SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Am I the only person on SI who finds this bizarre?

Nope.

I agree with you. A WS doesn't put down a deposit on an apartment, unless they want to leave.

Who's to say those uncontrollable tears weren't for herself, and not because she just can't stop being mean?

How the hell is her looking for apartments and putting a down payment on one not a "game over"?!

Why is everyone writing paragraphs upon paragraphs overanalyzing the situation after something like that?!

Am I the only person on SI who finds this bizarre?

The only way any of makes sense to me is that if she’s ready to be done with the marriage but loses her nerve every time you back down after an altercation.

I think the same. I have not touched on the subject because I don't understand why it's even possible for Dr. to evict her so easily, so I've assumed I've skipped over some content.

The one "bad" episode is seemingly the one you choose to hold in your head and your heart. Do you understand why you choose to focus on the one bad encounter?

She's abusive.

Let's reframe this. If 10 days out of 11 he was good to her, but on the 11th day he beat her, then would you still think the same way? Should she not focus on the punches,and instead focus on the days he hugged her?

Also..he's the one asking her to lead with love. Because she can be mean and abusive. He's been leading with love throughout this entire situation. And she is taking full advantage of that,and manipulating him.

T/j..

Marie..I'm really interested in your story. I hope some day you will post it. I know your husband cheated,then years later,you had what you call a "discovery affair." I'm very curious to know what a discovery affair is.

End t/j

[This message edited by HellFire at 3:59 PM, Thursday, August 25th]

How sure are you that the reason for this action is what you think it is (pain she caused you)?

Devil's Advocate: She did all that because she is scared of your reaction, not that she is remorseful of her actions to you. By forfeiting the deposit for the apartment, shows that she has no consequences. If you had let her go ahead as planned, but not stay away for the whole lease term, that would have enforced in her mind that there actually are consequences.

I think the better question might be whether or not she views moving out as a consequence--I feel like *if* I'm wrong in my assessment, it's in that direction.

Again, this is all a logic exercise for me. My issue is that I don't feel she loves and respects me. Ok, so if that's true, logically, moving out would be great for her individually--she escapes me. That's not what I'm seeing, but there could be lots of reasons for that--namely the children and her codependency.

So my devil's advocate position is that she perhaps wants to end the marriage, but doesn't have what it takes to do it. That would be logical. And if that's the case, she'll move out eventually. And if I can be convinced that's the case, I'll ask her to leave.

But I'm going off the idea that the more logical explanation is she doesn't mean to keep fucking up. So what appears intentional to me, isn't. That she loves me as much as she can and she's trying as hard as she can, but isn't meeting my expectations.

I think she wants to be here and she wants the marriage to work.

We all know that you want R subconsciously, even though you argue that you are neutral. Why do I say this? Virtually every action that you have taken is not a neutral stance. There are always some reason or other for you to stay with your WW.

I want to achieve a loving, respectful partnership with my wife so that we can raise our children in a supportive, loving home. I don't have control over that. If I think it's possible, I'll move to R; if I don't think it's possible, I'll move to D. Right now, I just don't know. I don't think my position has changed on this, but that's certainly my position right now.

You want to break the bad mojo of your parents M. You do not want your kids to potentially go through what you went through. Reality is, you and your WW are not your parents. Your M is not your parents M.

You are currently forcing the outcome, hence the inability to 'let go'. You think you have a rational brain at the moment, but from your postings, your thinking is not as straight as you think it is.

Respectfully, if I just wanted to force the outcome, I'd stop analyzing everything she did, stop writing on this website, rug-sweep the entire affair, and blissfully return to my old relationship.

Doc. You keep mentioning that you don’t understand your WWs deep seated resentment towards you. That resentment prior to her A manifested itself in her mistreating you with regard to sex, and the badmouthing of you both prior to her A snd then in justification of same.

Many wives treat their husbands in the same manner. They feel that their husbands are not pulling their weight at home and/or with child rearing. They think their husbands are incompetent in this arena. It universally manifests itself in the wife either withholding sex or expressing exasperation and/or anger when she finally agrees to have sex.

So as Hellfire, HO, snd others have said, at its core your WWs mistreatment of you isn’t a sexual problem but a respect problem. We can say all day that it’s her issue to solve, but not exactly.

Many BHs here have noted that their WWs walked all over them post A until they threatened D. Why? Because they realized that their BH was standing up for himself, standing firm, being a badass. Thus, R moved forward because respect was demanded by the WH and respect was in kind proffered.

