SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Dr, this is not a failure on your part. That is her responsibility to bear. However, this also doesn't mean that the marriage is over if you're both still willing to work on it. You need this boundary for your own safety and sanity. She needs to learn to uphold her agreements and experience the consequences of breaking them. It doesn't feel good now but it gets easier.

Perhaps, but this feels deeper than "breaking an agreement."

I'm asking her to stop intentionally hurting me and she can't do it. There's no commitment she can make now or in the future that will change the way she feels about me. She *wants* to hurt me. Whatever resentments she's built toward me are deep and I don't understand them.

Now there is consequences that she knew about and probably didnt think would actually happen.

I don't think that's true. She knew what was coming before I even convinced myself to enforce the consequence. She looked at apartments and discussed the separation in IC before we even spoke last night. Then afterward, she cancelled our vacation reservations and put a down-payment on an apartment right away. She's clear-eyed and understands she crossed the line and what the consequences for it would be.

I get the sense that she feels awful for continually hurting me--she's not guilting me or trying to manipulate an outcome. She's seemingly running away as fast as she can to protect me. And in between all of that, she's uncontrollably crying.

Oppositely, I'm in a bit of a daze. I can't understand any of this.

The only thing that makes sense to me logically is if she recognizes she doesn't love me and knows she'll get that clarity with separation--perhaps she knows this is the end. My gut tells me that's wrong, but nothing else makes sense. If she *wanted* to be with me and the kids, she wouldn't *want* to hurt me knowing that would prevent it.

I get the sense that she feels awful for continually hurting me--she's not guilting me or trying to manipulate an outcome. She's seemingly running away as fast as she can to protect me. And in between all of that, she's uncontrollably crying.

I doubt this. You are projecting your way of thinking on to her. You are assuming she feels bad for making you feel bad, but nothing about her actions support this.

I am sorry you are hurting so much today.

Perhaps you're right. She may be taking the coward's way out by forcing you to uphold your boundaries so she has no choice but to accept the end when that is actually what she does want. In reality, it has been all of her choices that got you here. By letting you call it by enforcing boundaries, she gets to keep that victim role where she is so comfortable.

All that matters is that you need to be apart so you can heal.

[This message edited by clouds777 at 3:32 PM, Wednesday, August 24th]

I agree with hikingout.

My WW didn't think refusing me oral sex yesterday would end the marriage.

She did have a strong pull to please me though, even though she didn't *want* to please me in that moment. As HO points out, it felt like a task she had to complete before she could go resume her work back downstairs. So once she began the act, she gradually became more and more angry that I was providing her with an obstacle in her day.

She put all that on herself though. It wasn't my requirement and hasn't been for several months. She chose to ignore her own boundary and then she chose to lash out at me.

I doubt this. You are projecting your way of thinking on to her. You are assuming she feels bad for making you feel bad, but nothing about her actions support this.

I am sorry you are hurting so much today.

I suppose all I can do is disagree then. I was not expecting this response from her either. It doesn't much matter though--it's the same outcome.

Okay, you changed the requirement. You did not lift the requirement. That was all I could talk you into at the time.

However, most of the major blowups have been about sex. I believe she still views this completely different than you think. I understand how you are seeing it - proof of life basically. But as I have said before this is like measuring out a glass of milk with a ruler.

My husbands requirement was more initiating, more enthusiasm. In my way wayward brain that meant initiatiate daily. If I did not do that, then I would worry about it so I rarely skipped it. I felt pressure there and there wasn’t a history of problems. Had their been a history of problems my pressure would have been greater not less.

Feeling that sex is tied to whether one can stay married is never not going to add pressure. I don’t remember what the requirement was before it being just more sex, but it does seem that when she has said no or didnt feign complete enjoyment you were on this site the very next day in a complete funk. Sometimes it lasted for a week or more. In fact every time you have been angry that I remember it involved sex.

I personally thinks she holds that in until she can’t and it comes out in blurts rather than real communication. So let’s say if you wanted to build a good sex life right now, it would require communication. But any communication that says "I don’t like what is happening" results in huge blow ups that last for days.

It doesn’t really matter that there weren’t sex issues prior to the affair for us- the affair was one giant sex wound for him. So he wanted some sort of assurance that I loved him. This is what he looked for proof. So I had to feign sexual desire that wasn’t there. But it wasn’t not there because I didn’t love him, find him attractive. It wasn’t there because of the other reasons I already stated. But it didn’t build a bridge to a better sexual connection. It was when we put that away and started from scratch in an authentic way.

