SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

OwningItNow:
Well, infidelity is CERTAINLY justified if you feel wronged or unsatisfied. Of course! It can't possibly be that your "sense of justice and equity" needs some work. Nope, go straight for recommending infidelity! And fyi: my crystal ball say it's going to be great for the M. Payback always fixes a marriage. That'll teach her!

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Interesting... according to your own story, after your husband cheated with escorts, it was your own revenge affair with a former classmate that after disclosing it to your husband brought changes to your marriage... right? Or is your story wrong? I agree that all infidelity "sucks" but in your case it appears that it gave you a fighting chance in the marriage and in your words at least "He is really turning into a mature and equal partner" Why can't AN at least consider this strategy or tactic to obtain an equal partner? Or at least, perhaps, use a bluff? It appear to have worked for you.. and I say this with all due respect, OIN you did what you thought you had to do stay sane, protect yourself and restore some sense of balance in your marriage... I honestly tip my hat to you.

And speaking of strategy and tactics, you then wrote:

"This is NOT the military, not even close. Of course he has agency! He can get a D whenever he wants. He can also simply say, "No, that doesn't work for me." He has complete agency over his own self."

I never claimed this is the military, I used a military term.. AN feels he has been cornered and "managed" by his WW and MC, he needs to regain control and I gave him an option to at least get out of the corner.. or dare I say "to go on the offensive" or is that too militaristic? Isn't that the point of this site... to offer strategy, tactics and tips to assist betrayeds? If not what's the point of these threads? And I strongly disagree that he has agency in his marriage right now and definitely not during the affair.

Infidelity is never justified. I was certainly unsatisfied in my M and I NEVER thought of cheating.

t/j

rrtreyh3, you haven't made any posts except the two on this thread. Why don't you post your own story so you can receive help specific to your own situation?

end t/j

you are gonna throw it all away just because I don't give you oral?"

You didn’t throw it all away. She did.

A REVENGE AFFAIR?!?!?!" I can already hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth, rending of garments, pulling of hair and clutching of pearls of a lot of people on here. Maybe even the swish of the ban hammer coming down.

SWISH!!!

If pressed, I'd say stop worrying so much about it. Sex is just one aspect of a marital relationship, albeit an important one. Assess the rest of it. Does he like her? Is he happy spending time with her? Does he feel like she has corrected (or is correcting) the flaws in her character which allowed her to say 'yes' to perfidy? If there's enough to work with in terms of emotional compatibility, the sex can follow as the relationship heals. When emotional intimacy is reestablished, wonderful things can happen and they often happen organically.

Unfortunately, this is what I was thinking the response would be. The reality is she gave herself both emotionally, which can’t be discounted, and physically to another man for a year and a half. She had the kind of sex that AN wanted at least 10 times. Now he needs to go to MC, IC, possibly sex therapy to deal with the disaster she created.

Then after that, if they get to the point of reestablishing emotional intimacy ( note reestablishing meaning back to where they were) he then gets to wish, hope, and pray that the wonderful things may happen organically. The problem is they did have emotional intimacy prior, yet nothing ever happened to change the barren sex life AN was forced into. She of course got her fun. What if she still maintains her hard line on sex? Hope and pray it may change in 5 years, 10 years? If the above solution is to pray things change it’s not a solution. That’s how lottery tickets are sold. Remember this guy is going to have to live with the images of the monkey sex she had with this guy for the rest of his life. How is that going to be for him. Especially if she still wants plain in the dark quick vanilla sex.

I do think the answer is an ultimatum, but in a softer form. He should give her a year for them to work on this. She needs to agree to go to sex therapy, or a minimum of working with her IC on this specific problem. She doesn’t need to become a porn star overnight, or even get that far but she can buy some lingerie right away which is a baby step. Then slowly start incorporating other sexual things like texts, pictures to AN, and then proceed to things more physical. If after a year she can’t do it, she needs to know AN will be done. She at least will have a say in how the marriage unfolds, which is far more than AN had.