Your backsliding, over litigation and over thinking of everything, neediness and need for validation via sex, I think is partly at the core of this. This is all stuff pre A - it’s your personality. In your WWs mind, this very well may translate into my husband is incompetent, snd because he’s incompetent I can’t respect him.

People are telling you to stand up for yourself and stop being trampled upon by your WW. Your take on this is that I don’t want to be harsh because instead I want to feel loved.

Have you given thought to the possibility that these personality traits of yours are a turn off? And, this turn off manifests itself into not garnering respect from your WW? You’re obviously a highly competent person in action, but your personality tell’s the opposite story to your WW.

Perhaps you might gain some perspective by reading posts from BHs who went through this. Dkt3 has been trying to tell you this. He had to D his WW until she got it. Tanner had to move towards D until his WW finally got it.

I’m not saying you need to go this route. What I’m saying is that perhaps your neediness and lack of conviction is a turn off - your personality is a turn off. I hate the commonly used term man up as an antidote. However, I’m searching for a more apropos term right now.

I think your decision came down to knowing she doesn't love you. Of course, you felt this before she told you directly.

If you know this, you must see separation as extremely risky because she doesn't have a real reason to keep trying after the separation. So from this viewpoint, separation looks like the ending of the marriage. From this viewpoint, you must keep the game going so she has time to start loving you. Only after that, it's possible for you to feel safe while enforcing consequences like that.

Stich, I don't feel that way at all. I am not fearful of separation because my WW might realize she doesn't want to be married to me; if anything, I'm more fearful that I'll realize I don't want to be married to her. It's much easier to persevere my marriage if I want to do it than if I just feel like I need to do it.

That's another angle I'm looking to explore in IC more.

She made a choice: separation, and you didn't let her have her choice. You saved her from her choice. I think starting to treat her like an adult is a good idea.

Agreed entirely. She acts like a child and I often treat her like a child. And this is a prime example of it.

You love her, so let's be honest here: You've endured years of her behavior, so you can take years and years more. And if you don't change something, you will have to endure. Nothing changes if nothing changes.

Sure--that's the metric that matters now more than any other perhaps: my endurance.

I think it now hurts so much because before, you guessed, it had to be that way. You thought she was like that and would be for everyone. That she loves you so she would never hurt you consciously and with malice. Now you think she would, and she is doing it. You look at your past and see all her behavior differently.

Exactly that. I never attributed her behavior before as unloving malice and now that's all I see. I suspect that's likely my fault--just because I see it as malice, doesn't make it so.

Does your gut allow for the possibility that you might be in a codependent relationship?

Has the subject come up in MC or IC?

The cycle of control and enabling is in evidence in your threads. By controlling I mean trying to help change, advise and rescue. The sense that you can bring about change through your influence and help. You derive satisfaction from helping, supporting others. Others needs come before yours and those needs get minimized. Or like now, completely dismissed for the higher priority of keeping the family together.

I would add to that you desire to have as much information and data as you can to mull over, discuss and debate about your wives behavior. You shut the door on discussing yours.

You put yourself and your wife in situations where she can’t meet your expectations, fails then you help her see where she failed and can improve.

You can set up whatever rules and requirements you want in R. And you have. Hows it working for you?

You need to let go of the denial. The lack of progress is not just down to her abuse and failure. You can’t detach and work on yourselves when you are as enmeshed as you are.

Until you recognize your part in this unbalanced relationship, you will keep living in your groove. I in no way dismiss your wives behavior and abuse. Your inability to detach, establish boundaries and desire to control the outcome needs to be addressed.

Are you willing to dig into that or we can just go back to talking about your WW.

I don't intend to close the door rather than discuss my behavior.

I do think there's codependency. As best I can tell, I'm absorbing her mistakes and she's reliant on me for comfort/safety. We haven't discussed in MC yet, but we should for sure.

Picking up the burden for her is part of the dance of codependency described in "Codependent No More". Unfortunately, it doesn't lead to a lovely future where your WW will thank you for keeping everything together and acknowledge this sacrifice that you have made. It leads to a future outburst. Won't likely happen today or maybe even a few weeks from now. But once she feels the threat of separation has lifted and she's tired of playing the part of the good wife she has made for herself, she will do it again and think that it won't be so bad because all she has to do is weather your emotions for a bit. She may react to any threats or boundaries stated but she will know deep down that they won't come to fruition. She will remember that you need her more than she needs you.

