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A little off- topic but I’ve been wanting to ask you this since your first thread ….

Why did you select the U/N you did? I assume it’s from the movie but was wondering if you could share your thought process on that. And especially if the movie was not the catalyst. Just curious.

I don’t want to seem like I know the answer to the financial situation. I was talking above as an example what a boundary would look like in that realm. I have no idea if your finances to know how to deal with your budget. These are more about boundary principles not financial ones.

A boundary could look like there is nothing joint. I know plenty of couples that say here is our household expenses. One PayPal’s the other their share. Then if she doesn’t invest then really that isn’t your problem. Your savings is your savings and she shouldn’t have access. The purpose of the suggestion was you find ways to not make her problems your problems or vice versa. My point is she is an adult and makes her own money, so as long as she is doing her share of the household expenses the rest doesn’t need to be scrutinized.

Another boundary- no shared credit cards.

In your posts you complain about something and then say it doesn’t bother you so sometimes that is confusing to deal with. If it didn’t bother you I don’t believe it would make it to the post. I suspect you realize it’s silly because it’s being scrutinized, and then you examine it. Before now I have to guess a lot of that was the way I did things. I didn’t accept it, but I didn’t do anything to change it either. So it would boil over from time to time.

No one thinks you are yelling or stomping your feet. I am merely saying there are lots of ways to create a boundary that puts her own responsibility on her. Is it ideal to separate finances? No, maybe not. I tend to like keeping finances together myself. But it maybe was is needed if she is committing financial infidelity.

To me this is just another place you don’t protect yourself but assign her the full responsibility when you are hurt. This is what a boundary does. Most people do have boundaries around finances, but if both people can’t respect them then separating it makes the most sense.

Take her out of it, let’s say this was someone new. Your wife and you are divorced and now you have someone you are serious about. You will likely hyper correct and tolerate nothing, or you will find someone who is complainant and goes along and you will not recognize it’s another people pleaser. You would have no more skills then in making a boundary than you do now.

Our parent child relationship was I did everything he ever asked. I pushed aside my own instincts over and over and deferred to him on everything. I am not sure that scenario is worse but it’s certainly not better.

You keep talking about what you have leverage over. The reality is a lot of times that is a sign of an unhealthy boundary. Boundaries are bout both parties being responsible for their side.

I logged into a dating site and found a guy and met up pretty much immediately. Yeah, the next day was beyond awful. I have worked on why that was the reaction in therapy and it seems to have boiled down to how I respond to things. There's fight, flight and freeze and I'm stuck on fight. I reacted to being raped at 16 by becoming sexually aggressive and promiscuous. Infidelity was another sexual wound, so I guess it makes sense that I reacted basically the same way. Very disturbing, though. I guess it was better than killing him, lol.

I'm so sorry. That's a horrific event at anytime, let alone at 16. I do think that trend is interesting--young women becoming promiscuous and sexually aggressive to provide an illusion of control and sexual confidence.

Do you regret the mad hatter experience or toss it up as a moment of total destruction to your life regardless? And on the bright side, you probably made that guy's month!

Ha ha ha, we do have a lot in common in some ways. I was surprised to find out that my XWH had been passive-aggressive with me a good part of the relationship because that stuff flies right over my head. "Do you want to eat at ____ tonight?" "Sure". Sure was apparently full of resentment that I didn't remember that he liked the other place better or whatever. "Are you feeling okay?" "I'm fine" and I was the bad guy because I took him at his word and didn't cajole the real problem out of him. So I was happy and thought he was happy too because he didn't know how to use his words and express himself. He was a grown-ass man and I am not clairvoyant.

That all speaks to me. I'm more frustrated at not realizing it than I am she's like that. She is how she is--knowing about it would have really helped how we communicate I think.

Yeah. I got put into a mom role too and I don't find that the least bit cute. He felt like a teenager running around behind my back. It thrilled him. Shockingly immature.

So you say you didn't enjoy the mom role--how are you so certain? Is that just upon reflection? I assume you had to want that role for the relationship to work in the first place.

I can say I hate the dad role now, but I imagine some part of me must have been drawn to it to marry the partner I did.

A little off- topic but I’ve been wanting to ask you this since your first thread blink ….