She worked hard to please her AP for a year and a half. She needs to put in the work for AN in the same manner.

[This message edited by waitedwaytoolong at 12:52 PM, Sunday, March 19th]

If pressed, I'd say stop worrying so much about it. Sex is just one aspect of a marital relationship, albeit an important one. Assess the rest of it. Does he like her? Is he happy spending time with her? Does he feel like she has corrected (or is correcting) the flaws in her character which allowed her to say 'yes' to perfidy? If there's enough to work with in terms of emotional compatibility, the sex can follow as the relationship heals. When emotional intimacy is reestablished, wonderful things can happen and they often happen organically

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This is how it will work out for them, if they reconcile. They have to re-establish emotional intimacy and take it from there to the sexual intimacy. Problem here is she is not willing to show him that that possibility exists.. She is not saying, "We will reach that level of intimacy. That is my aim. But before that I have some things to work on myself". No. She said the old marriage is what she is aiming at. She refuses to make any attempt to build a new marriage with new arrangements that could fulfill both of their needs.

The more I ponder the "keep doing what you're doing, crossing your fingers and hoping that one day you might get something more than what you're getting" advice, the more insane it sounds. Some would actually describe it as the definition of insanity.

As far as we know, prior to the A, AN had been a patient, present, sentient, empathetic, supportive spouse, hoping sex will follow. He even stopped looking at porn, despite the sexual starvation diet his WW force-fed him. He respectfully asked for more sexual variety, but he honored her repeated refusals and didn't push the issue. This is what he got from his WW in exchange for being a good husband:

I have a huge amount of resentment that at least some of the refusals that I experienced from WW during the A were at the urging of AP. He didn't like the idea of her being with me and not him.

The capstone of sexual degradation a WW can heap upon her BH: intentional sexual deprivation for the express benefit of the AP. Honestly, who would do that? It takes a pathologically cruel, cold hearted person to do that sort of thing to another human, never mind one whom she purports to be intimate with and emotionally connected to.

Does he feel like she has corrected (or is correcting) the flaws in her character which allowed her to say 'yes' to perfidy?

We can only base our advice on what AN tells us, but based on that: no, she has not and is not. To the contrary, she is trying to force AN back to the same emotional/sexual desert he occupied (as an unwitting BH) prior to Dday. "My way or the highway". How many times have we seen a thread where a WS took an "It's my way or the highway" approach to R, and this resulted in successful R? My count yields zero times. The sine qua non of R is empathy by the WW for the BH's humiliation and pain, coupled with actions to assuage that humiliation and pain. I've not seen AN describe anything even remotely like that. To the contrary, she gaslights him with bullcrap like "you are gonna throw it all away just because I don't give you oral?"

If there's enough to work with in terms of emotional compatibility, the sex can follow as the relationship heals.

And the lion sleeps with the lamb, right? Reading between the lines here, my gut tells me that AN's WW confessed because the OBW was otherwise going to out her. My gut is that Mrs. AN worked in advance with her IC to arm herself for bear in terms of how to gaslight a bitterly injured BH into remaining technically married, and so far, their approach has been a master class in the process of getting him to kick the can down the road in stepwise fashion, all while amplifying his false sense of sunk cost.

They say that what happens after Dday can be as important as what happened during the A. Here, the facts of the A are as awful as any I've seen. I do believe in degrees of affair-related injury. The injury to AN is off the charts. An 11 out of 10. But to my eyes, the after Dday part has been a master class in gas lighting, a paint-by-numbers effort to create a simulacrum of efforts at affair recovery as a decoy for the reality that AN's WW is trying to get him back into the straight jacket of coerced non-sex that she had wriggled him into prior to Dday. He got into that straight jacket willingly the first time, and look where it got him. Why on earth would he don it again?

