SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

But simplifying this complex situation into "she wanted him, she didn't want you" dismisses 100% of the research on the subject.

Only a skosh. What you are saying is that sexual desire in women is circumstantial. It is also circumstantial in men, but probably less so.

I do think you can fairly sum up AN's paradox as: "She wanted the AP sexually in the circumstance and setting of her A. Based on what she is telling you, there is no circumstance nor setting in which she will ever want you sexually in that way."

That second bit is AN's main issue. There is no ray of hope, not even a sliver of faint light, if you take at face value what she is telling him.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 7:44 PM, Sunday, March 19th]

If that's the case, RB, and her agenda is to manipulate both her husband and her religion in order to protect her frigidity, that's a distinct problem on its own. I find it a very unlikely scenario though. OIN is correct when she tells us that female sexuality is complex. We run on one-twentieth of the testosterone that informs the male drive. In the face of that kind of complexity, I find it difficult to believe that her entire agenda at this point is depriving her husband of sex.

Hi, AspectNorth. I’m a member who’s not on here much but I’ve read through this whole thread and just have some thoughts.

First, I’m truly sorry you’re here because of your wife’s betrayals. Your feeling of being blindsided is so relatable and that aspect of affairs is really tough to get over, on top of all the rest of the pain that comes with infidelity.

I noticed on page 2 of this thread you mentioned you were her first/only until her affair. In my personal experience, this added an extra element of difficulty to processing and recovering from infidelity. My exwh was the cheater in our situation (DDay in 2014, divorced in 2015), and we had been each others’ first/only (as far as I know ) when we married. We met when I was in HS and he was a year older, and I had only been with him the entire 18 years of our dating and marriage history. So when I discovered he was cheating with a coworker, the added pain of him giving away something I thought was ‘special’ because we’d only shared it with each other was almost too much to bear. Have you found this to be part of the struggle in your case as well? I believe you said that you’d had sex before her, but knowing she saved that for your relationship bc it was so meaningful to her and then turned around and tarnished that with her affair adds an extra element of pain IMO.

Do you think that could be somewhat tied to your feelings about the sex they had? It’s awful enough when we expect someone to be sexually faithful and they are not, but when your sex life is built on the premise that you’re their one and only and that is part of what makes it special? So much salt in the wound.

My exhusband and I had a very active sex life - after 18 years we averaged 3-5 times a week. It wasn’t particularly wild or adventurous but very few things were off the table. That said, after I discovered the A, I also discovered a receipt for toys that showed me that he and his AP were definitely getting into things he and I had not. None of the things he did with her were a hard no from me, btw. He just never expressed interest in them (mostly- ahem - butt play of many varieties). BUT I was really willing to try almost anything once if he asked and he knew that - so him not even giving me the option and then doing those things with an AP actually killed a little piece of me. I can only imagine how much worse that pain would be if I were in your shoes and he denied something I wanted that would bring me pleasure but gave it to her. It was really painful for me to discover partly bc he was careless enough to not hide the evidence and partly bc he was opening up sexually to another woman in a way he hadn’t explored with me. I’m here to tell you, feeling extra hurt about that aspect is normal. Rather than us working through that in therapy or in any productive way, he then decided since I was mad about it, he would just try inserting (punny) some of that activity into our sex life during false R. Yeah - that didn’t go well in SO many ways, and actually really traumatized me.

Possible trigger warning for this paragraph and the next: My ex told me at one point in false R that he ‘had’ to try exploring new things with an AP bc we had a routine and he didn’t feel I was open to exploring sexually. Listen, his ‘needing’ to have an A was BS - obviously - but the dude has the reasoning skills of a zygote so what else is new? Ironic, given I had never said no to trying anything and I thought our sex life was special bc we’d only been with each other (allegedly - I’m now pretty certain the A I know of was not his first). But the truth was he prioritized his pleasure over everything and when we had talked about things like fantasies and sexual wish lists, he turned my vulnerable admissions to him against me. I’m not suggesting that’s what happened with you two - but rather maybe in her mind she worried it’s what WOULD happen bc of her conditioning around sex and her religious beliefs. That’s on her, btw, to dissect and to work with you (if you choose to stay for that work) to resolve.

