SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

By all definitions, I was a BS that stayed entirely too long in a wreckonciliation - almost 13 years from discovery to divorce. I’ve read SO many responses throughout the years that basically said "just leave already!" Perhaps that’s why this thread drives me nuts. I know this territory intimately. I know what helped me, what hurt me…and I really know the territory of trying to make and enforce boundaries - particularly before I was emotionally in a place to back them up. For me personally, I experienced a LOT of internal conflict between where I was emotionally and where I felt like I SHOULD be. The one thing I can see with resounding conviction from the whole experience is that it’s a process - you get there (wherever "there" is) when you are ready.

My first marriage was physically abusive - like, extremely. My second marriage was emotionally abusive - like, extremely. I’ve been manipulated by a master - and as a result, I’m fairly skilled now at recognizing even nuances of manipulation. Someone pointed out earlier in your thread that manipulation frequently occurs in virtually all of our relationships. I think that to be true. So given that, I do think your point about intent is relevant; since I so readily recognize manipulation now I’ve had to work toward also placing value on intent to find balance in all my relationships. It’s one reason that blanket assumptions drive me crazy.

Without picking on any poster, I do find the broad classification of abuse somewhat presumptive. I also find it to be highly emotional charged - because if we tolerate abuse then somehow we seem to become complicit in it; it becomes partially our fault. And that’s just a responsibility I’m not willing to assume. Explore why I was tolerant or even unaware? Yes. But I didn’t cause it no matter how many times I endured it.

Physical abuse is very different than emotional abuse in that it’s much more measurable. The contradiction is also much more obvious when it comes to the abusive relationship vs other relationships in the abuser’s sphere. But there’s another component that’s even more significant - emotional abuse is largely effective/detrimental only to the degree to which I’m invested. As I use to tell my students, just because someone calls you a chicken doesn’t mean you’re going to start clucking and laying eggs. It’s only affects you to the degree that you value what the other person says/does. Not the same with a black eye or busted lip. I’m not minimizing one type of abuse over the other. Many have said they’d rather be hit than endure some of the emotional abuse they did; personally, I agree with them. The emotional abuse was horrific - but that changed for me when I began to see that his behavior had really nothing to do with me outside of the fact that I was just the most emotionally connected to him. Both in that he was more apt to be triggered (feel vulnerable) and need to resort to his learned coping skills in this relationship - as well as I was going to be more hurt by it because of my own emotional connection. We acted as both "cause and effect" in our own little dysfunctional dance.

Did I really say that it took almost 13 years to figure that out? Yes - and no. laugh duh Because the only thing that matters to me now is what I did and accomplished within my own growth during those 13 years. (Obviously, I had a lot of shit to unpack…and I found his behavior to be an excellent catalyst and road map toward my own growth.) By the time he actually physically left, I was both ready and somewhat indifferent (other than now having to figure out all those nasty little post divorce logistics). Stay, go…you do you, Boo. (Can you see why HE left? I had changed and was no longer a fit for his dysfunction. I wasn’t checked out…I was simply matching his level of intimacy.)

This is why detachment is so very important. You haven’t been equally invested - and an affair has a way of bringing that into the spotlight. In the early stages - and what I do wish I could have done sooner to protect myself (but the process is the process) - I was trying to bring him up to my level of emotional investment when we both probably would have been better served if I could have just divested to his level. I even think I intuitively knew this because I struggled a long time with the idea of having a RA. But because I couldn’t let go of the outcome, because I was afraid if I truly emotionally pulled back there would be no one bailing the water, I doubled down and tried harder - and that looked and felt like a clusterfuck. Hopeful, all in, some days - other days kicking him out and looking up attorneys. (Imho, THIS is the rollercoaster.). I was a fucking mess. And ironically, me being a mess was a great diversion from him being a mess.

