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Especially when everyone is hellbent on it being logical.

Like I said earlier, brains are just electrified meat! Sometimes they go haywire.

To Hikingout and Sacredsoulsister:

I agree with a lot you’re saying and believe the answer is a combination of the various views with unknowns about Mrs AN In debate, but…

I have to respectfully question your stance that ALL affairs are NOT about the AP.

I don't recall saying anything like that. Did I? Or did you include me because I said "Yeah, what hikingout said"?

I’d steer clear of sexual ultimatums or anything resembling a sexual ultimatum. I believe it would absolutely repel Mrs AN, or any woman for that matter, further away. It’s a turn off. Not sexy. Not romantic. It’s paying the rent with sex. It kills spontaneity. It’s objectifying.

I’d represent the conditions AN wants going forward, not as an ultimatum, and especially not as a sexual ultimatum, but rather more tenderly, poetically, lovingly and wholistically-as in mutual growth.

I’d replace crude references to SEX, the mechanics of sex, sex acts and,

"cake…I want my fucking cake", I want you to get your cake on and I want to lick the bowl…

with more loving terms such as:

"desire, intimacy, passion, specialness"

"Here’s what I want, for us, going forward. I want authenticity. I want the whole Mrs AN. I want the real Mrs AN, not a broken fraction. I want the best of all aspects of you. I want you to desire me more than any other. I want deeper more profound, more sincere, more forthright emotional and physical intimacy. I want us to make each other feel special, part of something special, special to each other. I want a Mrs AF who has a healthy, thriving relationship with herself, first and foremost.

That is what I want for both of us as we rebuild this marriage"

Something like that. Speak to her like someone you love and care deeply for. Not as a sex object. No woman would respond to some of the shit being laid down around here.

Second tweak:

{snip}

Mrs AF was awakened by her self-a self awakening. NOT by the AP. Nothing was learned from the AP. The AP is a nobody, a manikin, could have been anybody, just as Hikingout so very well explained many times here.

Come at her with crude sexual demands and she’s going to be repulsed further into repression.

I think RealityBlows has really hit upon the best approach if the OP decides to renew his R efforts. Maybe he won't. That's a legitimate path forward as well. His second concern about going forward has been really well-fleshed out here, but that wasn't his only issue. There was also the way he felt ambushed in therapy and having felt duped into "pick me dancing" while he was still unawares. That's something that has to be processed as well, and even though we do see many practicing therapists recommending this kind of in-session truth-bombing, it speaks volumes to the lack of connection and the dearth of emotional intimacy that was already a part of this relationship. Sort of a hallmark of the infidelity experience, I suppose, that disconnect from the WS. It's one that most of us probably recognize, but a hurdle no less.

Assuming for the sake of discussion that the R path continues, at least for awhile, the plus side of RealityBlow's framing here is that if enough emotional intimacy can be established to restart a meaningful sex life, the pair-bonding effects of sex can deepen the emotional intimacy. It's kind of like priming a well pump. You start with connection and closeness which helps get the sex flowing and then the physical intimacy causes better emotional intimacy and connection. For more information on the biochemical reaction of good sex, OP, try looking up such key words as "sex, pair-bonding, oxytocin, vasopressin, cuddle homones".

I think it's absolutely possible to restart the engine. That will still leave you with tons of processing to do, but there's no shortcut on that IME. Whether we R or D, we still have to deal with our injuries and heal ourselves.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 12:39 AM, Tuesday, March 21st]

Hi everyone,

Thanks again for your input and discussion. I apologise for my tardiness in responding, but lots of things are swirling around here at the moment, with lots of moving parts (not just relating to M and R).

There has been lots of discussion as to WW’s possible motivations for the A, and while I don’t pretend to understand her thinking and internal justifications, I can describe the evolution of the A, and how it progressed, and then finally imploded.

I have been deliberately vague on the details of the A up until now out of a misguided sense of protecting WW etc, but I think that to prevent further speculation and help focus discussions, a description of the A dynamics would be helpful.

So according to the timeline, WW considers the EA component of the A to have started around in March of 2019. WW and I attended a more formal social function of mutual friends of AP, WW and I. WW had decided to get "frocked up" for the occasion, with a new cocktail style dress and heels etc. Future AP made a comment at that occasion on "how good the girls looked (OBS and WW), and commented that WW had "fantastic legs" etc and should show them off more often, and apparently during the night continued to compliment and make suggestive remarks to WW when out of OBS and my earshot. WW apparently enjoyed the attention.

