or be diagnosing codependency. I think it’s something to look at with your professionals. I will try and refrain from using that as an absolute.

I have used it because I do see elements of it, but he is right we don’t know anything for sure here. But, you have been told by a therapist she is abusive to you and you continue to be vulnerable with her. That is enabling her to hurt you type behaviors. So it’s not out of the realm of possibility. Definitely look into it. I read once a large percentage of marriages (can’t remember number, I know it was more than 50%) effected by infidelity are codependent. I would bet almost all have boundary issues.

I also believe what he said about her needing to let her resentments go about the past has to be the first step. She can not have remorse and be the victim at the same time. She can not get to remorse while drowning in her own shame. She has to stop being wrapped up in her own emotions.

If she was genuine about leaving because she doesn’t want to keep hurting you, that would be a sign of remorse. I am not sold that is what happened. For me it was consequences. Facing consequences was about me feeling I deserved punishment and ultimately about being absolved. So it was shame based. Also naive, I have been provided grace but nothing will ever absolve it. I didn’t want to hurt him anymore, that was true but my focus around that was still how I felt about hurting him.

Remorse is being fully aware how he felt about things (as closely as someone who never experienced it) and acting accordingly.Realizing how he felt would have led to me knowing it was time to make my case to him and really follow through. Instead my instinct was to go quietly because I couldn’t watch it anymore. While I truly didn’t want to cause him pain, this was still about me not being a bad person by punishing myself.

It worked out, I did get to that place where I was thinking more about his feelings than dwelling on mine. But it took a lot longer than five months. There is a risk this will never happen with your wife and that’s where the audience is right. But it’s your risk to take. As long as she is in IC, trying, maintaining no contact, making progress your risk will keep going down. You keep trying to figure out how to monitor progress maybe it could help to measure the progress of your how you feel that risk is paying off.

That’s maybe not yet a formed thought, I don’t quite like it yet but the idea is your gauge isn’t based on her, it’s based on you. Probably more and different things need added to what you could look at.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:19 AM, Friday, August 26th]

Respectfully, if I just wanted to force the outcome, I'd stop analyzing everything she did, stop writing on this website, rug-sweep the entire affair, and blissfully return to my old relationship.

You are not wrong, in that you could just stop the analysis, and GTFO, or rug-sweep and stick fingers in your ears. That is your prerogative, as the decision whether to R or D.

The thing is, you seem to be getting to the stage of Paralysis through Analysis. The depth that you analyze things/issues gets quite deep.

I do tell my teams that it is more important to understand a problem/issue first, before a decision is made, as it will then make for a more stable outcome. Correct me if I am wrong, but this seems to be the approach you are taking.

The bad thing about that, is that a person can get too absorbed in the understanding, and gets to the stage where certain data leads on to other data, which opens up more avenues to another set of data, that a decision cannot be made as the data then overwhelms the decision process.

You will have to make a decision on when to cut off the data streams, or take a break from the data, as you can get into the 'cannot see the forest through the trees' position, hence my suggestion of taking some time off to re-group your mind. This will allow you to sort out the data better, and separate the wheat from the chaff. At the moment, you seem to be adding more and more data.

With regards to my comment about forcing the outcome, you seem to be triggered a bit by that. If I did, I do apologies, but that makes me wonder why you triggered. Is that worth looking at in your IC (if you did trigger, if not, then drop it)?

As I told the MC yesterday, if, for whatever reason, she finds herself angry with a penis in her mouth again, she needs to have the self-awareness to get out of the situation without hurting me. She should give me the best BJ in the world so I get off as quick as possible; then she should smile at me and go back to work. Then later on, she should bring it up and we can discuss a fix.

Essentially, by the time my penis is in her mouth, she's crossed the Rubicon--it's on her to make sure the encounter ends in a positive way.

And the MC said what?

That is not what consent and bodily autonomy looks like. I agree she needs to find a way to not be hurtful about it. I agree she shouldn’t consent to it in the first place. But what I don’t agree with is that finishing the BJ is the only way she can end it without hurting you. There are lots of non- abusive things she can say or do. She is not responsible for you taking it personally. She is only responsible for expressing herself in a way that is respectful and loving towards you.

It’s not abusive not to finish a sex act that you are not enjoying. Feeling safe that is okay with your partner is important. There is a lot of science about having sex under duress is harmful to your nervous system and actually can destroy libido.