Regardless of the outcome of your marriage, this thing has happened to you and it will require its own course of healing. What AND the degree to which you heal is what your intent and focus will direct. There was nothing - not even a remorseful spouse and a stronger marriage - that could make this experience truly beneficial to me unless I became a stronger and more self-aware person as a result. My world had been shattered…and it was no longer a safe place for me in any way if another person’s thoughts or choices had that capability; in that, I would forever be hanging by someone else’s thread. That is what I set out to change. I ended up with a much stronger and more secure relationship with myself - and now my external relationships reflect that. The improvement in the external relationships happens organically, as a by-product not the goal itself.
In my case, yes…my marriage ended - but I also view that as having "passed the test" (genuinely learned what it was to teach me and it’s purpose had been served). I lost the marriage but I gained a deep relationship with myself. I’d make that trade any day, every day. No regrets or wasted time here.

This is the point I have been trying to make to you since my first post. And I do think you are coming to it. I’m just trying to encourage you to keep your eyes on the REAL prize. smile.

Truth, thank you for the post. You're always informative and thought-provoking.

You note that regardless of my WW's remorse level, my path should still be focused on myself. And on one hand, that makes sense because I can control it, but on the other, it still feels to me like a remorseful WW is the key indicator I'm looking for regardless of what else happens. I haven't shifted from that view.

**

I just had an interesting incident with my WW. We had a two great days--she's been compassionate and sweet--very kind and going out of her way to show her love for me.

This afternoon, I had a question for her about the affair (it's been a long time since we have discussed it)--I was trying to gain a better understanding on what she felt she was gaining from the affair. I think with more space from the affair, she's framed it more and more as lust--she was having fun sex, which she needed, but couldn't get from me because of all the resentments she had built up for me.

My WW started to get visibly angry during the brief talk (it was probably about 15-20 minutes). I noticed it and moved to end the conversation, noting she had answered my question and there was no need to keep circling on the topic.

She got more angry, blurting out that she thinks at some point a "boundary" needs to be setup where I stop asking questions about the affair. I saw the same flawed, remorseless person doing mental gymnastics trying to figure out how to deliver the proposal without sounding like an unempathetic jerk. I quietly listened.

Ultimately, she framed it that asking the questions was bad for me and a boundary would protect me from being hurt or having a sadness spiral. I noted to her that I wasn't sad or down at all--I felt fine--but pointed out how angry she was.

I explained to her that the same flawed mechanism from the BJ incident and every other incident was present. She's only looking inward--she's focused on how bad she feels discussing the affair and not focused on showing me love and compassion; trying to comfort me. It took her a few minutes, but she recognized I was right. She simply can't break her in-grained line of thinking. She thinks first of herself, never me. It didn't occur to her that the conversation may have been comforting to me and that her discomfort was a cost of her actions--she felt she's paid that cost and I need to get over it (though she'd never verbalize that).

As best I can tell, the incident is a clear example of her lack of remorse. I know it and she knows it. But she doesn't know how to avoid the pitfall and keeps falling into it.

For me, that's the key aspect of our relationship right now: her lack of remorse and empathy. Without it, I can't commit to R. And neither of us have a clue on what she is supposed to do to change.

So whatever scared victim you'd like to paint rings hollow to me.

[Emphasis mine]

I hesitate to even respond - and especially before you’ve had time to address all the subsequent posts. But at the same time, this whole thread often feels like herding cats. We never get into any of the deeper stuff because of all the surface level minutia.

Is this all you got out of that whole response? If so, I would subsequently ask, which of my emphasized words stands out more to you? Because in a large sense I think this is where your threads seem to turn into the mulberry bush.

To a large degree I get the impression that your wife’s authenticity is what you most want. It’s why the sex itself doesn’t seem to be the issue; it’s how she feels about the sex. But you also want her authenticity to align with what YOU want to experience/feel. I get that…and I think that’s critical to the long term compatibility of the marriage. But there was absolutely zero regard to the fact that your wife was indeed authentic with you about how she felt about the BJ simply because her timing sucked. I get that too…how one demonstrates/shares authenticity is also important. I’m not minimizing the impact that had on you or the fact that she could have been authentic sooner and with more kindness. This is her process.

The point of that post was to show you how your wife may be experiencing this. (I don’t know what is really true…but the alternative to that is that she’s a manipulative and cruel sociopath). It doesn’t mean she is just a scared victim nor does it mean that her failures get a pass. It’s just a perspective that allows you to de-personalize her response, not feel like you have to pull out an elephant gun in response, AND an opportunity to examine your own behavior and how it may be contributing negatively to a dynamic that YOU would like to see change. It’s actually pointing to the very place where you actually have some power…but that seems to always get left on the cutting room floor.

