SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I think what many of us are having trouble understanding is this:

She claims to have been repulsed by him DURING the affair. I know many WW's claim repulsion AFTER the affair. But Mrs AN claims to have felt that way during the affair.

She also claims to not have enjoyed the sex.

So what was she getting from this affair?

If she wasn't in it because she had feelings for him,and she wasn't in it for the sex, what was she there for?

Some WW have mentioned she did the sex acts for currency..but if he repulsed her, what currency could she have been getting?

Common sense says she is being dishonest about at least one of these things.

She was depressed during lockdown because he was losing interest. So much so that her husband suggested therapy.

As a woman, I can understand that she might not have enjoyed all of the sex acts. Also,as a woman, I believe we are more emotional when it comes to the men we have sex with. Sure, probably not a ONS. But a man we have sex with multiple times, including the toys,lingerie,the EFFORT put in to keep the man's attention? There are feelings there.

She seems to either be in denial,or she is lying. Still. After 3 years.

[This message edited by HellFire at 1:53 PM, Sunday, March 26th]

BFTG, I think you are missing my point entirely. When a person has an affair there is an amount of currency involved. What that currency is can vary, but I don’t know why someone would go into an affair unless they felt they were getting something out of it.

It seems to some that the obvious answer is that SN just doesn’t do it for her. I suspect that theory is much too simple and convenient.

I can tell you from my own personal experience that while actively engaging in my affair, I behaved in ways that I find childish and embarrassing. I did things that I feel are appalling. Did I do them because that is who I truly am? Did I do them because I had no interest in my husband? Did I do them because I thought the AP was better than my husband? The answer is a resounding NO to all, but if you were reading text messages you would have thought I was having the time of my life. What I was getting out of the affair outweighed all of that childish behavior. I let go of a lot of my integrity in order to get the validation I thought I needed so badly. I have very little (if any) respect for the person I was during that period of my life.

I can understand the struggle of not knowing or understanding the person you married and thought you knew so well, but a big part of the problem here is that Mrs. AN has no unearthly idea of who she is at the core. The only way she will figure that out is through some deep and honest introspection that can take years to work through. She has to figure out why she took the oath she did and there are a whole lot of why’s along the way. It’s a pretty complicated knot to untangle and simplifying it to "she’s just not that into you" does everyone involved a disservice.

At the end of the day it is AN that needs to decide whether or not 1) she is doing enough to work on herself and the marriage and 2) whether he can wait for that process to happen. We have no emotionally stake in this. This is about them. Our role should be to listen and provide support drawn from our own experiences. Not to shame, speak poorly about people or situations, or make assumptions that we only have snippets of info about.

If she wasn't in it because she had feelings for him,and she wasn't in it for the sex, what was she there for?

This is what she needs to work through in therapy. What exactly was she getting out of this affair?

If she wasn't in it because she had feelings for him,and she wasn't in it for the sex, what was she there for?

It’s pretty clear that this is revisionist thinking. She spent a year and a half in this relationship in both an emotional and physical affair. That’s an awfully long time.

She may say she didn’t have feelings for him, but it seems pretty clear during this year and a half period, that she did. It also seems clear that she was in it for the sex. She was like a kid who never got to eat sweets suddenly finding themselves unsupervised at an all you can eat desert buffet.

Look, my wife was the farthest thing ever from a slut. She wasn’t a prude, but she wasn’t a slut. Nor was she stupid and for the most part irrational. Yet for those few weeks she was a slut. She was stupid and she was irresponsible and put my heath as well as hers in jeopardy. Her actions destroyed our marriage.

The point is she wasn’t that person for the 25 years prior to meeting him, and wasn’t the day after she got caught nor for the 5 years we stayed together or even to this day. But make no mistake she was at that time, that person

AN’s wife was emotionally involved, and she was in it for the sex. I think it’s obvious that she looks back at these 18 months with anger and disgust as my EX did. But let’s not shade her motivations. This guy flattered her and gave her permission to explore the kinky side she always wanted to.