AN, it is going on 2 years post Dday for you. What you have now, this is as good as it's going to get. Do you really want what you have today (sleeping apart, her hitting below-the-belt with false syllogism insults and challenges, you holding a Sword of Damocles over her head) for the rest of your life? I think you know your answer. What keeps coming back to me is that immortal line from that old Hank Williams (Sr.) tune: "You gonna change, or I'm a-gonna leave."

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 8:04 PM, Sunday, March 19th]

What BFTG just said!!!!

The reality is she gave herself both emotionally, which can’t be discounted, and physically to another man for a year and a half. She had the kind of sex that AN wanted at least 10 times. Now he needs to go to MC, IC, possibly sex therapy to deal with the disaster she created.

No amount of marital sex changes that reality. Nothing ever changes that reality. That's the part which, I think, is being missed in all this. I have to concede, maybe blowjobs are the most important thing to some people. Maybe that's the big ticket item for some. But the OP has said nothing which leads me to believe that achieving a sexual agenda is more important than who he's achieving it with or what the circumstances might be surrounding that relationship going forward. If sex is the agenda, than by all means, people should make deals, accept transactions, and get what they want. But for people whose priority is whether or not they can reestablish a meaningful reconciliation with their WS, why go to all the bother of sexual ultimatums and all that when you haven't resolved whether or not the REALITY of the cheating in itself is a deal-breaker?

Like it or not, we do have to "get over it" in R. We don't like to think of it in those terms. That particular language offends our sensibilities because it seems so quick to minimize our pain. But when we look from the other angle of "not getting over it" and rephrase, we see that we're "holding onto it", and I think we'd be hard-pressed to find people who think "holding onto it" is a good idea. Every single detail that the OP has discovered will have to be processed and surmounted. Right now, part of that processing has to do with ways in which the sex differed between the AP and himself. No amount of blowjobs fixes that. The past happened and the fact of it must still be processed. Believe me, I know. Been there and done that. There's no justice in R. None. In R, we have to accept that the WS essentially "got away with it", and frankly, that's just a deal-breaker for some people. Sexual equivalency exercises don't change that. They only make it harder by changing the topic and creating a whole different flavor of hard feelings.

It stands to reason that anybody who's entertaining thoughts of R wants to make sure they end up with the best marriage possible. Shouldn't the priority be deciding whether you actually want to still be married to this person first? It's not like the orifices are removable. There's still a whole person attached, a person with a history of intimate betrayal alongside whatever finer qualities they might have to offer. That history has to be processed and dealt with because it is a FACT.

The OP's pain and disappointment is palpable... and relatable. It's easy to feel the injustice and primal wounding of it when you've experienced infidelity yourself. I still think that this entire subject is a trap though. It ends up "putting the cart before the horse" as it were, but worse, it makes R much more complicated by creating a transactional relationship rather than an emotionally intimate one. Heck, no doubt there are any number of WS's who would be all to happy to make some kind of agreed upon restitution in order to preserve their home deal. If we say, for example, that the payment is cash rather than blowjobs, it's easy to see. The real damage incurred by the reality of the cheating still remains. No amount of money makes it go away.

The argument here is typically that the WS should WANT to do it, but that's also the fly in the "ultimatum" ointment. Once that ultimatum has escaped your lips, you can never be sure because you can never take it back. The only way to see if the WS really "wants" to have sex with you is to reestablish emotional intimacy and connection. As BS's in long-term marriages, we are, like it or not, a package deal. On the one hand, there's love/desire. On the other, security/family. In emotional terms and for the purposes of sexuality, we feel the need for reassurance that we are loved and desired for ourselves... but we are still a whole "package". Our best chance to get that reassurance, IMHO, is to refrain from overtly invoking the security/family portion.

Like it or not, we do have to "get over it" in R. We don't like to think of it in those terms. That particular language offends our sensibilities because it seems so quick to minimize our pain. But when we look from the other angle of "not getting over it" and rephrase, we see that we're "holding onto it", and I think we'd be hard-pressed to find people who think "holding onto it" is a good idea. Every single detail that the OP has discovered will have to be processed and surmounted.