If there was no affair and he had said to me "we need to work on our sex life". A woman who writes you notes and is expressive about her love to you might open up and say "I need more of this" for me it was foreplay and touching, being loving, Connecting emotionally. But the affair blocked so much of the communication around sex. We would have a blow up when I would try so I just stick to compliance and I did feel disgusted by it. It felt like he wanted my body but not me specifically. And honestly he would have been incapable of making me feel any other way because of the damage I caused him. He wasn’t in the place to be vulnerable and connect with me in that way.

Your wife is having sex under duress. That doesn’t have anything to do with whether you cause the duress or not. Duress can come from her own perceptions.

In her ws brain that is all she is capable of seeing it as. So I believe her disgust comes from that not because she is disgusted by you. The biggest recent evidence is after MC what she got out of it was she can’t make you feel small sexually. That is all she sees because that’s when you fight. I understand she could have said no yesterday but she is in this highly reactive state. If anything to me that reactive state is because she wants to stay married to you.

I do understand there is a question about your sexual compatibility due to the history. I also know you had some sort of permission to get your needs met in online sex play but do you also think there was part of her that felt like she wasn’t enough for you sexually because she didn’t share your kinks? Instead of communicating that she felt entitled to be serviced. Your wife takes slights and turns them into entitlement. That entitlement extended to feeling entitled to cheat.

I point this out because we have a couple here that have had a terrible sex life for years. You now want for her to show up healthy here before she has gotten healthier and before your relationship has gotten better. And you have the thing you all have struggled with as a measuring stick to boot.

There is part of me that has to wonder are you productively addressing the areas you are not compatible and and finding solutions? What if she didn’t enjoy the blow job, have you asked her why? And then use that as a building block towards figuring out the ways you both could have enjoyed it for next time? Her blurt was her being honest about it. I get why that is hurtful and abusive, at the same time her blurts are coming from a lot of things she is bottling up because she doesn’t feel you will hear them and it will result in a big fight.

You see it as she is punishing you. I don’t discount that is true. Why does she feel that you need punishment in this category? This is something she needs to explore and answer honestly. I believe there is part of her that has her own wound to heal and is taking it out in you. Either it’s something from her past (history of sexual abuse?)or it’s really like sex is on default rather than something the two of you are working to cultivate and connect through. Or she honestly felt resentful of your online stuff and punished you for
Or making her feel like she wasn’t enough.

I will stop now, but I feel I would be doing a disservice to not try to say this to you when your family hangs in the balance. That being said, I do not condone abusive behavior and do support the separation if that’s what is needed.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:00 PM, Wednesday, August 24th]

Hikingout, I see your point but I have to ask - how does this apply to the years of her acting like this pre-A? What about her disgust back then? Did a switch flip after DDay so that now any disgust she shows is at herself and not at Dr like it had been before? I don't think him or many of us following along understand how any of this makes sense as an explanation of how she's thinking and feeling post A when it was happening pre-A and his WW had said it was for the reasons Dr has been describing WRT anger and resentment at him.

And then use that as a building block towards figuring out the ways you both could have enjoyed it for next time?

Her blurt was her being honest about it. I get why that is hurtful and abusive, at the same time her blurts are coming from a lot of things she is bottling up because she doesn’t feel you will hear them and it will result in a big fight.

I think it is entirely unrealistic to expect him to be vulnerable with her in this way when she continually insults him and hurts him intentionally because she can't deal with her own feelings or inability to communicate. She is choosing to bottle them up and not even give him an opportunity to respond because of what she imagines will happen. He doesn't even have a chance to not listen or have a big fight.

So she provides zero vulnerability and he should be ready to be fully vulnerable and talk it through with her after being rejected or worse, insulted, by his cheating wife? I think this is putting way way too much on Doc, the abuse victim in this current situation, to fix this and an out for his wife. Maybe she wants an out and doesn't want to have to make that choice? She could choose to be vulnerable first and speak up when she didn't want to do something. She doesn't. She may have 100 valid reasons why she doesn't but she could choose to be vulnerable first and she doesn't.

No, I do not feel that he should be vulnerable. In fact I just added to where I said my husband could not provide this to me because of the damage I caused that he would have been unable to be vulnerable. This was before seeing your post.

I am not asking him to do anything differently. I am offering the explanation of what she is experiencing. And describing how it could be resolved in a healthy way. If you have followed what I have been telling him all along it was not to work on the marriage at all. Nothing can be worked on in a marriage 5 months post affair and especially not the thing your struggles the worst with.