I understand that this is a merry-go-round you have to ride a few more times before you're ready to get off. I know because I did it too.

I don't doubt your sincerity. I do question if that's what is happening. Again, I just don't think she desperately wants to keep the marriage together and is maliciously prodding me to see what she can get away with it.

I think the likely truth is she wants to keep the marriage together and is altogether inept at meeting my expectations.

Alternatively, I think she *could* want out of the marriage and is struggling with the host of issues that presents her.

What an odd thing to say. Coming from someone who,just a few days ago,said he truly appreciated my posts because they are so in line with his thoughts. This sounds like something your WW would say.

Hellfire, I do appreciate your posts, but I admittedly did not appreciate that specific posts. Your implication was pure arrogance--you know what I'm going to do and why I'm going to do it more than I do. Perhaps writing that made you happy, but it certainly wasn't constructive or empathetic.

Aside from the obnoxious post in the beginning, I believe I've been extremely supportive of you,and your situation. I've never once thought of this, or anyone else's situation here,as something for entertainment. That's insulting.

I agree my response was flippant, but I think it was in-kind.

Tell me how what I said wasn't true? You drew a very clear boundary. She crossed it. You were encouraged FOR VERY GOOD REASONS, not to back down,and give her real consequences. You backed down. Anyone who has been advising you since you got here was most likely sure you were going to erase the line,and draw a new one. You've done it before. You tell us how she feels,and she gets it now. Then it happens again,she cries, is "destroyed," you make excuses for her. As tushnurse said..lather,rinse,repeat.

I don't see me reversing my decision as inevitable, but I understand why you do.

Regardless, that was an odd thing to say to someone who has only tried to help you. And, BTW, tried to help your wife. I'm probably the only one who encouraged her to post here, because,at the time, she really seemed to want to help everyone heal,but seemed lost on how to go about it. I really thought the former waywards here could help her. She turned her back on that. Which is a shame.

Your taking my comment as a personal attack on you, your character and your collective of contributions. I can't change that, only tell you that was not the intention. I don't think my response to you was unfair though.

I've been here for awhile. I'm blunt. I don't sugar-coated. I try to help. Sometimes I trigger and say things that could be worded better.

We're similar; that's why I like your posts.

Your implication was pure arrogance--you know what I'm going to do and why I'm going to do it more than I do.

I don't see me reversing my decision as inevitable, but I understand why you do.

Hmm. Ok. You understand why I saw it as inevitable..yet it was arrogant of me to have believed it would happen.

Ok.

I believed it would happen..and so did several others, because we have read your posts. Going off of what you've posted in the last 100 pages,it wasn't a stretch to believe you wouldn't enforce that boundary.

Hashing this out isn't helping,so I will drop it.

It's been asked what you will do when she,inevitably, is cruel to you again. You have said she can't help herself, so you know it's going to happen. What then? If you've answered already,my apologies.

10/11 positive sex encounters = really good odds. The one "bad" episode is seemingly the one you choose to hold in your head and your heart. Do you understand why you choose to focus on the one bad encounter? Are you expecting perfection from an imperfect human (yourself or others)?

For me it's not about a bad sex encounter; it's the idea that her mask slips and shows how little she loves and respects me to delibertly hurt me in an arena with a lot of trauma from the relationship. I'm sensitive and vulnerable in that regard and at this point she can't claim ignorance. It just seems hurtful to me.

Let's say I got angry with my WW in an argument and called her a slut (I don't name call, this is just a hypothetical). And she cried and then explained this horrible experience she had with that word and she asked me to never call her that again no matter what. Then a a few weeks later I did it again...and again. At some point I have to own the fact that in the moment, I'm calling her a slut because I *want* to hurt her. But why would I want to hurt her if I loved and respected her?

You say you recognize that what you are doing isn't currently working (and that MC made some suggestions). I think I heard you say that you wanted to start leading with love. What does that look like to you? How will you practice that with your wife and your family? Will your wife get a vote on the changes? I would think that "leading with love" would take into account the wants and needs of wife and family.

I very much want this to be a partnership and we agree together on what is best. That requires her to be authentic and honest with me; something she struggles with.

Leading with love to me means demonstrating to her how I expect to be treated. I will show her love and respect when she doesn't deserve it even--and I think the last five months is a good example of that.