WW timeline then shows that at other social events after that time, she took care to dress for AP, fishing for compliments, and the talk became much more suggestive. AP, WW and I were part of a number of different social groups, and were contacts in social messenger groups, which enabled contact to be established between them. flirty flirty messages and suggestive conversation then ensued.

The A dynamic then developed further into WW performing "tasks" set by AP designed to "push her boundaries" and "explore her dirty girl/naughty side". Initially the tasks would be to wear specific clothing to social occasions, being asked to undertake tasks wearing certain underwear or without, requesting (and receiving evidence of same) etc. Their relationship continued to intensify with WW feeling she needed to continue to "up the ante" to keep it going.

Pretty soon they had settled into a "role play" of a dominant/subservient relationship, with the "tasks" becoming more and more sexually oriented, and chat becoming more and more sexualised. WW assumed a role of willing participant, submitting to his wants and desires.

This let inexorably to the A becoming physical with the aforementioned BJ being given to AP.

Once the A was physical, the Dom/Sub dynamic continued to intensify, with WW submitting to AP’s direction.

This continued with increasing the variety of sex acts etc. (annd everything else you can probably imagine) until the Covid lockdowns of 2020.

At this point, the A was forced to return to EA, and is the period that consisted of sexting, photo exchange, and from what I can tell, the inclusion of tasks that unknowingly involved me. ie. denying, or taking suggestive pics with me in background, or talking about having sex with BS imagining it was with each other (really really difficult to read) (and much much more).

It is clear though that the lockdowns made it hard for the A to maintain the intensity, with AP becoming bored and flipping between no contact and pushing to meet in contradiction of the health orders. In the weeks leading up to her decision to involve IC and then DDay itself, the frequency of contact dropped and AP was basically disengaging (which contributed much to the "depression" I was picking up on.

During this time, WW and AP referred to each other by middle names (no idea why), with WW categorising it as "part of the role play". Lockdowns apparently shocked her back to reality as the whole existential crisis of the became clear. WW recognised the importance of the real (her family) vs the fantasy (A).

Not sure if this is helpful, but I think in this case the context is important.

That outline is pretty typical in terms of the etiology of an affair. Cliche, really, a classic pattern of a married woman with a profound Madonna/whore complex.

What would be more salient in terms of the ability of posters to offer advice is what your WW says she was thinking and feeling that led her to take those acts. The lying to you started the moment she dressed specifically for the benefit of the AP. She must have told you thousands of discreet individual lies thereafter, all for the purpose of carrying on an affair of this magnitude over such a long time period. Has she discussed why she decided to disrespect you to such a giant degree?

In particular, I'm curious to know how she (in real time) jibed the actions she was choosing in pursuit of her A with the precepts of her so-called "faith", the "faith" she now invokes to deny even normal marital intimacy with you. What in her "faith" leads her now to abrogate her role as a spouse to you? Does her religious belief not include obligations of a spouse to be faithful, loyal, supportive, affectionate, pleasing, etc. with her husband?

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 2:17 AM, Tuesday, March 21st]

I want to add to that last part.

You said with the IC’s help she gave you the messages between them as well as the final contact messages.

When she says you won. How did you win. Was he saying "I love you I’ll leave my wife right now"

If not. Even if he was saying I love you let’s keep this going then she did not have a real choice. She was just a side piece.

If that is true it’s probably what her IC helped her figure out.

You also say she gave you a letter at the same time with all the reasons she wanted to stay with you.

Was it compelling?

Was it about you or was it about kids, family religion?

That’s important as your kids will not be there forever. The relationship now needs to be focused on the two of you.

I just want to say I think her IC did a good job. She should stay with them.

You even said your wife said the IC is still putting pressure on her. She may be trying to still help you. The IC is supposed to be on your wife’s side. That’s their job.

It put you in a very odd spot as everything was kind of wrapped in a bow when you were informed. You were in shock hurt and they were like "well we took care of everything let’s get to reconciling"

Would it have been better to discover it on your own and most people here do?

I don’t think so.

There is no nice way to steal your life savings or molest your children.

Your wife’s IC gave her a better fighting chance.

I would also stick with the marriage counseling. You and your wife have problems communicating with each other. That’s the main reason when people need a marriage counselor.

Marriage counselors can be bad when you get a bad one or when you are in immediate danger. Example the affair is still ongoing.