Indeed, once I divorced and entered the cess - er DATING - pool, I discovered that in situations with new people where I had nothing sunk into the relationship, I was able to be a lot more adventurous than I had been in my marriage. Was it because I trusted or was sexually attracted to those people more than my ex? Nah. It was bc I didn’t give a damn what they thought of me or if they judged my preferences bc I had nothing sunk into the relationships like I had in my marriage. I understand the pain of knowing your spouse not only gave someone else what was supposed to be exclusively for you, but also gave someone else more and different and seemingly enjoyed doing so. And I can also see why A sex seems to color outside the lines of marital sex sometimes. If I’m being honest, my views on sex were really stunted and immature when I was married, and I had a lot of judgment about things like casual sex before my divorce. I suspect your wife’s views on sex are probably also unhealthy and stunted in many ways. She may be worried about you, her husband, judging her while she may not have cared if her AP did bc she could walk away from that and use the excuse that it wasn’t really her acting that way, as she has done. The rub is that this judgment she seems to have feared was all in her own head bc it’s clear you wouldn’t have done that, and THAT seems to be where the issue is for her. You’re being given different access to her sexual side bc of her own fears and not your words or behavior and that’s where she really needs to do a lot of work.

Please note I am NOT excusing her actions or giving her a pass. Nothing and I mean NOTHING excuses an affair. Indeed, the position she’s left you in is horrible and she was selfish and cruel. The way you feel about it is justified. Nothing makes it OK that your wife and my exWH explored things with their APs that they wouldn’t with us, by any means. There is no excuse that makes what she did right, at all. I am in a long term relationship now and it’s based on honesty and vulnerability and there’s nothing off the table when it comes to discussing what we want and need sexually or otherwise. My exWH and your wife have a thing in common - they took the easy and deceptive way out instead of facing the sex issues as a team with their spouse. The result is that she hurt you deeply and in a way you may never be able to move forward from, and that is 100% on her.

I think your wife has the opportunity to change the narrative and you seem very patient and understanding and willing to try to work with her, despite that fact she’s the one who was unfaithful. She should be BEGGING for the opportunity to try to improve things, and instead she’s callously trying to victimize herself with her "You would divorce over a BJ?" gaslighting bs.

The real question for you is: is that enough? Let’s say she says ok to sex therapy and is willing to open up and explore more - what you have to decide for yourself is whether that is enough for you. When my exwh tried to incorporate more variety into our sex life post DDay - and things he had experienced with his AP - it blew up in his face and made things worse. Granted, a big part of the reason why it blew up is bc rather than seeking help for how to change that dynamic in a healthy way he just - went for it without discussion . But even if we had gone to therapy for help with our sex life, I don’t think I would have ever moved past the hurt and betrayal honestly. Add that to the list of reasons I divorced him. YMMV, and maybe for you two there’s space for working on it and healing and having a better sex life and marriage. Maybe not. You and only you get to decide how you feel about that right now.

I realize none of what I’ve posted is advice, but I felt compelled to share because I can relate to much of what you’re feeling. Whatever direction you go next, you will be ok. There are people here who have R’d successfully and people like me who divorce and move on with life happily. At this point, 7 years out, my exwh’s A doesn’t hurt me anymore. I see it for what it was - a symptom of how broken he is as a human. In my case, I didn’t see a future where he would do the work to heal those broken places in himself. I was right about that too - he’s cheated in every relationship since me and is a hot mess. It seems like you’re not in a rush to leave your wife and have some hope, and I hope for your sake and hers that she will do the work to heal, and also help heal your pain caused by her. You have the gift of time to figure out what you need to be happy. In your shoes, I think I would pause MC for a bit and spend some time with your respective ICs. Focus on you and what you feel and what you need, and the answers will come. Hang in there, AN.