What about your strong reactions to things that don't go your way? Your need to cancel the pool party, or the upcoming vacation based on that one bad interaction (and discounting the 10 positive interactions)? Are you able to see that you're taking away positive bonding experiences for you and your family. Are you able to see that this is not helpful to you (as it keeps you locked in the past, and from experiencing your life as it is presently unfolding)?

I've thought about that, more so with the vacation. We could be boarding a plane in a couple of hours had I not cancelled. It makes me feel silly if I'm being honest. In all likelihood, we're going to use this week to reset and re-bond, so we could have done it on a lovely vacation that we were both looking forward to. So why did I cancel?

I think I struggle resetting. To go from my wife almost moving out to us going on a romantic vacation just seems strange, objectively. I'm not angry about the BJ anymore, but I feel like I should be perhaps. I wonder if my time on this site feeds into that as well. I'm not sure.

Cancel culture is the current thing (get that shit out of your life!). I get that. Hate and revenge are rampant in the world right now. Hurt people hurt people. Why are we all hurting each other? How does that help? That certainly is not leading with love.

The goal, IMHO, should be to stop the suffering (of others and of ourselves). There is no reason to increase the suffering and pain. Seriously, breathe that bad juju out of your body, mind, and heart. Love, Marie

You're right and I appreciate that.

How the hell is her looking for apartments and putting a down payment on one not a "game over"?!

Why is everyone writing paragraphs upon paragraphs overanalyzing the situation after something like that?!

Am I the only person on SI who finds this bizarre?

Edit;add The only way any of makes sense to me is that if she’s ready to be done with the marriage but loses her nerve every time you back down after an altercation.

The other option is that she’s a psychopath who enjoys toying with you, and wants to see how far she can push you before you go over the edge. But I’m going to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she’s not a soap opera villain.

I asked her to move out. She looked for an apartment, found one, and placed a down-payment--with plans to sign a lease tomorrow and move on Tuesday. I then told her I'd like her to stay and she should, unless she wants the space regardless. She told me she wanted to stay.

I'm the one who flip-flopped, not her.

Nope.

I agree with you. A WS doesn't put down a deposit on an apartment, unless they want to leave.

Who's to say those uncontrollable tears weren't for herself, and not because she just can't stop being mean?

I think that's possible. Though I'm not sure what the alternative is. I told her to move out. So she spent the day figuring out where to move--what else was she supposed to do? No one else was going to do it for her.

It happened fairly quick, but that's because we had already established this consequence.

I think the same. I have not touched on the subject because I don't understand why it's even possible for Dr. to evict her so easily, so I've assumed I've skipped over some content.

I didn't evict her. We discussed months ago that if we temporarily separate, she would move out. We both agreed that was fair. Then over the last few weeks, we discussed that if she was malicious in the bedroom again, she would move out. Then two days ago, she was malicious again, which she recognized. I told her to leave and she made plans to do so.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 6:07 PM, Thursday, August 25th]

How is arrogant to follow your hundreds of posts, see a pattern, and point it out?

Why do you get angry and/or defensive every time someone makes an observation or a comment on her behavior that is based on information that you have given us?

What is it you need here? Do you want advice, strategies, and alternate perspectives? Or do you want to journal, engage in logical exercises (as you called them), and vent?

Either is fine; it would just be helpful to figure out what you need so we’re not wasting our time and yours.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 6:08 PM, Thursday, August 25th]

She also noted that losing conflicts with me makes her angry. She recognizes it's not my fault and admits I'm more thoughtful and prepared in our conflicts. But the result is that she always feels like she's losing with me, even if the loss is justified. To me, her solution *should* be to stop thoughtless commentary and stop engaging in poorly formed arguments, but she can't see it--she's entitled to winning conflict without any preparation or foresight.

Most of that points to someone who is feeling powerless — which again —- her current Hell is of her own making. No one wants to be the villain in their own story. In that spiral, holding on to those justifications is the only thread she has back to the time BEFORE she decided to step outside her marriage. At least counseling has a place to start from. Because "winning" isn’t something that happens in a marriage, especially after infidelity. No one wins a damn thing.

Until she lets go of the idea of control, winning conflicts and mitigating her bullshit choices to cheat, you’ll be back here to report more transgressions to the boundaries you set.

She has to weigh this last opportunity to save her family against the holding on to the feelings/resentments (legit or imagined).

