SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

All the simplified "She's just not the into you" comments make my head hurt. Like it can't be any more complicated than that. But, of course, it CAN, and it probably is.

To the vast majority of men, and even many women would concur, the fact set here is practically a giant billboard that screams "she's just not into you"....or at least, not THAT way. Of course it CAN be more than that but Occam's razor is probably a decent bet. Especially when you consider that such an admission would practically destroy what looks to be a desired outcome by WS of R. She did carry this on for an extended period of time with probably thousands of lies (including by omission) so she is certainly capable of lying when it benefits her in some way.

Arent demanding WS to go NC with their AP, not to trickle truth, etc are also ultimatums? If yes, then why are these recommended here?

To Hikingout and Sacredsoulsister:

I agree with a lot you’re saying and believe the answer is a combination of the various views with unknowns about Mrs AN In debate, but…

I have to respectfully question your stance that ALL affairs are NOT about the AP. Tens of thousands of Redditors on their cheater forums would disagree, unless they’re all FOS. There are reams of posts praising, bragging about their APs and their attributes, trading Op Sec with each other to maintain their A. They talk about how they can’t imagine giving up, living without the incredible sex, the connection, etc. They ruthlessly disparage their unwitting BS’s and how clueless they are.

They also very consciously prefer to safeguard their home situation with excellent well maintained and constantly reinforced Op Sec. They pride themselves on it.

Perhaps it is all part of their psychosis, the A fog, the self adulation? I’m totally open minded to that possibility, but they sure seem sincere. One thing is sure, they seem to believe it.

We don’t like talking about it on SI because it’s a very uncomfortable truth, it’s traumatizing as hell to a BS and a certain death blow to any chance of R, but it’s first and foremost on every BSs mind when considering R.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 7:40 PM, Monday, March 20th]

BFTG,

I have no doubt any of us have but the best intentions.

What I am hearing from you is you have been debating what I am writing because you do not believe she should be offered the chance to work through this issue.

That is as fair of an assessment as any.

What it disregards is there is still that thing that has kept him married before she ever had the affair. It’s some of the easiest piece to discard but it’s there. Some men would not find it tenable to be married to her before, as well as some women.

Hell, it’s why I divorced my first husband, he was too vanilla and I could not live like that the rest of my life. We were each others firsts too. He wouldn’t work on it.

We can debate about gatekeeping. But I know my first husband wasn’t doing that, he was sexually immature due to lack of experience and he couldn’t handle me at full throttled. I don’t believe she purposefully denied him all that time because she would be denying herself.

It’s my position he was her first sexual partner and it’s more about the beliefs that surround that. Some women do not consider sex to be a need other than something that they need to offer in marriage as part of a duty. As CT said our levels of testosterone are nil in comparison, so we are almost always more invested in the emotional components of marriage. That’s our world. I love sex, but by far it’s not most important in my list.

It’s not an evil manipulation, it’s more they are not in touch with their own sexuality.

We agree, there needs to be empathy here and her stretching to see what change can happen.

I don’t think she feels she needs that sex. Not from AN and not from AP. Th3e difference with AP is was a tool to keep getting her drugs.

Replicating that in her marriage would not be healthy for either of them. Instead she has to do some Intensive work to see if it is possible for her to connect with that side of herself in her normal life.

What I am hearing is you are afraid he will invest too much. But the same risk is there for not investing enough. Sometimes people need to feel they have done all they could for a marriage. In this case it would include the time needed to see if this could be worked through.

If AN doesn’t need that time I trust him to know that.

I agree that cheating and fidelity are matters of the heart. But what you must account for is that sometimes people get so out of balance in the narrative they are telling themselves that whatever they are seeking supersedes everything for them. They are out of balance, and thoughts can not be trusted. If it was always just about sexual inspiration you would have done the threesome. You would have to add desperation and a lack of being firm in who you are. Resentments that tell you that you deserve it.