Hellfire- I was having fun until O wasn’t. I absolutely traumatized myself in having an affair. I don’t want to thread Jack but goodness I have talked to so many women who felt the same way. It’s not the same kind of trauma of being a blindsided bs but it exists.

The humiliation and shame I felt in the aftermath was enough for suicide. Self traumatizing is a thing.

Just curious. For all those who thinking pushing her into exploring things sexually is too transactional, what should he do? Especially if she refuses to enter with AN into sex therapy.

Should he live the rest of his life without the intimacy he wants, especially knowing she gave acts that he wants to someone outside the marriage repeatedly? Are you suggesting divorce?

I think it’s an acceptable dealbreaker personally. Any affair is. What AN last said about needing her to want to try and address the issue would go along way with him.

The issue is unsurmountable if both think it is. That’s all there is to it. And honestly, I understand why it would be. But they have to come to terms with that and it’s not going to be tomorrow when that happens.

But saying blowjobs or divorce isn’t the path to reconciliation if he wants it. If he wants to keep exploring it, this will require patience. It will require giving her time to address the issue, understand it more for herself.

I would instead, have him articulate just what he did in his last post and put it in her to figure it out. It’s not unreasonable to ask her to explore the idea she is both of these people. She is to some degree.

Agreeing with her husband to do that changes their norm forever. The AP didn’t have that aspect to the situation. In an escapist fantasy it doesn’t have long term commitment, you aren’t thinking about tomorrow.

I don’t think she is consciously denying it to herself. I think it’s unconscious. And truth is she probably looks at that time with the ap with shame and that is causing her to not move forward. To her she is sentencing herself to more shame in agreeing. This is something IC would be advising her against because it goes against her own personal recovery.

It’s hard to balance personal recovery versus relationship recovery at times it’s hard to know how not to self abandon in the process. The fact she isn’t tells me there is some healthy stuff in there that’s getting in the way of revaluations the unhealthy stuff.

I disagree with the premise she is consciously holding herself back from something she enjoys. Or that it speaks to attraction. Likely the ap was better at manipulative tactics and that’s the difference.

I think the affair was an exercise in being someone she wasn’t and hasn’t come to terms with this other person is part of who she is. I think she can learn that in therapy.

Most AP’s are bottom of the barrel people who were available. This ap spent 7 months getting inside of her head (with her permission) it’s not like she decided one day to start all this. If she was so hardcore attracted to him and just wanted unbridled sex this would have happened immediately. Instead she spent a long time descending into this other character she was playing.

The OP has a right to feel the way he feels, if I were him it would be the same way. But for sure they need to go about this under a professional’s care. And if he wants to continue R patience on this is going to have to happen in order for there to be time for her to see it. Divorce is an option at any time and I do t think any of us is saying it isn’t.

But minus being ready to pull that trigger then they have to navigate this impasse. She should see the sex therapist on her for a bit. And again, they need a whole different MC, one that maybe AN pucks so he can feel they are on an even playing field.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:47 PM, Sunday, March 19th]

Did your girlfriend say, "go see Banshees of Inisherin with me or I'm dumping you"? I think you're confusing compromise with transaction. Compromises aren't ultimatums. They're about finding middle ground.

This is exactly my point, because we compromise it doesn’t get to the point of an ultimatum. I guarantee that if I refused to see any of her movies I would get an ultimatum that I’m not going to one of your movies if you refuse to go to any movie I like. It woukd be justified. AN is willing to compromise here. He isn’t asking for everything that her lover got, just some of the things that he wants for a full filling sex life.

She got to have a highly sexual and emotional affair for a year and a half. He got turned down for sex by her at the request of her AP. Now she wants to pretend this was all a bad dream and we should just forget about it and go back to the way things were. Where is the compromise here???