I am not a scared victim. I’m also quite sure of what I think and how I feel. I’ve got zero reasons to people please with you - nothing hangs in the balance. . Additionally, I am often regarded as an excellent debater - and while it may seem arrogant to admit, I do see myself that way. All that to say, I feel "defeated" in many of our exchanges. Not because I feel "bested"…but because I feel it futile - like the points I make never really get digested, just dismissed. That’s not on you…I’m just not invested enough to continue. All that to say, I can only imagine how your wife might be experiencing this - and especially based on how you’ve described her.

If you want to stay involved with the hopes that your wife will be able to implement change, you’re gonna have to decide what change is most critical and needs to come first. If it’s her authenticity then you’re gonna have to prioritize that over how you feel when she IS authentic. Part of the way to do that is to gain perspective on how your wife may be experiencing everything. The way to withstand how that affects you emotionally is to focus on that aspect (how it makes you feel) as being YOUR work.

Otherwise, it seems our responses are just going to continue to focus on and argue whether you just leave or stay.

ETA: It probably would have been best had I waited to allow you time to respond to the remaining posts. I do see you making progress so I really don’t want that to be lost in translation. I know sometimes it has to feel to you like you keep getting hit over the head with the same stick and that would make me feel like I’m just not getting. I CLEARLY SEE YOUR PROGRESS.

[This message edited by truthsetmefree at 9:42 PM, Saturday, August 27th]

So..those who do see it as intentional, and do see a gender bias..arent staying within the lines set forth by those who don't see it,so we shouldn't point it out.

Hellfire, it's my thread. Point out whatever you'd like. No ideas are censored.

I'm not sure I have a take on the gender discussion though--it doesn't seem very relevant. My gender is almost certainly warping some advice, but that's expected. More importantly, as many have pointed out, you're only hearing my side of the story, so that's a far larger bias than gender anyway. There's no objective truth to any of the background on my story that you have, though I will note that I do my best to share events as objectively as I can.

Your threads are a master class in Codependency. Your WW is addicted to selfish ego kibbles and you are addicted to her.

Detach

180

Focus on you

Stop having sex with her

In house separation

Full separation

Divorce

Whatever you want to call it or however you want to do it.

Anyone helping you focus, analyze, understand, and ruminate on your WW--who should be doing that entirely for herself since she is a fully grown adult--is enabling your addiction to her and your avoidance of your own issues.

This gets better when you learn to take care of yourself and STOP taking care of her. She is a person, not your project. Get. Out. Of. The. Way.

It's a question of if she can become remorseful or if that will require separation (if it's at all possible). There are massive ramifications to her moving out and we got very close to it this week. I'd say the odds are fair that's where things end up.

[Hey Doc. Been a while again. You’re getting lots of good and varied advice.

I’ll keep it simple as It’s late.

I won’t comment on the abuse, as it’s been discussed deeply, but I do want to mention again what it means to me that it occurs. The most disturbing part of it to me is that it still means that she is completely inward focused. It’s still all about her and her own feelings and how this all affects her.

I struggle mightily to find indications that empathy and remorse exist at all. Just when I think they might show up, she has another outburst that she care about herself above all.

That’s truly disturbing after 6 months. With due respect to HO, with whom I agree it’s still early in the aftermath for her to be getting it all right, but I’ve not seen a WS be successful with such blatant disregard of what her BS feels and is going through.

That’s what I would try to get her to focus on if I were an advisor of hers.

In the most recent event, what she should have been focusing on is how she was making the person she supposedly cares about feel good. That is supposed to be important to her. It should be important to any spouse whether they have been unfaithful or not.

Sure she has the right to say no. But she chose not to. She could have said no any point along the way. She chose not to. And yes it’s awful that she actually said something to make you feel bad about the experience.

But what’s even worse, she couldn’t bring herself to feel anything toward how she was making you feel. She just didn’t seem to care at all. And I find that is what has been lacking all through this process. Caring about what you feel.

It doesn’t come near at all to caring about what she feels about herself. And to me, that’s something she needs to be focusing on in IC. Or, she should just be honest with you and tell you she can’t bring herself to care about your pleasure or your pain. And let you off the hook from trying so hard. Let you move on.