Why did you select the U/N you did? I assume it’s from the movie but was wondering if you could share your thought process on that. And especially if the movie was not the catalyst. Just curious. smile

I'm a big cinephile. Along with working out, I'd label those my two biggest passions/hobbies throughout my adult life.

Dr. Strangelove has been one of my five or so favorite films since high school probably--and it's my favorite comedy by a fair margin. I don't know that I was thinking anything specific at the time I made it here--perhaps it seemed more appropriate than The Godfather or The Human Condition...

Though in retrospect, the latter may have made the most sense.

P.S. My WW hates the movie (along with most classic and foreign films); I showed it to her back in college and she didn't laugh once. Perhaps I deserve this destination.

Then if she doesn’t invest then really that isn’t your problem.

I'm struggling to understand how that's true. We're married, so financial freedom is a joint endeavor. How would we determine when to retire? Would I reframe my savings goals to support both of us for the rest of our lives while she burns her cash as she wants? I suppose I *could* do that--if I did, I could solve my anger. I suspect I'm unwilling to pursue that option though.

Another boundary- no shared credit cards.

That seems like a nightmare, but you're right that it would be a boundary solution. It seems like that might lead to more resentment from her. Determining what is a shared expense--knowing her, she'd buy things for the house, not ask me to pay, then resent me for not paying.

The problem is larger anyway. Any solution I pursue, she will agree with. But she will not agree with it.

In your posts you complain about something and then say it doesn’t bother you so sometimes that is confusing to deal with. If it didn’t bother you I don’t believe it would make it to the post. I suspect you realize it’s silly because it’s being scrutinized, and then you examine it. Before now I have to guess a lot of that was the way I did things. I didn’t accept it, but I didn’t do anything to change it either. So it would boil over from time to time.

I'm trying to unpack the issues. I'm very much not complaining about her buying a Gucci jacket. That specific action doesn't phase me. She buys new cloths every week and I genuinely don't care. But then she fails to meet her financial agreements with me and I look back at those actions as problematic.

To me this is just another place you don’t protect yourself but assign her the full responsibility when you are hurt. This is what a boundary does.

That's a fair criticism. And clearly an issue I need to address. I appreciate the framing.

You keep talking about what you have leverage over. The reality is a lot of times that is a sign of an unhealthy boundary. Boundaries are bout both parties being responsible for their side.

I'm certain you're right.

I've been given a lot to think about today.

Do you regret the mad hatter experience or toss it up as a moment of total destruction to your life regardless? And on the bright side, you probably made that guy's month!

I'm sure I did make the guy's month, lol. I never got to the point where I felt a lot of remorse towards my XWH about it because it felt to me like I had stolen $5 from Bernie Madoff when comparing bad deeds. I do regret it and have remorse towards the guy I hooked up with. It was irresponsible of me to risk that man's health that way. I had just found out that my XWH had been sleeping with multiple drug addicted prostitutes and hell, for all I knew I could have had HIV. I got lucky on the STD score. Just a nasty strain of HPV.

That all speaks to me. I'm more frustrated at not realizing it than I am she's like that. She is how she is--knowing about it would have really helped how we communicate I think.

Me too. It was just another way he'd made a fool out of me. Pretending happiness and fostering resentment.

So you say you didn't enjoy the mom role--how are you so certain? Is that just upon reflection? I assume you had to want that role for the relationship to work in the first place.

I can say I hate the dad role now, but I imagine some part of me must have been drawn to it to marry the partner I did.

I didn't take on the mom role on my end. I didn't control his life. I didn't correct him. I didn't keep tabs on him like you would a child. The only way it affected me was that the sex went from super hot to him turning me down for sex, even blowjobs. He had a wife who loved giving blowjobs, gave excellent blowjobs, and he stopped finding me attractive after we got married. I didn't change. I looked the same. But I got put into a mom box. I was there for home comfort all of a sudden. I don't mind snuggling on the couch but I also need to be put up against the damned wall every so often. I was a sexual being and began being treated like a mom to rebel against. That was the female equivalent of emasculation to me. Ugh. No. I did not enjoy that. He told me he had put me there in his head in some of our post DDay discussions. I found it repulsive.