Why would the OP agree to a deal that you, yourself, rejected as not emotionally satisfying enough to devote your life to?

We don’t know his whole story. Did his wife fuck her AP repeatedly in the marital bed. Did he perform oral sex on her hours after her AP dumped a load in her. Did she set up a meeting so her AP could ask for over a hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund his business and tie them together for years?

I didn’t just reject the deal for the sex she gave him, I rejected her. I’m also not proud of my actions either. She like AN’s WW turned into something she wasn’t. I knew her for over 25 years. She was the most compassionate person I ever met. Even after she was the same compassionate person. The weeks she did this was like a psychotic break. But I’m a take no prisoner guy. Fuck me and I fuck you back 10 times harder. That was the conundrum I was in with her was I still clearly loved her, but I couldn’t live with myself getting fucked over. So I turned into a cold person. It was awful for both of us. I did the compassionate thing by getting divorced even though it didn’t work out that way for her.

AN isn’t me. He clearly is looking for a way to figure out how to stay together and have a fulfilling relationship. Your solution of hoping she somehow will organically transform into someone who is open to explore what he wants isn’t a plan. Like I said it’s the kind of plan that people who buy lottery tickets to fund their retirement.

ADryHeat: Your post was really helpful, at least to me. Now I understand what ChamomileTea, hiking out, and others were trying to tell. Thanks for that wonderful post

The more I ponder the "keep doing what you're doing, crossing your fingers and hoping that one day you might get something more than what you're getting" advice, the more insane it sounds. Some would actually describe it as the definition of insanity.

When you have successfully reconciled with someone let us know.

Not one person is asking him to stay married if he doesn’t want to.

This whole being inspired by the AP is 98 percent of the time not true.

Look, I have been a ws, I live with one, I have spent 18 months in therapy as the ws and another 8 as a bs. I have read every book I could find that helped me figure myself out. There are themes with affairs that could be its own playbook.

An affair is a self adulation thing. It’s not the AP, it’s not the spouse. It’s the ws and thier concerns only. Even someone looking for straight sex is seeking a validation they think they can’t get from their spouse.

I think there is a possibility she does like things less vanilla but fears it as a long term situation. She has this so compartmentalized it’s not funny. Dry heat explains it well.

I do not think he should live with it. But if he wants to stay married, I don’t think she is purposely doing this. She has to inbox it, examine it, and knowing that every single step here will take time is not the same thing as telling him to cross his fingers.

I personally think she is the one who needs to start the sex therapy on her own to explore this. Without the willingness to try and figure it out, then I agree, divorce. You can’t fix this with someone who won’t fix it. But if she is willing to say “yes this doesn’t make sense let me gain clarity”

This bullshit about the ap having something AN doesn’t is bullshit and unhelpful. Take a poll, you will find the AP is a far lesser person almost always. My husbands AP for example is hideous. He still found a way to fuck her many times a week. Am I supposed to believe that’s what he really wanted in a person?

I generally think some of you feel this is insurmountable and you don’t want for him to waste his time. But what if it is? What if they can overcome this and have a marriage that is highly satisfying as a result?

What if that’s deep down what he wants but instead you guys just keep saying she doesn’t want you like that because you are not worthy in her eyes? Can you not see you are helping emasculation at that point? Because you don’t believe his masculinity belongs to him until he divorced. You fail to see the wound will be there regardless.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:18 PM, Sunday, March 19th]

Hiking..my point in bringing you up wasn't to say you didn't have trauma. It was pointing out that not all WS do the work you have done,and were traumatized by what they had done..which you clearly were. Many ws are not traumatized by their actions, they're "traumatized" by having to deal with BS wanting the truth,transparency, NC, accountability, etc. Which,IMO, isn't really trauma.