That being said, I do believe she also needs to do her part in making you feel safe. Stopping mid-act is not something that should be happening with any frequency at all. Making you feel safe means saying no when she knows it’s not the right time for her to be able to give you her complete attention. It means once she does say yes that she is doing so in good conscience to try and relax and focus on loving and connecting with you. But if for some reason this is unsuccessful, or she doesn’t like something about the situation then she should absolutely be able to stop in a respectful, loving way.

I am going to be floored if the MC said nothing to that statement. Maybe it was meant to be saying to her, "don’t start it unless you are serious about it” which is very fair - but then say it like that. When you say it like this, well…

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:01 AM, Friday, August 26th]

I don’t know. I have always punished myself far more than anyone else could. Even as a child. WS are often very shame-filled people.

My husband asked for a divorce with an in house separation until we sold the house. I went to immediately moving my things. I was even careful not to cry about it in front of him because I didn’t think it fair to make him feel guilty about his decision. But I didn’t want it at all, I was dying inside. The bs’s here told me that I needed to do the opposite, that was definitely them that helped us get past it. My instincts were not right, he needed to hear why I wanted to stay.

I don’t know why people think it’s bizarre that she put a deposit in an apartment when you asked her to move out. This sounds very much like it falls in what I know of Ws’s mentality. I did not want to watch my husband hurt anymore (though at that time it was more about MY feelings I will get to that later).

We drew divorce papers and I agreed to sign over our businesses to him. I still would get half of our personal stuff, and we would each keep our individual retirements. The businesses were worth almost five times what our personal stuff was including our 401k’s. This was drawn up by us with no lawyer because I didn’t feel like I should also cause that expense on top of everything else. I had at one point offered to pay the legal fees myself, yet I wanted no divorce.

I just think looking for logic without the filter of shame is why it doesn’t make sense to people. It does resonate with me.

I also find it puzzling why it’s being made to seem like she is the biggest ws monster that we have ever seen? Or that you are doing anything different at five months than most any bs that ever comes here.

It takes time to figure this stuff out. I agree that you will have to work on consistency and boundaries . A boundary in this context is not a rule, it’s separating where you end and another person begins. But that is going to take a lot of practice from your side. Just like resolving the resentment and learning not to add to it - it’s not going to happen for her overnight.

I am not defending her, she is not a safe partner right now. But many of us have reconciled here and I am not understanding the impatience of some of the audience. I know it’s meant to be helpful, we all post here to try and help others to not do the same pitfalls and to get out of pain as soon as possible.

I had been here for 3 years by the time I found out about my husbands affair, and I still fell into many pitfalls that I logically knew to avoid. Emotional integration of logical information takes time to process and effort in practicing.

When I said you weren’t ready and you were sure that you were, my reasoning for feeling that way is because there are not all the proper boundaries and awareness of that will take time. Some of your internal conflict is caused by this as it enables you to take responsibility for things that aren’t about you.

This is the reason detachment is almost impossible for you to truly execute. It’s going to take some time before some of those tendencies are separated out from what is loving versus what is unhealthy.

True detachment allows you to still love the person without engaging them. Holding space for them while protecting yourself from further damage. I think you find that hard to envision and it’s why you know if you separate things will deteriorate quickly from your end and you will be divorced.

I think in your situation it might be best to work with your IC about the ways you might be enabling some of her behavior and what might help you teach a better level of detachment/protection and consistency.

To be clear I am not shaming you for changing your mind. I am saying consistency with the idea that it’s less rule based, because that is about her behavior which you can not control. It’s based instead on your focus of what you can control. In fact by mastering that you could theoretically throw every requirement out the window and only be responsible for yourself, your reactions, and what you will or won’t participate in.

And I believe Old wounds is wise he helped me a lot over the years and agree we should or be diagnosing codependency. I think it’s something to look at with your professionals. I will try and refrain from using that as an absolute.

I have used it because I do see elements of it, but he is right we don’t know anything for sure here. But, you have been told by a therapist she is abusive to you and you continue to be vulnerable with her. That is enabling her to hurt you type behaviors. So it’s not out of the realm of possibility. Definitely look into it. I read once a large percentage of marriages (can’t remember number, I know it was more than 50%) effected by infidelity are codependent. I would bet almost all have boundary issues.

I also believe what he said about her needing to let her resentments go about the past has to be the first step. She can not have remorse and be the victim at the same time. She can not get to remorse while drowning in her own shame. She has to stop being wrapped up in her own emotions.

