SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I agree with hellfire that this is more than just a blowjob gone bad. This is a repeated pattern of behavior. When I responded above to Marie, it was a brief update, I know she has also been following along.

However, I did not feel you felt ready for this separation. And honestly that part is your call. You are the one who has to live with your decisions and you know your situation on a level that none of us do. And no one knows how to navigate this until they have been all the way through the process themselves.

I agree with Neko, a lot of what is happening is codependency and what she describes sounds 100 percent true.

Things improved for us when we finally decided we were on the same team with the same goals, how we achieve those goals became a democracy between the two of us. Some of it goes against the general wisdom of this site. I am rooting for you to get the results you want.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

No it's not about a BJ, it's about your WW's inability to look inward, and own her shit, and her repeatedly hurting and abusing you.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

You are codpendent, You have used every excuse, and are still owning this as your responsibility.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

You are continuing to hurt yourself. Stop She ran out and found an apartment today. Did you ever stop to think that she did this because she has some sense of relief of not having to live up to and meet your expectations. Maybe she is ready to be done.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

Many kids survive divorce, and come out of it with healthy boundaries, and go on to pick good partners. You can ensure that your kids live through this, and learn how draw healthy boundaries, and develop normal healthy sexual relationships. You do that by being healthy and honest and not making it taboo, not grinding it out white knuckling an unhealthy relationship where one partner is constantly hurting the other.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

You remind me of another dad we had here many years ago who had an abusive wife that he too was unable to draw boundaries, and stick to them. He did eventually D her when her actions started harming the kids in a visible tangible manner. Abandondad.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

You deserve better, but only you can demand it.

^^^^THIS^^^^

I know some of you are about to come in strong, but I have to go with my gut.

The great thing about SI -- is everyone is on your side, even when folks come on strong.

Great experiences and ideas shared in all three of these near stream of conscience threads you have spilled out here.

But only YOU can live your life.

It took me a while to trust my own path and my gut, because my instincts failed me during the A. However, once I got back on my feet, trusted myself, and knew what I wanted, I got it.

My kids were grown by the time dday obliterated my world, so I understand why you made the call you did.

Separation is always an option.

Divorce is always on the table. Always. In any marriage on any day.

You'll find your way, with or without the M.

In the meanwhile, she has to find a very fast path to end that passive aggressive, rejection punishment weapon she has wielded.

I think Hiking's point about resentment is HUGE. Sounds like you resent that behavior from the past popping up again -- totally fair. But resentment from either of you will drown an R. Whatever resentments (her parents not staying over, old arguments, whatever) she has, she has to let them go.

If you read a lot of stories here, resentment has been a part of every failed R.

Ultimately, no one owes a WS a last chance. We don't. But if we do offer that final chance, it should be a real shot for them to self repair.

Whatever counseling happens, those resentments both real and imagined (most are pretty damn real with betrayal) on both sides have to get tackled.

Dr, now that you have made your decision, what will be different this time around? What is your game plan when this happens again? Not if, when. Would you consider in-house separation and stopping sex until you're both in a better place to handle it?

This thread drives me nuts (in so many ways) and I often ask myself why I’m still engaging. Of course that’s on me…and is in no way a reflection on you, DrS. You’re just doing what every newly betrayed BS does.

The most recent issue seems very simple to me. Sex for acceptance, validation is what is at the heart of the start of this whole mess (the affair) - and now we’re trying to unravel the exact same issue in your marriage. Can you see how for someone - that has relied on this as a coping mechanism - is now so lost in the first five months of recognizing and trying to change this? And while validation sex is not an issue in all of her relationships, the need to stay safe by pleasing someone else IS. I cannot imagine how confusing this all is for your wife. It doesn’t excuse her behavior or suggest that you should just accept it. But I don’t think the failures along the way suggest that the baby needs to be thrown out with the bath water either.

The part that drives me nuts is all the assigning intentionality and manipulation to her behavior. And THAT is what conflicts the issue in every negative update we get. I don’t want to argue this point with you, Dr…it’s an exercise in futility. It’s also a challenge because we have so many prior contributing factors to her reactive behavior that likely have exactly NOTHING to do with you. As an aside and for perspective, I just don’t even see how you can make decisions on your own validation (or how your wife feels about you) when she just gave away all the things you claim you need (from sex) in a pennies on the dollar affair exchange. If you really don’t want to be hurt by her sexual responses then quit having sex with her (for now at least). How’s that so different from physically separating?