Also, respectfully(And I do mean respectfully), you may have spoken with several ww's who were dealing with trauma. But you haven't spoke to every WW. A look at other infidelity forums that support cheating,how to hide it,etc, and very few of those women seem to feel traumatized by anything other than having a husband, or an OBS, getting in the way of their fun.

The inspiration of an affair is a self adulation thing. It’s not the AP, it’s not the spouse. It’s the ws and their concerns only.

This is why I think there is a possibility she does like things less vanilla but fears it as a long term situation. She has this so compartmentalized it’s not funny.

I do not think he should live with it. But if he wants to stay married, I don’t think she is purposely doing this. She has to inbox it, and knowing that every single step here will take time is not the same thing as telling him to cross his fingers.

I personally think she is the one who needs to start the sex therapy in her own to explore this. Without the willingness to try and forgive it out, then I agree, divorce. You can’t fix this with someone who won’t fix it.

This bullshit about the ap having something AN doesn’t is bullshit and unhelpful

I have not stated anything along the lines of "the AP has some special male sexual mojo" or anything like that, and I completely agree with the concept that the freaky A sex is a product of the circumstances and neuroses that led to the decision to cheat. No argument from me.

What I also said is that those sort of distinctions don't matter in this specific case, where the WW is investing zero energy into making herself into somebody new, or into re-vivifying the marital sex life. To the contrary, the WW has expressly and vehemently told AN that there are no circumstances under which she would agree to expanded sexual repertoire with him (and, to underscore the point, she has justified that position with her religion).

She is in fact purposely doing this. She chose to engage in freaky sex within the context of the A. She is now choosing to refuse even somewhat expanded sex with AN. I have seen nothing in AN's posts suggesting that her decisions to take those actions are anything other than conscious and intentional. Your suggestion that this is not purposeful is tantamount to suggesting that she is under some sort of alien mind control, or perhaps in the throes of a multiple personality disorder or some such. That sort of thing is all wild speculation. Nothing AN has posted has suggesting anything other than a sentient woman who has a highly specific idea of how she plans to patter her sex life with her husband.

I'm not sure what you are recommending he "take time" to wait for. She has drawn her line in the sand, intentionally and purposefully. She has given him an unambiguous statement about what "time" will bring. In the words of a long-time colleague: "Zip point sheeit."

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:21 PM, Sunday, March 19th]

Hellfire- you asked how do ws give themselves trauma? I was just trying to answer.

But, as far as how prevalent I would venture to say almost 100 percent do because they didn’t act in their best interests either. I didn’t think it was to discount me in particular and I respect you as well.

Whether or not they work through that is completely another matter. However, her going to therapy out of the gate even before telling him tells me she knows she needed help. That’s my point.

You are absolutely correct not all affairs are the same but I doubt many ws get out without traumatizing themselves unless they have a personality disorder or are a psychopath, or something that allows them to have no conscious whatsoever.

I think because she did everything else it shows this one is not a personality disorder or a psychopath. They don’t seek help on their own. I hope that makes more sense.

But her trauma is not his or our concern, I just answered the question you asked that’s all.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:18 PM, Sunday, March 19th]

I'm not sure what you are recommending he "take time" to wait for.

Exactly my point.

I am not telling him to take time.

I am telling him if he wants to reconcile then she has to be responsible for figuring out the inequity in her actions. It seems like to me this is the first time he is pressing her this hard. This is the first time he is saying I need more from our sex life and now you have opened a door here that makes me think there is more here than meets the eye.

I am not recommending time.

I am recommending if they want to continue to try to reconcile that she will need to do therapy and reflection and be willing to explore this wound.

It’s not as simple as she decided to do it here but not over there. That tells us nothing.

She has to be the one to make sense of it, and she has to be the one to figure out how reparations can be made. That’s all.

. Your suggestion that this is not purposeful is tantamount to suggesting that she is under some sort of alien mind control, or perhaps in the throes of a multiple personality disorder or some such. That sort of thing is all wild speculation. Nothing AN has posted has suggesting anything other than a sentient woman who has a highly specific idea of how she plans to patter her sex life with her husband.

