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She does need an ultimatum. Not that she jumps into bed tomorrow providing porn star sex, but rather to come up with a plan with sex therapy or IC work with the goal of establishing a robust sex life. As for AN getting sex that isn’t genuine in the beginning, that’s ok. He at least is getting his needs met after she spent a year and a half getting her needs meet on steroids. What’s fair is fair.

I generally am only arguing against making it an up front ultimatum.

It’s logical that he has this as a wound. It’s logical they both will have to work to heal it. (And healing can come a lot of ways broader than what is being focused on here)

But if she is unwilling to examine the differences in her behavior, then it would make him be the only one left to work on the relationship. By default we would say call it.

When she asks why, it’s easy to state. "You had an affair, you are unwilling to examine behaviors that hurt me the most."

A stated ultimatum is coercion and he will never know if she willingly changed on her own or just wanted to keep a roof over her head.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:58 PM, Sunday, March 19th]

She does need an ultimatum. Not that she jumps into bed tomorrow providing porn star sex, but rather to come up with a plan with sex therapy or IC work with the goal of establishing a robust sex life. As for AN getting sex that isn’t genuine in the beginning, that’s ok. He at least is getting his needs met after she spent a year and a half getting her needs meet on steroids. What’s fair is fair.

Again, there's no justice to be had in R. That's just something people have to accept if they decide to go that route, because there is no coin which pays for the kind of primal pain we suffer in intimate betrayal. If one is not prepared to "write off" the debt at some point, maybe not today, maybe not next year or the year after that, but "at some point", there can be no healing. No amount of porn star sex makes what this WS did okay. NOTHING ever makes it okay. The only thing that makes R worth doing is to find something about that relationship which makes it worth it more valuable to you than holding onto that debt.

I get that you guys are maintaining that a fulfilling sex life goes toward making it "more valuable" and I don't disagree, but in order to be healthy I believe it has to be an authentic manifestation of emotional intimacy. Otherwise, all the pain and doubt lingers because there's no way to know if the WS is in it for love- or security. I'm fascinated that there are people who think there's a way to make the ultimatum of "provide a better sex life or get divorced" without it being perceived as a transaction. If it waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck, for my money.. it's a duck. How can we condemn somebody for seeing a duck?

despite every one pretty much agreeing that the model WW has hurt AN desperately, there seems to be a lot of disagreement about how this should go from here.

Some seem to be more understanding of WW’s poor choices than others. Some have found the WW’s new found attitudes to be unacceptable.

The real issue is what AN needs to heal. He told us his two breakpoints in his first post. When recently discussed with her, she has played the "you men are all alike" card. That brings AN down to ap level and no later apologies will fix that. That is her truth.

The other is the religion card. Also not good.

So it looks like she gets it in some ways but not others. She is floundering about, now contrite, now lashing back. She desperately wants R. Why? Does she want her old life back? Looks like she is there, except for a few recent uncomfortable conversations. But that’s not gonna get it for AN.

I don’t think the red lines WW crossed are fixable given the current state of things. Some are urging D.

I suggest a middle path in a trial separation. I think AN needs to be away from the source of his misery in order to be in a place for real soul searching. The current regime isn’t working. I’m not sure AN even has a clear idea what he might want, much less what he should do.

Many have gotten over much worse and reached R. But AN is not ready. I think a break from each other is a good idea.

It is certainly possible that they can find away. Maybe the red lines will blur. Maybe not. But living in a tension laced home that is Gothic like is not the way

hikingout: but there are examples, abliet few, where waywards left their spouses for their AP. In far fewer cases, their settled life with AP actually worked.

Do you think even in these rare cases affair wasn't also about AP?

I am totally not denying that affairs are not about the selfish person who commits it. I am not saying it all about Ap or sex or both. All I am saying is in few exceptional cases its ALSO about sex. If not during the first time they had sex then definitely during the second time, third time.... there are women who openly claimed,"I am not emotionally into my AP but the sex is great and thats enough for me".
I am just saying there could be exceptions to your claims. But, I agree with you on everything you have said so far regarding OPs and his wife's situation.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 12:45 AM, Monday, March 20th]

I generally am only arguing against making it an up front ultimatum

.

