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Here’s my thing, there’s been a lot of stuff in this thread that has been manipulative. Attempts to manipulate AN. Repeatedly asking him to picture WS and AP doing it. Casting her actions in the worst possible light, based on zero facts. Telling him that she should not be forgiven (and by extension anyone who would forgive is wrong).

I totally get that. I’m also a survivor of a WS who did things way beyond what I would have expected her to do such as having more anal in a few weeks than we had in 25 years of marriage. This among other things that only take place in hard core porn movies AN knows what she did, so no need to rub it into his face.

I I stated before, it’s the acts of humiliation that separate this from just your run of the mill affair. That and the refusal to to even consider opening up her outlook on sex both before and after her affair.

I was also humiliated. Not just by the affair, but also a couple of instances. My EX set up a meeting for me to consider investing what would have been hundreds of thousands of dollars in his business of renovating and flipping homes. She had him come to my house, the day after she fucked him, to shake my hand and give me his moronic proposal. She claims it wasn’t something she wanted to do, but felt pressured as she was feeling like there was an implied threat if she didn’t, he would out her. Was this respect for me? If she had any she would have rolled the dice and prayed she didn’t get sold out

The second was knowing I had oral sex with her hours after he came inside her. I specifically remember she did make an effort to push me away, but since oral was such a huge part of our sex life, which was great, she was afraid that I would sense something was off and it might give her away. Yet here I was, hours later, munching down on his swimmers. I don’t care how much she showered, those guys were in there. Again, she could have made up an excuse of a yeast infection or something, or feigned a heart attack. But her own desire not to be caught, outweighed what she had to have known after 25 years would be devastating to me.

The thing is, and I probably should have stated it better, that even knowing this my intention was to come to forgiveness with her at some point. But there is a difference in forgiving her, but never forgiving these acts. I know there are many here that advocate when you forgive, it’s total amnesty. That for me would have been impossible. Others here seem to have no problem with it. I’m speaking for myself.

So I get the humiliation that AN is going through. The thing that makes this even harder to comprehend is my EX was doing these two things out of preservation. She knew this thing was going to end, and didn’t want to deal with getting caught.

In this instance it wasn’t out of preservation. She was doing this under her own volition. The group here that gives the have put forth the explanation of "it was clearly wrong, but it was the Dom/ Sub thing that caused rubs me the wrong way. It’s like when the word but is used in an apology. I’m so sorry I screwed the personal trainer, but I was feeling very lonely. That to me is not an apology, but an excuse. She did this because she wanted to please her AP, and didn’t have an ounce of respect for AN. Others can spin this anyway they want, but I’m not buying it. The Dom thing might have lowered her inhibitions like being drunk, but just like I don’t buy into being drunk as an excuse either (unless it’s passed out drunk which is rape) lowered inhibitions is not an excuse

I’m not here advocating for divorce. He may find enough of the relationship satisfactory enough to continue and hopefully she can get her head out of her ass and provide what AN wants to give him some sort of sexual happiness. I will give her credit for being so forthcoming.

But in this long winded response, I still maintain though he might get to forgiveness to her, what she did, as well as my EX, the acts of humiliation are unforgivable. I’m speaking for myself. Others here as I stated can rationalize her actions as though not being ok, but forgivable. Just not me

[This message edited by waitedwaytoolong at 6:28 PM, Saturday, March 25th]

Who knows why she did what she did, and frankly who cares.

He does. He has said he would like to see if she can change, so don't project your own feelings onto him. Or tell him how to feel.

I I stated before, it’s the acts of humiliation that separate this from just your run of the mill affair. That and the refusal to to even consider opening up her outlook on sex both before and after her affair.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find many BS's who don't feel at least somewhat humiliated by their WS's sexual conduct during an affair. It's kind of par for the course, and for most of us, it takes some time to process the injury and heal because at first, it can be very difficult to let the cheating be about the cheater.

In terms of differing sexual outlooks, that's something which affects LOTS of marriages. Whether there's been cheating or not, mismatched libidos, different points of view, and different preferences happen frequently. If it's not right to pressure a partner who hasn't cheated into doing something sexually that they don't want to do, how can it be right to treat a WS that way? If we have to dehumanize a WS to consider R, how can R be the best choice for either party?

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find many BS's who don't feel at least somewhat humiliated by their WS's sexual conduct during an affair. It's kind of par for the course,

I completely disagree. It is common for a BS to feel humiliated by the affair but not as common for WS to get off (or contributed to her arousal) on the targeted humiliation of BS. In most cases the BS is specifically compartmentalized away to avoid the cognitive dissonance. Not so here. This is a another level of depravity, IMO.