No.

Let’s use the oral sex thing as an example.

She’s probably believed all her life she didn’t like it. And maybe she doesn’t and that’s just the truth.

The fact she did it in these other circumstances do not prove she likes it. It does prove under certain circumstances she can do it at least as a performance.

So now she has caused this wound that we all see as a valid wound. It on the surface looks like she loves it when it’s this other guy but not when it’s her husband.

I would submit to you that the circumstances made her feel like she was someone else. And I relate to that, the way I acted in the affair was 75 percent make believe. I lied about myself regularly to fit this image.

Under the guise of feeling like she is someone else and being in a situation she likely didn’t have any permanence attached to, it was safe. She wouldn’t have to do it the rest of her life. With her husband it’s the rest of her life, so the decision to try once again to try and like it comes at a greater risk. And some of that risk is further disappointing him. Starting something that she can’t finish. This causes more anxiety than you can imagine as a male who likely would be down for most things.

In the light of day, these acts still likely cause her shame. In therapy they teach a ws to not self abandon so they can live more authentically. By doing so they can find their true north. So she is trying to stay in that path I am sure.

A sex therapist is a different animal. They are there to help you have more satisfying sex and have you challenge your beliefs.

This is what I am saying could take some more time.

But I would call it if she isn’t willing to try. I am in the camp that the marriage should be improved for it to be worth staying for. You will never feel justice, but at least when all efforts have been made then you can evaluate what that means.

Most people are floating with the idea this guy was something she wanted more. I think that isn’t what she wanted more of. If she answers the question my guess is it’s not even sex related.

Affairs are illogical and the mentality you are in while having one is nothing but paradoxes. Believing conflicting things at once.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:49 PM, Sunday, March 19th]

The fact she did it in these other circumstances do not prove she likes it. It does prove under certain circumstances she can do it at least as a performance.

AN has empirical evidence that she did in face enjoy it. Not just enjoy it, she wrote about it, fantasized about doing more of it (in the future tense), and enthusiastically returned to do more of it. Have you read all of AN's posts? Or are you saying that the stuff she said and did in real time, when she had no motivation to lie, was all false?

The odd thing about this specific thread is, as I noted above, the WW here isn't saying "I'll do anything to save this." She's not sex-bombing AN. None of the usual stuff. To the contrary, she has drawn a clear and definite line in the sand when it comes to sex. What is on offer is, "Forget the affair, get past it, that was a hiccup. Stay with me and endure the sexual drought that I require from you."

Have you read all of AN's posts? Or are you saying that the stuff she said and did in real time, when she had no motivation to lie, was all false?

Yes I have read them.

She had every reason to lie while in the affair with this man. She wanted it to continue.

I lied constantly to the AP, and sometimes purposefully manipulated him. I did not want to be abandoned by him. You are looking at this without the sickness it actually is.

I never was a liar in my marriage or in general. I was a huge liar in my affair.

I didn’t even have an orgasm, but made it seem like it was just the best thing ever. I was actually experiencing female impotence the entire time of my affair. With all partners, even if I tried to do it solo. I was so numb emotionally that it was effecting me in ways that are not uncommon in an affair.

Yet my affair was highly sexual and involved pictures and sexting constantly. I enjoyed the attention but was getting no sexual gratification whatsoever.

I can’t make it make sense to you, it never will. But trust me when I am not impressed with whatever she was saying to the AP to keep the situation going for whatever pay off she was seeking in the affair.

Studies actually show most women go into affairs seeking emotional connection. We keep twisting the situation so it seems like the risk is paying in some reward. Doubling down, sure we can get what it is we started out seeking. Only getting more lost and desperate in the situation as it goes on.

