SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I agree with the above ^^^

Especially getting a new IC for the Mrs. It should be a dealbreaker if she doesn't.

Nicely summarized N&D.

Aspect North, I hope you'll come back to your own thread. And please read N&D's comment because it's a gem.

It struck me this a.m. that Mr. AN has posted 13 times on this thread, out of a total of (including this post) 537 posts. That's less than 2.5% of the posting.

This. This is what I can't help but think about as I've seen this thread balloon and twist and grow over the past few weeks. There are posters here who have posted 25, 40, 50+ times on this thread. Several, even many, of those posts were carefully crafted to provide advice, insight, and perspective to the OP and the specific issues he has raised. Mr. AN has indicated that some of this, in particular HikingOut's comments, were illuminating and resonated with how he viewed his situation. A whole lot more appear to be focused on speculating and arguing about what motivations and thoughts/feelings we should or should not impute to a woman we have never met (and that many posters have no basis for relating to). As is the case with a lot of threads started by BHs, there is also an unfortunate amount of piling on and shaming the OP under the guise of "opening his eyes". I will never understand why there is a contingent of posters who find the need to do this. No BS needs to be told about how humiliated they should feel, particularly by people who are purporting to support them.

If you actually read Mr. AN's posts, his story in this post is one of progress. He has had some productive conversations with his WW and she has agreed to attend sex therapy. It obviously remains to be seen if that works out for them in a way he ultimately deems satisfactory, but it is clearly a positive development, particularly when you consider where she started. And yet 8 pages and like 150+ comments later (none by him!) here we are...

Lo and behold Mrs. AN and an IC that will drive Mrs. AN's agenda are ready with concrete steps to R

Yeah, it is all about who is in control, and it has to be AN. Even if the process is messier and goes in fits and starts.

I think number&dumb's response is dead-on.

And to extend to that, this is what I think at least half of us are saying: AN needs to be VERY careful here, because his WW's actions in the now do not demonstrate that she loves HIM but instead demonstrate that she loves THE LIFE SHE HAD before she blew up everyone's lives with her affair. She may have been running around like a scalded cat demonstrating effort, but she is still thinking primarily of herself (I think AN himself already wonders this at least subconciously, his words about her being a model wayward notwithstanding and needed to be taken with a grain of salt here. I don't think anyone here while in it ever knew what "model wayward" behavior ever really was, as we never had wanted to experience that!)

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:10 PM, Monday, March 27th]

Yes, WBFA.

WalkinOnEggshelz:

To answer your question, AN has every right to say that he wants to divorce over the lack of enthusiasm with sex. If it is important and you are not compatible, going separate ways seems the logical thing to do. If I had a foot fetish and my husband found feet disgusting we would not be compatible. I would not blame either one of us for wanting to D if it was extremely important to one or the other.

You don't get it. You still do not get it. I'm trying to be respectful here, but after reading this paragraph I wanted to throw my shoe at the monitor! Calling this "compatibility", like it's a 'Vacationing At The Beach vs In The Mountains' sort of thing here. Good Grief!

This is NOT about WW's "lack of enthusiasm with sex", i.e., something that may be a compatibility issue centering around differing libidos. It may have seemed to be about that, BEFORE the affair, but not now. This is instead much more NOW about WW's enthusiasm with sex with another man who was not her husband.

This is now, is clearly WW's own serious issue on HER end--one that NO self-respecting man should put up with.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:44 PM, Monday, March 27th]

Lo and behold Mrs. AN and an IC that will drive Mrs. AN's agenda are ready with concrete steps to R

Yeah, it is all about who is in control, and it has to be AN. Even if the process is messier and goes in fits and starts.

First, an IC is responsible to the client. If this IC weren't thinking primarily about what the client wanted, the IC would not be doing their job.

Much more important is the fact that AN can control only himself. He can't control his W. He can't control the future of their relationship. He can control only his part in the future relationship.