At some point I think there are only two things you really need to reconcile within yourself:

1. Is she making effort…and is that effort resulting in any real progress?

2. How long can you give her? (And this doesn’t have to be an absolute…a hard line in the sand. It can instead be a point at which you will evaluate these two questions again. But, also as an aside, you’re going to have to focus on your need to control outcomes/develop an ability to sit with the unknown to be able to achieve this.)

But I don't think any of us are surprised that you've decided to erase the line,and draw another one.

Keeping the family together, at all costs, eventually costs too much.

yep. I assumed you would not go through with it.

I do hope that you move forward with an in house separation. No marriage. Simply coparent.

You are codependent. Your relationship is not healthy. Your kids are absorbing this unhealthy relationship and you seem determined to convince yourself otherwise.

What do you plan to do when she does this same hurtful behavior again? It isn't an if, its a when and how often.

Today I saw her love for me. She went out and found an apartment and put money down on her own in complete terror over the pain she was causing me.

How sure are you that the reason for this action is what you think it is (pain she caused you)?

Devil's Advocate: She did all that because she is scared of your reaction, not that she is remorseful of her actions to you. By forfeiting the deposit for the apartment, shows that she has no consequences. If you had let her go ahead as planned, but not stay away for the whole lease term, that would have enforced in her mind that there actually are consequences.

We all know that you want R subconsciously, even though you argue that you are neutral. Why do I say this? Virtually every action that you have taken is not a neutral stance. There are always some reason or other for you to stay with your WW.

I believe the quote below is what is fundamentally driving your thought process/actions:

I also wanted to break the chain of divorce by my parents. If this marriage can work, I want it to work.

You want to break the bad mojo of your parents M. You do not want your kids to potentially go through what you went through. Reality is, you and your WW are not your parents. Your M is not your parents M.

You are currently forcing the outcome, hence the inability to 'let go'. You think you have a rational brain at the moment, but from your postings, your thinking is not as straight as you think it is.

*start Gently now*
Look, whether you R or D, that is ultimately up to you. Thing is, it would be good to stop lying to yourself.
*end*

I think your decision came down to knowing she doesn't love you. Of course, you felt this before she told you directly.

If you know this, you must see separation as extremely risky because she doesn't have a real reason to keep trying after the separation. So from this viewpoint, separation looks like the ending of the marriage. From this viewpoint, you must keep the game going so she has time to start loving you. Only after that, it's possible for you to feel safe while enforcing consequences like that.

Unfortunately, you didn't learn how to create and enforce boundaries, and you didn't keep your word. She still lashed out and didn't understand the consequences of her behavior on a deeper level (deeper than just talk). There are consequences but much more diluted by self-preservation instinct.

She made a choice: separation, and you didn't let her have her choice. You saved her from her choice. I think starting to treat her like an adult is a good idea.

We can dig into her reasons and how she sees the world, if her behavior is malicious or stupid, or if she is just lost, but I think it doesn't matter. That discussion ultimately is "turtles all the way down" and we don't have a way to know other than HikingOut projections. Great insights, but still projections that surely are not entirely correct and can even be completely off.

You love her, so let's be honest here: You've endured years of her behavior, so you can take years and years more. And if you don't change something, you will have to endure. Nothing changes if nothing changes.

I think it now hurts so much because before, you guessed, it had to be that way. You thought she was like that and would be for everyone. That she loves you so she would never hurt you consciously and with malice. Now you think she would, and she is doing it. You look at your past and see all her behavior differently.

As long as you are both alive, you can always build new marriage. Nothing has to be final. You both wanting it is enough. Even after divorce.

Try to keep it simple.

I keep my fingers crossed! I'm sure you will figure it all out.

[This message edited by Stich at 12:18 PM, Thursday, August 25th]

Doc. Perhaps, as an interim step, it might be worthwhile to move to an in house separation (IHS), in lieu of your WW moving out at the current time. Having young kids alone would make her moving out a challenge.