But like the kid at the buffet who spent the next day throwing up the chocolate cake, brownies, ice cream she doesn’t want to visit the sex table again. But if she does so like a person with control she may realize that a slice of chocolate cake can be satisfying. I think the slice is all AN is looking for

[This message edited by waitedwaytoolong at 3:27 PM, Sunday, March 26th]

I behaved in ways that I find childish and embarrassing. I did things that I feel are appalling. Did I do them because that is who I truly am?

Same.

I once heard a recovering alcoholic talk about the embarrassing way he used to behave when drunk, how he had humiliated himself, offended people, lost jobs, broken laws. Were those behaviors--the things he did--who he truly was, were they things he enjoyed doing? Of course not or he'd still be doing them sober. He has no fond memories, only shame (his words). The horrible, out-of-character behaviors were the price of doing business to get what he really needed out of drinking: the escape from difficult feelings.

AN's WW needs to, if she wants to get healthy, figure out why she did this, what she was really getting out of it.

On other threads, under different circumstances, everyone here seems to know that the A is "not about you." But for some reason, if the subject is what type of sex the WW is 'willing to give' during R, then that common knowledge gets completely torpedoed. I think this is what triggers so many women, the idea that if a couple tries to R, the WW no longer has sexual agency. As women, our bodies and sexual desires always remain our own. There is nothing in this world that compromises that fundamental truth--not if we wear a short skirt, show too much cleavage, slow dance with a guy, go home with a guy, or cheat. No matter what we do, who we do it with, or why we did it, it's always our body that is not owed to anyone. And nothing we choose to do with it is ever owed to anyone else. Discussions to the contrary are triggering for most of us because we spend a lifetime defending this concept.

That said, every human being has the right to decide that which is hurtful and intolerable, whether you are a BS or not. Nobody needs to justify being hurt enough to draw a boundary. That is the essence of drawing boundaries--you get to decide what is acceptable. If AspectNorth decides that his WW's sexual "choices" are too hurtful and he wants to leave, then that's what he absolutely should do. That is his human right--to get away from people who cause him pain. That is how we keep ourselves happy.

I happen to believe that his WW's behaviors have been pretty hurtful, and I'm not sure that I could recover. But I also know that marriage is a complex thing, and telling someone to D is ignoring all of the other feelings and implications of marriage in that person's life. I'm not prepared to EVER tell someone to D. That is so, so not my place. But I'll happily tell someone that they may have to D so that they can achieve their goals, one of which may be living in a more respectful setting. AN may need to D if he continues to feel hurt and disrespected, but how can anyone here simply announce that she is "not going to change" and proceed to tell him what to do? Who the hell do you think you are when you suppose to KNOW what other people should do? You don't even know any of these people irl. It's so presumptuous and bullying. And factually wrong!

Drawing a boundary is not an ultimatum. Yes, if you are very scared or CoD or immature, you can confuse the two and try to force the behaviors you need to see. Or settle for less. That's where IC for the BS comes in. If you are not happy and still stay, that's a YOU problem that you need to figure out. IC teaches you what properly respecting your needs looks like.

Many of us feel we need to justify to our spouse or family or the world WHY we want a D. And we know that the narrative will play out that it was us who "wanted the D! They are the one who left ME!" We imagine even our kids will believe this false narrative, even though we have bent over backwards trying to make the M or reconciliation work while our misbehaving spouse did not walk the walk. But, that is pretty much the story of D even when there is no cheating. The person who files gets blamed while the other spouse is acting out; you cannot correct that narrative overnight. And lots of people involved in the D will have opinions, judgements, feel wronged, blah, blah, blah. It's awful for the many involved. But divorce is actually just a boundary that gets enforced in a dysfunctional M, not a threat or bargaining chip to say "I want enthusiastic oral or you are out!" That is not how boundaries work, they aren't threats to do what I say. THAT is bullying. I mean, come on! AN's WW is well aware of what he needs. There is no use announcing and bullying. But if an allotted time goes by (did he say that he was giving it six months?) and he is feeling unloved and seeing little work, then it will be on him to enforce this boundary in his own life. He will need to say, "I cannot stay in an R that is so hurtful. I don't feel loved. I must go." And if he can't do that, it's up to him why. It's not up to the BTW Club to scream in his face that he needs to "man up" or whatever. But that is what we mean about having boundaries around what you need, not a list of demands. If people do not understand the difference between boundaries and demands, then that is important work for those people to do in IC. It means your relationships are likely suffering in ways you don't even realize as you bully and threaten (and hook up with people who have no boundaries, potentially opening yourself up to more infidelity in the future) or as you move your boundaries and minimize your needs (and hook up with narcissists, bullies, or selfish types who may step all over you). Understanding boundaries is critical for healthy relationships.

