SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I suspect that your W's A removed the external validation she gave you.

It does that for all of us. The thing is: the people who heal somehow figure out that it is dependence on external validation that is their problem. They worked to discover their own self-worth. Don't get me wrong - external validation is nice to have, but there's a giant difference between liking it and needing it.

*****

Ending your parenthood in your relationship with your W is very much tied up with ending a need for external validation, which is very much tied up with finding your own self-worth, which is very much tied up with staying out of Drama Triangles, which is very much tied up with ending your co-dependence, etc. etc., etc.

This is GOLD!

Thank you Sisoon. I bet many of us wish we had understood the importance of this on our D-days.

Yes. You should pick your battles. It's not worth pointing out.

I just bought three boxes of pasta because they were buy 2 get 1 free. I'd forgotten that I did that exact thing three days ago, so now I have 6 boxes of pasta. I do this sort of thing regularly enough to say that it's just for whatever reason how I'm wired. I'm not going to remember each item I purchased at the grocery store unless I only shop via instacart and can get up and go to the pantry to look and make sure I haven't already taken advantage of a deal. At this point I just make a blonde joke about myself and feel bemused when I realize I've done it. Obviously it's not intentional because I do care about money. It's all my own money. I cannot fix this one even when I'm the only one it affects. Anyone who has ever lived with me has had to just accept that this is one of my quirks. Anyone who ever lives with me is either going to drive themselves and me utterly insane about that particular quirk or just get over it and write it off as the price of living with me. I have lots of good qualities, but this isn't one of them.

Things like this aren't the things that matter. Honesty, maturity, loyalty, respect and the acceptance of one another's quirks are necessary for a happy marriage. You have lots of reasons to be irritated with your wife. Little things like this are minor and not worth caring about.

It's just how I've always been wired. Even reading this, my brain was screaming: "But dry pasta isn't perishable like fresh fruit!"

Of course, that's not the point though. I do need to be more accepting of her flaws. My solution years ago was to stop yelling or becoming visibly angry, but in her view, I'm sure my criticism was constant.

R, from the posts all the way to my last post, as all your posts will somehow circle to giving another chance, as you need to 'understand' more.

I still don't understand the perspective. If I was "forcing" R, why would I keep engaging in conflict over her bad behavior? Honestly, why would I be doing virtually anything I'm doing--including writing here? I'm a logical guy and the most direct path to R is rug-sweeping the entire affair. I could do that today if I wanted to do it.

Perhaps I'm trying to force R on my terms, but the result of doing that is very much unknown. So it's not a forced outcome, it's a forced approach.

I'll state it again though--I can't commit to R until I feel like she is genuinely and continually remorseful. And even then, who knows what troubles await us in R and if we'll make it through. So I don't disagree that I'd like for her to be remorseful so we can attempt R on behalf of our children, but I have no control over her behavior, and thus have no control over the outcome.

Then I read your responses since then, and looks like you have possibly identified a possible cause of the dynamics you have with your WW, the Parent/Child dynamic.

It makes a lot of sense. The Parent loves the Child, and wants to protect and develop/guide the Child. When the Child lashes out, the Parent 'takes it', as they are the 'grown up'. The Parent tries to understand the the whys of the Child's behaviour, so that the Parent can try and correct the Child's behaviour. 'Love is patient, Love is kind' kinda thing.

Perhaps I am missing out on the nuances/context, but the way I have been reading your posts is: Your WW hurts you, you get hurt for a little bit, then your inner Parent comes out and says 'the Child did not really mean it, and could not help themselves', so I won't enforce a punishment for them, because I don't want to scare the Child from confiding in me.

I think there's a lot of truth to that. I'm always the "teacher" in the relationship. I'm the "smart" one. They're roles we fell into--perhaps of my doing; it's hard to tell. And I do desperately want my WW to feel comfortable confiding in me because I'm looking for that as a sign of open communication. That's what hurts me most about the affair: it was her secret life--a life-changing activity she embarked on without me.

I am still worried that you are analysing so much, and may get caught in the forest/trees trap.