My husband used to tell his ap she was beautiful. Lol. She is not beautiful and I am not just saying that out of bitterness. Praising a man for his sexual prowess is it’s equivalent.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:11 PM, Sunday, March 19th]

The always generous and accurate HikingOut says:

but instead you guys just keep saying she doesn’t want you like that because you are not worthy in her eyes? Can you not see you are helping emasculation at that point? Because you don’t believe his masculinity belongs to him until he divorced. You fail to see the wound will be there regardless.

And this is the point. This bitter, jealous negativity dressed up as "help" is simply emasculation. Since nobody can see the future (no matter how some of you feel positive that you can), why can you not stop piling on, making the guy's pain even worse??? It's seriously like people think that shaming him is helping him.

Is it that the complexity of the female (or maybe wayward) psyche is too much for you? Then step aside with your simple, black and white thinking. The world is actually in color, y'all. AN has indicated that he would like to give his WW the benefit of addressing this. And as HikingOut has so generously (time after time) explained, because affairs are actually NOT about the AP and NOT about the sex, AN's WW may be able to work through some of the layers in IC and with a sex therapist so that she can become the safe, vulnerable, adventurous partner he deserves.

If that idea is too complex for some here, then step aside. Leave it to those with a more nuanced grasp.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 10:26 PM, Sunday, March 19th]

It's seriously like people think that shaming him is helping him.

I have asked this before and there are men here who do believe they tortured themselves too long trying to R when the situation was always going to be unsurmountable to them. They want to waken up the poster and save them from what they see is wasted time.

In reality, it wasn’t wasted time. It was the exact amount you needed to be sure about your decision. You regret it without realizing your healing then just would have taken place outside of the relationship but the time would still have been put in.

I can understand why some thinks it helps but don’t realize by reinforcing one of the posters greatest fears it only adds confusion and more self harming with those kinds of thoughts.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:23 PM, Sunday, March 19th]

OwningItNow

Is it that the complexity of the female (or maybe wayward) is too much for you?

Are you really that surprised that (some) men find this complexity in women too much to figure out? Many of you agree that men's view on sex is fairly simple,predictable, and vastly different from women's view. Many of you also agree that women are complex when it comes to sex. Don't you think this difference is the cause of such a difference in opinions,views, and claims in this thread on this particular topic. Thanks to all the people coming up here with their different views and beliefs. I have learned so much on this particular topic because of it. Please, don't disregard these guys as bitter,jealous, or negative energy.They are jealous of what?

I have to say, this is the kind of conversation or debate, or whatever that is happening in this thread is what OP and his wife needed to have had done since the dday. If this whole thread was OP and his wife's long conversation on this issue, then they both would have had already reached a very good place by now. They would have had found their middle ground by now. All these talks on emasculation and "it's him, not you" might have floated in OPs brain as thoughts n number of times. He needed to know if these thoughts were real or not, valid or not. You can see his wife has not been helpful to him in this regard. So, posters posting his thoughts in words in this thread and yours and similar others' responses to these posts might clear some of these doubts he has in his mind. These posters are not trying to be bitter or jealous but trying to voice OPs doubts, questions, and feelings in words.

because affairs are actually NOT about the AP and NOT about the sex,

This is a very bold claim. Are you sure that all affairs with no exceptions are never about AP or sex? There are plenty of waywards who blame deadbedroom for their affairs. Many of them are women. Of course, cheaters lie, and so, possibly many of them are lying about deadbedroom. But it's also possible that at least some of them aren't lying about deadbedroom. Also, using the lack of sex in their marriage as a justifiable excuse for their affairs does imply that they are in it for the sex. At least some of them do.