However, to successfully do an IHS you will need to religiously follow the 180 - no interaction with your WW except for dealing with the kids snd household logistics. If you end up electing to do this, I strongly recommend you read up on this site the extensive literature on executing the 180. This is something you vehemently opposed since day one, but perhaps you may see it’s efficacy now. And, I think you need to implement this today. One of you needs to immediately move into the spare bedroom.

Of course, you need to propose this to your WW in a way where you are not back sliding on your hard boundary. Thus, you should make it clear to her that you plan to have limited interaction with her except for the kids snd household stuff. I would tell her that you propose the IHS solely for the children’s sake, and nothing else.

Both of you staying in the same home gives you the opportunity to observe her behavior. Any personal interaction/relationship discussions, however, should be conducted at your weekly MC sessions, and at no other times.

Dude, I've considered this again as well--and still am. I attempted it a few months ago (if I recall correctly, it followed the issue of her reading this thread and directly preceded the issue of her dinner plans with the affair-adjacent acquaintance)--I went total gray rock. I found it forced and unproductive and it led to a toxic living environment. I don't think it was right for me. Of the two options, I'd prefer her move out.

My perception is both would harm the kids in ways I can't calculate, so choosing between the two for their benefit is a fool's errand. As you point out, her moving out prevents me from observing her, so the only gain as far as I can tell is that it also prevents her from hurting me. It also would cost about $12,500 for the two month lease on the local 2B, furnished apartment. So sure, a part of me would like her to move out, but doing that to the kids was just too much for me and the cost is the cherry on top.

I'm unclear on what to do now though. The MC session went fine. The MC thought an intermediary step was needed--something to protect me from her while not committing to moving out and disrupting the children. The MC suggested only having sex when my WW initiates for now. As discussed with HO, I see flaws in that approach, but it might be a bit of a safeguard; as would us just not having sex entirely--that seems more logical to me between the two.

From my WW's perspective, she doesn't think either is necessary--she thinks the solution is for us to just better communicate before sex and for her to be transparent about how she's feeling. Seems ideal, but I know with certainty I can't trust her to do that. There are just too many variables that make her unreliable.

Ultimately, I haven't made a decision on what to do. I was up early this morning and I tried to focus on the problem rather than all the unideal solutions. The problem is me getting hurt by my WW--that's what I'm looking to mitigate. I cannot trust my WW not to hurt me in her current state. And I'm seemingly susceptible to her method of hurting me as long as I love her.

The MC dug a bit on this as well, noting how strange she finds it that I'm willing to be so vulnerable with my wife, noting most BS are more protective of themselves (HO made the same point yesterday). I didn't have a good answer for the MC--aside from the possibility that I'm a masochist...

I suspect it's because most of our sex is very positive. It disarms me. We'll fool around 10x and it will be light and fun and I'm quickly oblivious to the idea that #11 will hurt me. Even in the incident the other day--I genuinely didn't see it coming. Why? Seems strange considering I've been dealing with it our entire relationship. But every time is this shock and hurt. I'm not sure what that is inside my brain.

I thought the boundary was no more cruelty and abusive language towards you in,and out,of the bedroom? Therefore,it wouldn't be because of a BJ gone wrong. You saying that is a HUGE minimization of what she's done(for years).

More specifically, I think it's her contempt for me at times in the bedroom. If we were just reading a transcript of what happened, there wasn't an issue--so it's less what she says than it is how she is feeling when she says it. In the moments following the BJ, she was very angry with me. I was a nuisance to her. There was no love. That's what hurts me.

If she's looking at sex as this thing she does to please men, then it annoys her when it comes at times inconvenient to her. I then am an inconvenience, which I'm not ok with.

But I don't think any of us are surprised that you've decided to erase the line,and draw another one.

I understand that you're invested in my situation, but this isn't a dramatic novel. The story is not designed to entice and entertain you. It's my life and I'm doing the best I can.

Keeping the family together, at all costs, eventually costs too much.

Well that's the thing really: cost. Right now it's a scale between my pain and the children's happiness. The cost is not total yet. Ultimately, it's a matter of what I can live with. Upon reflection, her anger the other day doesn't justify the damage to the children. Perhaps it just needs to be more egregious so that I can't justify a mitigated reaction; and if you're right, that will happen eventually and we'll be back to her moving out.