I don't think there's any possibility that is untrue. I analyze everything going on constantly. I keep looking for the most efficient paths forward.

It's how my brain is wired: everything for me is a problem to solve. If you gave me a list of five items I needed to go buy, I'd very quickly figure out the most efficient way to acquire all five and get back home as quickly and efficiently as possible--the store I'd go to first, etc. That's the way I see the world. I suspect it comes from my mother, whose mind operates in a similar way.

A common thing on couples who are trying to repair the damage, is to set aside time for discussions about the A, and not ad hoc discussion. Aside from setting aside the time, both parties can get into the proper frame of mind, so that the discussion can be held calmly, rather than perceived as an ambush.

That's something I think we've gotten better at over the months. We established the 9 p.m. cutoff awhile ago and I don't bring up an affair-related topic without providing her sufficient prep time to engage.

Doc. I used to be exactly like you. Critical, judgmental, perfectionist imposing that standard on my wife and child, quick to anger, condescending at times.

I then had the same epiphany you just had, and decided I needed to implement change.

The first thing I did to change was to take a blank piece of paper and on one side write down these negative attributes and on the other my positive attributes.

Next, I decided that I needed to follow the guidance of this song I heard long ago and which you may know - Accentuate the Positive by the Andrew sisters. The portion of the song I took was this:

You got to ac-cent-tchu-ate the positive
E-lim-i-nate the negative
And latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mr. In-between

Now, in the moment, being mindful, anytime my wife, daughter, or anyone starts to trigger me by their actions, I play this song in my head. I’m on autopilot now wrt this now.

In the moment I stop, step back, think about my negative attributes and the song, and behave accordingly. My old self has now turned into water off a ducks back, who cares, it’s ok, no big deal.

This is my recommendation - make the list, play the song on utube, and listen to it many, many, times.

Sounds simple? It turned the former me, snd kind of current you, into current me, which everyone in my life has recognized as a person with a changed personality.

But dry pasta isn't perishable like fresh fruit!"

Right? Would it be arrogant to say I knew,as I was reading that post,that that what you were thinking? Lol. I was thinking the same thing.

HOWEVER..I'm gonna side with your wife here. She's not perfect. She has a demanding,full time job,and 2 little kids at home. It's NORMAL for her to forget everything in your fridge,and pantry. It's NORMAL for her to buy something you already have. You say you need to be more accepting of her flaws. I don't see this as a flaw. I see this as your flaw. Yes, I understand the concern about money..except from what you've posted,buying extra at the store isn't going to put you in the negative at the bank. And she makes a very good salary. So if she wants to buy extra at the store..that should be ok. I get why you say you are frugal when it comes to food. Frankly,I'm the same way. But, to be chastised over extra strawberries? That's too far,IMO. That sounds like a you problem, not a her problem.

If I was "forcing" R, why would I keep engaging in conflict over her bad behavior?

Because that's what R looks like in the first several months. Attempting to R doesn't mean you just overlook their shitty behaviors. Hate to tell you this Doc, but you've been attempting to R since the beginning. It's not going well, because she is unremorseful.

[This message edited by HellFire at 2:15 PM, Monday, August 29th]

I've tried every budget mechanism out there--no dice. She would have to care about it to make the change, and she doesn't.

In my mind, I feel like if I inform her about all the strawberries, it might click in her head that she should be more conscientious. It never happens though. So to you point, it's not worth even pointing out probably--I should pick my battles.

Did you miss my point? Choosing your battles is exactly the kind of mindset that you should be avoiding because it puts you and her at opposing ends. If the budget doesn't work, why not the fridge app or the compost tumbler? Or sitting down, talking about it, and finding a solution to try together as a team? Maybe if you've tried more than two things and nothing works, it's worth putting aside. The strawberries may not be worth it but if every little issues becomes a situation where you feel you must stifle yourself, drop it, or admonish her, nothing gets solved and both of you become more resentful. The whole framing around issues like this needs to change.

But dry pasta isn't perishable like fresh fruit!"