If she was genuine about leaving because she doesn’t want to keep hurting you, that would be a sign of remorse. I am not sold that is what happened. For me it was consequences. Facing consequences was about me feeling I deserved punishment and ultimately about being absolved. So it was shame based. Also naive, I have been provided grace but nothing will ever absolve it. I didn’t want to hurt him anymore, that was true but my focus around that was still how I felt about hurting him.

Remorse is being fully aware how he felt about things (as closely as someone who never experienced it) and acting accordingly.Realizing how he felt would have led to me knowing it was time to make my case to him and really follow through. Instead my instinct was to go quietly because I couldn’t watch it anymore. While I truly didn’t want to cause him pain, this was still about me not being a bad person by punishing myself.

It worked out, I did get to that place where I was thinking more about his feelings than dwelling on mine. But it took a lot longer than five months. There is a risk this will never happen with your wife and that’s where the audience is right. But it’s your risk to take. As long as she is in IC, trying, maintaining no contact, making progress your risk will keep going down. You keep trying to figure out how to monitor progress maybe it could help to measure the progress of your how you feel that risk is paying off.

That’s maybe not yet a formed thought, I don’t quite like it yet but the idea is your gauge isn’t based on her, it’s based on you. Probably more and different things need added to what you could look at.

HikingOut, I think you're spot on. I think her reasons for not putting up a fight to move out were largely the shame she had for constantly hurting me--but I suspect you're right in that it was about how bad it made *her* feel. I also think she was feeling very down by the string of largely negative days we've had in August. It has been emotionally exhausting for both of us and moving out was a way of resetting--she was trying her best to find positives in the action. Also, to be fair to her, if she refused to move out after agreeing to do so, it would have gone far worse. I'd almost certainly have doubled-down and we would have spiraled to a really bad end.

I also like your suggestion about discussing my enabling behavior in IC. I see that at times and my instincts are clearly unhealthy.

Lastly, we're in agreement on me "changing my mind"--I feel no shame from those chastising me for the decision. I think your distinction between a rule and a requirement is perfect and it's more or less what I explained to my WW last night.

Her moving out after the incident the other day felt punitive to me. I wasn't asking her to leave because of how much she hurt me (like she did a few weeks ago), I was asking her to leave because she broke a rule. I felt cornered into the decision--it was simply a logical exercise I followed to a clear and inevitable conclusion, but it didn't feel right. She messed up and caught herself immediately and I was punishing her on the technicality. I don't know that she had malicious intent to hurt me--in fact, I suspect she didn't.

And the MC said what?

That is not what consent and bodily autonomy looks like. I agree she needs to find a way to not be hurtful about it. I agree she shouldn’t consent to it in the first place. But what I don’t agree with is that finishing the BJ is the only way she can end it without hurting you. There are lots of non- abusive things she can say or do. She is not responsible for you taking it personally. She is only responsible for expressing herself in a way that is respectful and loving towards you.

It’s not abusive not to finish a sex act that you are not enjoying. Feeling safe that is okay with your partner is important. There is a lot of science about having sex under duress is harmful to your nervous system and actually can destroy libido.

That being said, I do believe she also needs to do her part in making you feel safe. Stopping mid-act is not something that should be happening with any frequency at all. Making you feel safe means saying no when she knows it’s not the right time for her to be able to give you her complete attention. It means once she does say yes that she is doing so in good conscience to try and relax and focus on loving and connecting with you. But if for some reason this is unsuccessful, or she doesn’t like something about the situation then she should absolutely be able to stop in a respectful, loving way.

I am going to be floored if the MC said nothing to that statement. Maybe it was meant to be saying to her, "don’t start it unless you are serious about it" which is very fair - but then say it like that. When you say it like this, well…

It was comedic hyperbole and the MC laughed out loud. It clearly reads differently and I feel badly for making you take the time to address it so sternly.

FWIW, the MC did make the point that she could stop midway as well, but correctly acknowledged that would likely make me feel horrible.

We're leaving sex up to her initiation now and we'll see how it goes for a week. I don't think my WW will like that long-term, but we'll see.

You are not wrong, in that you could just stop the analysis, and GTFO, or rug-sweep and stick fingers in your ears. That is your prerogative, as the decision whether to R or D.

The thing is, you seem to be getting to the stage of Paralysis through Analysis. The depth that you analyze things/issues gets quite deep.

I do tell my teams that it is more important to understand a problem/issue first, before a decision is made, as it will then make for a more stable outcome. Correct me if I am wrong, but this seems to be the approach you are taking.