My wife absolutely had legitimate gripes leading into her rationalizations to choose to cheat. There are always things I can do to improve.

But she had to put those real complaints against me on the shelf after dday.

She had to ditch her resentments, and she did. Eventually, so did I.

When I got to my last chance moment, when I told her at the 18-month mark — love was not going to be enough to save us. I was done talking. I was all done playing detective. I was done trying to help her solve her own issues. I was pretty much done. And she knew it.

I had one last line.

SHOW me, don’t tell me.

Words lose meaning after betrayal. Actions. I needed her to show me she could let go of her inane defenses and rationalizations. She had to show love instead of tell me how someday she would be a better, stronger person. She had to SHOW me safe.

I know I sing my wife’s praises NOW, but man, it was like pulling teeth until year THREE.

People guess all kinds of reasons why people stay and mine was simple enough. Would I be able to look myself in the mirror and say, "I did all I could to keep this thing together?"

I did. My wife finally appreciated and continues to be grateful for the opportunity.

I have no earthly idea if your wife will figure out her issues and follow your lead with love (powerful stuff right there).

I hope she does, but I don’t think you’re codependent.

Codependent is a full on clinical diagnoses for people who enable someone to hurt them.

Ain’t no psychologists here, but it gets diagnosed on a daily basis here at SI.

I’m not a professional either, yet I asked of real world psychologists about it when SI gave me the same diagnoses during my first year here.

We’re social mammals. We can certainly have degrees of dependency on a sliding scale, but I do not see you ENABLING your wife to hurt you.

It doesn’t sound like (and my perspective is limited to the knowledge you’ve chosen to share) you’re inviting her to keep you in pain. You’re giving her some room to to understand why she’s holding to on tight to her need to win. If she wants to win something, maybe winning back some of your trust is a bigger deal than her needing to win an argument.

My M doesn’t have wins or loses anymore, been there done that. I sure know the game though. I was great at it. Now we give instead of take — at every level of the relationship. From chores to playtime. Best thing we ever got from MC was that compromise is a dirty word (someone always loses a compromise).

Doc. You keep mentioning that you don’t understand your WWs deep seated resentment towards you. That resentment prior to her A manifested itself in her mistreating you with regard to sex, and the badmouthing of you both prior to her A snd then in justification of same.

Many wives treat their husbands in the same manner. They feel that their husbands are not pulling their weight at home and/or with child rearing. They think their husbands are incompetent in this arena. It universally manifests itself in the wife either withholding sex or expressing exasperation and/or anger when she finally agrees to have sex.

So as Hellfire, HO, snd others have said, at its core your WWs mistreatment of you isn’t a sexual problem but a respect problem. We can say all day that it’s her issue to solve, but not exactly.

Many BHs here have noted that their WWs walked all over them post A until they threatened D. Why? Because they realized that their BH was standing up for himself, standing firm, being a badass. Thus, R moved forward because respect was demanded by the WH and respect was in kind proffered.

Your backsliding, over litigation and over thinking of everything, neediness and need for validation via sex, I think is partly at the core of this. This is all stuff pre A - it’s your personality. In your WWs mind, this very well may translate into my husband is incompetent, snd because he’s incompetent I can’t respect him.

People are telling you to stand up for yourself and stop being trampled upon by your WW. Your take on this is that I don’t want to be harsh because instead I want to feel loved.

Have you given thought to the possibility that these personality traits of yours are a turn off? And, this turn off manifests itself into not garnering respect from your WW? You’re obviously a highly competent person in action, but your personality tell’s the opposite story to your WW.

Perhaps you might gain some perspective by reading posts from BHs who went through this. Dkt3 has been trying to tell you this. He had to D his WW until she got it. Tanner had to move towards D until his WW finally got it.

I’m not saying you need to go this route. What I’m saying is that perhaps your neediness and lack of conviction is a turn off - your personality is a turn off. I hate the commonly used term man up as an antidote. However, I’m searching for a more apropos term right now.

Dude, I think this hits the nail on the head and is exactly what is going on.

My WW fell in love with me when I treated her far worse. Over the years, I've treated her as the mother of my children rather than the girl I want to fuck while drunk at 2 a.m. Her lack of respect for herself has led to that being a major problem for her, at a core level. I don't think she thinks she deserves to be treated well, nor do I think she's attracted to a man who treats her well.

I believe very strongly that all of that is true.