. I'm fascinated that there are people who think there's a way to make the ultimatum of "provide a better sex life or get divorced" without it being perceived as a transaction. If it waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck, for my money.. it's a duck. How can we condemn somebody for seeing a duck?

Of course in a perfect world you wouldn’t need an ultimatum. But often ultimatums need to be given. Get to work on time or you will get fired. If you don’t stop drinking I’m going to divorce you. The list goes on. The problem here is she needs the ultimatum to begin with. My EX told me she would do anything to save our marriage. I didn’t need an ultimatum. He shouldn’t either. But in this case it has to be done

In the beginning it might be transactional. What’s wrong with that? She cheated for a year and a half. She provided her AP with the sex she never would with AN and to exacerbate sounds like she withheld sex to him on command from her AP. For her to work on their sex life isn’t much of an ask. Pretty mild if you ask me

No debt in infidelity should be wiped clean completely. You want to do enough to establish a loving relationship , but if your WS used a burner phone to conduct the affair, should they be allowed to go to Best Buy and buy another secret phone? If it was with the softball coach should they still be allowed to travel to away games together? If he was screwing his personal trainer should he continue to train with her.

Even debts that are forgiven are not forgotten. If she continues down this path he will never forget how badly he was screwed. She needs to try to wipe away the horrible humiliation she has trust upon him. What she is doing will only make it worse

[This message edited by waitedwaytoolong at 12:44 AM, Monday, March 20th]

Of course in a perfect world you wouldn’t need an ultimatum. But often ultimatums need to be given. Get to work on time or you will get fired. If you don’t stop drinking I’m going to divorce you. The list goes on. The problem here is she needs the ultimatum to begin with. My EX told me she would do anything to save our marriage. I didn’t need an ultimatum. He shouldn’t either. But in this case it has to be done

If she was not his wife but his affair partner then this ultimatum would have worked. I definitely don't think even you would have been okay with your wife agreeing to do anything and everything only because you gave her an ultimatum.

Do you really believe giving an ultimatum to an alcoholic or a drug addict or a lazy employer will work? They will fake it for few days and then they will go back to their old habits pretty soon. OP doesn't want a faker. He wants his wife to be authentic and willing. You definitely cannot get that through ultimatum. This is not 'fake it until you make it' situation.

I get that you guys are maintaining that a fulfilling sex life goes toward making it "more valuable" and I don't disagree, but in order to be healthy I believe it has to be an authentic manifestation of emotional intimacy. Otherwise, all the pain and doubt lingers because there's no way to know if the WS is in it for love- or security.

I'm in agreement with you on this point. I think an ultimatum simple expands a "lose/lose" scenario into a "lose/lose/lose" scenario. One of mantras here on SI is that the BS cannot control the WS; even more, it's an exercise in futility to attempt doing so. The BS also cannot control the outcome; therefore, attempting gambits to manipulate the outcome, that's just dumb. The BS can only control the BS.

Under the unique facts that we know about Mrs. AN -- her actions and her statements post Dday -- there is zero hope of a fulfilling, authentic sexual relationship in this marriage. None. That leaves AN facing the Sisyphean prospect (if he remains married) of "getting over" the most hurtful thing a wife can do to a husband in terms of sexual cheating, while at the same time enjoying no reinvented/reconstructed fulfilling intimacy with his wife who has remade herself in the wake of her cheating. Why doesn't he just go out into the desert and shove hot rocks up his own butt for good measure. Actually, that might be slightly more pleasurable than the life he will have at home.

In the beginning it might be transactional. What’s wrong with that?

That's not something that can ever be walked back. What you're talking about is more intimate than that. Sex can be fulfilling, and moving, and all kinds of wonderful... but it can also be a violation, a chore, a resentment. If sex weren't a big deal, intimate betrayal wouldn't be such a bitch to heal from.