Neko- my answer is in the post I already wrote. She resented his online sexual adventures even though she on the surface agreed to allow it. I think she harbored a great deal of resentment and felt entitled to be serviced.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:01 PM, Wednesday, August 24th]

Neko- my answer is in the post I already wrote. She resented his online sexual adventures even though she on the surface agreed to allow it.

I could be wrong but I thought her emotional abuse pre-dated that and it was Dr's poor solution to the situation.

I could be wrong there too. I think essentially there was sexual incompatibility. And it was likely dealt with poorly by both sides in this case. She felt like not enough far before they resorted to allowing him the online outlet. That doesn’t mean he deserves abuse or that her behavior is justified. Explaining a behavior is different- I am hoping that exposing possible reasons for the behavior that it could be changed. Change doesn’t happen without awareness of how and why we do things.

In any case, her making herself feel under duress for whatever reason is the only thing here that can make sense to me. If it’s wrong I have encouraged him to disregard.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:12 PM, Wednesday, August 24th]

HikingOut, thank you for expanding on your point.

Okay, you changed the requirement. You did not lift the requirement. That was all I could talk you into at the time.

True. Abstaining from sex entirely wasn't an option for me after our sexual history and her affair. I agree with your point that any requirement on sex complicates things, but that was her burden to figure out--and she clearly failed.

However, most of the major blowups have been about sex.

They're never about sex--they're about how she treats me--sex is the background. She has plenty of issues in our conversations that have nothing to do with sex--she's plenty hurtful other times--but in those other instances my cloths are on and I'm less vulnerable. If I'm making love to her, the knife cuts deeper--especially when you combine it with the sexual trauma she's caused previously. That's why I made it a hard boundary. In fact, I literally told her that I'm not expecting her to be perfect and understand she'll mess up and be hurtful at times, "just don't do it when my pants are off."

I thought that was reasonable. She agreed.

My husbands requirement was more initiating, more enthusiasm. In my way wayward brain that meant initiatiate daily. If I did not do that, then I would worry about it so I rarely skipped it. I felt pressure there and there wasn’t a history of problems. Had their been a history of problems my pressure would have been greater not less.

And you seemingly managed to navigate that requirement without being cruel to him. It seems you're suggesting the requirement wasn't easy--which I don't dispute.

Ok, so you're better under pressure than my WW. Where does that leave me? I need to give her a few months or years to try to sort herself out and take sex off the table while she does? Essentially, she's incapable of having a sexual relationship with me now without abusing me, so the solution should be for me to either deal with the abuse or abstain from sex?

I genuinely wonder if you're shaking your head up and down or right and left while you read that lol.

But I'll take that a bit further even. Is there some compromise we could arrive at to resolve our sexual conflict while also not breaking up the family? Perhaps there is, but it would require open and honest communication from my WW; something she's incapable of. So even if she proposes a solution and I agree to it, she almost certainly won't mean it. It leaves me in an impossible spot. She has an underlying desire to hurt me and she constantly agrees to things she doesn't agree with. She's not an honest, well-intentioned broker in a negotiation.

I personally thinks she holds that in until she can’t and it comes out in blurts rather than real communication. So let’s say if you wanted to build a good sex life right now, it would require communication. But any communication that says "I don’t like what is happening" results in huge blow ups that last for days.

I think that's partially fair. I'm only critical of when she is angry and cruel in the moment--she takes an intimate sexual moment and uses it to remind me that she doesn't love me.

So let's take yesterday's incident and say it happened exactly the same way, minus her outburst at the end. She then could have processed what happened and brought it up at night, letting me know she didn't enjoy the session and providing reasons, suggestions, etc. I am *always* open to that type of feedback, but it requires self-awareness and restraint from her in the moment. You might argue though that I'm asking her to be inauthentic in the moment, but I disagree. One can be authentic without blurting out whatever emotion or thought is passing through one's body at any given time.

I do understand there is a question about your sexual compatibility due to the history. I also know you had some sort of permission to get your needs met in online sex play but do you also think there was part of her that felt like she wasn’t enough for you sexually because she didn’t share your kinks? Instead of communicating that she felt entitled to be serviced. Your wife takes slights and turns them into entitlement. That entitlement extended to feeling entitled to cheat.