I do things all the time for my wife, sexual and not, that are more enjoyable for her than me and it makes me happy that I can make her feel good that way. And she returns the favor to me. I just don’t feel that from what you convey about your wife.

I feel she’s going thru the motions, and not very well at that. I really wish she would find her empathy and remorse and hold on to it consistently. It’s still my opinion that a WS needs to find a way to really care about their BS as much as they have and do care about themselves. Perhaps even more.

Just my opinion. Take it for what you think it’s worth./quote]

Steven, that's precisely where I am now--I wrote about exactly this in describing this afternoon's conversation with my WW above. She just isn't remorseful. Period. So there's nothing to work with in terms or possible R. She needs to focus on that in IC, so we agree. Hilariously, I spoke with her this morning about exactly that because she has IC on Tuesday--yet this afternoon's conversation happened anyway. She just can't change how she thinks.

Thank you for inviting me back to the thread. I drew a boundary, in a moment of emotion,and now that my head has cleared, I'm changing the boundary. (See what I did there? )

And neither of us have a clue on what she is supposed to do to change.

This is HER work. Not yours. You aren't supposed to tell her what that work is.

However..let's be very honest,and stop making excuses. She doesn't know how to reach remorse? Seriously? If she spent more time reading the wayward forum,and not your thread, she would have a clue as to how to work towards remorse. Even better..she starts her own thread,and asks for specific help from people who have been in her shoes, on how to work towards remorse, and she would have former waywards rushing to help her. She got amazing support on her last thread. Yes, that would mean she will hear things that are hard. Excuse me while I roll my eyes. You are dealing with a shit ton of hard things to deal with,thanks to her. Healing is hard. The ws here will not sugar-coat it. She needs to understand that one of the first steps towards remorse is not being coddled,and hearing things that may upset her. But she would get the help she needs. So let's not pretend she doesn't have any way to find that help. IT'S RIGHT HERE.

If she chooses to continue to wring her hands,and play little girl lost,who just doesn't know what to do to find remorse, or heal the damage she's caused...when you know she has this valuable resource RIGHT HERE, and she chooses not to take advantage of it, then its not that she doesn't know how..she would rather you twist in the wind,than be uncomfortable.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:58 PM, Saturday, August 27th]

Steven, that's precisely where I am now--I wrote about exactly this in describing this afternoon's conversation with my WW above. She just isn't remorseful. Period. So there's nothing to work with in terms or possible R. She needs to focus on that in IC, so we agree. Hilariously, I spoke with her this morning about exactly that because she has IC on Tuesday--yet this afternoon's conversation happened anyway. She just can't change how she thinks.

Yes. I was reading your post an thought "this is what I just wrote about!!"

I think it comes down to just that when faced with awful infidelity…. Can the WS find empathy. Can they stop being so Inward focused and take months, even a few years and focus on their partner and the pain they caused them. Can they let their partner know that they are a safe person for them to heal with.

Your wife, in my opinion, has really shown none of these traits unfortunately.

She cares solely about how each interaction, no matter what it entails, emotionally or physically or other, affects her. And then she reacts to that based on how it made her, not you, feel.

That is something for her to work on herself, in IC.

The only difference between you and me is, at this point I’d be saying "call me when you’ve figured it out, it’s time for me to heal on my own, as you only make things worse in your current frame of mind".

But I still wish you well and glad you are still here posting.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 10:12 PM, Saturday, August 27th]

I drew a boundary, in a moment of emotion,and now that my head has cleared, I'm changing the boundary. (See what I did there? laugh )

I even so appreciate you pointing this out using humor, HF. I’m sorry if my post triggered you in any way - it truly was not my intention. And it made me very sad if something I felt and said caused you to stop supporting DrS as you feel best. I truly do think it’s contrast that often brings clarity so in that regard, I consider yous and me a good team.

I also think you make a fair point in your last post. I do think it would be helpful if MrsS would use the resources that our WSs here offer.