I was having fun until O wasn’t. I absolutely traumatized myself in having an affair

I think my EX would be right there with this. Although for her the fun lasted a few days, it turned ugly relatively quickly. The trauma has lasted since then, and my guess forever. She hasn’t been the same person since DDay, and probably wasn’t since the day she first slept with him, but I just didn’t notice

Im in Hiking Outs camp of coming to the conclusion that she really enjoys these acts, just not with AN as something that we can’t know. I am pretty positive that my EX didn’t enjoy the acts themselves, but rather that as a middle aged woman, she could keep up and please a much younger man. Her whole act of pleasing him, and even starting to flirt was she was feeling irrelevant and this fed her ego. I do know for a fact she looks back at this with anger and disgust for herself. I’m not sure how she would have felt if she got away with it, but she didn’t so that’s a hypothetical. I will say that even as I state this as a fact, it often creeps in my head that she might at times think back as it with a fond memory. But that’s how infidelity can fuck up the BS with doubts of their own. You never really know for sure. I do trust HO in how she looks back at her situation. She isn’t trying to reconcile with anyone here so she has no reason to shade the truth.

That said, AN’s WW needs to be pushed into coming up with a plan to fix this situation. The plan that some here of recommending that they reestablish the intimacy they had, which didn’t sound good, and hope that she somehow turns from someone ready to join a convent, to someone who can enjoy what AN is asking which sounds like a mainstream sex life isn’t really a plan. It’s putting your head in the sand.

She does need an ultimatum. Not that she jumps into bed tomorrow providing porn star sex, but rather to come up with a plan with sex therapy or IC work with the goal of establishing a robust sex life. As for AN getting sex that isn’t genuine in the beginning, that’s ok. He at least is getting his needs met after she spent a year and a half getting her needs meet on steroids. What’s fair is fair.

If she can’t at least start down that path, he needs to start down the path to the courthouse

This is a very bold claim. Are you sure that all affairs with no exceptions are never about AP or sex? There are plenty of waywards who blame deadbedroom for their affairs. Many of them are women. Of course, cheaters lie, and so, possibly many of them are lying about deadbedroom. But it's also possible that at least some of them aren't lying about deadbedroom. Also, using the lack of sex in their marriage as a justifiable excuse for their affairs does imply that they are in it for the sex. At least some of them do.

The reason we know it’s not about the bs or the ap in most cases is due to the proof of the situation.

The ws can not be valuing either person. They are not valuing their spouse, that’s probably more evident to you. But the ap- you are helping them ruin their life. You know you are not available for them. You know what you are doing is wrong. In my case it was even obvious the man was using me.

Oh and he claimed dead bedroom, but what difference does that make? It’s not my job to fix that for him. And, even if it were true do you not think he owed his bride of 30+ years some conversation and honesty? A chance to get the wheels back on the road? And his adult kids? Did I consider them?

Can we not agree on logical situations all of that would have been considered and weighed?

Affairs are about the selfish person who has them. What they need, what they are getting. What others can do for them to make them feel better about themselves.

Could it be people meet and find someone they live and are more compatible with? It usually, in addition to everything you have to find someone sick enough to do it with you. So that limits the pool in which candidates are selected.

Instead, they have chosen someone out of opportunity and proximity. Not always, sometimes it’s an old flame, or someone they legitimately had a crush on. I think you would find that is in less than 10 percent of affairs. I am being generous in that statistic. I wanted to say 2 percent because that’s how many relationships who start out as an affair survive.

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the posts and support. I am reading all of them, taking what I need and leaving the rest, but for the most part I tend to agree with most of what is being posted.

Just thought I would share something a close friend of mine said to me over a beer or 2 as I was filling him in on where I'm at. It's something I think I need to mull over...

He said "It's like the Oracle in the matrix was on about..... you aren't here talking to me because you need help in making the decision. You are talking it out with me so you can understand the decision you have already made, even if you aren't willing to admit it to yourself. You need to Know Thyself."

I think there is something to that.... so maybe why I'm here is for that same reason.

-Also-

I realize I have been pretty vague about the etymology of the A and what it looked like, probably due to a misguided sense of protecting her virtue or some such bullshit. I do think that I need to share it here so you get a clearer picture to the relationship dynamic between them (which is much different to the one within our M).

I'll do that in a future post, once I get my head a little more together.

Cheers!