Agree with you 100%.

My point is that sometimes this is too much to ask. Sometimes, the injury is too great. The way for the BH to heal in those times is to move on.

I'm mindful of WWTL, who realized, after 5 years of good faith effort, he would never be able to look at his wife with eyes of unvarnished love.

it makes R much more complicated by creating a transactional relationship rather than an emotionally intimate one. Heck, no doubt there are any number of WS's who would be all to happy to make some kind of agreed upon restitution in order to preserve their home deal. If we say, for example, that the payment is cash rather than blowjobs, it's easy to see. The real damage incurred by the reality of the cheating still remains. No amount of money makes it go away.

Also agreed 100%. It's even more bleak than you describe. We've seen threads where the WW has voluntarily offered up the sex acts that she shared with the AP, but had previously denied the BH. In those cases, it never feels good. The BH perceives the offer to be insincere, transactional. Those resonances are anathema to erotic pleasure. Meanwhile, his mind movies range to musing about how she learned to do these things from/with the AP.

That's why I describe this specific dynamic as a "lose/lose" for the BH. There really is no path for AN here to achieve the sex life he desires with Mrs. AN. For AN, R must necessarily involve a stunted, restricted sex life compared to the sex life he would like to have.

It's actually starker in this thread than most because Mrs. AN has drawn her line in the sand. Mr. AN really is facing a classic Hobson's Choice here. Frankly, I think that makes Mr. AN's decision chain shorter and simpler. Usually you have the WW saying "I'll do anything to fix this", leaving the BH to sort out what "anything" really means via actions and innuendo. Here, Mrs. AN has said: "I'll be really nice to you, a great roommate and mother, and super-polite. But sex: nope. That's my take-it-or-leave-it. Tag you're it."

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 5:08 PM, Sunday, March 19th]

Some responses ...

Why can't AN at least consider this strategy or tactic to obtain an equal partner?

Because '2 wrongs make a right' is a strategy that is doomed to fail. I suspect most teenagers have learned that.

How many teenagers are in joyful long term relationships? I don't know, but I'm a lot happier and more effective as an adult than I was in HS.

*****

It's been said that we're telling AN what not to do (don't coerce), and we need to tell him what to do.

I disagree - I think AN has been given advice on what to do, but it's been missed, and it's obviously been subtle.

Hikingout said it best: (something like) WS needs to be willing to change what she does OR BS needs to D. I'd add that AN could also choose to stay in this M without changes in the sex, but that, too, would best be a 'be willing or D' choice.

My W was always triggered by sex. She often froze when faced with it, and she was usually afraid to participate as much as part of her wanted to. She usually felt sometimes yes, sometimes no, but most of the time maybe. Our resolution was for her to turn every 'maybe' to 'yes' or 'no' and to choose 'no' only when she was certain that was the right answer for her at that time. She also worked in IC to separate here and now from her CSA.

That solved our specific problem. AN and his W need to find the solution that works for them.

I'm all for making this a requirement for R - not just for AN, but for everybody who considers or chooses R. R is worth the effort, IMO, only if a couple (or more) build a new M that serves all partners. Part of that is deciding what desires rise to the level of needs - and if the need isn't met, it's time to split.

For me, an active, joyful sex life is a requirement. I think I'd have walked if my W hadn't changed her approach to sex. My advice to AN, then about what to do is this: decide what your deal killers are and let your W know what they are. If she signs on to satisfy your requirement, great - R is possible. If she won't sign on, great - it's time to D.

I don't think any of us are telling AN to stifle himself. I do think that many of the posters who are outraged at AN's W's behavior just don't see that the advice includes '...and D if your WS won't agree to a resolution you can embrace.'

*****

Maybe you can explain how a WS is psychologically traumatized by having an affair?

IMO. it's more likely that many WSes have the A because of trauma experienced previous to the A. It's the previous trauma that left the hole that the WS wants to fill.

