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So my WW and I have taken to reading Gottman. His claimed ability to predict relationship success with more than 90% accuracy based off relatively short observations is fascinating and sobering. The concept of the 4 horsemen (criticism, contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling) and the havoc they bring to a relationship has been eye opening for both of us. I can see I have a knack for criticism while she is a defensiveness and stonewalling pro. As we attempt to rebuild, it seems that we should avoid these things. But it also seems like when I try to talk about big structural issues around the affair, she claims it is criticism, a horseman, and needs to be avoided. I guess it is, I’m certainly bringing up more than just a specific event. But it seems that the situation at hand is not relationship problems 101 and needs deep dive. I also have enough self awareness to know that I already tend to criticize and I prefer to deep dive issues. So I’m interested in this groups take. I’m not looking to be punitive and make her feel bad about herself. But the foundation is broke and I’m trying to figure out why she took a sledgehammer to it. I’m looking for thoughts in the spirit of how I can heal and how to best try to rebuild, not just "FU, sit there and take it wayward". Thanks all, I appreciate you.

Gottman has a different approach to infidelity.

Atone, Attune and Attach. What has she done to support the Atone phase? She is skipping a major step and that is why it isn't working.

She needs to find remorse before any couplehood work is done. It is probably best to work with individual counselors for now.

FWIW she needs to more honest with herself and take accountability. She needs to look inward and stop trying to score points.

Right now your M is in crisis because of her unilateral choice to have an affair. That isn't a criticism that is the cause. She isn't safe and I would heavily recommend that you stop communicating in a vulnerable space. You need to see how she plans to restore that safety.

Right now she is trying to draw attention from herself. ALL "reasons," for her affair that are ascribed to you are not the real cause.

She needs to do her part in the Atone phase, but likeky can't (Read as won't) until she can admit and own just how bad of a wife she has been.

I am really sorry. Your wife isn't willing to be vulnerable, but expects you to be while proving she is not safe and has no immediate plans to be.

Doesn't sound like she wants a genuine and reconciled M. . .unless it is on her terms.

Detach and spend some time with an IC. You will be much better off in the short term. Look into the 180. You need to focus on you not on the M.

Your W made a decision without your involement that dramatically impacted your life. Now you get to make a choice too (ICs are good here). Why involve her if she has proven that she won't do the same?

Thanks for the quick reply.

She confessed to me and as far as I can tell she has been completely non contact and I have full access to phone and computer. I think she’s checked a lot of boxes on "atone", but I admit I still wish there was something that could repay this damage.

She gets so overwhelmed with shame, she just can’t talk about heavy stuff that puts her in any kind of negative light. And that was before the affair. I don’t know how we are ever going to effectively talk about all the shit that needs talking about. Especially when we don’t seem to agree on the ground rules. I feel like I’ve shown a lot of restraint, only a few angry outbursts in the last five months, she’s probably had more than I have. I’m getting tired. I was in a really good spot a week ago and then I triggered hard on something she said and it’s been a rough few days.

I am in IC, so is she. I think we need a joint counselor just so we can talk about some of this stuff. We have an appointment for tomorrow, I guess we’ll see how it goes.

I believe it all begins with her earnest attempts to honestly explore the issues within her and share her discoveries with you. When she flays herself open before you, exposing herself with absolute honesty and humility, make’s herself vulnerable to you with extremely personal and compromising truths, she will establish a whole new level of intimacy that quite possibly has never existed in yours, or any prior relationships, ever before. I’m talking breakthrough intimacy. This level of truth and trusting you with the compromising truth, is extremely intimate and binding. When you hear of those couples emerging from the ashes of infidelity stronger than before, I believe it is because they achieved this profound actualizing milestone of intimacy.

And then many of the issues regarding Gottman’s Four Horseman almost subsequently repair themselves through this newly established level of intimacy.

When she flays herself open before you, exposing herself with absolute honesty and humility, make’s herself vulnerable to you with extremely personal and compromising truths, she will establish a whole new level of intimacy that quite possibly has never existed in yours, or any prior relationships, ever before. I’m talking breakthrough intimacy.

This would be the most amazing thing that I can imagine happening. I’d be so insanely happy if it came to be, and I don’t think I can survive in the marriage if it doesn’t. Seems like an all or nothing situation. And if I’m honest, if I were a betting man I’d guess she won’t go there

She gets so overwhelmed with shame, she just can’t talk about heavy stuff that puts her in any kind of negative light. And that was before the affair.

Toxic shame. She really needs to remedy this or it will stymie your chances for reconciliation. Shame is extremely debilitating and ultimately selfish. It redirects all the much needed support, attention and empathy away from you back unto herself. It is a distractor, a cloak for her to hide under and avoid the big questions and important actions and it completely blocks intimacy. She needs to climb out of her pity pot and start leading the crusade to fix herself and heal the marriage.

Seems like an all or nothing situation.

It absolutely is. It’s crucial. There’s no half-assing it. You either get a wholistic genuine authentic purely rehabilitative reconciliation or go for a well executed divorce.