Also, for R to succeed, BS must control BS, WS must control WS, and together they need to create a new M that serves them both. A new M can be created only if R is cooperative, with both parties owning and using their power.

AN needs to define what he wants to give and receive. His W has to define what she wants to give and receive. And they have to decide if what they want to give and receive aligns closely enough to make life good enough to continue together.

This is NOT about WW's "lack of enthusiasm with sex". It may have been about that, BEFORE the affair, but not now. This is instead much more NOW about WW's enthusiasm with sex with another man who was not her husband.

** Posting as a member **

If that's how you see it, that's YOUR issue, not AN's, as I read his posts. At last check-in, AN is willing to give enough time to find out if sex therapy will solve the problem.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 9:46 PM, Monday, March 27th]

I'm trying to be respectful here,

Are you? Because I feel that was just lip service as everything you said after wasn’t with respect.

You don’t have to agree with anything that I said. I don’t take issue with that. But this is too much

one that NO self-respecting man should put up with.

Suggesting that AN’s self respect is at stake is going too far WBFA. What he is willing to work with or what he is willing to walk away from are his choice. Attacking his integrity is something I will not tolerate.

It struck me this a.m. that Mr. AN has posted 13 times on this thread, out of a total of (including this post) 537 posts. That's less than 2.5% of the posting.

As long as everyone continues in this unproductive conversation it'll continue to grow and that percentage will get smaller and smaller.

As is the case with a lot of threads started by BHs, there is also an unfortunate amount of piling on and shaming the OP under the guise of "opening his eyes". I will never understand why there is a contingent of posters who find the need to do this. No BS needs to be told about how humiliated they should feel, particularly by people who are purporting to support them.

I have an idea of why they do this. While I could be wrong about the motivation behind it, its not really hard to discern.

This is NOT about WW's "lack of enthusiasm with sex". It may have been about that, BEFORE the affair, but not now. This is instead much more NOW about WW's enthusiasm with sex with another man who was not her husband.

I don’t agree with this at all. From what little we have heard from AN, I think he was hurt by this, but it isn’t the stumbling block here.
He isn’t looking to replicate what she did with him, but rather trying to get to a normal satisfying sexual relationship. I think her enthusiasm for her AP, and willingness to please him was the catalyst for him to make changes, but what she did with him he seems to have come to acceptance.

Look, I get the feeling of how awful what she did was. I divorced my EX for something similar. But that’s me and not him. It’s tempting to project how many of us feel he should think. I think what she did was unforgivable. But that’s my feeling and as far as I can read into what he wrote, he is able to get over that part.

It’s the going forward that is now the real issue. He has made progress getting her into sex therapy

I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned, and AN, I hope it doesn't come off as trying pile onto the pain your in. I'm so sorry for the horrible cards you've been dealt.

But is sharing pics/vids of a sexual nature of someone than you without their consent not illegal?

Regardless of the legalities, pissed and betrayed would be understatements for how I would be feeling. You've decided to see if it can work between you and Mrs.AN. As others have stated, I think you have a good plan going forward. My only advice would be to make sure your wife gets to the true reasons for why she did the things that she did. If it were me, I'd need to see a damn compelling one to be able to recommit. Only you can know what you're willing to accept, but I wish you both the best luck in your healing.

AN, if I misread or overstepped I apologize to you here. I am just saying that the differing sex drive between you and your WW is much more than an 'incompatibility' issue. It is definitely NOT a matter of self-respect whether or not you can see a way forward with you and your WW staying married.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:15 PM, Tuesday, March 28th]

all these mental gymnastic with ICs and MCs aside I think what led her to this may be simple- One get bored and the OM may be more attractive. And with all her hidden fantasies she wanted to test drive assuming that it is strictly impersonal and she can stop at any time and it will never be known to anyone.

But looks like she got emotionally involved and started behaving the way POS wanted her to behave and hence got depressed during covid because she they cannot meet. IC warned her about what is going to happen and she forced herself to get emotionally disconnected but unable to do things she did with him with you.