I think there's a lot going on there. Yes, I suspect she felt inadequate that I resorted to online activities to fulfil some of my sexual desires. I think more than that though she just didn't understand my kinks and didn't want to understand them. And I suspect the way our sex-life devolved to her largely being the dominant figure in the bedroom contributed to our problems. Quite honestly, my WW just wanted to get fucked and she wasn't getting that frequently from me--it was her own fault though do to her passive aggressive and hurtful comments after sex. She turned our sex life negative and we both suffered for it. And that long pre-dates my online activities.

So sure, she then piled on numerous issues onto me (mostly wrongfully), and those, combined with her sexual frustration, left her to feeling entitled to have an affair. But I find the framing of that a bit childish--because objectively, given the situation, I would have been the one entitled to having an affair as she directly caused the strife that hurt both of us. I didn't have an affair though--because I'm not a child.

What if she didn’t enjoy the blow job, have you asked her why?

Yes, I asked her. She was preoccupied with work and simply not in the mood to fool around.

And then use that as a building block towards figuring out the ways you both could have enjoyed it for next time?

The solution was her saying exactly what you wrote in your first post; something like, "I'd love to play now, but I need to get back to work. I promise to make it up to you later!"

It's so simple: she upholds her boundary; leaves me wanting more--win-win.

You see it as she is punishing you. I don’t discount that is true. Why does she feel that you need punishment in this category? This is something she needs to explore and answer honestly. I believe there is part of her that has her own wound to heal and is taking it out in you.

Agreed. I do not have any clarity on this. I hope she is discussing it in IC, but she won't even acknowledge that it's true to me.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 4:22 PM, Wednesday, August 24th]

I don’t disagree with you at all. What you are experiencing from her is not something I am telling you to endure. And I am not blaming you for her childish behaviors. I do agree that it’s like a child. I had many things that were underdeveloped and childish. People who cheat are not model adults.

What I am trying to do is open a door where she can get underneath the behavior. You are the only one here to tell. If she can identify her responsibilities in this, why she is doing them, then she can change them.

I don’t think the rule should have been to abstain either. I think the best solution is for things to happen when they authentically happen. I know why you can’t make love to your wife and it has to be more purely sex based. I get that totally. But you also can expect that things may not improve until the two of you are in that place.

I find it ironic to be told I am expecting you to be vulnerable but literally creating a situation where there is an expectation about sex suddenly being positive is what is making you the most vulnerable.

For her this is a continuation of the pattern prior to the A . My husband has a kink that maybe weighs a bit less than yours. It was something I largely ignored prior to the A. It’s something I will never relate to and not because I haven’t tried. But I am no longer threatened by it because of the work I have done on it so it gets incorporated much better. She likely perceives your kink as her shortcoming. And she doesn’t like feeling like she is is the inadequate one so she turns it into something toxic so she feels stronger.

I am merely suggesting you have placed an expectation of something that she thinks is an expectation of something else. To her she feels she has lost her autonomy because she had an affair. In reality you are looking for proof you two can have a healthy sex life. But why do you think she is able to suddenly deliver this to you?

She literally has to first admit there is resentment, then figure out it’s source, then remove it’s source by changing the narrative she has told herself for years.

Honestly maybe the separation removes the sex for a while as she unravels this for herself. Sex is a very complicated aspect of a relationship because it’s problems are usually symptoms of things that happen in between the sex.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:01 PM, Wednesday, August 24th]

Let me clarify the timeline a bit of our sexual issues.

We started seeing each other as fuck buddies in 2005-2006 (as noted, she had slept with 20+ guys the two years prior and had a lot of sexual baggage that I didn't pick up on). By late 2006, we started dating and became exclusive. We'd see each other almost every weekend and have great sex all the time.

In 2008, she moved in with me. At that time, our sex life took a nose-dive. She started to complain about sex hurting her and she disconnected from me sexually. That's when the negativity started--it was mild, passive aggressive comments for the most part. Sex reduced and most of our intimate time was spent with me using my fingers on her while she gave me oral sex. I found it repetitive, but that's always what she wanted to do. She's like that in all things though--she likes to stick with things that work and is terrified/anxious about change.

She attributes the lack of sex to a very difficult time in her life professionally. Her work-life balance from 2009-2013 was completely fucked--many days she'd leave for the office before 7 a.m. and return home after 11 p.m.

I'm projecting here, but knowing her victim-mindset and entitlement, I suspect she took some of that anger out on me, who worked 9-to-5 and had plenty of leisure time. It was during this timeframe that I first began exploring things online.