Tell me, how does one make that "deal" and then, sometime down the road, convince their mate that they are loved and desired as a person and not as a masturbatory tool? How do you say to a woman, give me sex or leave and then convince her later that it wasn't about sex? A WW is still a woman. She might be remorseful, unremorseful, troubled, confused, disordered, or outright evil, but a woman nonetheless. If you objectify her FOR ANY REASON, she is objectified, and that objectification becomes part of her history.

I do see sexual incompatibility or mismatched libidos as a genuine marital problem. But when we try to connect it as an infidelity problem, I think we're putting the cart before the horse. Is there even a marriage to save here? Is there enough love left, enough companionship? Is the cheating itself more than what the BS wants to deal with? Are her values ever going to be compatible with his? Do they still like each other? Where's the usual advice of IC first and then tackle the marital problems? Why get into a protracted sex therapy program if the OP isn't pretty well convinced that he still wants this person as his wife? Hell, he can hire somebody for sex if it's just about sex. Why would anyone put themselves through the challenge of R if they weren't pretty darned sure they want to be there?

Honestly, the cynic in me thinks she knows he will likely acquiesce to her terms or on some level she is otherwise ok with D.

Under the unique facts that we know about Mrs. AN -- her actions and her statements post Dday -- there is zero hope of a fulfilling, authentic sexual relationship in this marriage. None.

We absolutely do NOT know that. No one's got a crystal ball here and can see into the future or into this WW's mind. Certainly, the emotional intimacy which might allow for progress on that front hasn't happened yet. Maybe it never will, but we don't know that either.

If she was not his wife but his affair partner then this ultimatum would have worked. I definitely don't think even you would have been okay with your wife agreeing to do anything and everything only because you gave her an ultimatum.

My point was I didn’t have to give an ultimatum. She wanted the marriage badly to do just about anything. You are right. I wouldn’t have made her do anything and everything, but that’s not what we are talking about in AN’s case. Just a normal sex life

Do you really believe giving an ultimatum to an alcoholic or a drug addict or a lazy employer will work? They will fake it for few days and then they will go back to their old habits pretty soon. OP doesn't want a faker. He wants his wife to be authentic and willing. You definitely cannot get that through ultimatum. This is not 'fake it until you make it' situation.

I actually do in some cases. I had workers that were not lazy, but actually great workers. I told them it wasn’t fair that they didn’t get in in time when everyone else did. I also worked with them if it wasn’t feasible due to child care and we worked on solutions so the other workers didn’t feel slighted. But they didn’t get a free pass. Most complied but weren’t perfect, but they were better. I was also on the record that if they got fired they had ample warning to improve.

As for alcoholics and drug users yes I can. I had a good friend whose wife said if you don’t go to AA tomorrow I am divorcing you. He is 30 years sober.

The bottom line is even If they don’t comply at least you give them a say in in their future which is more than AN got here.

It interest that OP is basically doing what many of you are advising but yet here he is. She has suffered no consequences yet people are asking him yo give more.

She is not the victim yet gets so much support.

CT, we obviously are on opposite sides of this. My feeling is she screwed him royally and if she has to do some things that she might be uncomfortable with to save the marriage then she should it. I know you think the slate should be wiped clean and AN should nurture her until she at some point in time might, maybe, perhaps, possibly will consider expanding her beliefs that take into account her husbands feeling and organically realize that she should provide him with the same sex that probably 85% of the country enjoys.

Edit to take out over the top comment

[This message edited by waitedwaytoolong at 1:46 AM, Monday, March 20th]

My point was I didn’t have to give an ultimatum. She wanted the marriage badly to do just about My point was I didn’t have to give an ultimatum.

Honestly that’s the only way this reconciliation is going to work. If he tells her what he has shared with us, and she is unwilling to examine that. Assess the damage that she did, then there isn’t a reconciliation to be had.

He can make the boundary within himself, and divorce later. But then the reason isn’t the lack of blow jobs, the reason is now she has wasn’t remorseful enough to sit with this with him and figure out her behavior.

Coercion actually kills sexual desire and I would never recommend it. He might get what he wants but she has to self abandon to provide it. She will not heal under those circumstances. A healed partner is the only assurance of having a safe partner moving forward.

Hiking out, not to beat a dead horse, but if she asks him, which is likely, "what happens if I can’t do the things you want me to" and he answers I will divorce you, is that an ultimatum?