The remorse piece is just such an elusive creature; even if you are seeing it, you just can’t be sure that’s what it actually is. Part of the reason my process took so long was my XH was exceptionally good at seeming remorseful. I stayed conflicted for a very long time for the very reasons some of you are espousing. I don’t think they are wholly without merit…I just think it’s really early for both Dr and Mrs.

I could also see where actually feeling genuine remorse is conflicting for MrsS…because it likely triggers her shame issues. (And HO has spoken to this.). That’s a really challenging place to resolve because until MrsS has had enough different experiences, until she has stepped directly into her shame and realized she lived to tell about it, it’s going to feel "life-threatening". It’s one more reason I think posting on the wayward side would help her.

I explained to her that the same flawed mechanism from the BJ incident and every other incident was present

It is the same flawed mechanism — because it’s been a week or so since her last poor response.

Change, for the best of us, doesn’t happen in that span.

It took my wife a couple YEARS to not fall to her defensive mechanism. It’s because she was that way for far longer.

These threads are moment to moment play by play, but again, ONLY five months.

Regardless of how this M turns out, neither of you are close to recovery.

As noted before, if you’re done, you are done. It is better than limbo or chasing your emotions around the room every few days.

However, you’re going to offer her a shot, that shitty reflex of hers takes time to change (and she may not be able to do it, but definitely not in a matter of days).

Truth, I'll group your last two posts together and do my best to respond.

With the intentionality piece, his wife is set up for failure by default. If she’s enthusiastic with sex, (which according to Dr is approximately 10 out of 11 times), she’s just manipulating him. If she’s not enthusiastic, then she doesn’t care about him.

That's not true. I do not think the 10 good sessions are manipulation. Others have suggested that and I've disagreed with them.

I totally get where he’s wanting it to be, that it’s not just the sex that’s the issue, but she can’t get there if all roads lead to failure. When you add in her component of people pleasing, she’s totally fucked. DrS has even indicated this when he basically says she can’t get out of her own way. HO has also described this (as I understand her). It’s not that it’s acceptable; it’s that the deck is currently stacked against her (Dr’s wife) - and I think she very much feels that. It’s one reason I’ve suggested taking sex off the table. It seems to be the most significant stumbling block right now - for BOTH of them.

I agree sex has been a catalyst for conflict; I don't think sex is the primary issue. Her incident with me giving her oral sex a few weeks ago, the BJ earlier this week, and the conversation while fully clothed today, all share the same issue.

My wife is entirely focused inward--she cares about how she feels and what she thinks. If she's angry--which is virtually always because she failed to establish a boundary on something--all she cares about is that anger. She cannot empathize with me. When I was giving her oral sex, she was pissed about her parents not being able to stay and lashed out at me. When she was giving me a BJ, she was angry about not being able to go workout. When she was answering the affair questions this afternoon, she was angry at me for asking questions similar to ones I asked months ago and it making her feel bad about herself. In all three instances, she was focused on how she felt and never considered how I felt.

Granted, the bedroom instances are more explosive because *I* find them more hurtful due to our history in the bedroom--it's an open wound for me. But the mechanism in her brain is the same all the time.

There seems to be a pattern where Dr posts things are going well and he receives a whole chorus of caution, assumptions (she’s just manipulating you), and pushing for what he’s going to do if something doesn’t go well. He draws lines in the sand because it triggers his need to self-protect. Then something doesn’t go well, he shares, and then there’s the whole chorus of action he needs to take - lest he teaches his wife that he will tolerate this kind of behavior and by that, then he also somehow is complicit in it. He’s heavily reminded of his prior "boundary" so he makes an emotional decision that he’s not emotionally resolved to support (because it was never an authentic boundary). Some time passes, initial emotion calms, and he’s re-evaluating. But when he corrects his path - based on his own internal resolve - then he gets the "I knew you wouldn’t follow through" responses so he must then reestablish the next "boundary" to self-protect. Speaking personally, this feels like shaming to me - and I’m just not ok with that. I’ve experienced this cycle - though I don’t think any of it was malicious. It just wasn’t helpful.

Dr S is a big boy here and I think he has more than demonstrated his ability to take it as well as his appreciation for it. That’s not my judgement to make or my battle to fight. But I’ve been here long enough to know that conversations that focus on gender never go well and are very rarely productive or resolvable. They’re just too emotionally charged and they often diverge into fruitless rabbit trails that end up getting the whole thread locked. That’s the logical reason for my response above. My personal reasons are different but not worth fueling the fires that will come.