The bad thing about that, is that a person can get too absorbed in the understanding, and gets to the stage where certain data leads on to other data, which opens up more avenues to another set of data, that a decision cannot be made as the data then overwhelms the decision process.

You will have to make a decision on when to cut off the data streams, or take a break from the data, as you can get into the 'cannot see the forest through the trees' position, hence my suggestion of taking some time off to re-group your mind. This will allow you to sort out the data better, and separate the wheat from the chaff. At the moment, you seem to be adding more and more data.

With regards to my comment about forcing the outcome, you seem to be triggered a bit by that. If I did, I do apologies, but that makes me wonder why you triggered. Is that worth looking at in your IC (if you did trigger, if not, then drop it)?

I think you're right that I'm now at a point where I'm over-analyzing potentially bad data. It's hard for me to let go and just live right now, but I need to be better at it. I'd like to try to rest my mind a bit this week--no kids, so it's just me and the WW. We can just be and see how it feels.

I don't know that I was triggered by your suggestion that I was forcing the outcome, but I do disagree with it. I accept that it may be a difference in our interpretations though. I could force R or D and I'm very much *not* doing that. I think my actions back that up. If I was forcing D, it would be self-evident as I would kick her out of the house and file. If I was forcing R, I would rugsweep her issues and certainly wouldn't be picking fights with her over the look on her face after she blows me.

So I guess my question to you is: what outcome are you accusing me of forcing?

I am not understanding the impatience of some of the audience.

I don't see encouraging him to stick to a hard line he drew,as "impatience. "

Most BS know the danger they put themselves in,if they issue an ultimatum, and don't follow through. We know what that teaches the WS. Especially a WS who hasn't reached remorse. We have watched it happen here,time after time. And some of us have made that mistake,and know what's coming for doc. We were trying to shield him from that. It's the analogy you hear all the time on here. If you see someone driving towards a cliff, you try to stop them.

Honestly I don't understand the encouragement some of you are giving him, to stay with an abusive WS. I see a lot of projection of what you think she's thinking and feeling. I see a lot of excuses being made for her cruelty..difficult childhood,hard time in college,people pleaser,etc,etc. Imagine if we had a female BW, who had a WH who was hitting her. Would we be making excusing,and guessing reasons as to why he was abusive? Or would we encourage her to protect herself? Rhetorical question, because we know the answer. So basically what some are saying is..some forms of abuse aren't ok, but it's tolerable, if you understand they're a hurt child lashing out. It's ok to remain with them,even if they're being emotionally abusive, as long as they're trying to work things out. Sure, you will take some more hits in the meantime,but you can handle it.

I've been in a physically abusive relationship. And I've been emotionally abused. I promise you,I'd rather take a hit, than the emotional abuse. The mindfucking of emotional abuse never really goes away.

So..the impatience that you see is not impatience. It's those of us who have been there, trying to shield him from further pain.

Abuse is abuse. It should never be tolerated.

I have not encouraged him to stay or go. I have provided feedback on what I am seeing in the situation. I have no vested interest of what he ultimately decides to do with his marriage.

And I am not the only one projecting what we think is going on with her, I just do not assume that everything she does is purposefully malicious. And having been a ws who has actually been through the process, I do think I know a bit about it.

Show me a ws who gets it out of the gate completely after a few months or more of an ea/pa and I would be highly suspicious of what’s underneath that hood. Likely a psychopath who can be anything you want.

I have never once said she was safe, spoke against separation, or encouraged him to accept abusive behavior. I have encouraged him to look at his boundaries, consistency, and what he can control which is where his power is. The fact you read that as encouraging him to stay is interesting but I don’t see it that way at all.

And for what it’s worth, I wasn’t singling out anyones advice, I just felt like the last thing a bs needs on top of this shit show is being shamed for not being decisive more quickly. And I stated that I know all of it is with good intentions. But he is only ready to do what he is ready to do.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:22 PM, Friday, August 26th]

Also explaining the behavior is not at all the same as excusing it. Illuminating how a ws can think is more about letting him know what he is dealing with.

And dr. Yeah I would never find that to be funny but I do agree it’s equally important she does what makes you safe. And I also agree and stated that if she does this it should be very rare and with love and respect.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:39 PM, Friday, August 26th]

It was comedic hyperbole and the MC laughed out loud.