...My feeling is she screwed him royally and if she has to do some things that she might be uncomfortable with to save the marriage then she should it. I know you think the slate should be wiped clean and AN should nurture her until she at some point in time might, maybe, perhaps, possibly will consider expanding her beliefs that take into account her husbands feeling and organically realize that she should provide him with the same sex that probably 85% of the country enjoys.

I think you misunderstand my comment on "writing off the debt". We can't hold onto a grudge and make R work, not in such a way as to result in real satisfaction anyway. We can limp along and have appreciation for the things we still have, financial stability, shared grandkids, stuff like that. But to be emotionally satisfied and content with our choice, yeah.. you can't go forward always feeling like you need to keep punishing your mate. We can't punish one half of a whole. If it's a crime and punishment issue, there's an app for that... divorce. And that's a 100% legitimate response which a whole lot of people choose, yourself among them. If it's about R though, we do have to find a way to return equality to the relationship. R is a process. You don't start off with the end result.

Maybe the problem is the "she should provide" component. Isn't the goal here TWO people finding mutual satisfaction within a relationship together? If it's about women gatekeeping sex acts, there are apps for that too.

Hiking out, not to beat a dead horse, but if she asks him, which is likely, "what happens if I can’t do the things you want me to" and he answers I will divorce you, is that an ultimatum?

You and I see the conversation differently. It’s not "hey you did all this for him, you need to do xyz for me"

It’s a similiar conversation any bs has at some point during reconciliation. "This is my biggest wound, it makes me feel that you do like doing these things but not with me. What I need from you is to figure out more deeply why this happened. I also would like you to explore this limitation you put in our marriage that keeps us from being able to explore together. If we are to repair this marriage I feel that I need far more effort from you to figure this stuff out. I need us to work on growing our physical intimacy. Will you go to a sex therapist and see if you can reconcile this further for yourself? I may join you as needed"

If she asks if the marriage is over if she says no to that, it’s saying “I am not willing to examine this or work in it.” As you have said your ex would have done backbends. As did I. If she doesn’t want to work on herself or the relationship that’s on her, but why would you want to reconcile with someone like that?

Take into consideration that this would have been acceptable for him to have said before she cheated. At any point in time, it’s okay to say I am not satisfied with this aspect of the marriage, can we work on it?

What you don’t want to do is say “it’s blowjobs or the highway. You just have to do it until you finally like doing it.”That’s pretty empty and I doubt appealing to either of them.

The actual sex has to be organic and collaborative at all times. This all needs to be her own free will or it will never mean anything to either of them. And also will be temporary change rather than long lasting.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:36 AM, Monday, March 20th]

That's what I want the most - for her to demonstrates that she WANTS to reconnect with me, that she is willing to reset, and explore what our sex life looks like post affair. Not just keep our sex life is in a nice little box, easily defined, static and unchanging, where she is the prim chaste wife acting as gatekeeper.

I think the crux of your issue is that you want your WW to want you. To chase you like she did her AP. For her to be open to exploring things with you (not sex alone).

The sex thing is a component of this whole thing called marriage. It is as important (or not) in a M, as long as both parties are in agreement. In your case, you seem to be feeling that there is an imbalance in your M, that your WW is making unilateral decision in the bedroom that you have no say in.

It is up to you if you want to continue to preserve the status quo or not. What you can or cannot accept is up to you, as everyone has different boundaries for dealbreakers.

Ultimately, you will have to do what is best for you. If your WW decides she wants to follow you, she will follow, if not, you just keep walking on the path that is best for YOU.

CT:

We absolutely do NOT know that. No one's got a crystal ball here and can see into the future or into this WW's mind. Certainly, the emotional intimacy which might allow for progress on that front hasn't happened yet. Maybe it never will, but we don't know that either.

True, nobody's got a crystal ball. But, unlike a cheating wife who, per HO, is incapable of thinking or behaving rationally because "it's the neurotic talking, not me" (which, for the record, I still don't buy completely (or, rather, I don't believe that a cheating spouse is essentially a wasp infected with some type of zombie wasp venom that makes them incapable of of sentient action), and besides I think it's irrelevant), we have Mr. AN, who is capable of behaving rationally.