I'm struggling to understand how that's true. We're married, so financial freedom is a joint endeavor. How would we determine when to retire? Would I reframe my savings goals to support both of us for the rest of our lives while she burns her cash as she wants? I suppose I *could* do that--if I did, I could solve my anger. I suspect I'm unwilling to pursue that option though.

Well at this point you don’t know if you will be separated next week. Why even worry at this point about you will have to support her in her old age?

Again, I do not assert this is the solution, but I am asserting there are always a lot of solutions besides leverage, separation and divorce. I understand that your main goals need to align or why stay married, so this is maybe a bit far fetched but honestly these are the types of solutions you have to think about. Until you find the one that is reasonable.

Probably none of these things bothered you as much before she cheated. Infidelity has a way of putting a magnifying glass to thinhs. So magnify them and figure out how you can create safety and security for yourself. If she does the work then perhaps she will become more responsible. If she doesn’t you are going to divorce her anyway. You need to find the things that help you to trust yourself. To be solid and whole regardless of what she does. That’s really what I am getting at. It’s not the details of the clothes or whatever, or who took what trip or a box of strawberries. This is about making the bleeding stop.

Should she get herself together, then you can worry about what constructs can be removed and how.

Dr Strangelove, is your volume of posting here helping you? Or could it be subtly hindering you in some way?

I didn't take on the mom role on my end. I didn't control his life. I didn't correct him. I didn't keep tabs on him like you would a child. The only way it affected me was that the sex went from super hot to him turning me down for sex, even blowjobs. He had a wife who loved giving blowjobs, gave excellent blowjobs, and he stopped finding me attractive after we got married. I didn't change. I looked the same. But I got put into a mom box. I was there for home comfort all of a sudden. I don't mind snuggling on the couch but I also need to be put up against the damned wall every so often. I was a sexual being and began being treated like a mom to rebel against. That was the female equivalent of emasculation to me. Ugh. No. I did not enjoy that. He told me he had put me there in his head in some of our post DDay discussions. I found it repulsive.

Is that like the Madonna complex? Where he sees you as the prim and proper wife and loses his desire to do "filthy" things with you in the bedroom--the sexual charge is gone. I can't relate to that, but I know many men and women deal with it--I think my WW deals with it.

On my end though, I certainly fall into the parental role often and especially with my wife. It's going to be a large undertaking to address that for me.

Well at this point you don’t know if you will be separated next week. Why even worry at this point about you will have to support her in her old age?

Again, I do not assert this is the solution, but I am asserting there are always a lot of solutions besides leverage, separation and divorce. I understand that your main goals need to align or why stay married, so this is maybe a bit far fetched but honestly these are the types of solutions you have to think about. Until you find the one that is reasonable.

Probably none of these things bothered you as much before she cheated. Infidelity has a way of putting a magnifying glass to thinhs. So magnify them and figure out how you can create safety and security for yourself. If she does the work then perhaps she will become more responsible. If she doesn’t you are going to divorce her anyway. You need to find the things that help you to trust yourself. To be solid and whole regardless of what she does. That’s really what I am getting at. It’s not the details of the clothes or whatever, or who took what trip or a box of strawberries. This is about making the bleeding stop.

Should she get herself together, then you can worry about what constructs can be removed and how.

Of course. As you pointed out, the bigger part of my financial concerns are me feeling unheard. I talk, she agrees, nothing happens. The money matters of course, but it's likely more about not feeling heard.

And you're right about all of this magnifying post-A. Stuff I tolerated previously now becomes unacceptable through this new lens. Sex was the most obvious one. I think the finances got buried a bit, but it's also a longstanding wound that I learned was much worse than I thought post-DDay.

From my perspective, both are very absurd. She wasn't giving me a fun sex life, but was giving one to AP. She wasn't saving money for us, but she was buying lingerie and hotel rooms for AP. So those two wounds just blew up. She's doing what she can on both to show contrition, but they'll take time to heal regardless.

Dr Strangelove, is your volume of posting here helping you? Or could it be subtly hindering you in some way?

Hard to tell.

Writing often helps me *a lot*. I'll be in a negative frame of mind and I write it all out and it cleanses and clarifies things for me. At some point is it too much? Probably. I took yesterday off and I'm feeling good.

