SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Have at it people! I'm listening!

Bravo! I think you're on exactly the right track.

You know that gif where Seinfeld is sitting on the couch with a bucket of popcorn and raises his fist in agreement? That's what I'm doing right now to what BraveSirRobin said.

Hey there AN. I just read through the complete post of all you've talked of. I Will say this, you definitely have tried your heart out. Way more than I would be willing to. I'm pretty Blunt about things, my wife can vouch for that!

I'm not trying nor meaning any disrespect to you or your family with what I say now.

1. WW did cheat on you, no doubt. Did so in a manner you never saw. Yet looked you in the eyes every day for all those months and said I love you so much. Laid in and shared your bed. Never did you know this.

2. The damage was done to you and your family from the inception of the affair. It will never be same or ever be repaired. Can she turn the clock back and undo all this? No. All BS's know that.

3. She cannibalized your heart and emotions period. The first day she came "clean" with you in IC, the marriage was done. This was a new woman you'd never met. The fact you even stated that your agency to reconcile was taken off the table by her and the therapist is a shame. You were pushed into a corner, albeit, most never get the real truth, or as much as you did, immediately as you did.

4. The damage she caused to the children will haunt them their entire lives. Im sure you and they have talked of all this and they have given their thoughts as well. No one can doubt the veracity of the love you or the WW have for your children. Sadly they are lifelong collateral damage in all this.

You have spent countless days weighing in here on this forum, confused, hurt and lost as to what to do. Attempting a reconciliation that you were pushed into, without being asked if its what you wanted or not. Still not sure of this is the way. You've given 2 reasons that still can't be fixed in your heart and mind. What any WS does to their partners is incomprehensible, abhorrent and probably causes the worst pain a person can experience outside the loss of their child!

She begged forgiveness, to give her a chance yet instead of yielding to you, cometely submitting to you the man she claims is her everything, she still states conditions to you. That is wholly contrary to true reconciliation. How can she ever be considered completely yours heart and soul and a safe partner again if she is dictating conditions to you? Did she dictate conditions to her AP? she willingly lied and decieved you for almost 2 years, 2 years! Now she has this divine revelation that she has done something horrible and must seek absolution from you! Yes I know you've already exploded many times about this, but here you sit not happy. Still looking for guidance.

The heart knows what it knows, why so many people who don't match up still marry, because they fell in love regardless. Your heart knows where its all going. You know, you can never unhear all this. You can never unsee those things in your head. That no matter how many times you hold her and she says I love you and only you and you make love to her, he is there in the back of your mind laughing at you with her. We are all different and for some, forgiveness comes easy, for others it never comes. At this juncture if you still question yourself, then nothing anyone here or any other forum or therapist office can help what has happened. There, sometimes in the course of life come things we must face that once broken, can't be fixed.

I ask this question to you now. You need not answer this to anyone but yourself. There are to paths ahead of of you. One is what people consider the "right " path, reconciliation, the other path is divorce. The one path that allows you to end this misery of facing a person you shared your soul with, that ripped it out and destroyed it. That happiness for you is to let go of the pain and misery and just be happy being you period. To some day find another person who will love you for just you no conditions. Question really is, would you rather be right, or rather be happy.

My prayers for you and your family through all this. Peace be unto you.

[This message edited by Dagrump at 4:06 PM, Tuesday, March 21st]

I agree BSR described very well one of the dynamics of the sub in a dom/sub relationships. I understand not approving it, but we deal with what is, not what should be.

*****

I'm not afraid to call 'if you do _____, I'll do _____' and ultimatum. I agree that ultimata - boundaries - are part(s) of the foundation of R.

But the recommendation to the WS to become a sex goddess (usually - I don't remember seeing this advice given to a BH - seems to me to be a recommendation to sex-bomb the BS. Worse, it's a recommendation to the BS to believe the sex-bombing.

If a BS believes the sex-bombing, he tells his W that she can pull the wool over his eyes if she gives good ____ (you fill in the blank). Too many people on this thread are telling AN to sell himself out for a few blowjobs. How is that good advice?

*****

Also, notice that this thread has a number of men making generalizations about women and women saying those generalizations don't apply to them. That's compounded by no woman saying it applies to her.

That's a violation of guidelines.

It's also a violation of good thinking. If I said, 'Aardvarks are _____', and an aardvark told me 'I'm not that way,' I think I'd change my view, not double down by tecontinuing to argue that aardvarks are _____.

*****

AN, I think you've got a good plan, one that you're ready to execute.