Right? Would it be arrogant to say I knew,as I was reading that post,that that what you were thinking? Lol. I was thinking the same thing.

I feel I must humbly admit that it has sometimes been fresh fruit for me too.

My first husband was one to be really bothered by this and any other thing I did that he wouldn't do. By the time I divorced him I had just about decided that maybe I was so flawed that the only person who could stand to live with me was me. That constant criticism is damaging. When I got real about it, I realized there were a thousand things I could have criticized about him (socks always on the floor, hair from shaving in the sink, stupid TV shows he'd watch, etc.) but I hadn't bothered to because I came at cohabiting from the perspective that we were two different people who weren't going to do everything the same way. The trivial things didn't get to me as long as I could have the important things. I had no interest in changing him. That hasn't ever been a thing I've thought I could do, to change a person. I would say "dude I am not cleaning your side of the bathroom because ha ha at your sink" but whatever, he'd laugh and clean it and no big deal. Didn't phase me. None of us get to live with a partner who is the exact same as we are in our habits and quirks. He was a morning person and I was a night owl. I never got annoyed that he wanted to go to bed earlier than I did but he was profoundly annoyed that I wasn't awake as early as he was. Infidelity aside, I don't know how it works out between people with opposite attitudes about the differences. We divorced and I got to live without constant criticism and he got to live without someone doing things differently from him.

Sometimes you get too many strawberries just seems to me like not even a problem. I've done that and gotten right down to munching on my extra strawberries, lol.

If you are taking issue with extra strawberries and setting the table incorrectly, these are control issues. Your wife is susceptible to being controlled because of her own issues. You chose each other for a reason. Should you divorce in the future these patterns would repeat. That’s why you need to focus on you.

Hellfire is right, your wife works full time and has two little kids. The reframing here should be that she cares about them having what they need and she goes by the grocery store and picks up things she thinks they need. Since it’s trying to get things all at once so she doesn’t have to take time to stop again she gets things you all tend to go through.

I agree she is going to have to find her authenticity before she is going to find remorse. Because as long as she is walking on eggshells even over very minor things, those go in her resentment file and it becomes impossible to be empathetic with you.

I am not making excuses for her. I get that she cheated and that all bets are off. But these dynamics between you have been long standing.

I am still not suggesting it’s the relationship you are working on. A few pages back it dawned on me why you could not grasp work on you, and why you tend to get defensive (until these last posts) when we discuss your behavior. Your answer is clear, that your resentments of her prior to the A were definitely hindering your closeness to her and the A understandably sent you over the edge and you just want her to fix herself while you try and recover from her affair.

In some ways it’s almost impossible for a new bs to focus on themselves. The shock and pain over the affair gets you hyper vigilant over her so you can make a decision about your future. It’s hard for you to see that what you can guarantee is a future with yourself and this work we are talking about is going to dictate what that looks like.

You have to think of these changes as positive for you (and really your kids, do you want to model this behavior for them? Probably mot, you would be repeating your dads methods but maybe just no where as severely) . Whether you are a single man, in a relationship with someone else, or with her. Your father showed you a lot of criticism, and that has made you rigid enough to be worried about extra strawberries. She has to learn to find her worth enough not to be bothered by the fact she doesn’t live up to your expectations on even the smallest things. And you have to work to where these things don’t even come up on your radar.

And, yes your money is together but I am going to guess she earns her share of it. If you are worried about frivolousness maybe there needs to be a new approach to how you handle finances so you both have some level of autonomy while household expenses are being met.

I am very pleased that sisoon has been able to frame this in a way that finally hit a target.

Finally!
After hundreds of posts and Dr S repeatedly referring to Mrs S as acting like a child it comes out that this "child/parent" thing is a problem...
(Pro tip of the day: Don't tell another adult they acting like a child)
I got the feeling Dr S liked (either consciously or unconsciously) the way he could calmly outsmart Mrs S. Every. Single. Time.
IIRC you have favorite restaurants in Italy and had prime seats at a Springsteen concert? And now you get tee'd off about extra strawberries? So it's not about the money, it's about something Dr S would never do...but Mrs S did.