I think that's fair as a general assessment, but you're not giving me enough credit here. If you think I almost kicked my WW out of the house because I was being bullied to do so by a few anonymous people on the internet, you're very much mistaken.

Is this all you got out of that whole response? If so, I would subsequently ask, which of my emphasized words stands out more to you? Because in a large sense I think this is where your threads seem to turn into the mulberry bush.

You're asking what stands out more in "scared victim"--"victim" stands out more as that's the subject--"scared" is just the adjective. And we agree she's scared--I think she often is operating out of fear. I don't think she's a victim though, but I do think the post framed her as such by emphasizing and exaggerating my perceived negative qualities. Even if that was a wholly accurate description of me, my wife still wouldn't be a victim. I don't need to better understand how my WW sees herself as a victim--I've been married to her for a decade. She's always a victim, so of course that's how she feels about herself.

(I apologize in advance if I missed your point on this specific exercise.)

To a large degree I get the impression that your wife’s authenticity is what you most want.

What I most want is to see her remorseful for the pain she caused me. After that, I think what I most want is for her to feel comfortable with open and transparent communication (which is certainly tied to her authenticity).

It’s why the sex itself doesn’t seem to be the issue; it’s how she feels about the sex. But you also want her authenticity to align with what YOU want to experience/feel. I get that…and I think that’s critical to the long term compatibility of the marriage. But there was absolutely zero regard to the fact that your wife was indeed authentic with you about how she felt about the BJ simply because her timing sucked. I get that too…how one demonstrates/shares authenticity is also important. I’m not minimizing the impact that had on you or the fact that she could have been authentic sooner and with more kindness. This is her process.

Her lashing out with anger there is who she has always been--it's not a step in a journey to be more authentic.

I am not a scared victim. I’m also quite sure of what I think and how I feel. I’ve got zero reasons to people please with you - nothing hangs in the balance. . Additionally, I am often regarded as an excellent debater - and while it may seem arrogant to admit, I do see myself that way. All that to say, I feel "defeated" in many of our exchanges. Not because I feel "bested"…but because I feel it futile - like the points I make never really get digested, just dismissed. That’s not on you…I’m just not invested enough to continue. All that to say, I can only imagine how your wife might be experiencing this - and especially based on how you’ve described her.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I enjoy reading your posts.

If you want to stay involved with the hopes that your wife will be able to implement change, you’re gonna have to decide what change is most critical and needs to come first. If it’s her authenticity then you’re gonna have to prioritize that over how you feel when she IS authentic. Part of the way to do that is to gain perspective on how your wife may be experiencing everything. The way to withstand how that affects you emotionally is to focus on that aspect (how it makes you feel) as being YOUR work.

As noted though, that's not my priority. She has some significant issues that need to be resolved--and Steven nailed it in his post: I need her to stop only looking inward. Your framing of this seems genuinely strange to me. She shows me little remorse and does hurtful things, and you respond by writing that at least she was being authentic. She has always been authentic in her hurtful moments, so it's tough to see progress in that.

Otherwise, it seems our responses are just going to continue to focus on and argue whether you just leave or stay.

I don't recall one time--in 100+ pages--asking for advice on whether I should leave or stay. That question is not my focus, regardless of how many times other people may answer it.

I think you need to read truthesetmefree's post again, and OIN's and TheEnd's.

None of them touch on bending drs to his W's will. None of them exhibit gender bias in their posts. They talk about Drs finding out what he genuinely, authentically wants and going for it. They - and I and a few others - write about Drs giving up his attempts to control outcomes, figuring out what his own authentic will is, and figuring out how to use his strength to get as much of what he wants that he can.

DrS writes again and again about what his W does without taking responsibility for his actions in setting up and staying in the relationship he has.

He wants to change his W, when all he can change is himself. To get out of this relationship and enter R or D, DrS needs to go through a process of figuring out what he wants, how to get it, etc., and he has to recognize and be open to - on a gut, not intellectual, level - that he may not be able to get it with his W. IOW, he pretty much needs to go through the process that truthsetmefree describes.