There's no 'completion' of R until your or your W's end. That's the test of R - that you're together until death. R is a process of resolving the issues around the A. But life presents issues that aren't related to the A day after day, and those issues need to be resolved. R morphs into M.

R requires working in yourselves and your M. M requires working on yourselves and your M. It gets easier in many ways, but the issues keep coming up, and they keep needing resolutions.

If R works, you'll probably eventually experience a recognition that your A issues are getting resolved, and some day you'll realize you sense that you've R'ed enough to say 'R is done', but you get to call when that is.

I didn't really understand the next part fully until I read the perspectives offered by HikingOut and her own motivations in her A. WW attempted to explain that the A was more about herself than the AP. That she did not find the AP "particularly attractive" or special at all. She actually says she loathed him at times and didn't really think much of him or care what he thought of her at all.

The letter was very much focussed on me, our M, and then our family. That she was so very sorry that she was putting me though this, and completely understood if I wanted out, would do whatever I asked to make the process as smooth as possible should I wish to D, but was begging me to give her the chance to repent and change her ways.

WW explained how IC had helped her see that she had lost her way over the past many years, turning away from her faith, leaving her rudderless, and in a place where her "darker impulses" were allowed to flourish by her.

When you think about it, it stands to reason that your WW actually cared less about the AP's opinion than yours. She could dump him at any time. She couldn't do that with you. Se could try on and then reject the persona, and it sounds like that's pretty much what happened. She tried on this persona, didn't want it, and then made arrangements to confess to you what she had done.

I can't speak to this from a WW perspective, but I can tell you that after more than thirty years of marriage, part of my recovery centered around trying to rebuild my identity, to figure out who I am when I'm not wearing a hat for someone else: wife, mother, daughter, sister, employee, etc. When this bomb went off in my life, it just seemed to destroy everything and left me feeling like nothing mattered, like none of those other "hats" justified my existence.

It's hard to describe, but rebuilding identity ended up becoming the centerpiece of therapy for me for like two years. It's like those "hats" give you purpose and when they're proved to be unimportant, you just don't know why you're here. Infidelity often results in an existential crisis, and for me, this was what it looked like... obliteration of all that I had been because those "hats" just couldn't offer enough sustenance.

I think this is different than the "masks" that WS's often wear to protect them from being known. This is just my own crazy way of painting a mental picture, but "hats" are about purpose and the way we want to see ourselves. "Masks" are about keeping others from seeing how flawed we are and keeping them at arm's length. Either can result in the creation of personas. I've often said that my fWH was like a man with a big bag of masks while he was cheating, and in actuality for a lot longer than that. For him, it came from a place of deep insecurity and disbelief that he could be accepted for who he was. Sometimes we see WS's who are so invested in those masks that NOTHING will make them reveal themselves. It's very sad, but it's not something that we can ever fix FOR someone else. They have to dig deep and figure out who they are, what they stand for, and then be willing to be SEEN for exactly that.

None of us can "diagnose" your WW. All we can do is share our thoughts and experience. But does what you've said here in your post resonate for me? Yeah, it makes sense.

I am not asking for anything more than for WW to work on herself to improve her mental health generally, and to work with sex therapist on obtaining a healthier view of sex for her own sake. I make no demands as to our SL such as sex acts or frequency, other than to greatly desire to build a new healthier SL that works for our relationship. And if we find that it is clear that the sexual incompatibilities are too great to overcome to our mutual satisfaction, then we call time on the M.

I think you'll probably do okay with that so long as you keep emphasizing healthy connection and avoid making "the transaction". Chances are, you'll end up coming back around to clear up misperceptions more than once on this subject. People have a tendency to catastrophize when they're under stress. That holds for WS's and BS's alike, I think. In moments where it's not exactly smooth sailing, either or both of you may doubt the other's motives. If you keep your goals in mind though, it can go a long way toward getting you back on track after a bad day.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:21 PM, Tuesday, March 21st]

This has been a great discussion and I think that AN has considered and processed the input really well and seems keenly situationally aware and has been very patient with all our inter-thread cross talk. I, myself, have learned a lot and especially appreciated the perspectives of Hikingout and BSR et al.

I think, BS should be recommended

to talk to former Waywards who has recovered, reformed and/or reconciled with their partners to understand the mind of their WS and their behavior during and after the affair. This can help BS to put things in right perspective and help them in their decision making and also, in their healing process. It clearly worked in this particular case. HO's post really helped OP to better understand his WW's behavior and actions.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 5:51 PM, Tuesday, March 21st]

I can believe the "loathe" part, especially bc in her warped view, he was like the devil leading her astray.