Cheating always has peripheral shit at play that has nothing to do with sex or who is desirable. I know you are capable of abstract thinking, or I wouldn’t press you on it. There are others here that are not capable and I don’t address it with them. My posts are long winded because this is not nearly as simple as it looks from the outside. There is no formula you can calculate with here.

If he posts later today he wants to divorce, he will get zero arguments from me. But I do believe it is surmountable if it’s worked on and they both want it.

Also, for what it’s worth, when my husband had his affair, and he said all the "you are beautiful" and "I love you" to her, he meant none of that shit. He might have thought he did but in the light of day they looked different to him. He had as much sex with her as he did with me, and she got it without all the toxic shit that swirled between us because of my affair. There is always parts you will never get back or fix, justices that won’t happen.

You do not know this is not fixable any more than me thinking it might be. I honestly felt like by the time my husband cheated there was too much damage and I needed to call it. I leaned that way for a good year. I am glad I didn’t listen to my fears.

I am not rooting for R or D. I am promoting understanding in an area that is not logical. If it were, I wouldn’t be here.

Arent demanding WS to go NC with their AP, not to trickle truth, etc are also ultimatums? If yes, then why are these recommended here?

That is not the same as bodily autonomy in a marrage. Not even close.

I have to respectfully question your stance that ALL affairs are NOT about the AP. Tens of thousands of Redditors on their cheater forums would disagree, unless they’re all FOS. There are reams of posts praising, bragging about their APs and their attributes, trading Op Sec with each other to maintain their A. They talk about how they can’t imagine giving up, living without the incredible sex, the connection, etc.

I belonged to a site that was not judgemental of affairs. I was an active wayward at the time justifying my behavior to others because I did not want to stop my addiction.

I don’t find it to be amazing there are ws’s out there who do not want to evaluate their true motivations or do the work to see how sick their behavior is.

I don’t discount that exists at all.

We are talking about a woman who put herself in counseling, confessed to everything with no trickle truth to be found. Sounds very familiar because that too is what I did. I wasn’t behaving in a way that was congruent with who I believed myself to be.

There are plenty of people who once a cheater stays a cheater. Their whole lives.

If this woman is serious about R, she will take the path of sex therapy and work to understand herself so that her husband can too. That’s the onus all we have and not all will do that. So I don’t discount what you are saying, but she has shown a lot of reasons to believe her efforts are sincere .

She told him what she did so they could work together to save the marriage. Otherwise she could have kept it to herself. People do it all the time, and despite us believing the truth will prevail, I don’t think that’s always true either. I know plenty of serial cheaters who got away with it for decades.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:47 PM, Monday, March 20th]

I have to respectfully question your stance that ALL affairs are NOT about the AP. Tens of thousands of Redditors on their cheater forums would disagree, unless they’re all FOS. There are reams of posts praising, bragging about their APs and their attributes, trading Op Sec with each other to maintain their A. They talk about how they can’t imagine giving up, living without the incredible sex, the connection, etc.

May be that is how they brainwash themselves and each other. I have seen them completely ignoring comments made by BS or infidelity haters in that forum. I get the feeling they ignore such comments because they are uncomfortable truth for them. If they engage with these comments their happy mask will wear off and what will be exposed is an ugly, insecure, miserable face.

I knew a woman who was having affair for three years. She used to humiliate her husband and badmouth him a lot. He was a douche. She wasn't lying about that. But, one day while talking to a mutual friend of ours she said, "she feels disgusted about herself". It felt like her usual proud and bragging face was pulled off and her real face was exposed. But, immediately she changed the topic and wore back that mask. What I am trying to say is it's possible that these WS, at least most of them, deep down definitely know they are awful, disgusting people but they don't want to believe it or dwell upon that reality because it's painful and humiliating. That is why they try to brainwash themselves with these BS on that forum for distraction and validation.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 8:00 PM, Monday, March 20th]

You do not know this is not fixable any more than me thinking it might be.

For me, the fatal blow was when she played the r-card. I'll admit that I harbor a bias against dogmatic religion. That springs from my own personal FOO issues in this area.