Good luck with whatever you do, AN. I hope you can find the peace you deserve.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 3:53 PM, Sunday, March 26th]

Did I do them because that is who I truly am?

Yes. That is who you were at that time.

The point is she wasn’t that person for the 25 years prior to meeting him, and wasn’t the day after she got caught nor for the 5 years we stayed together or even to this day. But make no mistake she was at that time, that person

Without an absolute psychotic break, we are who we are.....a summation of all the parts.....good and bad.

If Mrs. AN was a great wife and mother for 20 years, then that does not change. Just as she was an awful wife for the last few years. Will she get back to that great wife(assuming AN agrees she was)? No one knows. But to say that this 'isn't' her is not accurate. It is EXACTLY her. I've been a pretty lousy husband at times, and also a good one. One doesn't override the other. They are all part of what I am and have done(good and bad).

Just because Mrs. AN was out of character during her affair doesn't mean it wasn't real to her....at the time.

I once heard a recovering alcoholic talk about the embarrassing way he used to behave when drunk, how he had humiliated himself, offended people, lost jobs, broken laws. Were those behaviors, the things he did, who he truly was, were they things he enjoyed doing?

My father told me that the last day that he drank, he had a loaded gun in his mouth, hammer cocked, and enough pressure on the trigger that it could have gone off. The next day, he asked my mother to bring him to some sort of rehab. This was in 1955.

The man I knew could never do that. He was the greatest person that I have ever known. But just because he didn't enjoy the latter part of his drinking, he enjoyed it when it started. It was only as things got worse, was the currency no longer of any value.

Just because I never knew that part of him doesn't mean that wasn't who he was back then. He would be the first person to tell you that. Let's not add that my wife is a recovering alcoholic(10+ years), but she got something out of that. And her affair. Until she wasn't getting any 'value'.

It’s pretty clear that this is revisionist thinking. She spent a year and a half in this relationship in both an emotional and physical affair. That’s an awfully long time.

She may say she didn’t have feelings for him, but it seems pretty clear during this year and a half period, that she did.

To clarify, WWTL, I agree with all of this.

But make no mistake she was at that time, that person.

I think this is absolutely true.

However, the sentence can be read TWO ways.

She WAS that person and into the AP and the A.

She is NOW unhappy with those moments and choices, and is NOT that person at the current time.

Everyone here has made bad choices -- even if not as horrific as infidelity.

Most of us then learn from all of our choices, good or ill, and revise our thinking, and aim to improve.

Based on our thread, we all know the BAD choices by Mrs. AN, but there isn't enough information yet to determine if she will learn to help herself and her spouse heal and/or eventually become a better person.

OIN, let me state I agree with you that a woman or man has the ultimate say in what they will or will not do sexually.

But how to you view if AN decides he doesn’t want a lifetime of vanilla sex, especially knowing she gave it to her AP and says Mrs AN, I will not force you to do anything you do not want, but I cannot live the rest of my life with sex that I do not enjoy and I think divorce is the only other option.

Ultimatum or him exercising his right to live his life as he wants

However, the sentence can be read TWO ways.

She WAS that person and into the AP and the A.

She is NOW unhappy with those moments and choices, and is NOT that person at the current time.

Nope. Third choice. You hate yourself at the time, but do it anyway because of the "thing" you are getting out of it. And then finally, you hate yourself SO much that you no longer even are willing to participate.

Everyone here has made bad choices

It was just a bad choice, just like all of yours? Are you comparing it to all other bad choices?