I feel like I'm identifying patterns now. As an example, my WW finished reading a book on love languages and it's all she's wanted to talk about. We were discussing it in-depth last night and I noticed how angry she was becoming. It was interesting to observe. She didn't say anything hurtful and it wasn't a fight, but it was a bit strange. She went to bed and woke up apologizing for her negative tone--and it was the day before her period began, so it was clearly just emotions.

My WW also suggested we do this couples retreat even this weekend with two celebrity psychologists who tour the country. I thought about it, and it seemed positive, but I my gut tells me I need to see more from her first before I do something like that.

So not much new to report. Things are going well--she's been reading about the child-parent dynamic as well and we're largely communicating well and being kind to each other. Hopefully we can do that consistently.

As you pointed out, the bigger part of my financial concerns are me feeling unheard. I talk, she agrees, nothing happens.

You write that she hears, agrees to change, but doesn't. That looks closer to 'betrayed financially' or 'not obeyed' than 'feeling unheard'.

That 1st sentence also may say that a lot of what you think you know about yourself is mistaken. That's true for all of us. The question I'd ask is this: Do your mistakes in your understanding yourself hurt you as you wrestle with emotional, physical, and financial infidelity?

Look, IMO we all have the right to rely on our partners. Sometimes that means taking into account that one's partner is almost always late or almost always exaggerates. But not being reliable might be the signal that the partnership is finished.

I'm not saying it's a signal that you should end your M - but I recommend taking into account your W's financial as well as her emotional/physical infidelity.

Is that like the Madonna complex? Where he sees you as the prim and proper wife and loses his desire to do "filthy" things with you in the bedroom--the sexual charge is gone. I can't relate to that, but I know many men and women deal with it--I think my WW deals with it.

Yes, that was what it was, which really is amusing to me now. The idea that I would be the prim and proper wife is a complete LOL.

Yeah, it's very possible that your WW deals with it. I can't imagine finding a man attractive whom I'd put in a parental role. It's not a sexy role.

I thought about it, and it seemed positive, but I my gut tells me I need to see more from her first before I do something like that.

Progress! You recognized that you aren't ready for this. Neither is she and definitely neither is your marriage. It strikes me as selfish that she thinks this would be a good idea but you could maybe just chalk it up to clueless. I think it would be very painful and triggering to participate in something like this with the way she currently treats you. You need to see her doing what she needs to do without ANY promise of R and participating in this would be like doing the opposite. So kudos for recognizing this and steering clear for your own sake.

That couple's retreat has been talked about on here,over the years.

Listen to your gut. It's way too soon for that. You need to have a remorseful spouse,and are firmly attempting reconciliation. She's not reached remorse, and you've said you're not in R.

my WW finished reading a book on love languages and it's all she's wanted to talk about. We were discussing it in-depth last night and I noticed how angry she was becoming. It was interesting to observe. She didn't say anything hurtful and it wasn't a fight, but it was a bit strange.

What was it about the 5 love languages that was "upsetting"? (If I've got the book right, it's really a good book!) Did one of you object to the information in the book? Was she angry because you haven't been speaking her love languange, and you think it's silly? Any chance she felt like she was losing yet another "fight"? ** trying to understand where the anger was coming from **

Also interesting that you say, "I noticed how angry she was becoming", but also that it "wasn't a fight." Any chance that she wasn't angry at all, but was just passionate about the subject matter? Many people raise their voice and become emphatic when discussing something that is passionate to them. My H is like this. I will say, "don't shout," or "don't get angry," and he will respond, "I'm just passionate!"

Did you ask her if she was angry in that moment?

My WW also suggested we do this couples retreat even this weekend with two celebrity psychologists who tour the country. I thought about it, and it seemed positive, but I my gut tells me I need to see more from her first before I do something like that.

Also trying to understand why you would turn this down if it seemed positive to you? I would think there would have been tons of information to take in and help with decision-making. I understand that you need to see more from her, but how was this suggestion not more from her? She was willing to put herself out there, and get help at a retreat. I think it's possible that she sees this as her losing again (or her Dad telling her no!). Granted, you might not care about the retreat, but I thought it could be worth pointing out given the fact that you want to adjust the parent/child dynamic.