You don't always need to prove that you are the smartest person in the room.

(PS I am not on Mrs S side as she did a horrible thing and I hope they can figure out something they both can live with)

I genuinely thought you already knew you had a parent/child dynamic. You call her a child. You talk about how she's not very smart. You say you are smarter than her. You have scolded her(the table setting incident..I know you don't see it as scolding).

I thought you knew, but felt you had to be the parent because she is so inept in many areas. I don't mean that as a slam. You have pointed out her inability to do many things,over the last 100 pages. Heck,it took us a long time to get through to you that she has to do the work,that you can't do it for her. For a long time,you insisted you had to either do it for her,or hold her hand and walk her through it,otherwise she wouldn't be able to do it on her own.

Now that you do know, you can be more mindful in your interactions. Just as she needs to learn to hold her tongue, and not be cruel,you need to take a step back,and not parent your wife,when she hasn't done something the way you think she should have.

[This message edited by HellFire at 6:10 PM, Monday, August 29th]

Bringing home an accidental extra basket of strawberries is just that...some extra strawberries. Lighten up. Make a pie, make chocolate covered strawberries, make strawberry pancakes. Dear God over analyzing how you need to react and parent that you'd think she's coming home with adopted shelter puppies on the regular.

I think the most natural question after realization like that would be "why". Why was a dynamic like that established in the first place? And before we plunge into the forest of FOO issues, I think it's a good idea to look at the most straightforward answer: It truly worked and was most natural for both of you. I think this answer is essential because it predicts how tough it will be to change. More challenging than most habits. And also why both of you will fight that change with strategies you've developed over the years.

I am not fearful of separation because my WW might realize she doesn't want to be married to me; if anything, I'm more fearful that I'll realize I don't want to be married to her. It's much easier to persevere my marriage if I want to do it than if I just feel like I need to do it.

I've prepared a giant wall of text about why inconsistencies in your choices proved otherwise, but I've realized I would not convince myself if I were in your shoes, so I think I will point out just one thing:

If you don't want to be married to her, you will realize it sooner or later.

I personally think the sooner, the better.

I'd also like to take a quick look at the issue HellFire pointed:

You say you're smarter than your wife.

You may be more competent, but I wouldn't be so sure if you were more intelligent. When I look at the woman you've painted till now, I certainly don't see a simple person.

Edit: I was trying to say that part of the price for changing parent/child dynamics may be the feeling that you are smarter.

[This message edited by Stich at 8:56 AM, Tuesday, August 30th]

It is often written that the first thing to suffer in a parent/child relationship is sex. This is from just one website, but feel free to do your own research.

Intimacy is the first thing to usually go because nobody wants to be intimate with their parent.

So, that's one good reason to throw all your energy into changing this. But there are many others.

I got the feeling Dr S liked (either consciously or unconsciously) the way he could calmly outsmart Mrs S. Every. Single. Time.

I think this is an important distinction - and I’m speaking from my own personal experience about proverbial rocks vs hard places.

One doesn’t have to necessarily like the rock OR hard place…it’s just that one feels more comfortable than the other.

And it will likely stay that way until you get a better option/response. We tend to focus on what seems the easiest (and sometimes the most obvious - changing his wife), whereas the resolve tends to lie in addressing the most uncomfortable (changing ourselves - and on a deeper level. Otherwise, it’s not authentic.)

Doc. I used to be exactly like you. Critical, judgmental, perfectionist imposing that standard on my wife and child, quick to anger, condescending at times.

I then had the same epiphany you just had, and decided I needed to implement change.

The first thing I did to change was to take a blank piece of paper and on one side write down these negative attributes and on the other my positive attributes.

Next, I decided that I needed to follow the guidance of this song I heard long ago and which you may know - Accentuate the Positive by the Andrew sisters. The portion of the song I took was this:

You got to ac-cent-tchu-ate the positive
E-lim-i-nate the negative
And latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mr. In-between

Now, in the moment, being mindful, anytime my wife, daughter, or anyone starts to trigger me by their actions, I play this song in my head. I’m on autopilot now wrt this now.