If his W does get out of her co-dependence and he doesn't, the relationship will probably end anyway.

Sisoon, you've written a variety of this post several times. I still don't understand it. I'm open to the idea that I'm an idiot on this topic.

Your posts always ignore my young children--or more to the point, they ignore my feelings on my young children.

Here's a question I have for you--and I think it might help me understand where you're coming from a bit better.

If I caught my wife having an affair about eight years ago, before we consummated my son, do you think I would have divorced her?

Thank you for inviting me back to the thread. I drew a boundary, in a moment of emotion,and now that my head has cleared, I'm changing the boundary. (See what I did there? laugh )

You hold the record for threatening to ditch me and reneging! Perhaps you're projecting your lack of boundaries onto me. ..

This is HER work. Not yours. You aren't supposed to tell her what that work is.

Agreed, I worded that poorly. I think it's for her to sort out in IC. Not only don't I know what she should do; I shouldn't be the one figuring it out.

However..let's be very honest,and stop making excuses. She doesn't know how to reach remorse? Seriously? If she spent more time reading the wayward forum,and not your thread, she would have a clue as to how to work towards remorse. Even better..she starts her own thread,and asks for specific help from people who have been in her shoes, on how to work towards remorse, and she would have former waywards rushing to help her. She got amazing support on her last thread. Yes, that would mean she will hear things that are hard. Excuse me while I roll my eyes. rolleyes You are dealing with a shit ton of hard things to deal with,thanks to her. Healing is hard. The ws here will not sugar-coat it. She needs to understand that one of the first steps towards remorse is not being coddled,and hearing things that may upset her. But she would get the help she needs. So let's not pretend she doesn't have any way to find that help. IT'S RIGHT HERE.

Agreed. She's simply too weak to do that. And it's sad.

If she chooses to continue to wring her hands,and play little girl lost,who just doesn't know what to do to find remorse, or heal the damage she's caused...when you know she has this valuable resource RIGHT HERE, and she chooses not to take advantage of it, then its not that she doesn't know how..she would rather you twist in the wind,than be uncomfortable.

Precisely. Right now she is focused on her not feeling uncomfortable.

Yes. I was reading your post an thought "this is what I just wrote about!!"

I think it comes down to just that when faced with awful infidelity…. Can the WS find empathy. Can they stop being so Inward focused and take months, even a few years and focus on their partner and the pain they caused them. Can they let their partner know that they are a safe person for them to heal with.

Your wife, in my opinion, has really shown none of these traits unfortunately.

She cares solely about how each interaction, no matter what it entails, emotionally or physically or other, affects her. And then she reacts to that based on how it made her, not you, feel.

That is something for her to work on herself, in IC.

The only difference between you and me is, at this point I’d be saying "call me when you’ve figured it out, it’s time for me to heal on my own, as you only make things worse in your current frame of mind".

But I still wish you well and glad you are still here posting.

Steven, that's fair. And I think it's possible, sadly, that's where I end up.

I could also see where actually feeling genuine remorse is conflicting for MrsS…because it likely triggers her shame issues. (And HO has spoken to this.). That’s a really challenging place to resolve because until MrsS has had enough different experiences, until she has stepped directly into her shame and realized she lived to tell about it, it’s going to feel "life-threatening". It’s one more reason I think posting on the wayward side would help her.

Truth, I think you're right. In the brief conversation on the couch, she was fine at first. About 10+ minutes in I noticed a shift in her demeanor. I suspect it was her shame kicking in--it's a massive weight for her knowing what she did to our family and she looks at me and thinks: "He's the one making me feel this way right now! I was feeling fine before he asked these questions!"

She hasn't found a path to owning that shame.

It is the same flawed mechanism — because it’s been a week or so since her last poor response.

Change, for the best of us, doesn’t happen in that span.

It took my wife a couple YEARS to not fall to her defensive mechanism. It’s because she was that way for far longer.

These threads are moment to moment play by play, but again, ONLY five months.

Regardless of how this M turns out, neither of you are close to recovery.

As noted before, if you’re done, you are done. It is better than limbo or chasing your emotions around the room every few days.

However, you’re going to offer her a shot, that shitty reflex of hers takes time to change (and she may not be able to do it, but definitely not in a matter of days).