The A adds to the trauma for those WSes who take some responsibility for themselves. If they take responsibility, even at a pre-conscious level, the A will give them many reasons to beat themselves up. They have to deal with the cognitive dissonance of violating their vows and wanting to be a 'good' person, et.c, etc., etc.

That may not apply to all WSes, but it most definitely applies to many.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:15 PM, Sunday, March 19th]

I am reminded of an old "Two and A Half Men" episode. Alan and Judith were divorced. Evidently before their divorce they only had infrequent vanilla sex. A few years later circumstances became such that they began having sex again. After one of these sex sessions they were pillow talking. Alan's mouth went into gear and words started coming out he wasn't able to control. He said something like "I see you have added some new moves to your repertoire"... or words to that effect. He then said something about like he couldn't help but wonder where she learned those moves from, or if she had them all the time, but did not use them with him. Judith said something like, "Alan, don't go there". Alan then said something like, "That is what you used to say.. don't go there... don't touch that... leave that alone".

That phrase she used when she and her counselor ambushed you in a meeting... "You WON". WOW!!! She truly believes she is the best prize ever, and located way up there on the top shelf, and you should be happy that she is giving you "another chance" and just keep your mouth shut. Just WOW!!!

AN, the amount of DISRESPECT your wife is showing you is truly overwhelming. She just expects you to forgive her transgressions, sweep everything under the rug, and move on as if nothing ever happened. She holds you in very small regard.

I know what I would do if I were in your shoes. My wife would need to put her head on a swivel because I would leave as fast as I could and she would need to turn her head quickly in order to see me leave. But that is me and I as previously said, I am not you and you are not me.

Good luck to whatever you decide to do.

[This message edited by lrpprl at 5:37 PM, Sunday, March 19th]

I'm mindful of WWTL, who realized, after 5 years of good faith effort, he would never be able to look at his wife with eyes of unvarnished love.

I actually don’t think our situation is that similar. Our sex life prior to to her affair was very satisfying. AN’s was not.

The major sex act she did with her AP that pissed me off we actually had done. Just very very rarely as they were painful for her. I really didn’t feel like I was missing out as the rest of our sex life was good, and why make her do something that was physically painful. I just was pissed off she worked so hard and suffered the pain which had to be worse as he was bigger. She did offer it up, but I was one who refused. I didn’t want that after he stretched her out. Nor the other things

AN’s WW is not offering anything up that she did with the AP. Not even lingerie. He seems to be able to look past the acts, but would like to use this as an impetus to go from an unsatisfactory sex life to something robust. He isn’t looking for everything the AP got, just some of the things, and more importantly the passion which she gave to the AP.

I am not 100% sure, but I think he is willing to forgive the affair of a year and a half, if it can be a launching point for a better marriage. I thought I thought I could, wasn’t capable of forgiving my EX even though it was weeks. BFTG I agree I never saw my wife the same. I don’t get that feeling here. I think he still has strong love for her, and is capable of forgiveness. He just doesn’t want to go back to the same shitty repressed sex life he had. Nor should he.

My EX also didn’t try to manage me the way his wife is. I was in management and would have seen through it in a second. She concentrated on trying to win back my respect. She knew I still loved her, but without respect for her, and myself, it woukd never work. AN’s wife is offering up the facts, but without any solutions to get to a better marriage.

In retrospect our marriage was doomed the second she slept with him a second time. I don’t get AN’s is doomed if she would just agree to be open about spicing things up. He is obviously patient and isn’t expecting too much right away, but he needs to have a roadmap to get to a better place

As for the transactional part. What relationship isn’t transactional to some point. My girlfriend went to see Creed(great movie) I went to Banshees of Inisherin (slowest movie in history). She will go out with some of my friends that she doesn’t quite car for, and I do the same. I get it isn’t quite the same as sex, but in a way it is. Especially since his ask isn’t all that great.