In the moment I stop, step back, think about my negative attributes and the song, and behave accordingly. My old self has now turned into water off a ducks back, who cares, it’s ok, no big deal.

This is my recommendation - make the list, play the song on utube, and listen to it many, many, times.

Sounds simple? It turned the former me, snd kind of current you, into current me, which everyone in my life has recognized as a person with a changed personality.

Dude, I appreciate you sharing this with me. This is going to be my focus for the short-term and what I plan to dig into in my next IC session.

HOWEVER..I'm gonna side with your wife here. She's not perfect. She has a demanding,full time job,and 2 little kids at home. It's NORMAL for her to forget everything in your fridge,and pantry. It's NORMAL for her to buy something you already have. You say you need to be more accepting of her flaws. I don't see this as a flaw. I see this as your flaw. Yes, I understand the concern about money..except from what you've posted,buying extra at the store isn't going to put you in the negative at the bank. And she makes a very good salary. So if she wants to buy extra at the store..that should be ok. I get why you say you are frugal when it comes to food. Frankly,I'm the same way. But, to be chastised over extra strawberries? That's too far,IMO. That sounds like a you problem, not a her problem.

I want to agree with you--meaning, that's how I want to think. But I don't. If I bought the extra strawberries, I'd be pissed at myself too. It's an exhausting way to live. As Dude points out, I need to be willing to let the little stuff slide more--something I've been working on for years, but clearly not enough.

Just like your wife wants to stop reacting in anger,but it's who she is..and that's part of the work she needs to be doing?

This is part of your work. You've been working on it for years? Keep working.

It's great that you acknowledge its your issue,not hers. That's a huge step.

Did you miss my point? Choosing your battles is exactly the kind of mindset that you should be avoiding because it puts you and her at opposing ends. If the budget doesn't work, why not the fridge app or the compost tumbler? Or sitting down, talking about it, and finding a solution to try together as a team? Maybe if you've tried more than two things and nothing works, it's worth putting aside. The strawberries may not be worth it but if every little issues becomes a situation where you feel you must stifle yourself, drop it, or admonish her, nothing gets solved and both of you become more resentful. The whole framing around issues like this needs to change.

For several years, we'd sit down and discuss our finances a few times a year. It's a larger conversation than strawberries.

When I was in my early 20s, every year, I'd save money and add about $5,000 to my stock portfolio. I'd talk with her about how we should instead try to add $5k each to a joint-stock portfolio. She was always enthusiastic about the idea and would be eager to tell me about her success in saving money after a month or two. By the end of the year, she was always in the red though and would have zero dollars to add to her savings or our joint-account. It was disheartening for me. She could string together a few weeks, but could never go a year without impulse buying expensive designer clothing.

I tried *everything* to help her out--various mechanisms to help her save--but ultimately I suspect they just enforced the parent-child dynamic we fell into so hard.

As many of you may recall from my first thread, she actually took on tens of thousands of dollars in debt about 6-7 years ago and never told me about it. I found out after D-Day that she had been paying off the minimum on her credit card all this time. So it hurts even more to know we were having these conversations about saving together while she was hiding her growing debt from me.

Ultimately, she does not value money; only what money can get for her. She derives no pleasure from looking at a larger bank account--she'd rater it have $0 and a Gucci jacket in her closet. That's just how she is wired. It's very opposite to how I'm wired and I've failed at making much progress at a compromise.

She has improved with one regard and that's her setting up regular money transfers to the kids' college funds. She's taken pride in doing that, so that's at least something.

But the bottom-line is I don't have any desire to press this further. I've spent a decade trying to approach this topic from a place of love--but she's not a serious person in regard to finances. She doesn't care about wasting money on strawberries or anything else--it's entirely meaningless to her. She's going to have to spend years more working her high stress job because of her approach, but I've ran out of ways to explain that to her--and as I mentioned, I think me trying to explain it at all has been a net-negative on our relationship. So there's no sit-down or app that is going to help unfortunately.