However on your part I think it is not appropriate to base your continuation of marriage on the basis of sex acts. What is the purpose of doing these acts with someone who does not like it especially the spouse?. whether you D or R if you really want it do it with someone who is willing. Marriage has so much more than sex. Your decision to R or D should be on how good or bad the marriage has been in other areas and how committed and emotionally involved you W with you after the affair.

Another aspect is if you really depend on her for your wellbeing (physically. emotionally, socially and financially) where a D is not possible then you have to bite the bullet and compromise.

Keep your head up and do other things in your life with even more vigor. It is sexy to be productive in the face of adversity and do not ask for sex acts. This may lead her to offering those eventually

[This message edited by goalong at 1:55 PM, Thursday, March 30th]

IMO, from the perspective of a BS, it all comes down to desire and motivation. When people really want something, they do whatever it takes to get it.

What do we hear from most of the WW? That they gave sex in order to get feelings and attention in return. They really wanted something, and did what it took to get it.

Now take this same dynamic and apply it to R.

Everybody has choices in life. It's all a risk vs reward equation. It was worth the risk of destroying the marriage and losing the BS for the reward. The equation works both ways.

Will the WS put the same level of effort and desire to save the marriage that they did to destroy it?

If the BS was denied something freely given to the AP, and would like it offered to them, then its choice time

Now of course no one should be "forced" to do something they don't want to do. And in a perfect world that would be true. Many days I would rather stay in bed than go to work. But the reality of a mortgage and food forces me to go to work.

No one forced them to give it up to the AP. It was a decision made of their own free will. And the BS also has free will

If the WS says “No, that was for AP, not you.” So be it.

At that point it up to the BS to decide what they will and will not accept.

It’s a big world. There are plenty of people just as attractive that will treat you much better than your WS. There are many women who enjoy being sexually adventurous and monogamous at the same time.

The BH can always exercise the option to go and be with one of these women.

AN, I’m sorry you find yourself in this situation, I can relate in some respects and wanted to add my $0.02 FWIW.

My WW had a ONS before marriage and a PA and a number of EA’s after marriage. We weee HS Sweethearts and each others first and only, when we started dating anyway. I discovered her PA through snooping her email. No way to talk her way out of it, it was black and white. She admitted the ONS the same night I discovered the PA.

She did things with her AP that we haven’t done, but also did things we have done, that are very typically for WW’s in affairs, I don’t need to get into details. Her AP pushed her boundaries and she happily obliged. When she told me about the sex, I was floored that she allowed this guy to do some specific things to her, quite degrading and unlike her. She said basically what a lot of WW’s do. She did it because he wanted it and she wanted to please him

About a year after dday, I asked her if anything we do makes her uncomfortable. She said the one thing she did with him and has done with me made her uncomfortable. Not because she did it with him, but more when we did it (post dday), she was always anxious about me thinking about the two of them together. It’s true, it would trigger me.

It made me very angry. This POS that had nothing to do with my life has now caused issues for my wife and for me. I thought about it for a while, and decided I didn’t want her to do anything she wasn’t comfortable with, so we don’t do this specific thing anymore. For me, it isn’t the end of the world, but I still don’t like the reasoning why. However, she still maintains that she is more than willing to do it if I want to. This does make it easier for me, since the AP doesn’t "own" this.

In terms of the why’s, this is something that I struggled with for a long, long time.

After a couple of years and countless IC sessions for my WW, her IC also brought up a lot of the same "reasons" as your WW’s IC did, for my WW’s affairs and how she acted during them.

At the end of the day, depression, FOO issues, being a people pleaser, etc., are all just reasons and justifications. My wife cheater in me because:

1. The opportunity was there;
2. She wanted to;
3. She did what she wanted to, without any regard for me or our family.

It really just comes down to this. My WW has made strides on her boundaries with men, worked on herself and her self esteem, and is a better person and wife. Is all better, no, her affairs are something that is in our marriage forever. I think about it everyday, and it’s been 7+ years.