In 2012 we married. In 2013 I built her our dream house. Her work schedule was especially horrific in 2013, so the house fell entirely on me.

In 2015 we had our first child.

2016/17 is when I began pushing my kink more with her. Our sex life was shit, so giving her more oral sex seemed to be the only thing she didn't complain about and it still let us have a physical connection. Her passive aggressive comments ramped up during this timeframe when we'd have sex, so it just re-enforced the idea that oral sex on her was an ideal way to proceed with our sex life.

Even though I was physically playing out my kink with her, she wouldn't engage at all mentally. That's when my online activities ramped up. She was aware of it, but didn't have any desire to understand.

2019 was a rough year--I had a massive nasal tumor and we had our second child--we had intercourse less than 10x that year.

She met AP in the summer of 2021 and had her sexual awakening.

What I am trying to do is open a door where she can get underneath the behavior. You are the only one here to tell. If she can identify her responsibilities in this, why she is doing them, then she can change them.

She takes blame for what happened yesterday--she takes blame for all the instances. But she is convinced the silver bullet is establishing boundaries and not engaging in sexual activity when she's in a bad mindset. I suspect her strong conviction on the direction is being re-enforced in IC.

I don't doubt that's a good approach, but she needs to dig deeper to avoid hurting me in the interim. She needs to understand why she keeps stacking up all this resentment for me.

I don’t think the rule should have been to abstain either. I think the best solution is for things to happen when they authentically happen.

Yesterday felt authentic to me. Or do you mean she should always initiate so it's always authentic for her? Because I'd say she'd still feel pressure to initiate and it wouldn't be authentic then either.

I know why you can’t make love to your wife and it has to be more purely sex based. I get that totally. But you also can expect that things may not improve until the two of you are in that place.

I can absolutely make love to my wife now. It doesn't need to be sex-based at all. We have had plenty of romantic sex these passed five months.

She likely perceives your kink as her shortcoming. And she doesn’t like feeling like she is is the inadequate one so she turns it into something toxic so she feels stronger.

I think you're spot on. Seemingly, the solution to that would be for her to gain an interest in it so she understands it. Doesn't seem likely.

I am merely suggesting you have placed an expectation of something that she thinks is an expectation of something else. To her she feels she has lost her autonomy because she had an affair. In reality you are looking for proof you two can have a healthy sex life. But why do you think she is able to suddenly deliver this to you?

Excellent question. I suppose that's selfishness on my part. I *deserve* for her to deliver to me a healthy sex life and place the weight on her to make that happen. Is that unfair? I don't think so in context of her affair. Also, to be clear, I'm open to do anything she wants in the bedroom--she need only whisper it and I'll make it so. It's not as though I'm being difficult.

She literally has to first admit there is resentment, then figure out it’s source, then remove it’s source by changing the narrative she has told herself for years.

100%, but she won't do that work.

Hey Dr.,

While I agree in principle with HO, and based on my experience with my WW pushing feelings deep down until they manifest through some unrelated issue, I would ask yourself how much more time can you go while your WW "learns" to be an adult and modify her behaviour (I love how you framed this previously, you can’t change as a person but you can change your behaviour)?

I bring this up because it came up with my WW recently. We were taking about the period of time between dday 1 and my ultimatum to get into and invest in IC. It was about 3 years. She asked me honestly if I regret not just leaving. I was honest with her, with the gift of hindsight, I would have separated. Those three years were just spinning out tires and not making any progress. The three years also did a number on me emotionally, mentally and physically.

Separation, IMHO, is a good thing. Doesn’t mean you have to divorce. Maybe this is the wake up call she needs, maybe this is her way of separating and in her twisted mind, can say to herself that she tried and her effort just wasn’t enough for you. I remember asking my WW what she has done to help us heal through that three year period. Looking back, it was all just hot air. Lots of statements and affirmations, but really, not a lot of action.

Maybe her time wiry IC will help her, but this is going to take a long time and she will make many mistakes through the process. It’s up to you to decide to invest the time in it or not. I for one wouldn’t do it again if I had a do over.

I could be wrong but I thought her emotional abuse pre-dated that and it was Dr's poor solution to the situation.

Yes, I wrote out the timeline, but essentially, she was passive aggressive about traditional sex and very opposed to exploring my kinks. That began as early as 2008~.

She would only not be hurtful when doing what she wanted to do, and back in that timeframe, she wanted me to use my fingers on her clit while she gave me a blowjob. And don't get me wrong, that's a lovely way to spend time, but it was repetitive over the course of many years.