If I want to continue in the relationship with her, I need to figure out a better way of approaching all of this; and the first thing on my list is being less critical of the little stuff.

I feel I must humbly admit that it has sometimes been fresh fruit for me too. grin

My first husband was one to be really bothered by this and any other thing I did that he wouldn't do. By the time I divorced him I had just about decided that maybe I was so flawed that the only person who could stand to live with me was me. That constant criticism is damaging. When I got real about it, I realized there were a thousand things I could have criticized about him (socks always on the floor, hair from shaving in the sink, stupid TV shows he'd watch, etc.) but I hadn't bothered to because I came at cohabiting from the perspective that we were two different people who weren't going to do everything the same way. The trivial things didn't get to me as long as I could have the important things. I had no interest in changing him. That hasn't ever been a thing I've thought I could do, to change a person. I would say "dude I am not cleaning your side of the bathroom because ha ha at your sink" but whatever, he'd laugh and clean it and no big deal. Didn't phase me. None of us get to live with a partner who is the exact same as we are in our habits and quirks. He was a morning person and I was a night owl. I never got annoyed that he wanted to go to bed earlier than I did but he was profoundly annoyed that I wasn't awake as early as he was. Infidelity aside, I don't know how it works out between people with opposite attitudes about the differences. We divorced and I got to live without constant criticism and he got to live without someone doing things differently from him.

Sometimes you get too many strawberries just seems to me like not even a problem. I've done that and gotten right down to munching on my extra strawberries, lol.

Thanks, Dee. And yes, I need to mellow out on my criticism. I like Dude's post on this and I'm going to work at it.

If you are taking issue with extra strawberries and setting the table incorrectly, these are control issues. Your wife is susceptible to being controlled because of her own issues. You chose each other for a reason. Should you divorce in the future these patterns would repeat. That’s why you need to focus on you.

Hellfire is right, your wife works full time and has two little kids. The reframing here should be that she cares about them having what they need and she goes by the grocery store and picks up things she thinks they need. Since it’s trying to get things all at once so she doesn’t have to take time to stop again she gets things you all tend to go through.

I agree she is going to have to find her authenticity before she is going to find remorse. Because as long as she is walking on eggshells even over very minor things, those go in her resentment file and it becomes impossible to be empathetic with you.

I am not making excuses for her. I get that she cheated and that all bets are off. But these dynamics between you have been long standing.

I am still not suggesting it’s the relationship you are working on. A few pages back it dawned on me why you could not grasp work on you, and why you tend to get defensive (until these last posts) when we discuss your behavior. Your answer is clear, that your resentments of her prior to the A were definitely hindering your closeness to her and the A understandably sent you over the edge and you just want her to fix herself while you try and recover from her affair.

In some ways it’s almost impossible for a new bs to focus on themselves. The shock and pain over the affair gets you hyper vigilant over her so you can make a decision about your future. It’s hard for you to see that what you can guarantee is a future with yourself and this work we are talking about is going to dictate what that looks like.

You have to think of these changes as positive for you (and really your kids, do you want to model this behavior for them? Probably mot, you would be repeating your dads methods but maybe just no where as severely) . Whether you are a single man, in a relationship with someone else, or with her. Your father showed you a lot of criticism, and that has made you rigid enough to be worried about extra strawberries. She has to learn to find her worth enough not to be bothered by the fact she doesn’t live up to your expectations on even the smallest things. And you have to work to where these things don’t even come up on your radar.

And, yes your money is together but I am going to guess she earns her share of it. If you are worried about frivolousness maybe there needs to be a new approach to how you handle finances so you both have some level of autonomy while household expenses are being met.

I am very pleased that sisoon has been able to frame this in a way that finally hit a target.

Thank you, HikingOut. I agree that if my goal is really for her to find remorse, I need to stop adding to her resentments. I can make this easier on her; and I will.

AS for our finances, I made a longer post above on them--it's a longstanding issue that I don't have the bandwidth to resolve now. That's for a MC session down the line.