As for the sex acts, I don’t see OS as being anything extreme. I see it as a standard part of sex. The dom/sub stuff, not surprising. My WW’s AP just wanted to see how far he could push my WW. She did everything he wanted happily. Maybe it was transactional, but so what, she wasn’t forced or coerced, he asked, she said yes, no different that your WW.

Your WW and IC hitting you with disclosure and setting boundaries doesn’t sit well with me. If it were me, I would be finding a different IC, as many have said, her IC is there for her client (your WW, not you). The "you won" statement would make my blood boil. She has a long way to go before she can become a safe partner that can empathize with your pain. She is not there now. She may be able to get there, she may not.

Hey AN. I'm not sure if you're still listening in, but I hope the last few days have been kind.

I was thinking about you and remembered that you found your friend's Matrix analogy useful. I don't know if you're a music fan, but hopefully this will help...

You're story reminds me of the song "I would do anything for love (but I won't to that)." I'll leave it to you to take what you will from it, but I hope you're continuing the work to find in yourself the thing that you "won't do."

By that, I mean that I feel that you should be prepared for the contingency that Mrs.AN doesn't meet whatever expectations you have from her sex therapy. I have no idea whether she can or not, but if she doesn't, you may find yourself saying you "won't do that."

If that time comes, you'll also need to be prepared for a litany of reasons for why you should accept the results. For that, I'll leave you with another song line..."I know life's a bummer Baby, but that's got nothing at all to do with me." It's a bit of a crass song, but hopefully it helps booster the idea that, whatever is going on her end bears no reflection on your wants and needs.

Whatever ends up happening with you two, I hope you know that you can hold your head high...Shit, that's another song (and ironic) as well so I'll stop for now. Cheers my brother! Take care of yourself.

AN, Is it possible that this is a basic sexual incompatibility issue? The sexually liberated woman that she was with the AP is the true Mrs.AN? Her explanations of the person cheating not being her, not respecting the AP, loathing the AP, not being attracted to AP all seem like baseless justifications ( and honestly bull crap) to stay married.

If she respected you she wouldn’t make you an unknowing participant in the dirty sexual dynamic that she had with her AP.
I suspect her coming clean of the affair happened only because the AP lost interest in her. If there was no pandemic she would continue to enjoy being the " bad " girl that she truly is.

If I were you and if Divorce did not have huge implications I would start my life again with a sexually compatible new partner.

Emergent you have illustrated exactly why I stoped expending energy. The OP seems to be progressing, and all the rest is caused by a lot of people committed to misunderstanding what is being shared.

It’s not hard to for me to understand why a ws would stay in a situation where the Ap is revolting to them at times, I don’t think it’s strange at all. Part of me knew during my affair the AP was not who I was making him out to be.

My husband had an 18 month affair and reported on specific moments of revulsion that I whole heartedly believe.

Because the affair wasn’t about me or his AP it was him trying trying to climb out of his sadness and feelings of powerlessness. He stayed that long because he was getting that payoff of from feelings of entitlement and false empowerment.

I see walkingoneggshelz and BSR saying what I would. I believe that some people are always going to be against reconciliation, and some are always going to show up just to contradict a female ws, and there is nothing to be done.

In the end I feel the respect to AN and his decision and path is ignored largely to debate a topic that has always been had around here. It’s unfortunate the lack of self reflection have when they feel stating things as absolutes is the same thing that myself or anyone else was doing in offering our perspectives as a ws. And I don’t have the time or inclination to keep doing it, it’s not going to smooth the barriers of our communication.

But AN if you come back, I am watching and wishing you the best. You have been so logical and methodical in your efforts that whether this culminated into a happy marriage or a happy divorce, you are taking a lot of steps towards your happiness. Despite it all, I think that is what everyone here wants for you.