But the not finding him attractive? I find that one very convenient. Right up there with wasn't any good in bed, had a small weiner, could only last a minute or 2 and he had ED. All of which are things that BS are lied to about on a regular basis along with "I wasnt even all that attracted to him."

[This message edited by GoldenR at 7:17 PM, Tuesday, March 21st]

OK, so what? She could do it with her AP?

I don't care about anything else, she literally opened herself to another man and did so in ways she has no intent to do with OP.

Let's start with her disrespect...

No, let's just start with the fact that she is not a woman anyone should be married to at the moment and most likely never again...

She had her chance as wife and she F'd it away, literally...

... Duplicate

[This message edited by DictumVeritas at 6:37 PM, Tuesday, March 21st]

GoldenR: "Not finding him/her attractive" is actually a real thing. I once dated a girl I wasn't attracted to. I did it because it was convenient for me. I was looking for a date and she was available and interested in me. Eventually, I broke up with her because I was still not attracted to her and that whole situation was totally unfair to her and was hurting her. So, its totally possible she wasn't attracted to him and his attempts to humiliate and cuckold her husband through his sick requests might be the reason for her 'loathe' against him. That made him even less attractive to her.

Lurking -

Biiiig difference. Did you risk your marriage and go back for illicit sex for 3 years with this girl? Did you do things with her you wouldn't do with anyone else? Did she open up a side of you that you fought your whole life to keep repressed?

I just don't see how someone that just wasn't attractive at all could have that immediate power over anyone.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 6:37 PM, Tuesday, March 21st]

I would bet money the real truth is that she was in love with him.

We would need to get into the whole dynamics of affairs but when women begin them the emotions, the secrecy, the thrill intensity their love.

When a woman is in love she will do just about anything.

Affairs are very unfair to men because it’s almost like the affair partner gets bonus points in the competition.

Hard to compete with new and exciting. And those feelings intensify the sex for them which intensifies the sex for the guy too.

This can be true for cheating men but usually the men are just happy with new sex. Doesn’t really matter if she is married or not.

Somebody mentioned the adultery forum. One funny common story I noticed was the women who brought the guy home to the marital bed. The men would actually be scared and nervous and not enjoy it as much. It was the women who wanted to do it as the betrayal intensified everything for them.

Relationship "expert" Ester Perel says "women are attracted to the forbidden"

Only AN know for sure but the guy is probably relatively physically attractive.

I could ramble.

Covid kind of saved the day here.

It gave her space. They had to interact in non sexual ways which cleared her head and gave the counselor an opening to bring her back to reality.

I can believe she looks back at it now in disgust.

That’s why this place and others including the few books for men there are always give the harsh advice.

You have to shatter them out of their fantasy feelings world and back to reality and consequences.

Not always but men just need to be caught.

Unless they are serial cheaters. That’s usually enough.

I still think her IC did a good job. If she was still lying and cheating and he was having to investigate and fight with her and find the AP it would not be any better.

The fact she came clean in her own and returned to the marriage without having to be dragged helps not harms.

There is just no good way to deal with betrayal at this level.

At least this way (while awkward) they have a chance.

The sex issue that’s more complicated.

The sex issue isn’t as bad for men. If a man never gave oral but gave it to the affair partner he might make the wife take a bath or shave but he Dam well knows his head is going to be buried for a long time.

AN stay in marriage counseling. You don’t have to recommit to anything and fire them if they suck but you need someone and a designated time to help you communicate.

GoldenR: I guess, only fWS can answer to this.

I would bet money the real truth is that she was in love with him.

Agree, that is exactly what I think. Except I would change it to some form of limerance. I don’t believe most people actually fall in love with their AP, but that the dopamine from the forbidden aspects of it that you speak of and from pretending to be in this other role. It’s a confusing feeling we call love but there was a part of me that knew it wasn’t healthy love.

And the resentments and entitlement, and false beliefs, the ws has to take responsibility for all of it. Someone said exit affair. I think of mine as an exit affair. I was done, there is no doubt in my mind.

The problem is I was exiting for mostly my part of not fixing the relationship and blaming it on him. An exit affair is most common with women, but often it comes from lack of self awareness and advocating for themselves effectively in their relationship. When full accountability was reached, I clearly could see I constructed my own unhappiness, and upon exiting would have done more of the same. Again, no baring on my husband.

These days we talk about everything and I have witnessed him making adjustments as needed. (And vice versa) We just didn’t know how to talk to each other before.

Golden R- my AP was 20 years older. He looked like a grandpa. I was 41 at that time. If I had been dating and single this man would not have even been on my radar.