In my (unfortunately all-to-abundant) experience, people who resort to religion in a context like this one tend to be rigid and non-yielding. They genuinely believe that the salvation of their soul depends on holding the hard line. This is why I describe Mr. AN's path down the road you suggest as a "belligerent dead end."

You say:

Normal People do not deny themselves of sex they want most that is readily available in their marriage.

People who harbor fervent religious beliefs do this and far more. Heck, there are hardcore adherents of some faiths who view it as right and just that a father should murder his own female child who was raped by an adult man, because she is now impure, and they justify this because that's what religion tells him to do.

Yes, Mr. AN could have left the marriage before the A. As you know, that's easier said than done for a spouse where things are moderately unsatisfactory but mostly stable. There is the whole dynamic of being a father and a household provider and all that. For a man who defines his worth as a man in terms of his reliability in handling these roles, upsetting the apple cart for a chance at a new sex partner can feel selfish and, well, wrong. A man's inner dialogue might be something along the lines of: "What did my solemn promise of 'for better or worse' mean if I didn't mean the 'worse' part just as much as the 'better' part?" This is why I say the A might be the best thing that happened to Mr. AN.

She told him what she did so they could work together to save the marriage. Otherwise she could have kept it to herself.

Lurking in my heart is a suspicion that she told him because she reckoned she would otherwise be outed by the OBW.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 8:35 PM, Monday, March 20th]

That is not the same as bodily autonomy in a marrage. Not even close

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Agreed. But, I have seen few WSs who resented their partners when they were forced to go NC with their APs, when there were cornered to end the trickle truth. In these cases, ultimatum did have a counter effect. There were confessions on the infidelity tolerant forums where they openly claimed they hated their partners more because of such ultimatums.

Her affair started before covid lockdown. During the lockdown,she became sad and depressed. She was no longer able to meet with her AP. Her husband suggested she go to therapy. She did not come up with the idea on her own. During therapy she discussed the affair with her IC, and her IC helped her come to terms with it,and together they devised a plan to tell OP. And she did..in a session in which he felt trapped.

They are now nearly 3 years past dday. Forget the continued lack of care about her husband's sexual needs..which is a huge issue for most men,and this man(OP). At nearly 3 years out, she refers to the affair in third person..as if it wasn't she who had the affair. That screams that she doesn't own what she did..after all, "she" did it. Not "I," not "me," but "her." She had minimized the affair into a blow job,and then compared her husband asking her to be more adventurous in the bedroom, as she was with AP, by telling him all men are the same.

These issues alone are enough reason for anyone to be done. He has said he doesn't feel he can continue. All of this talk about sex is good for a discussion, but is really irrelevant. She doesn't own what she did. She minimizes her affair. She seems unwilling to compromise and take his needs into consideration. All of these things says she's not R material.

Agreed. But, I have seen few WSs who resented their partners when they were forced to go NC with their APs, when there were cornered to end the trickle truth.

Temporary resentment. That is something a ws will eventually see as needed to happen if they do the work. No amount of work can mitigate coercion.

Lurking in my heart is a suspicion that she told him because she reckoned she would otherwise be outed by the OBW.

That’s fair. Might be a blind spot for me. I too could have been outed by the obs, but had no real fears of it. To this day, she never once contacted my husband.

Hellfire, you are entitled to your opinion. It’s been 18 months however, not 3 years. And outside of this issue AN reports she has been a model ws. I am in agreement she needs to work on this issue, so I don’t see you and I having an opposing viewpoint.

Temporary resentment. That is something a ws will eventually see as needed to happen if they do the work. No amount of work can mitigate coercion.

Hmm if it's temporary then it make sense.

18 months was her affair. Her dday was 3 years ago.

Hellfire: I do believe that she confessed to her IC because it was eating her up. We have seen many WS attending ICs for months but they never confess. But, I agree 3 years is a long time to make little to no progress in intimacy department.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 8:25 PM, Monday, March 20th]

First of all, @hiking out I commend you for continuing to respectfully state your point of view on this thread. As this is a very triggering topic for myself, and many of the rest of us feel strongly about this, you are getting heat. I know I myself had to edit a bunch of times what I had written here i.e., tone down my words while still getting what I feel across in my post.