Does your gut allow for the possibility that you might be in a codependent relationship?

Has the subject come up in MC or IC?

The cycle of control and enabling is in evidence in your threads. By controlling I mean trying to help change, advise and rescue. The sense that you can bring about change through your influence and help. You derive satisfaction from helping, supporting others. Others needs come before yours and those needs get minimized. Or like now, completely dismissed for the higher priority of keeping the family together.

I would add to that you desire to have as much information and data as you can to mull over, discuss and debate about your wives behavior. You shut the door on discussing yours.

You put yourself and your wife in situations where she can’t meet your expectations, fails then you help her see where she failed and can improve.

You can set up whatever rules and requirements you want in R. And you have. Hows it working for you?

You need to let go of the denial. The lack of progress is not just down to her abuse and failure. You can’t detach and work on yourselves when you are as enmeshed as you are.

Until you recognize your part in this unbalanced relationship, you will keep living in your groove. I in no way dismiss your wives behavior and abuse. Your inability to detach, establish boundaries and desire to control the outcome needs to be addressed.

Are you willing to dig into that or we can just go back to talking about your WW.
Editing to apologize for going snarky at the end.

[This message edited by redrock at 1:32 PM, Thursday, August 25th]

However, I did not feel you felt ready for this separation. And honestly that part is your call. You are the one who has to live with your decisions and you know your situation on a level that none of us do. And no one knows how to navigate this until they have been all the way through the process themselves.

Yesterday I felt very ready for the separation. I actually felt a bit guilty looking forward to it. My WW was going to move on Tuesday (Aug. 30) and I saw it as a bit of needed relief. Ultimately, I couldn't justify it.

I agree with Neko, a lot of what is happening is codependency and what she describes sounds 100 percent true.

Perhaps.

Things improved for us when we finally decided we were on the same team with the same goals, how we achieve those goals became a democracy between the two of us. Some of it goes against the general wisdom of this site. I am rooting for you to get the results you want.

I'm trying to get there.

No it's not about a BJ, it's about your WW's inability to look inward, and own her shit, and her repeatedly hurting and abusing you.

Of course.

You are codpendent, You have used every excuse, and are still owning this as your responsibility.

I have one excuse: doing the best I possibly can for my children is 100% my responsibility--that's my north star. That's what I signed up for when I decided to father them. My WW should feel the same as their mother--it doesn't seem she does though and I have no control over that. I set out to do this with my wife as a partnership--and we have for the most part--but she's not holding up her end of the deal right now, so the weight is on me. I feel I'm absolutely carrying the burden now, but I don't look at it in terms of it being good/bad or fair/unfair.

You are continuing to hurt yourself. Stop She ran out and found an apartment today. Did you ever stop to think that she did this because she has some sense of relief of not having to live up to and meet your expectations. Maybe she is ready to be done.

I thought about that a lot yesterday. I still am this morning. A part of me might even wish for it to be true.

EDIT: I want to edit this a bit. Truthfully, I don't know. I think there's certainly some truth to that--a part of her thought of the apartment as a relief from the negative atmosphere--her way to get a breath of fresh air. I suspect there are a lot of weights on the scale for her as well.

As for her being ready to be done, I don't see that--but I suppose I wouldn't see it until it happens.

Many kids survive divorce, and come out of it with healthy boundaries, and go on to pick good partners. You can ensure that your kids live through this, and learn how draw healthy boundaries, and develop normal healthy sexual relationships. You do that by being healthy and honest and not making it taboo, not grinding it out white knuckling an unhealthy relationship where one partner is constantly hurting the other.

I've given my position on this too many times to count and I'm willing to agree to disagree--and I disagree *strongly* with your framing. Many people can survive a heart transplant and lead a healthy future life, but it's not a procedure you go into without exhausting every other available option first.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 2:23 PM, Thursday, August 25th]

The great thing about SI -- is everyone is on your side, even when folks come on strong.

Great experiences and ideas shared in all three of these near stream of conscience threads you have spilled out here.

But only YOU can live your life.

It took me a while to trust my own path and my gut, because my instincts failed me during the A. However, once I got back on my feet, trusted myself, and knew what I wanted, I got it.