If the transaction is I will overlook the year and a half affair where you had sex I won’t even ask for, as long as you show some movement in our sex life, it’s a deal she should take

BFTG:

There really is no path for AN here to achieve the sex life he desires with Mrs.

The only path is if she has a breakthrough revelation of emotional intimacy that organically leads to improved physical intimacy. A level of intimacy that obviously never existed in her before the A and probably was a leading contributing factor to the A. If she continues down her current inauthentic path, they’re getting nowhere.

Emotionally intimate (absolute honest introspection) with herself, first and foremost, emotional intimacy with AN and, of course, mutual emotional intimacy.

She may reach that level of honest introspection and determine that she’s just not that into AN.

That would still be a better outcome than the current path they’re on.

RB, I doubt that is a possibility here, based on this from one of AN's posts:

that she has returned to her faith to help her follow the "right path" and why can’t I accept it?

She's turned this into a religion thing. My observation has been that people who play the r-card vis-a-vis sex are rigid and dogmatic. There's no room for compromise, nor for emotional intimacy, where a person professes to believe that the literal salvation of her mortal soul hinges on holding the line. "If I give you a BJ, I go to Hell. How could you even ask me to do such a thing?" That sort of shariah is the death knell of a joyous intimate bedroom.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 6:16 PM, Sunday, March 19th]

As for the transactional part. What relationship isn’t transactional to some point. My girlfriend went to see Creed(great movie) I went to Banshees of Inisherin (slowest movie in history). She will go out with some of my friends that she doesn’t quite car for, and I do the same. I get it isn’t quite the same as sex, but in a way it is. Especially since his ask isn’t all that great.

Did your girlfriend say, "go see Banshees of Inisherin with me or I'm dumping you"? I think you're confusing compromise with transaction. Compromises aren't ultimatums. They're about finding middle ground.

If the transaction is I will overlook the year and a half affair where you had sex I won’t even ask for, as long as you show some movement in our sex life, it’s a deal she should take

Why would the OP agree to a deal that you, yourself, rejected as not emotionally satisfying enough to devote your life to?

The only path is if she has a breakthrough revelation of emotional intimacy that organically leads to improved physical intimacy. A level of intimacy that obviously never existed in her before the A and probably was a leading contributing factor to the A. If she continues down her current inauthentic path, they’re getting nowhere.

Emotionally intimate (absolute honest introspection) with herself, first and foremost, emotional intimacy with AN and, of course, mutual emotional intimacy.

She may reach that level of honest introspection and determine that she’s just not that into AN.

That would still be a better outcome than the current path they’re on.

EXACTLY. If she can't get there in an emotionally intimate and connected environment, she can't get there at at all.

The sexual incompatibility preexists the cheating and the WW's behavior during the affair has shined a big spotlight on it. But the cheating and the sexual incapability are still two distinct problems, either of which can be marriage ending in their own right. The temptation to treat them as the same problem might be strong due to the injury involved, but each problem will have it's own solution... or not, depending on what the OP's goals for his future turn out to be.

She's turned this into a religion thing. My observation has been that people who play the r-card vis-a-vis sex are rigid and dogmatic. There's no room for compromise, nor for emotional intimacy, where a person professes to believe that the literal salvation of her mortal soul hinges on holding the line. "If I give you a BJ, I go to Hell. How could you even ask me to do such a thing?" That sort of shariah is the death knell of a joyous intimate bedroom.

I have to agree. Guinevere is making a run towards the convent.

I think its important to acknowledge that not all WS were,or are, traumatized. Some cheated because it was fun,they had the opportunity, and now that they've been caught, they're having to deal with consequences. And that sucks. But they enjoyed their affair. Not all WS should be painted with the broad brush that they're all remorseful, or dealing with trauma. Not all want,or feel the need to do the work.

Too often members here paint all WS who want R as remorseful, and wanting to do the work. When that's simply not true. Many want to appear remorseful, and wear a mask. Not all ws are hikingout, seats, or Daddydom.