I respectfully disagree. We have nothing to indicate this WW targeted her sexual activities to humiliate AN. We don’t know her motivations. To say she targeted her sexual activities to humiliate him is simply projection. As OwningItNow stated AN is interested in finding out her whys and if she has the capacity to change. She is in IC and they are seeking couples sex therapy which will hopefully assist him in his understanding.

Taking some kind of provocative photos for her AP specifically with BS in the background is not targeting him in their festivities?

No, because they never told him. They probably thought he’d never find out.

He was a prop. Which is its own shit sandwich to deal with of course.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 9:01 PM, Saturday, March 25th]

Never2late, we do not know what she was thinking in that specific example of the provacative photos. Was she thinking about humiliating AN? Maybe but I think unlikely. Was she caught up in a submissive space where she was doing as she was told, getting turned on by that and AN would never know? Maybe. Was she just playing along so she could keep the attention coming from posom but with no thought about AN? Maybe.

Any of those interpretations could be true. No matter which is right, what she did was betray AN. He knows this but chose to try R anyway. I do think the intent matters as I think AN wants to understand her and for her to understand herself so she can make substantive changes. But at this point we do not know in detail what she was motivated by. So I personally cant say it was actually targeting him or not.

Think about the cases we see here of WS texting their AP right after sex with their spouse, texting AP on their wedding anniversary or on vacation, taking photos of themselves in their bedroom, having sex with AP in their house or bed. All very common. All not far from what AN's WW did to him. Some even worse for some BSs. WS do selfish, hurtful things in their affairs and most just never think their BS will ever find out. I think it is fairly rare the WS does humiliating things on purpose to their BS. WWTLs wife did horrible things but I do not believe she ever planned to humiliate him in any way. My guess is ANs WW is likely the same.

Has AN succumbed to the sunk cost fallacy? He’s three years in and no change. He’s no doubt stressed about it, and due to the enormity of the situation in its entirety, I can’t imagine his life has much joy.

Life is short. If OP continues to pursue R, he could easily invest 3-5 more years into it snd decide to pull the plug. One just doesn’t know. That’s a lot of time to be unhappy.

Why not D and see if you can/want to R from there? At least if you’re D, then work on R, you’ll probably be in a better financial situation. Perhaps a better place mentally as well. Something to think about.

It is targeting him for humiliation, N2L. 100%.

Not sure why so many here keep trying to minimize on her behalf.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 10:10 PM, Saturday, March 25th]

No, because they never told him. They probably thought he’d never find out.

Under this thinking them having sex is not really cheating as he wasn’t supposed to find out about that.

Targeting your spouse and making him a fool with your lover behind his back is still humiliating whether he finds out or not

[This message edited by waitedwaytoolong at 10:06 PM, Saturday, March 25th]

If they just wanted a prop for those inappropriate photos, then they could have chosen a stranger or a neighbor guy or mailman, etc, for a background guy. People do these kind of 'exhibitionist' things in front of oblivious strangers for their SEXUAL PLEASURE. But, here, they specifically chose the husband. Husband in those photos was definitely meant to serve some kind of sick pleasure to them that they don't get by having some other person in the background. This clearly explains what was going on her in mind.

WWTLs wife did horrible things, but I do not believe she ever planned to humiliate him in any way.

The key word is Planning. Most of the things WWTL's wife did weren't planned beforehand. They sorta happened. It's not that her AP commanded her to give sloppy seconds to her husband. No, that wasn't planned. The only thing that was planned beforehand was the business proposal that AP offered to WWTL. But, in this case, there was planning. All the tasks she performed were planned. And they consciously chose husband for the execution of these plans for their sexual pleasure. What else is needed to understand that it was humiliating for her husband, and she wasn't dumb enough to not realize that? If she wasn't doing it for her AP but for herself (as stated by her) then she definitely got some pleasure from it that was so great that she had to do it over and over again.

If affairs are illogical and irrational and can not be explained, then why do we insist on finding out 'whys' and 'hows' of affairs? Any answer to whys is always logical and rational. Like in this case, the whole 'FOO sexual suppression' story and 's/d' dynamics are also attempts to logically and rationally explain her affair and its related actions. Everything that has been said by HO, CT, BSR, BTG, OW, WWTL, etc, are all attempts to explain this 'illogical' affair logically. I don't know why one camp discredits other camps attempt to logically explain her actions by claiming "affairs are illogical and thus, cannot be explained", all the while they themselves are doing the same exact thing.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 10:14 PM, Saturday, March 25th]

Targeting your spouse and making him a fool with your lover behind his back is still humiliating whether he finds out or not

That makes zero sense.