My kids were grown by the time dday obliterated my world, so I understand why you made the call you did.

Separation is always an option.

Divorce is always on the table. Always. In any marriage on any day.

You'll find your way, with or without the M.

Thank you OldWounds. It's appreciated.

In the meanwhile, she has to find a very fast path to end that passive aggressive, rejection punishment weapon she has wielded.

I think Hiking's point about resentment is HUGE. Sounds like you resent that behavior from the past popping up again -- totally fair. But resentment from either of you will drown an R. Whatever resentments (her parents not staying over, old arguments, whatever) she has, she has to let them go.

If you read a lot of stories here, resentment has been a part of every failed R.

I agree and I've seized on that. I kept bringing us back to it in MC yesterday as well.

My WW's answer was that she feels my tone with her often doesn't make her feel like my wife. I'm disagreeable and lean into conflict with everyone in my life and my WW feels I should treat her differently--I think I do, but it's clearly not enough in her eyes. FWIW, I'm trying to avoid conflict on menial matters with her and feel like I'm doing a good job; she agrees, but just pivots to behavior from years ago. Essentially, her justifications for the affair was my behavior toward her, so she can't let that go now.

She also noted that losing conflicts with me makes her angry. She recognizes it's not my fault and admits I'm more thoughtful and prepared in our conflicts. But the result is that she always feels like she's losing with me, even if the loss is justified. To me, her solution *should* be to stop thoughtless commentary and stop engaging in poorly formed arguments, but she can't see it--she's entitled to winning conflict without any preparation or foresight.

I have one excuse: doing the best I possibly can for my children is 100% my responsibility--that's my north star. That's what I signed up for when I decided to father them. My WW should feel the same as their mother--it doesn't seem she does though and I have no control over that. I set out to do this with my wife as a partnership--and we have for the most part--but she's not holding up her end of the deal right now, so the weight is on me. I feel I'm absolutely carrying the burden now, but I don't look at it in terms of it being good/bad or fair/unfair.

Picking up the burden for her is part of the dance of codependency described in "Codependent No More". Unfortunately, it doesn't lead to a lovely future where your WW will thank you for keeping everything together and acknowledge this sacrifice that you have made. It leads to a future outburst. Won't likely happen today or maybe even a few weeks from now. But once she feels the threat of separation has lifted and she's tired of playing the part of the good wife she has made for herself, she will do it again and think that it won't be so bad because all she has to do is weather your emotions for a bit. She may react to any threats or boundaries stated but she will know deep down that they won't come to fruition. She will remember that you need her more than she needs you.

I understand that this is a merry-go-round you have to ride a few more times before you're ready to get off. I know because I did it too.

this isn't a dramatic novel. The story is not designed to entice and entertain you

What an odd thing to say. Coming from someone who,just a few days ago,said he truly appreciated my posts because they are so in line with his thoughts. This sounds like something your WW would say.

Aside from the obnoxious post in the beginning, I believe I've been extremely supportive of you,and your situation. I've never once thought of this, or anyone else's situation here,as something for entertainment. That's insulting.

Tell me how what I said wasn't true? You drew a very clear boundary. She crossed it. You were encouraged FOR VERY GOOD REASONS, not to back down,and give her real consequences. You backed down. Anyone who has been advising you since you got here was most likely sure you were going to erase the line,and draw a new one. You've done it before. You tell us how she feels,and she gets it now. Then it happens again,she cries, is "destroyed," you make excuses for her. As tushnurse said..lather,rinse,repeat.

Regardless, that was an odd thing to say to someone who has only tried to help you. And, BTW, tried to help your wife. I'm probably the only one who encouraged her to post here, because,at the time, she really seemed to want to help everyone heal,but seemed lost on how to go about it. I really thought the former waywards here could help her. She turned her back on that. Which is a shame.

I've been here for awhile. I'm blunt. I don't sugar-coated. I try to help. Sometimes I trigger and say things that could be worded better. But I've never thought of anyone's situation as a dramatic novel, and entertainment.

But,again,that sounds like something an unremorseful WS would say about the BS here. It's just odd coming from you.