In a rational world, you make your high odds play versus your low odds play, based on your desired outcome.

Mr. AN's desired outcome is a normal, healthy, joyous sex life with a woman who is open to exploring married sexuality with him. Mrs. AN has stated flatly that this is completely off the table. She has held firm to this position, even resorting to sarcasm and angry gaslighting to underscore her position. Even playing the religion card. If Mrs. AN has made one point crystal clear, this is it.

CT says: "If you play the pick-me dance really, really convincingly, and keep doing it indefinitely despite the fact that, at present, there is no light at the end of the tunnel, maybe she'll change her mind some day. Nobody has a crystal ball." That, friends, is the definition of a low-odds play. Or simple lunacy. It is said here, "When your cheating spouse shows you who she is, believe her."

By far, Mr. AN's high odds play here is to find a love who has normal, healthy attitudes around sex. I think we all agree that Mrs. AN is, at present, not that person. To the contrary, she is a person whose relationship with her sexuality is, at best, profoundly dysfunctional. Not only is her personality unsuited to meeting Mr. AN's legitimate desired outcome, at present her reasoned position on the matter (stated IRT, when it's Mrs. AN talking, not the neurotic) is to flatly refuse to engage in any process that might move the couple in that direction.

Therefore, a logical actor would move on from the marriage for an opportunity to find a new love.

I'd add this. The couple has teenage kids. For most couples who procreate in their 20's or early 30's, that puts Mr. AN around 40-45 or so, plus or minus. Still plenty of good life left to life. Still 30 or 40 good fuckin' years left in Sir Topham Hat. We talk often here about the sunk cost fallacy. What I think Mr. AN should focus on is the "sinking future cost into a belligerent dead end" fallacy.

Being a man, ahem, of a certain age myself, I've had the opportunity to see IRT what the dating/sex world is like out there for middle aged men who are solvent, reasonably attractive, and can function normally in the bedroom, and it is a buyer's market from what I can see. By far, Mr. AN's high odds play is to tell Mrs. AN: "Wife, I love you. In the past, I accepted a straight-jacketed, synthetically restricted sex life as simply part of who you are. Your affair shattered me as a man, but it also shattered my personal paradigm in terms of what restrictions I'm willing to endure. This tightly wrung simulacrum of sex that you belligerently attempt to impose upon me is not one of those things. Therefore, I'm leaving the marriage. The AP will soon be single. You are free to pursue him, since you so obviously prefer him as a man, or, if he's not interested, you can pursue some other man. I no longer care at this point. You are also free to seek me out if you wish, but be aware in advance that I will not return to the sex life we currently have. That is not a possibility for us, ever. In the meantime, I will not wait for you to figure out something new."

HO:

What you don’t want to do is say “it’s blowjobs or the highway. You just have to do it until you finally like doing it.”That’s pretty empty and I doubt appealing to either of them.

I think many here will recall the cake metaphor I have used. A husband dearly loves home-baked, from-scratch cakes. But his wife has made it clear that she does not enjoy baking. As a loving husband, he doesn't press the issue and learns to live a life without home-baked cakes. He resigns himself to the occasional small slice of stale, bland, commercial bakery cake his wife serves him once in a while.

Then, while reviewing the family finances, he starts notice a bunch of charges for flour, sugar, butter, cocoa, vanilla. "Hmmm". He asks his wife about it, but she deflects, telling him they were just incidentals, plus some staples she bought for a food shelf. Then he notices her coming home smelling like vanilla and butter. He also notices that she stops offering him cake of any sort, even the store-bought. No cake, at all. Hmmm.

Unknown to the BH, she has been involved with another man, a mutual friend. For nearly two years, his wife and this other man have been engaged in a torrid string of texting, chatting, etc., all of which is centered around baking cakes. They swap recipes. They watch the Great British Bake-Off and chortle about the cakes they could bake in the same settings. And whenever they get an opportunity to sneak around behind their spouses' backs, they get together and bake cakes. Every manner of wildly imaginative cake he can dream up, she learns about and takes a stab at baking for him. She gets delight every time he praises her for one of her new, even more imaginative cakes. It's a cake frenzy.