Affairs are about convenience and opportunity most often. I think some people have affairs with attractive people, but the vast majority of us do not. We have an affair with who is available, and then project a big ole fantasy world upon them. Every time I saw a pic of the AP I kept thinking "THIS is who you feel all this for?" But women especially will rely on this "emotional connection" they have spawned in their head.

And the vast majority happen in a slippery slope situation where we are talking to someone too closely. This woman talked to him for 7 months before it went to a physical affair, it’s not out of range to think if she was so hot for what he had to offer that would have been immediate.

But, mark this down, cause I am about to agree with you on this:

I don’t think she loathed him either during the affair. It’s a lot of what confused is saying, whether she put lipstick on a pig like I did or not, she believed it for some period of time.

With that said, it’s not beyond my scope of imagination she loathed him afterwards. I loathed myself for what I did. While my focus wasn’t on blaming the AP in he aftermath, I certainly loathed him too. We were both guilty. It’s just I had to move on and focus on fixing me.

Usually, when we hate a crime we did we also don’t appreciate our co-conspirator.

Lastly, I want to underline something because I see a lot of people talking about continuing MC. I agree they should. My advice here only centers on firing theirs and get a new one due to AN’s discomfort with her. He feels she was a do-conspirator because she knew before he did. I can’t say I would feel differently.

AN, I think you are looking at it right. It’s perfectly fine to divorce out of lack of compatibility. It always was and always will be. If she is in agreement her attitudes about sex are unhealthy, that’s at least something you can work with.

Keep standing up for yourself and doing what you need to do to heal. If she does the same you maybe able to R. If not, you are now on a path where you are focusing on you and I believe that’s best and quickest path to get to where you are going.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:33 PM, Tuesday, March 21st]

I would bet money the real truth is that she was in love with him.

I agree. Or she thought she was in love with him.

And,if that's the case,she needs to be honest with her husband.

Hellfire, I agree with you. I just want to point out in this case she had the benefit of hindsight.

Same thing for me. Going to therapy before I confessed caused me to see everything a lot differently by the time I confessed.

There were two truths, one that I thought as it was happening, and the one I could see with clarity after having some benefit of therapy.

I am not sure she is lying but I maybe not spending enough time evaluating what was happening at the time versus seeing it for what it was. In IC they want you to remain in your current perspective because that one is more reliable to work with.

I struggle to express that myself at times, because it’s hard to understand for myself how far down that rabbit hole I went. And the sheer abandonment in which I went.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:47 PM, Tuesday, March 21st]

HO -

It's been a while so I don't remember clearly...

But didn't you know yours for a good while before the A started?

My point was she met him and BOOM she was his. I just don't see that happening with someone she wasn't attracted to.

She talked to him for seven months before it went physical.

That was probably more than I ever talked to the AP in my situation.I saw him at a work event once a year for 3 or 4 years. Group dinners, lunches, long business meetings. Talked to him occasionally on the phone about work.

When the affair started, we had spent more time together on that annual trip. Nothing physical happened but we went home and began texting every day like maniacs and met up about a month in, and then continued to talk for another month when he had a dday. Then I still had to complete a final project with him, but did it all through e-mail with both spouses monitoring. There was no breach but altogether I knew him about five years.

So yes I knew him but it didn’t go on closely for seven months. I actually see her affair as more gradual than mine. Mine just happened to be conducted mostly long distance. Outside of the one meet up, it was all texts, one video call, one regular phone call.

But he was my soulmate

I was the dumbest person alive. Yet, ordinarily I am anything but.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:56 PM, Tuesday, March 21st]

I'm no expert on dom/sub dynamics, but I think the problem here is that submission comes first and opens the door for release of inhibition. She only felt able to let go because someone else was at the wheel. The logical solution would be to submit to her BH -- but as hikingout observes, you can't just apply logic to these underlying traumas. She gave up power and it ruined her life. She gave it up to someone who was mysterious and controlling, which is neither the dynamic she has with her husband nor the dynamic she wants. It may not be what he wants, either. I know my husband wants a partner, not a sub.

The idea that these are mutually exclusive is the mistake both you and the OP's WW are making. It is possible to be both. In fact, for the long term D/S relationship to survive, it MUST be both.

That said, it is clear she was/is unwilling to submit to the OP...or worse, she doesn't want to want to submit to the OP...or even worse than that, her AP/affair has poisoned that well permanently.

Hiking out: As per one of the OPs recent posts, her affair started the moment her AP made comment on her 'sexy legs'. From that moment on it was all EA until it became physical few months later. So, affair did seem to have started instantly, rather than gradually.