I also wholeheartedly think you need a sex therapist. Not just for your wife but for yourself.

You seem to have a hard time being honest about your sexual needs.

I have some further opinions but a focus on the end of the affair and what has happened afterward is always one of the most important details needed to give better advice.

Also the letter would be illuminating as she prepared it with her counselor so it may give a real good understanding where her head is at.

I’m so sorry for the hellhole your wife put you in.

If the marriage ends it will always be because of her affair and nothing else.

The affair was enough to divorce. However, you initially chose to stay. You can change your mind if you need to.

Not having adequate intimacy, sexual or otherwise is also a realistic reason to D. Even more so after her affair.

It is not an ultimatum or evil to calmly, directly say these are my needs moving forward and to acknowledge that they have changed post affair. You are not a twisted outlier wanting more. Particularly because more, in your case, seems to be more like average in the modern world. But even if it is above average it's OK if that's what you need. If anyone has offered an ultimatum on sex or lack of it, it seems to be her, not you.

You don't need to be a bully about it but reading all your posts I highly doubt you ever would be. You are more likely the type to feel like you're being an ass or a bully when you are actually just starting to be direct enough at last.

Leave a bit of room for interpretation so that there may be some compromise in what sexual intimacy you create. But be direct enough so she knows it can't be what the past was. That room for collaboration will hopefully lower defensiveness on her part. And the sex therapist sounds like a great idea because this is all more twisted in her mind than the average person. She's going to need help from somewhere.

And I think there have to be plenty of "sex can be fun and fulfilling for Christians too" resources out there. I can guarantee that not all religious people are lights out for sex types. Lol.

If she doesn't decide to sincerely work on it, you'll be at another decision point.

I know this is not a revelation but thought a summary might be helpful.

Just to let you kbow, I have seen some stories similar to yours so don't let people tell you this is the worst they have ever seen.

Most successful reconciliations require empathy from the WW. The advice that you need to be the one driving the reconciliation is contrary to most things I am familiar with.

AN,

I am curious to know the basic dynamics of your courtship. Was she the pursuer, or were you the one doing the pursuing?

Am asking this as an extension of my previous posting that you want her to WANT you, as she wanted her AP.

Sure, her AP complimented her, but I suspect that she was the one doing the pursuing in her A. As you had posted, she wanted to 'up the ante' with her AP, which (I assume) she has never done with you.

RR

Why was she so fiercely loyal to him? She could have pretended to follow his orders while not following them. She could have easily lied to him.

There was a story here where wife's AP had a fetish to cuckold and humiliate wife's husband. He urged wife to deny many things to her husband. She always agreed to his requests but in real, she never followed any of his requests except for one. She just couldn't pretend to follow this particular request. Otherwise, she would have been caught lying by her AP. This disloyalty from her towards her AP proved to her husband that this affair was not about Ap or husband. It was all about her. This realization did help him overcome his pain and work on reconciliation. Also, wife in this story was ready to walk extra mile to win over husband.

Why was she so fiercely loyal to him? Why couldn't she lie to him? She could have easily lied to him and get away with that. He had no means to verify her claims.

What is this winning talk? Its sounds as if during her whole affair she was thinking of leaving you for him. But, later she realized AP was never going to leave his wife and so,he was never in the race to begin with. So, you WON by default as there was no real contender.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 1:56 PM, Tuesday, March 21st]

I agree you didn't win. Her AP wasn't going to leave his wife, so she never had him as a real option.

Did she feel as if she were in love with him?

HO:

I've been pondering our colloquy in light of Mr. AN's last update. Clearly, Mrs. AN has some deeply rooted issues that appear to be grounded in rigid religious beliefs, probably in large part rooted in her FOO. I agree 100% with your thesis that, to fix this, she needs a lot of good therapy, including good sex therapy. I also agree that, if she wanted to fix it and if she were to engage in good therapy, she probably could.

The short way to explain my resistance to that concept is that, per the posts by Mr. AN to date, Mrs. AN doesn't want to be fixed. Not only does she not want to be fixed, she denies that she has a problem in need of fixing. Her position is that the A was a wrinkle in her time-space continuum, an isolated anomaly, and that henceforth she will double down to be an even stricter and sterner version of her prior self.

Clearly, that is the wrong approach. Clearly her prior self repressed a ton of stuff that came whooshing out the moment there was a scratch on the surface. Reverting to her prior self creates the risk that it will happen again one day, like a dry drunk toughing it out sans therapy until he stumbles and drinks again. In the meantime, it guarantees that Mr. AN will be sexually frustrated in the marriage.