The cake affair includes humiliating and belittling the unwitting BH. There are even days where she prevents the BH from having a slice of the stale, bland commercial cake she rations at home, because the CP enjoys secretly humiliating the BH by eating her homemade cake as she denies him even a taste of the bland stuff at home. She gleefully and enthusiastically joins in this, chortling conspiratorially with the CP after each such caper.

Then, the cake-eating is cut off by covid and Oz's rigid lockdown policy. The WW falls into a depression because she can no longer hook up with her CP (Cake Partner) and spend time together baking cakes. She has steadfastly told her BH that she does not like baking cakes, so she sticks with that at home, all while pining to get back with the CP so she can bake more cakes for him. By the way, she doesn't dream in the abstract about baking cakes for any man. It couldn't be anybody. It is specifically CP whom she wants to bake for.

Eventually, the CP's wife figures out what the two have been up to and starts rattling the saber. The WW works with her therapist to plan out how she will disclose this to her BH and thereafter manage his justifiable rage, humiliation, and emasculation after finding out what his WW has been up to with another man.

Edited later: To clarify, the low-odds play here by the BH is to demand the same sex the AP got. That's a lose/lose proposition. R only works if the WW drives it by voluntarily figuring this out.

At that point, if I'm the wayward and if I genuinely desire an opportunity to R with my BH, my high-odds play is to voluntarily figure out what my BH desires, without being asked, and voluntarily, of my own volition and free will, driven solely by my love for my BH and my desire to preserve my marriage, get my ass into the kitchen at home and start baking cakes at a frenetic pace. I bake every kind of cake the imagination can think of. I double down on studying recipes, techniques both traditional and nouvelle. I put every ounce of my being into not only making the best cakes my BH has ever seen or thought about, but also into making it clear to him that I am grateful for the opportunity to bake amazing cakes for him every day, for the rest of my life, because I value him as a man and a husband and nothing brings me more personal happiness at a deeply profound level than sating his appetite for cakes. I will even let him indulge in the tres leches whenever he wishes. I will continue to bake cakes until his dentures fail and he can no longer chew, after which I'll serve him cake milkshakes until one of us is dead. If I'm lucky, he will believe that I am sincere in this effort, that my desire for him is true, and that my prior "no cakes ever" stance was the result of rigid stuff left over from my FOO or some other similar psychobabble.

As to the fact that my inner cake baker was awakened by another man, as CT points out, to R, my BH will have to find it in his heart to simply live with that reality. It's reality, but it's in the past. No taking it back. Hopefully, the joy he feels at having a newly reinvented wife who gratefully invests every ounce of energy into making the marriage a home-baked cake paradise because she appreciates the BH as a man will be enough to overcome the emasculation and humiliation he naturally endures as a result of the cake affair with the CP. In the end, the marriage is better than it was before and, although it's unfortunate it had to be catalyzed by a terrible interlude, they live happily ever after.

I think WWTL's point is that, in some manner, Mr. AN ought to at least communicate to Mrs. AN that, if she wishes an opportunity to R, that is her path. I understand WWTL's point, but as I said before, just the act of communicating this turns the path into a lose/lose/lose scenario. I've not seen anything posted here suggesting that Mrs. AN is a dullard. And we know that she knows how to please a man sexually in a manner that keeps his attention. She can put two and two together. In fact, in my opinion, she has done this, but in her calculus, the marriage and her BH isn't worth the effort. She has said "nope" as plainly and as unequivocally as a woman can say it. It brings to mind that great line by William S. Burroughs: "Salt Chunk Mary could say 'no' faster than any other woman I know. And none of her 'nos' EVER meant 'yes'."

My strongest possible advice to AN: "She has said "no". Believe her. Move on. There is zero possibility of successful R here."

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:18 PM, Monday, March 20th]

BFTG... This^^^^^^

You have summed everything up very well, as these are also my thoughts. You have now awakened my sweet tooth and I think I will have some cake for breakfast .