Things like these two examples could be feeding into both the parent/child dynamic and her feeling of never "winning".

You write that she hears, agrees to change, but doesn't. That looks closer to 'betrayed financially' or 'not obeyed' than 'feeling unheard'.

That 1st sentence also may say that a lot of what you think you know about yourself is mistaken. That's true for all of us. The question I'd ask is this: Do your mistakes in your understanding yourself hurt you as you wrestle with emotional, physical, and financial infidelity?

I don't understand what you mean.

But not being reliable might be the signal that the partnership is finished.

I'm not saying it's a signal that you should end your M - but I recommend taking into account your W's financial as well as her emotional/physical infidelity.

Agreed. When I look at what she did as a collective and I look at her behavior post-affair, it's not an issue of her being at fault; it may just be an issue that we have nothing to build together anymore.

I prepared to arrive at that destination.

It strikes me as selfish that she thinks this would be a good idea but you could maybe just chalk it up to clueless. I think it would be very painful and triggering to participate in something like this with the way she currently treats you.

I suspect much of what you've attributed to malice is actually cluelessness. But anytime I talk about how clueless she is, I receive a chorus of posts telling me how smart she is. She's grasping at straws, recognizing that she thinks she's trying as hard as she can and still feels like she's failing.

No wayward figures out everything right away. Not even the most self relfective former waywards we have here on the forum; all needed time and effort. And even if your WW figures it out 100% you would still feel hurt, betrayed etc because it takes time to heal.

On top of this dynamic, you are in some ways, probably, an extra tough BS due to your highly analytical nature. I am not saying that to offend nor change you but it seems that it is an extra layer of difficulty for her figuring her role out. Plus her personality has trouble dealing with that element of yours.

I hope she gets there but she may not. Even more so, I hope you heal fully with time, with or without her as your wife.

What was it about the 5 love languages that was "upsetting"? (If I've got the book right, it's really a good book!) Did one of you object to the information in the book? Was she angry because you haven't been speaking her love languange, and you think it's silly? Any chance she felt like she was losing yet another "fight"? ** trying to understand where the anger was coming from **

I don't recall the exact exchange, but I probably shouldn't have engaged at all--she was explaining something to me and I ended up in the parent/teacher role. I become frustrated at how she examines anything--it's all so surface deep. She was discussing an example from the book about a married couple with different love languages and their love tanks, and I realized quickly she didn't fully grasp the example, so I tried to clarify it for her. It wasn't worth doing though--I need to break that parental role--if she can't comprehend something, I should leave it alone.

And then the longer she talked, it sounded more and more like justification to me--her love tank was low, no wonder she had an affair! She didn't say that--and possibly wasn't even implying it--so again, probably on me. The result was her visibly becoming frustrated by the conversation.

I look back at the other night now and I was being my usual self, rotating between challenging teacher and intellectually curious. It's how I learn and process information. But for her, she doesn't want to examine and apply information in any critical manner--she also didn't have comprehension on the topic to dig into and explore my pressing questions.

Also interesting that you say, "I noticed how angry she was becoming", but also that it "wasn't a fight." Any chance that she wasn't angry at all, but was just passionate about the subject matter? Many people raise their voice and become emphatic when discussing something that is passionate to them. My H is like this. I will say, "don't shout," or "don't get angry," and he will respond, "I'm just passionate!"

Did you ask her if she was angry in that moment?

She was angry and frustrated. And she apologized for it.

Also trying to understand why you would turn this down if it seemed positive to you? I would think there would have been tons of information to take in and help with decision-making. I understand that you need to see more from her, but how was this suggestion not more from her? She was willing to put herself out there, and get help at a retreat. I think it's possible that she sees this as her losing again (or her Dad telling her no!). Granted, you might not care about the retreat, but I thought it could be worth pointing out given the fact that you want to adjust the parent/child dynamic.

The couples retreat suggests we're working together on being better partners. In my mind, it's very clearly something we would do in R or beyond.

Now, she's still the problem in my view. I don't view her as safe and I can't get to R. She's going to have to change that perception I have of her without my help.

Things like these two examples could be feeding into both the parent/child dynamic and her feeling of never "winning".

I agree with you on the former obviously. I don't see it for the latter.