She even admitted that partially as one of her reasons for the affair--I was too passive and loving at times, especially in bed (which is triggering for me because she caused that)--i.e. she just wanted to be fucked by a jerk. I used to be that jerk for her.

Now, I'm happy to play the part in bed or do anything she'd like really, but I've found it's a fine line to walk--we quickly land in the Madonna complex: "Why is my husband treating me like this now; does he not respect me?"

Ultimately, it's a bit overwhelming for me. I am exhausted trying to guess what she is thinking and execute the behavior she wants. I'm going to be myself. If I don't do it for her anymore, my conscience will be clear.

I've noticed that,in very recent posts,you've said that she has told you that her resentment for you was a reason for the affair..and now your passivity was another reason.

This is a huge problem. She is still blaming you for her affair.

Still blameshifting. Still being mean. What is she working on in IC,if at 6 months out she still blames you for her affair?

For me it's not about a bad sex encounter; it's the idea that her mask slips and shows how little she loves and respects me to delibertly hurt me in an arena with a lot of trauma from the relationship. I'm sensitive and vulnerable in that regard and at this point she can't claim ignorance. It just seems hurtful to me.

Let's say I got angry with my WW in an argument and called her a slut (I don't name call, this is just a hypothetical). And she cried and then explained this horrible experience she had with that word and she asked me to never call her that again no matter what. Then a a few weeks later I did it again...and again. At some point I have to own the fact that in the moment, I'm calling her a slut because I *want* to hurt her. But why would I want to hurt her if I loved and respected her?

I understand that this was not about a bad sexual encounter (even a bad bj is good, right?). I understand that you felt hurt, by her, based on the words she chose to use during that moment. I also understand that you want her to be able to stop herself from sharing her thoughts in that moment. Which to me, means she needs to work on her impulse-control.

I also think I understood you to say that you would be okay in discussing why she was angry, if she was able to put it aside and approach it at a later date or time.

I also think I hear you saying that while her acts can be abusive, that you do not believe her to be an abusive person at heart. In other words, you have confidence in her ability to change her actions with proper work and time.

Lastly, I think I hear you saying that you want to give the family more time. I am sincerely trying, when giving advice, to keep what you want to accomplish as my "driving force." Please correct me if I've misunderstood what you want and desire!

I am a very firm believer that we can judge for ourselves when we know we have reached our limit. I believe in your confidence in yourself, and your ability to handle your own situation.

As to your slut example above-- avoiding a specific word (slut) is objective (easy to determine if goal is met), whereas determing feelings behind words can be very subjective. But I understand what you were trying to convey-- she needs to be more careful with her words, and when she chooses to say her words. I encourage you to keep mentoring her to be mindful of her own goals for herself. Perhaps she will view herself as "winning" if she can focus on meeting her own personal goals. Whether we realize it or not, most battles are truly within.

As to you being influenced by this forum (or any platform), I would challenge you to spend two-fold the amount of time that you are spending here, on a positive, loving activity of your choosing! If you are spending 3 hours here, spend 6 hours on something else that brings you joy! (That might seem like a lot to ask, but I was seriously contemplating advocating 3x the amount of time towards loving and joyful activity)

Speaking of joy, my fantasy draft is this weekend. Our team decided to do Superflex this year. I can't remember if you said you did a superflex? I'm thinking of drafting 2 quality QBs within first 4 rounds. With the two other slots falling to tier 1 or tier 2 WR/RB. Natually, this all depends on luck of the draw (we draw numbers to determine who picks first), and then "snake" back and fourth with picks. I'm super psyched for the new season. Do you feel good about your draft picks?

One other thing in regards to sports (damn, I'm chatty today!)-- I'm super competitive, and there is a quote (I think it's from Tommy Rivs) that goes something like this: The mind will give up 1000x before the body ever will. I use this mantra when I'm out on a run and my brain tries to tell me that my legs are done (riduculous!). Anyway, I like to think that the quote also pertains to the heart. Meaning, the mind will give up 1000x before the heart ever will. Know your limits (very important! no one needs to die in the canyon alone), but have faith in your legs!

It's been asked what you will do when she, inevitably, is cruel to you again. You have said she can't help herself, so you know it's going to happen. What then?

I've been giving that some thought. I think I need to be looking for progress, not a solution.

So in the example from three weeks ago, she was very cruel during sex because she was mad about her parents. I called her out and she viscously argued with me for 10 minutes before sleeping on the couch. She finally figured it out the next morning and began her apology routine.