Secretly doing things at your BS's expense to laugh at him (or worse, to get off on) together IS humiliating him.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 10:16 PM, Saturday, March 25th]

Exactly right, Lurkingsoul12.

Why specifically include him in the picture? Ok. Maybe not to humiliate him. Maybe to laugh about how they were getting away with it and he was too blind to know? I mean, ANY reason to have included him in the pictures was terrible,even for a cheater.

Also..from reading on this site for years..it's not common to bring an AP into the marital bed. It seems there actually are lines most cheaters don't cross.

A lot of focus has been on the kinds of sex she gave willingly,and enthusiastically to her AP. But she also went out and bought lingerie,only for AP. And then there's the porn. They watched it together..but when she was alone, she watched it,and sought out links to send to AP, talking about how they could do *that.* The sexual part of her affair went beyond giving specific sex acts to another man. She spent time looking at porn for them..after telling her husband that porn was a deal breaker for her. She went out,and bought sexy lingerie,while her husband only saw her in white panties.

She went way out of her way to keep this man interested in her. Odd for a woman who claims he repulsed her during the affair.

But,hey..maybe he disgusted her..for 18 whole months.

[This message edited by HellFire at 10:21 PM, Saturday, March 25th]

That makes zero sense.

Yet, I understand it perfectly.

I don’t know that it helps AN that a handful of people are suggesting he should feel way worse than a regular old betrayed spouse, because his wife’s actions make her A far more horrible than ‘normal’.

Every betrayal is the WORST for each one of us.

That said, comparison doesn’t do much for AN and his decisions. I could even describe some of my wife’s A that are worse, at least in my mind, than anything Mrs. AN did. It doesn’t matter, anything that happened to me doesn’t HELP AN figure out what he wants.

The key to me is always how the WS responds to help AN heal the marriage and try to repair the damage she caused — that’s still the big issue on the table for him. If I’m AN, I need to see more a lot more effort from his WS before figuring out that path forward.

I think every A humiliates every BS. I think everyone deals with that issue their own way. After a couple of years, I found that my wife’s extraordinarily horrific LTA, her choices, her low point, doesn’t reflect on me in any way, at all. That was her own bullshit and mocking me at any point during the A was part of that bullshit.

Once I understood my value was in tact and explained what I needed to stay — I got to look at my wife and see what she wanted to do about repairing herself and then us.

So far, so good.

I’ll choose my path each day as it happens, M or not, like I have most of the last five decades or so.

What matters is that it's not her preference WITH OP. There. I fixed it for ya. It’s proven that it WAS her preference with AP.

No doubt another excuse for WW is coming shortly from CT.

First of all, I’m not sure how it is proven that it was her preference with OP. Just because you do something does not make it your preference. Some things are done for currency. I’m not sure what the case is here, but unless she has said that I loved giving BJ’s to AP but can’t stand them with you, you have little proof.

Second, your sarcasm and snarkiness is unhelpful. You don’t have to agree with anything that anyone has to say, but being rude about it certainly won’t get anyone to change their point of view.

I suggest checking your tone prior to hitting submit.

First of all, I’m not sure how it is proven that it was her preference with OP. Just because you do something does not make it your preference. Some things are done for currency. I’m not sure what the case is here, but unless she has said that I loved giving BJ’s to AP but can’t stand them with you, you have little proof.

Unless I'm misunderstanding Mr. AN's posts, he has read a great deal of the messaging between Mrs. AN and the AP, which includes a lot of ongoing, repeated, enthusiastic "in real time" statements expressing a great deal of enthusiastic enjoyment for the sexual exploration with the AP. That is coupled with her actions, where she proactively watched porn on her own, trolling for ideas, positions, etc., to explore with the AP. She discussed these things with him, planned it, etc.

Then when covid lockdown prevented them from getting together physically, she began doing things to humiliate her unwitting BH for the AP's benefit, as discussed. IMO this is cuckoldry plain and simple.

Finally, per Mr. AN's posts, the AP lost interest during lockdown, causing his responses to decrease in frequency, eventually tapering off. This caused Mrs. AN to become depressed. Mr. AN, seeing her depression but not knowing its cause, encouraged her to seek therapy. It was her IC that came to show Mrs. AN the awfulness of her ways, and worked with her to confess.