Understood, OldWounds.

To be clear, I wasn't mad or upset today. When these instances happen out of the bedroom, I'm clam and collected and try to use them to showcase exactly what is going wrong. In the bedroom, they're more explosive because I'm hurt by them. That's what I need to guard against better. So with her initiating now, perhaps we avoid it for a bit.

To a large degree I get the impression that your wife’s authenticity is what you most want.

What I most want is to see her remorseful for the pain she caused me.

Ok, this is a surprise to me so it may be a factor in why I feel my responses have not really "landed".

While I get this as a concept and can certainly accept that this is your biggest desire, I can’t relate in that it’s so immeasurable. As I stated earlier, my XH’s feigned remorse was a huge stumbling block so I’m probably not going to be much help to you since I just give so very little value to that as a pre-requisite. It’s not that I don’t think it important…I just drove myself damn near to the funny farm trying to interpret whether it really was or wasn’t.

To be clear, I wasn't mad or upset today.

Fair enough, but it didn’t read as a good update.

You said she understood a bit more when you explained her reaction.

She will either start to put that bad reaction with her last one and start adding things up or not.

Members here are correct in that you wife will have to do the work, and a whole bunch of it too. However, in my case it did help my wife for me to point out the changes I needed. I never signed up to be a wife coach. But, I wanted her out of the shame spiral, I needed to help her back out of the hole she dug.

If your wife is barely finished with the rationalizations she used to back her shitty choices, remorse is still a bit down the road. The connection she broke, as mentioned before (as you’re living it) is going to stay that way until she sees a path back.

In that sense, maybe this wasn’t a lost day.

Once my wife understood the information about the A was owed to me (that time stolen from my M needed a full accounting), she answered all future questions as open, honest and as brutal as I needed. I wanted the answers, not to add to my pain, but to KNOW she was BRAVE enough to tell me the horror show. The beginning of earning trust.

Also, in retelling the horror show, the fantasy bubble evaporated. She realized how shallow it all was.

That step was 3-6 months.

Breaking the defensive/blame shift reflex.

That step was TWO years.

Remorse kicks in when a WS finally understands, there is never a defense for those choices. We all can be resentful, not all of us cheat. It’s a cold, calculated series of choices to cheat.

Year seven, my wife still hasn’t forgiven herself, but the shame is a shadow of what it used to be. Shame slows down and stops a lot of WS from progress.

Best to you and yours going forward.

I will always understand a father trying to keep his family together, even through this unique Hell.

You're asking what stands out more in "scared victim"--"victim" stands out more as that's the subject--"scared" is just the adjective.

And good god, DrS, you are literally more literal than I could have imagined.

It's hard to understand why you WANT to be so vulnerable with your wife right now. Its definitely unusual, as others and your MC have pointed out. I can't imagine being sexually attracted to someone who treats me this way.

Yes you're early in the process. Yes your wife has shown almost zero aptitude for remorse. But even the most dense WS usually knows they don't get to say the BS can't ask questions. I'm glad to see you recognize it for what it is - she can only see her own feelings and never considers yours.

Ok, this is a surprise to me so it may be a factor in why I feel my responses have not really "landed".

While I get this as a concept and can certainly accept that this is your biggest desire, I can’t relate in that it’s so immeasurable. As I stated earlier, my XH’s feigned remorse was a huge stumbling block so I’m probably not going to be much help to you since I just give so very little value to that as a pre-requisite. It’s not that I don’t think it important…I just drove myself damn near to the funny farm trying to interpret whether it really was or wasn’t. duh

I feel like it needs to be the first step. Without me believing she has genuine remorse, how can I move forward in a committed relationship with her?

And I do feel it’s measurable. I’ve spent months looking for more empathy from her. All of the examples I’m giving are situations where she is not empathetic and not demonstrating the level of remorse I need to see.

That doesn’t mean it’s toxic—we are largely good and spending a lot of time together. Things are positive. Today’s red flag from the conversation didn’t get ugly—we talked it through and she understands what she needs to change.

I understand you’re more focused on authenticity—as are a few other posters—but my feeling is that is more for R. I need to get there first. Her being authentic isn’t valuable to me if I don’t respect who she is.