Thus, for the purposes of providing advice to Mr. AN, what else can we tell him so long as she clings to the position that there is nothing wrong with her sexuality in need of fixing? That in fact being more sexual would violate the tenets of her religious faith?

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 2:28 PM, Tuesday, March 21st]

Why was she so fiercely loyal to him? She could have pretended to follow his orders while not following them. She could have easily lied to him.

If this was a true dom/sub dynamic, that would be very difficult to do. The rush of the affair was enmeshed with her submission to the AP. Giving up control IS the high; fake it, and the high vanishes, too.

I don't say this as an excuse, but for context. It also squares with what the WW says about feeling like she was "someone else" in the affair. Once the sub frenzy passed, it probably became very hard for her to understand or accept what she was thinking. Unfortunately, she seems to be conflating the relaxation of sexual inhibition with her surrender of control. Because she understands how destructive that submission was to her husband, life, and marriage, she doesn't want to think like that anymore. That makes it harder for her to do the sex acts that were enabled by that submissive mindset.

BraveSirRobin: is it possible that she is scared of losing control if she sexually opens up again and could become submissive a result?

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 2:26 PM, Tuesday, March 21st]

So now the hard stuff.....

What are my feelings around all of this, and what do I think happened in the A?

First things first - what was in the letter?

Well, the letter was very personal, and I think revealing of vulnerability and very compelling. Initially the letter was essentially a confession and heartfelt unreserved apology. She confirmed that she did this - it was not because of anything I did or did not do, and that it was her own confused and broken thinking that took her to a place where she was about to be part of the A. She confirmed that she had engaged in an A, that it began as an EA, progressed to PA, with the Covid lockdowns "bringing her to her senses as to what she was doing to me, our M as well as herself. Basically a summary of the timeline and other information. She also outed the AP.

I didn't really understand the next part fully until I read the perspectives offered by HikingOut and her own motivations in her A. WW attempted to explain that the A was more about herself than the AP. That she did not find the AP "particularly attractive" or special at all. She actually says she loathed him at times and didn't really think much of him or care what he thought of her at all.

The letter was very much focussed on me, our M, and then our family. That she was so very sorry that she was putting me though this, and completely understood if I wanted out, would do whatever I asked to make the process as smooth as possible should I wish to D, but was begging me to give her the chance to repent and change her ways.

WW explained how IC had helped her see that she had lost her way over the past many years, turning away from her faith, leaving her rudderless, and in a place where her "darker impulses" were allowed to flourish by her.

Re-reading that section of the letter, I believe that the A was calling herself out that the A was a reflection of her broken and warped attitude towards sex and intimacy.

Why was she so fiercely loyal to him? Why couldn't she lie to him? She could have easily lied to him and get away with that. He had no means to verify her claims.

I honestly don't believe she was. Reading the messages between WW and AP, discussions with WW with the benefit of HikingOuts perspective, I believe that WW was able to allow herself to do those things with AP exactly because she didn't respect him or be loyal to him. The A was very much all about her. She did not care what AP thought of her, what he thought of the things she was willing to do or have done to her. At times, I can clearly read the contempt that exists between the lines of the texts.

I believe it's clear she wasn't doing the tasks etc. for him - she was doing it for her. he was just the convenient excuse or vehicle/catalyst to do so.

The flipside of that is that she very much DOES care about what I think of her. You are right that she didn't have to confess to me - I was not at all suspicious, and as far as I know, neither the AP or OBS were going to out her. In fact, WW outing the AP to me led to the OBS being made aware of the A.

WW internalized the idea (without any real justification) that I would be disgusted at the depths of her darker desires that she had spent her life resisting, or alternatively, felt that she would not be able to face me afterwards should we open that pandora's box (not exactly sure where that thinking came from - perhaps I had been too respectful and passive about my own desires and wants in the bedroom - I'm not shouldering any blame here by any means, but I think I was happy not to push out of comfort zone).

WW and I have had quite a few conversations following the blow up from the weekend which led to her sleeping in the Caravan (travel trailer). She has admitted that she knows she has a warped view of sex, one that she can't reconcile with the wife and mother persona she has carefully crafted around herself. I have told her that I am not willing to return to the status quo (go me!) and that our old M and SL is dead - killed by her A. That if we are to move forward, we need to build new M and SL that fit our post A lives. I believe we are on our way with the non-sex parts of the M, but that our SL needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

So......