Your wife has an established history of people pleasing by offering sex that she does not want. Her low self esteem and attraction to asshole male behavior is most likely caused by underlying wounds, and it has led her to consistently swallow her anger and build resentment. Now it's reached the point where that world view is at imminent risk of ending her marriage. So you made a joke to your MC about how your wife's free consent is of no interest to you once your dick is in her mouth, and the MC laughed out loud? Your wife's licensed counselor, whom she is supposed to trust to be vulnerable, thought that was funny and joined with you in mocking her?

If this is true, she should have walked out of that room, signed that lease, and never spoken to either of you again except through an attorney.

Double post

[This message edited by HellFire at 4:09 PM, Friday, August 26th]

purposefully malicious.

That's my point. It doesn't matter if it's intentional. The result is the same. Abuse.

We encourage everyone to get out of infidelity immediately. Why shouldn't we do the same when it comes to getting out,or at least protecting yourself, from an abusive situation?

Doc, does she say cruel things to everyone? Your kids? Friends? Colleagues? Family? Anyone? Just you?

Threadjack — of sorts.

It is just only FIVE months since Doc’s dday.

Hell, I was in shock and changed my mind on a weekly basis about which direction I wanted to go.

For me, it wasn’t until YEAR three that I felt GOOD about MY decision.

So yeah, his WS also very new to RECOVERY from the trauma SHE caused.

Neither person in this M has their footing here and some people are pushing for a final outcome.

I don’t ever care HOW we get to the other side S, D, or R, just that we get there.

I think because Doc is articulate and able to generate a powerful sense of his pain on a regular basis, it is pulling in some strong reactions, as it should. But it doesn’t mean he is farther along in his own process than ANY of us 5-months after betrayal.

From this distance, with a limited perspective, it sure seems like could both of them could or should be much kinder to the other, but it can take some time.

Personally, if I were Doc, I would take a full stop and step back — let his mind clear a bit — and focus more on what his goals are overall and see how he wants to get there.

End t/j

I'm with Hellfire on this. Every single person who abuses someone has reasons that they're like that. Usually they're very sad reasons. They were abused emotionally, sexually or physically, they have mental health struggles, their parents sucked, a tragic event happened in their childhood, etc. and so on. Every single abusive person has a reason. Some of those reasons could bring us to tears in empathy and sorrow. Most people don't come right out of the womb as assholes. It is very possible to feel sad for the reasons a person abuses us and still extricate ourselves from being abused. It is not the job of the abused to perform psychotherapy on their abuser. That's the job of actual mental health professionals.

When someone is abusing you, they by definition do not respect you. It is not safe to live with someone who doesn't respect you.

I also see the misandry. If you were a woman, Drstrangelove, I expect everyone here would be screaming for you to leave and get somewhere safe. We switch the genders on this and it looks pretty bad, right? I tried to imagine how devastated and wrecked I would be if I had a partner enthusiastically begin seducing me and then after it was over treat me like I was disgusting and wasting his time. That is profoundly traumatic stuff. That is horrible behavior. It's a sexual wound. I am so sorry that you've been subjected to that.

You can stay and psychoanalyze her until you know this woman inside and out. Hell, I could write a 20 page thesis breaking down why my XWH turned out to be a serial cheater. There were lots of truly sad reasons. So what? Understanding him didn't make me safe with him.

I know it feels like people are pushing you to leave. I guess that's true in a sense. I see someone being abused and I want them to leave and save themselves further pain and trauma. Think of it as us caring what happens to you.

That's my point. It doesn't matter if it's intentional. The result is the same. Abuse.

We encourage everyone to get out of infidelity immediately. Why shouldn't we do the same when it comes to getting out,or at least protecting yourself, from an abusive situation?

But you are taking what I am saying as it’s fine for her to abuse him. What I am really trying to do is help find clues as to what is causing the behavior so she will stop. And why it’s not his responsibility that she is this way.We can’t change what we don’t acknowledge.

I have told him everything I can to detach from her and not to accept this behavior. But every single ws who comes here is abusive. They cheated, that’s abusive. They dehumanized their spouse. Trickle truth is abusive.

The shit we say because we are clueless is abusive.

It doesn’t matter if anyone thinks that he should divorce her and get away from the abuse. Until he has gone though his process of working with a therapist and figuring out why he enables the behavior he is not going to be able to change that.

My comments were not to defend her, it’s to understand that where you want him to be is not where he is. My explanation of her behavior does not justify it, it illuminates to him where it is and how to look for progress. What he wants to see instead. But I have also suggested working with his therapist to decide if there is a way to turn that around and measure himself.