I suspect it's because most of our sex is very positive. It disarms me. We'll fool around 10x and it will be light and fun and I'm quickly oblivious to the idea that #11 will hurt me. Even in the incident the other day--I genuinely didn't see it coming. Why? Seems strange considering I've been dealing with it our entire relationship. But every time is this shock and hurt. I'm not sure what that is inside my brain.

10/11 positive sex encounters = really good odds. The one "bad" episode is seemingly the one you choose to hold in your head and your heart. Do you understand why you choose to focus on the one bad encounter? Are you expecting perfection from an imperfect human (yourself or others)?

You say you recognize that what you are doing isn't currently working (and that MC made some suggestions). I think I heard you say that you wanted to start leading with love. What does that look like to you? How will you practice that with your wife and your family? Will your wife get a vote on the changes? I would think that "leading with love" would take into account the wants and needs of wife and family.

What about your strong reactions to things that don't go your way? Your need to cancel the pool party, or the upcoming vacation based on that one bad interaction (and discounting the 10 positive interactions)? Are you able to see that you're taking away positive bonding experiences for you and your family. Are you able to see that this is not helpful to you (as it keeps you locked in the past, and from experiencing your life as it is presently unfolding)?

Cancel culture is the current thing (get that shit out of your life!). I get that. Hate and revenge are rampant in the world right now. Hurt people hurt people. Why are we all hurting each other? How does that help? That certainly is not leading with love.

The goal, IMHO, should be to stop the suffering (of others and of ourselves). There is no reason to increase the suffering and pain. Seriously, breathe that bad juju out of your body, mind, and heart. Love, Marie

The part that drives me nuts is all the assigning intentionality and manipulation to her behavior. And THAT is what conflicts the issue in every negative update we get. I don’t want to argue this point with you, Dr…it’s an exercise in futility. It’s also a challenge because we have so many prior contributing factors to her reactive behavior that likely have exactly NOTHING to do with you. As an aside and for perspective, I just don’t even see how you can make decisions on your own validation (or how your wife feels about you) when she just gave away all the things you claim you need (from sex) in a pennies on the dollar affair exchange. If you really don’t want to be hurt by her sexual responses then quit having sex with her (for now at least). How’s that so different from physically separating?

Yes, I think not having sex is a logical starting point for the short term. We also now have six days without the kids, so an in-house separation would be fairly simple. We also have discussed the possibility of her going to a hotel for a few days, but that's an expensive option.

To the larger point, I don't think you're framing it properly. I'm not putting a value on sex--sex is cheap to my wife, obviously. I'm recognizing the contempt she has for me that is exposed during or after sex. She has a lot of bottled resentment for me that she is unable to process. And you're right, I'm now looking for validation from her that she loves me when it seems clear she does not--at least not in the way I'm looking for.

At some point I think there are only two things you really need to reconcile within yourself:

1. Is she making effort…and is that effort resulting in any real progress?

I think she's making effort--I don't know if it's enough and I don't know how to measure her progress.

2. How long can you give her? (And this doesn’t have to be an absolute…a hard line in the sand. It can instead be a point at which you will evaluate these two questions again. But, also as an aside, you’re going to have to focus on your need to control outcomes/develop an ability to sit with the unknown to be able to achieve this.)

I don't know. I gave her six months--which was an estimate from the start--but I feel like the first phase of this process has organically concluded. I don't know why I feel that way. I think her moving out is still a very real possibility in the very near future. It's going to be based on her attitude, which from my vantage point, it's very promising.

Look, if she's still fucking up in all the same ways, I can't will this M to work. At that point, it'd simply be a matter of letting her go. I pulled the breaks yesterday because I felt like I was overreacting and she didn't want to go. I could see that changing now though--I'll be interested to observe the dynamic today. She still has until tomorrow to sign the lease, so it wouldn't take much for us to still go that route.

How the hell is her looking for apartments and putting a down payment on one not a "game over"?!

Why is everyone writing paragraphs upon paragraphs overanalyzing the situation after something like that?!

Am I the only person on SI who finds this bizarre?

Edit;add The only way any of makes sense to me is that if she’s ready to be done with the marriage but loses her nerve every time you back down after an altercation.

The other option is that she’s a psychopath who enjoys toying with you, and wants to see how far she can push you before you go over the edge. But I’m going to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she’s not a soap opera villain.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 3:42 PM, Thursday, August 25th]