The other day, she flashed anger for about 2-3 seconds before apologizing. She didn't protest or continue any cruelty. She apologized for making me feel badly immediately.

Now, I don't forgive her for hurting me--and we've identified all the problems revolving around why that she needs to work on (boundaries and resentments)--but for now, I think I over-reacted a bit to her response. I didn't have to turn it into the big deal that I did--I could have accepted her apology, told her I was hurt, and went forward. I'm too binary though--I fell into the path of: She did this and therefore this must happen. I'm figuring it out as I go and I don't think her behavior should have led to her leaving the house.

Ok, so what happens if it happens again. I suppose it depends on what happens. Will she flash anger with me again in the bedroom? Regrettably, I assume the answer is yes. Will she double down on her anger and viscously attack me again like she did a few weeks ago? I hope not. Is that the red line? Perhaps it is. I think right now I'm close enough to a breaking point that it would do me in.

We did discuss what we can do to mitigate it and the plan for the next week at least is for her to initiate sex. That's what the MC suggested and that's the idea my WW preferred. I agreed; and have already turned her down (all the responses to this thread are keeping me way behind on work).

Most of that points to someone who is feeling powerless — which again —- her current Hell is of her own making. No one wants to be the villain in their own story. In that spiral, holding on to those justifications is the only thread she has back to the time BEFORE she decided to step outside her marriage. At least counseling has a place to start from. Because "winning" isn’t something that happens in a marriage, especially after infidelity. No one wins a damn thing.

Until she lets go of the idea of control, winning conflicts and mitigating her bullshit choices to cheat, you’ll be back here to report more transgressions to the boundaries you set.

She has to weigh this last opportunity to save her family against the holding on to the feelings/resentments (legit or imagined).

My wife absolutely had legitimate gripes leading into her rationalizations to choose to cheat. There are always things I can do to improve.

But she had to put those real complaints against me on the shelf after dday.

She had to ditch her resentments, and she did. Eventually, so did I.

When I got to my last chance moment, when I told her at the 18-month mark — love was not going to be enough to save us. I was done talking. I was all done playing detective. I was done trying to help her solve her own issues. I was pretty much done. And she knew it.

I had one last line.

SHOW me, don’t tell me.

Words lose meaning after betrayal. Actions. I needed her to show me she could let go of her inane defenses and rationalizations. She had to show love instead of tell me how someday she would be a better, stronger person. She had to SHOW me safe.

I know I sing my wife’s praises NOW, but man, it was like pulling teeth until year THREE.

People guess all kinds of reasons why people stay and mine was simple enough. Would I be able to look myself in the mirror and say, "I did all I could to keep this thing together?"

I did. My wife finally appreciated and continues to be grateful for the opportunity.

I have no earthly idea if your wife will figure out her issues and follow your lead with love (powerful stuff right there).

I hope she does, but I don’t think you’re codependent.

Codependent is a full on clinical diagnoses for people who enable someone to hurt them.

Ain’t no psychologists here, but it gets diagnosed on a daily basis here at SI.

I’m not a professional either, yet I asked of real world psychologists about it when SI gave me the same diagnoses during my first year here.

We’re social mammals. We can certainly have degrees of dependency on a sliding scale, but I do not see you ENABLING your wife to hurt you.

It doesn’t sound like (and my perspective is limited to the knowledge you’ve chosen to share) you’re inviting her to keep you in pain. You’re giving her some room to to understand why she’s holding to on tight to her need to win. If she wants to win something, maybe winning back some of your trust is a bigger deal than her needing to win an argument.

My M doesn’t have wins or loses anymore, been there done that. I sure know the game though. I was great at it. Now we give instead of take — at every level of the relationship. From chores to playtime. Best thing we ever got from MC was that compromise is a dirty word (someone always loses a compromise).

OldWounds, I've really appreciated your recent posts. Thank you. It's a lot to think about--some inspirational stuff.

I've noticed that,in very recent posts,you've said that she has told you that her resentment for you was a reason for the affair..and now your passivity was another reason.

This is a huge problem. She is still blaming you for her affair.

Still blameshifting. Still being mean. What is she working on in IC,if at 6 months out she still blames you for her affair?

This is from her exploring the justifications she used at the time of the affair. She knows they're all bullshit, but we have discussed in MC and out her feelings at the time. She's working in IC to figure out how to avoid going down those paths in the future and take responsibility.