So while I agree no one should tolerate abuse, I think what we are seeing is him experimenting with what works and doesn’t for him. It’s a process and one he shouldn’t be shamed for. Period.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:16 PM, Friday, August 26th]

You can stay and psychoanalyze her until you know this woman inside and out. Hell, I could write a 20 page thesis breaking down why my XWH turned out to be a serial cheater. There were lots of truly sad reasons. So what? Understanding him didn't make me safe with him.

I agree, however you know what you are working with and that’s why you divorced. Your husband was a drug addict and a serial cheater. I understand it doesn’t matter why he was but you did have to recognize he was too broken for you to ever be safe.

Honestly, I don’t know that’s what we are working with here. We have a woman who obviously has built up resentment. Who is not remorseful because she is caught up in her own feelings and can’t unwind it. This is a description of most any ws, some of which grew and the couple reconciled. He wants to see if that is possible.

No one thinks he shouldn’t protect himself in that process. It’s taking him time to catch in to that and how to trust his instincts on things. My whole point was to be patient with him, not her. And for some reason this is translating into he should stay and be abused. I don’t get that at all.

@Oldwounds - well put. People can't preach that it takes years to unpick their situation then, on the other hand, be want to see Doc make decisions in a few months. As much as we advise we also support.

Doc, you have our support with whichever path you travel.

I don't see encouraging him to stick to a hard line he drew,as "impatience. "

Most BS know the danger they put themselves in,if they issue an ultimatum, and don't follow through. We know what that teaches the WS. Especially a WS who hasn't reached remorse. We have watched it happen here,time after time. And some of us have made that mistake,and know what's coming for doc. We were trying to shield him from that. It's the analogy you hear all the time on here. If you see someone driving towards a cliff, you try to stop them.

Honestly I don't understand the encouragement some of you are giving him, to stay with an abusive WS. I see a lot of projection of what you think she's thinking and feeling. I see a lot of excuses being made for her cruelty..difficult childhood,hard time in college,people pleaser,etc,etc. Imagine if we had a female BW, who had a WH who was hitting her. Would we be making excusing,and guessing reasons as to why he was abusive? Or would we encourage her to protect herself? Rhetorical question, because we know the answer. So basically what some are saying is..some forms of abuse aren't ok, but it's tolerable, if you understand they're a hurt child lashing out. It's ok to remain with them,even if they're being emotionally abusive, as long as they're trying to work things out. Sure, you will take some more hits in the meantime,but you can handle it.

I've been in a physically abusive relationship. And I've been emotionally abused. I promise you,I'd rather take a hit, than the emotional abuse. The mindfucking of emotional abuse never really goes away.

So..the impatience that you see is not impatience. It's those of us who have been there, trying to shield him from further pain.

Abuse is abuse. It should never be tolerated.

Hellfire, I've addressed that point already. The issue for me was the definition of the hardline I established. It was very murky and her infraction was very murky. The consequence became a result of examining a rule rather than her intent or my feelings. I don't think she intended to hurt me and I didn't feel very hurt by what she did--but by the letter of the law I established, she had to move out.

Upon reflection, I decided that was incredibly silly. The intent behind my boundary is still there, but I now understand it better.

You also have concern about what this episode teaches my WW. I'm not teaching her anything--it's not my intent.

*If* she's looking to find lines she can cross and *if* she's looking to continue her abuse, then we won't be together much longer anyway. It's very important to me that *my* actions have purpose and are measured--and I did not feel confident nor comfortable with my action on this topic. And I take blame for it--I set up a weakly defined boundary; so much so that she didn't realize she potentially crossed it until too late.

That's my point. It doesn't matter if it's intentional. The result is the same. Abuse.

We encourage everyone to get out of infidelity immediately. Why shouldn't we do the same when it comes to getting out,or at least protecting yourself, from an abusive situation?

I don't think it's that simple. Abuse should not be defined by an outcome, but by intent. If Person A is in a verbal fight with his spouse, punches the fridge in frustration, and a magnet flies off and hits Person B in the eye, Person B needs to decide how to respond to that. Is it abuse? Perhaps. But it's certainly different than if Person A punched Person B in the face. It's why in law we segregate between manslaughter and murder.

In my example, person A still has anger issues that need to be addressed, but it's of an entirely different scale than the alternative I presented.

In my BJ incident from earlier this week, my wife became angry--and she needs to address that anger--but she wasn't malicious. She didn't double down and continue a verbal assault. She caught herself immediately and apologized. MY hurt was immeasurably less than the incident from a few weeks ago that caused the creation of the hard boundary--I'd liken that other incident to a punch in the face.