I do not think you guys are arguing about AN or his WW. You are angry about infidelity in general and trying to take it out in this thread. I am only here in support of AN and his options or possible path. Your own journey is your own. I have already figured myself and my life out. I hope you all can learn. And do the same.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 4:57 PM, Sunday, March 26th]

I'm new to the forum. May will mark the 4th year of R for my wife and I. If I'm not allowed to post in this thread, please say so, but I have found the discussion very helpful.

The answer is a resounding NO to all, but if you were reading text messages you would have thought I was having the time of my life. What I was getting out of the affair outweighed all of that childish behavior. I let go of a lot of my integrity in order to get the validation I thought I needed so badly. I have very little (if any) respect for the person I was during that period of my life.

Bingo. But I will honestly say that I was having the time of my life. A sick, revolting person getting validation from other sick, revolting people, yet I could not see that forest for the trees at the time.

Was I enjoying it? Yes, until the validation was no longer enoughand I found myself finally hitting my rock bottom.

Nope. Third choice. You hate yourself at the time, but do it anyway because of the "thing" you are getting out of it. And then finally, you hate yourself SO much that you no longer even are willing to participate.

So, in other words, affair is an addiction. People in addiction know the addictive object is ruining their life, hurting people around them, and yet they continue to do it because of the "thing". And then when they sober up they always hate what they had become during addiction phase.Is this what you are saying that affair is another kind of addiction?

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 6:07 PM, Sunday, March 26th]

Yes. That is who you were at that time.

Fair enough.

As a matter of fact, one of my biggest "aha" moments was sitting in the office of our MC. I said something along the lines that it felt like a different person. I will never forget our MC as he leaned in to me, looked me straight in the eye and said "but that was you." I can not tell you how that moment changed me and my ability to start taking some accountability for my actions.

But to say that this 'isn't' her is not accurate. It is EXACTLY her.

I never said it wasn’t her, I said to be clear

Mrs. AN has no unearthly idea of who she is at the core. The only way she will figure that out is through some deep and honest introspection that can take years to work through. She has to figure out why she took the path she did and there are a whole lot of why’s along the way. It’s a pretty complicated knot to untangle and simplifying it to "she’s just not that into you" does everyone involved a disservice.

[This message edited by WalkinOnEggshelz at 6:14 PM, Sunday, March 26th]

How many people who are overweight actually want to be overweight? They know what causes it, and yet…

So, in other words, affair is an addiction. People in addiction know the addictive object is ruining their life, hurting people around them, and yet they continue to do it because of the "thing". And then when they sober up they always hate what they had become during addiction phase.Is this what you are saying that affair is another kind of addiction?

I think they have a lot of similar characteristics.

I think they have a lot of similar characteristics.

Never underestimate the ability of people do some activity regularly and be consumed with self loathing for it.

I do not think you guys are arguing about AN or his WW.

I think you added a whole lot to my post that wasn't there.

I'm not arguing with anyone.

I'm certain that NO one here knows Mrs. AN's potential to learn and be a better person, other than Mrs. AN.

I'm certain we all have done some bad things and most of us have learned from them.

I'm certain my wife has absolutely learned from her choices, and I do not define her by her worst days.

And our R was defined by BOTH of us holding on to our agency, working towards a stronger relationship that helps both of us.

I think most people here agree AN gets to suggest what he wants his life and his relationships to look like and be like, and Mrs. AN gets to decide if she wants the same.

So an unremorseful WW says she didn't like the sex AND she didn't like her AP and we're supposed to believe her?

Or are we just not supposed to call her out on it?

[This message edited by GoldenR at 7:37 PM, Sunday, March 26th]

We can have our own opinions, but we can't have our own facts. The fact is that the OP wrote at some length regarding his WW's actions in R:

Since that time, WW has been a "model wayward". Working to reconnect with me, becoming accountable, being forthcoming with her whereabouts at all times, passwords to phones/email/etc and continuing with IC, and initiating MC when I (thought) I was ready, even offering multiple times to submit to a poly if I needed to know anything else. (I don't - I'm satisfied that I know everything I want to know and more!), as well as disclosing her A to parents and our teenage children etc. She knows she has wounded me and our family deeply and takes full ownership of everything. Basically, she is more than doing the work.