But, your take on this is just a very tough sell for me. Mrs AN's actions are already explained very well and far more simply via Evolutionary Psychology: Find a steady reliable man to marry and commit to while taking on a lover to have hot sex with. Google 'Cads and Dads'; Mrs AN's actions are TEXTBOOK.

It does not mean Mrs AN doesn't feel immense guilt for what she did, and so she finally confessed. But still, Mrs AN is back to the regularly scheduled program. She wants to go back to the stability of her marriage and for Mr AN to get with the program here, and accept the fact that he is the Dad, not the Cad, so to speak.

Mrs AN's actions in regards to sex now with her H are completely unacceptable. Mr AN should file for D.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:32 PM, Monday, March 20th]

As part of MC following WW disclosure of her PA back in August 2020,

I read this as disclosure was in August 2020. It's now March 2023. That's nearly 3 years. Her affair was 18 months long.

Edited to add..

DDay August 2020.

So..nearly 3 years.

[This message edited by HellFire at 8:23 PM, Monday, March 20th]

I'm confused on the 18 months since dday thing?

Did I misread something?

Lurkingsoul- Too far of a threadjack. So I will leave it as a ws will be able to understand it later. They aren’t going to understand being forced into sexual situations. One is healthy the other is not. But I am going to leave it at that.

Also BFTG- I also find religion can be problematic in many ways. But that same religion is telling her she needs to do her duty. She maybe holding onto it as an excuse but if you have ever been to sex therapy, you will find they help you see healthy.

Full disclosure- h and I went after his affair. I couldn’t reengage in our sex life. He felt this was a cop out because we had hb after mine. It helped us tremendously restore our physical intimacy and then some. We did have to sell the house, because of the affair sex in it. Emotional intimacy was crucial for the rebuilding. It’s such an immersive experience and one I don’t talk freely about here because it is hard for people to not see it as hypocritical after having my own affair.

Especially when everyone is hellbent on it being logical.

His was so much longer and so much more involved it’s fruitless to try and debate some of those aspects here. People can’t relate it because it’s a mad hatter situation.

But trust me when I say I think what she has going on can be helped if she wants it to be.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:14 PM, Monday, March 20th]

Did I misread something

No. He's posted his dday as August 2020. It's the affair that was 18 months long.

I apologize, hellfire. I misread his initial post. This whole time I thought they were 18 months out but it was an 18 month affair. My apologies.

AN can correct me if I am wrong but it does feel like they are just now getting around to this aspect. They are having conversations one would expect them to have had earlier. If she wasn’t focused on this aspect before, it’s not strange it’s not fixed?

hikingout: I know sexual coercion is unhealthy. Not denying that. Anyway, thanks for answering my question. It has been helpful.

The affair was 18 months.

Dday was 2020.

He has been in reconciliation for several years.

But, your take on this is just a very tough sell for me. Mrs AN's actions are already explained very well and far more simply via Evolutionary Psychology: Find a steady reliable man to marry and commit to while taking on a lover to have hot sex with. Google 'Cads and Dads'; Mrs AN's actions are TEXTBOOK.

Last response. I have other things I need to finish today!!

See, for me we are not in the 60’s and 70’s. This idea that women need a man to provide for them is often antiquated.

I made more money than my husband and did far more of my domestic share. I could have had stability without him. We didn’t even have kids left at home.

However, who knows if that’s the case here or not.

My point is only it doesn’t fit every template. When I began working on my marriage it was because I wanted my husband specifically. I stayed after he cheated for the same reason. I made some horrible decisions and disregarded him, but at the end of the day I learned there is no one else I want to do life with.

So forgive me if I do think that many times a ws realizes what they had, what they did, and are horrified with themselves over that decision.

But I can’t proclaim that is the same for Mrs AN. But it isn’t always the way you are stating it either.

Okay, good luck all. I need to step out and give this some air for AN.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:52 PM, Monday, March 20th]