I don't see a remorseful WS here. Yes, she confessed. But the OBS found out,so there wasn't much of a choice. She has been running down a checklist of things a ws should do. But it's clear that very little introspection has been done. She refers to the woman who had the affair as of it was someone else. "Her." Not "I." And then she has narrowed down her nearly 2 year affair to having given a blow job. And she doesn't seem to grasp the devastation her affair has caused her husband. It seems very little real work has been done by her in 2 years.

OP, do you want to stay married to this woman, if things stay as they are? Are you ok with going back to the status quo? Aside from a lackluster sex life, how has she treated you throughout the marriage? Does she have empathy for what she's done? Are you allowed to express your pain outside of MC? Do you believe she enjoyed sex with OM?

I think you're getting somewhere AN, somewhere good.

Yes, wanted to say this earlier. Totally agree with Sisoon. Because of or in spite of the wide-ranging comments here, you seem to be getting to some solid thinking, AspectNorth.

Also fully agree with what ChamomileTea is saying (as I usually do). Women very often have strong emotional and psychological reasons for when, where, why, and how we have sex or intimacy. I don't want to generalize too much because I've encountered some men who are the same, but many men seem to have a more detached, physical compulsion to have sex that is not in any way tied to their feelings or psychology. And so many conversations that I've had with female friends over the decades indicate that their wanting or not wanting sex is almost entirely because of other things going on in their lives. I hate that we're like this, but so many of us are (not all, but many).

For example, my H wants to have sex to relax, but I cannot get into the mood for sex until I'm relaxed! I try to understand how this crabby, stressed out human can possibly be in the mood to jump into bed, and he can't understand how sex won't help me! It's the LAST thing on my mind when I'm stressed.

I am in no way making excuses for AN's WW because they need to work this out or D. Of course. But simplifying this complex situation into "she wanted him, she didn't want you" dismisses 100% of the research on the subject. Another fact: women are attracted to a new partner for up to two years before their attraction starts to fade. Researchers don't exactly know why, if it's familiarity that women don't find sexy, if it's their maternal feelings for family that dampens a sex drive, or stress. Whatever. But it is extremely common, even in women who are not cheating and are working on it with sex therapists. And then there are the crazy and confusing messages we get about sex all of our lives ("Don't be a whore!" "You are married, now be a whore!") that some women can't recover from and we become complicated. That's for sure.

Some women are fine, but they are the lucky ones. More of my long married friends have sexual complaints than the ones who don't. I'm not proud that we're this complicated, but it's just a fact.

Then you add in that internet porn has made more men very confused about what they "deserve" or what women even want (look it up, it's the truth) and we become a society with problems. But you all already knew that.

You do what you need to do, AspectNorth. But that your wife loves you yet doesn't have this revved up engine for you speaks to the crazy psychology of a woman's sex drive. And she DOES need to address it and fix it! Because there is a psychological or emotional piece, some sort of baggage, that lies beneath her sexual behavior.

Attraction is very complicated for women. In my experience, it's all in the eyes for men, but it lies at the intersection of many opposing forces for women. It feels unfair actually. I wish it weren't so complicated for us.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 7:36 PM, Sunday, March 19th]

The sexual incompatibility preexists the cheating and the WW's behavior during the affair has shined a big spotlight on it. But the cheating and the sexual incapability are still two distinct problems, either of which can be marriage ending in their own right.

Or, two distinct symptoms of a more fundamental problem.

She may be sexually compatible with AN, but not in her pre-A state and, especially, not in this maladapted post-A context she has created and is pushing.

I’m not against mixing theology and psychology. There’s plenty of religious couples out there that have mutually fulfilling sex lives, but Mrs AN seems to be taking it to an extreme, over compensating at the expense of their mutual happiness or,
she knows exactly what she’s doing, purposefully, pragmatically maneuvering AN back to the pre-A marriage, the only state of marriage she finds tenable and tolerable,
for her.