Going forward, what is happening.

1. No commitment being made in MC for the foreseeable future. No kicking the can down the road.
2. WW has committed to entering into sex therapy (she has stated that she refuses to "become the whore" again, but is in agreement that her worldview of sex is not healthy for her or our M (or any other relationship she has in the future should I not wish to continue with R). I do not want the
3. IC for WW to continue with focus on her mental health and examining the schism she created between A WW and M WW, to better understand why she has the hang-ups and neuroses she has around sex and intimacy generally, what were the conditions that have led her to those, and what can be done to bring her to a healthier head space.
4. I will continue with my IC to help me to be able to share my desires and needs in a more open and straightforward manner. To learn how not to hold back on my thoughts on things "for the sake of marital harmony" etc.
5. That I can't see us reaching a point where we can consider R complete in the foreseeable future. We both need to work on the basis that we are always a work in progress, and that I can't see our M surviving unless we both commit to continuing to move forward.

So basically that's my line in the sand. I am not asking for anything more than for WW to work on herself to improve her mental health generally, and to work with sex therapist on obtaining a healthier view of sex for her own sake. I make no demands as to our SL such as sex acts or frequency, other than to greatly desire to build a new healthier SL that works for our relationship. And if we find that it is clear that the sexual incompatibilities are too great to overcome to our mutual satisfaction, then we call time on the M.

WW either commits to that process or we D.

In the meantime, WW remains in the Caravan for the time being.

Have at it people! I'm listening!

AN, Have you or anyone on this thread ever entertain the idea that perhaps this was an exit affair but her religious views or some other reason won't let her initiate it so she let you know how she gave everything to another and gives nothing to you in hopes of you divorcing? Then she can run around being her middle name again. Just a thought.

If this was a true dom/sub dynamic, that would be very difficult to do. The rush of the affair was enmeshed with her submission to the AP. Giving up control IS the high; fake it, and the high vanishes, too.

I don't say this as an excuse, but for context. It also squares with what the WW says about feeling like she was "someone else" in the affair. Once the sub frenzy passed, it probably became very hard for her to understand or accept what she was thinking. Unfortunately, she seems to be conflating the relaxation of sexual inhibition with her surrender of control. Because she understands how destructive that submission was to her husband, life, and marriage, she doesn't want to think like that anymore. That makes it harder for her to do the sex acts that were enabled by that submissive mindset.

Yes! This!

Thank you for expressing this so much more eloquently that I could!

I'm no expert on dom/sub dynamics, but I think the problem here is that submission comes first and opens the door for release of inhibition. She only felt able to let go because someone else was at the wheel. The logical solution would be to submit to her BH -- but as hikingout observes, you can't just apply logic to these underlying traumas. She gave up power and it ruined her life. She gave it up to someone who was mysterious and controlling, which is neither the dynamic she has with her husband nor the dynamic she wants. It may not be what he wants, either. I know my husband wants a partner, not a sub.

Sorry, AN, didn't mean to refer to you in the third person when you're actively in the conversation! I'm composing my responses while trying to accomplish other things, so I was still in edit mode while you posted.

WW explained how IC had helped her see that she had lost her way over the past many years, turning away from
her faith, leaving her rudderless, and in a place where her "darker impulses" were allowed to flourish by her.

FWIW, I find this sentence disturbing and 180 degrees totally wrong at every level. Statements like this form the basis for a wife like Mrs. AN to equate any sexual exploration with "dark impulses" and sin, including healthy and normal sexual exploration with her husband within the marriage. In my view, Mrs. AN lost her way over the years by repressing those impulses in the context of the marriage where they ought to be joyously explored, thereby forcing them to manifest in a different and highly destructive context. Like squeezing a balloon at one end. It then becomes fat at the other end.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 3:13 PM, Tuesday, March 21st]

I'm no expert on dom/sub dynamics, but I think the problem here is that submission comes first and opens the door for release of inhibition. She only felt able to let go because someone else was at the wheel. The logical solution would be to submit to her BH -- but as hikingout observes, you can't just apply logic to these underlying traumas. She gave up power and it ruined her life. She gave it up to someone who was mysterious and controlling, which is neither the dynamic she has with her husband nor the dynamic she wants. It may not be what he wants, either. I know my husband wants a partner, not a sub.

This is a golden post. It really explains a lot about her behavior during and after the affair.