I hope the MC/IC stuff helps, because — as you well know Doc — the infidelity broke the last of the connection the M had.

No connection, no trust, no way physical intimacy can be much fun for either one of you.

Your wife is likely assuming even if she jumps all in with great enthusiasm, every hour of every day there is a chance the relationship doesn’t make it. No WS "gets it" right away, even if they want to. Infidelity has zero empathy for the BS. Going from zero to 100 percent, fighting through shame to find some empathy isn’t easy — at least it wasn’t for my wife.

And your WS likely still trying to figure out how she spiraled so far from her own standards in the first place. Most WS who have any conscience after the A, they discover they betrayed their own best interest as well, regardless of the risks they took during that time in the fantasy bullshit bubble of infidelity.

It takes a while for people to get back up after they KNOW they hurt someone they care for.

The one step forward, three steps back is actually common for anyone trying to pick up the pieces after an A.

Rebuilding a connection is the hardest (and most important) part of R.

That means patience neither of you have for the other right now.

I think that’s where people are either suggesting new boundaries or a separation to give you the space to find some of that patience.

While it was very hurtful what your WS said after sex — I think it was an honest moment. Honesty is a huge part of rebuilding trust — even with things neither of you want to hear — she just has to be honest BEFORE intimacy, not after.

The connection only starts when both people find a pace to safely reach out for the other. It is a series of tiny increments that build off the other, and after betrayal, patience is understandably HARD to come by.

It sure doesn’t sound to me like either of you feel emotionally safe around the other right now.

Hey Dr.,

While I agree in principle with HO, and based on my experience with my WW pushing feelings deep down until they manifest through some unrelated issue, I would ask yourself how much more time can you go while your WW "learns" to be an adult and modify her behaviour (I love how you framed this previously, you can’t change as a person but you can change your behaviour)?

I bring this up because it came up with my WW recently. We were taking about the period of time between dday 1 and my ultimatum to get into and invest in IC. It was about 3 years. She asked me honestly if I regret not just leaving. I was honest with her, with the gift of hindsight, I would have separated. Those three years were just spinning out tires and not making any progress. The three years also did a number on me emotionally, mentally and physically.

Separation, IMHO, is a good thing. Doesn’t mean you have to divorce. Maybe this is the wake up call she needs, maybe this is her way of separating and in her twisted mind, can say to herself that she tried and her effort just wasn’t enough for you. I remember asking my WW what she has done to help us heal through that three year period. Looking back, it was all just hot air. Lots of statements and affirmations, but really, not a lot of action.

Maybe her time wiry IC will help her, but this is going to take a long time and she will make many mistakes through the process. It’s up to you to decide to invest the time in it or not. I for one wouldn’t do it again if I had a do over.

Thanks, Jameson.

I feel like I've been conscious of that issue. I do not want to spin my wheels if she cannot improve. I know there are wildly opposing opinions on this from various members, but what I'm seeing is very slow improvement from her. That in itself is neither good nor bad as far as I can tell. Meaning, things are happening, but it's not an indication that she'll ever reach a result that's satisfactory to me.

Regardless, I have no issue observing that change and maintaining the family unit--and if I determine she can't get where I need her to be, we can separate. The issue now is her emotional abuse is making the current situation untenable. We could potentially live together and not have sex at all, though I suspect a separation would be more effective than that at this point. But I'm also aware of the ramification her moving out is going to have (kids, family, friends), so it's not something I'm going into lightly.

I feel a bit cornered if I'm being honest. I set clear terms and she broke them. It's why I hate ultimatums and have always noted they're the tools of someone who fails to communicate. Looking back though, I'm not sure what else I could have done.

While it was very hurtful what your WS said after sex — I think it was an honest moment. Honesty is a huge part of rebuilding trust — even with things neither of you want to hear — she just has to be honest BEFORE intimacy, not after.

The connection only starts when both people find a pace to safely reach out for the other. It is a series of tiny increments that build off the other, and after betrayal, patience is understandably HARD to come by.

It sure doesn’t sound to me like either of you feel emotionally safe around the other right now.

Exactly this, OldWounds.

And I don't think what she did was all that bad, but it feels defiant to me because it's quite literally the very specific thing I prohibited. I'm not going to break up my marriage over a mediocre BJ that my WW didn't enjoy giving. It's absurd. But I can't move forward with her having zero respect for me either.