In the early phase soon after D-day it’s going to take time and counseling to assess if your WS has the prerequisites to pull this off. She may have the basic undeveloped unrefined attributes (ie empathy) to pull this off but requires professional help to cultivate her potential.

She may have the basic undeveloped unrefined attributes (ie empathy) to pull this off but requires professional help to cultivate her potential.

As weird as this sounds, that was super comforting and brought some tears to my eyes at work. Thanks.

It sounds like you, on some level at least, are rugsweeping. At the very least, you are skipping steps here. Your WW is NOT remorseful--she is instead more focused on her shame. But still, there you are, still trying to R.

How can you possibly be in R with someone who betrayed you so deeply for 3 years, when your DD was only a few months ago, AND when your WW still does not seem willing to do the work needed. Has she gotten to the bottom of her "why's"? Is she remorseful (it sounds no). You cannot R with someone who is still this unsafe.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:27 PM, Monday, December 5th]

FWIW her shame is something for HER to work on with her IC. Certainly sharing, if she feels comfortable, should be encouraged.

I still think you both have work to do individually before she will be able to give you a fact oriented story of her A.

Focus less on her and more on yourself. It builds foundations for when you are ready to see a counselor together.

I don’t like coaching a WS too much. Then the R begins to evolve rotely, mechanically and not via genuine remorse, passion, self discovery and newfound intimacy. A good therapist can guide a her along, avoid pitfalls help remove obstacles and address internal issues, the very issues that may not only be impeding R, but also contributed to the A.

If she needs too much hand holding or if you continually find yourself leading her by the nose through R, then that dog just won’t hunt. She doesn’t possess the will or the passion to mount a sustainable campaign for definitive R.

R lasts forever. It lays down the foundation for the new relationship.

R is f…ing hard. I don’t know if I could meet up to my own expectations for R and I never want to find out. All I know is that if I cheated on my current wife, I would fight. I would f-ing move mountains and desperately grab onto every opportunity afforded me to save our marriage and fix whatever shit allowed me to hurt the love of my life. I would be extremely ashamed and embarrassed but wouldn’t let it squander that fleeting opportunity to reconcile with this beautiful woman and, most importantly, myself.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 7:45 PM, Monday, December 5th]

It sounds like you, on some level at least, are rugsweeping. At the very least, you are skipping steps here and are rushing into R.

The last time I posted I took umbrage to people saying I was rugsweeping, but it seems they were closer to right than me. So I’ll ask you what you see as rugsweeping. I’ll still say that I’m in a state where we are together and trying to be make things work. You can say it’s not really R, but then it’s what, infidelity purgatory? I get lost on that. I may be a slow learner.

Hi InkHulk,

I'm sorry you're here.

I know that some people automatically bristle at the thought of marriage counselling following an affair, but I found MC to be extremely helpful in dealing with the criticism/defensiveness cycle that kept bubbling up when we'd start talking about the A. In my situation my husband was already displaying remorse, empathy, and openness/honesty by the time we started, however our discussions about the A had a tendency to become unproductive. I would overgeneralize, he would become pedantic (his version of defensive), I'd become frustrated (read: heated), which would lead to him shutting down (which would frustrate me even more). We both recognized that it wasn't working and were motivated to fix it.

@InkHulk

The last time I posted I took umbrage to people saying I was rugsweeping, but it seems they were closer to right than me. So I’ll ask you what you see as rugsweeping. I’ll still say that I’m in a state where we are together and trying to be make things work. You can say it’s not really R, but then it’s what, infidelity purgatory? I get lost on that. I may be a slow learner.

I think the gist of the posts you have gotten on your thread so far is correct. Your WW betrayed you, for 3 years. And yet there you are, staying, rushing into R, despite the fact that your WW remains unsafe and her willingness to do the work seems rather limited--too focused on her shame i.e., self-pity. Your WW seems in general to have not had to deal with the consequences of her actions. You seem to be trying to isolate her from them actually. You even seem to be trying to stuff down your anger or misdirect it somewhere else in fact.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:13 PM, Monday, December 5th]

But it also seems like when I try to talk about big structural issues around the affair, she claims it is criticism, a horseman, and needs to be avoided. I guess it is, I’m certainly bringing up more than just a specific event.

I don't agree that bringing up "big structural issues around the affair" would meet Gottman's terms on "criticism". Criticism is typically an expression of disapproval and for the purposes of the Four Horseman, one would assume it to be less than constructive as in "criticism for criticism's sake". I think when we're talking about what's healthy and what isn't, what we're looking for is whether or not a criticism is constructive. If you're just up in her grill reminding her she's a cheater and rubbing her nose in it because it's serving as some kind of emotional outlet for you, that might be a legitimate complaint on her part. But that's NOT what you have described. You've described, "big structural issues around the affair". What it sounds like to me is that you're still working things out in your mind and trying to get an understanding of what happened and what it means going forward. That's NOT what Gottman's talking about when he refers to "criticism". OF COURSE you disapprove of your WW's cheating. Does she feel like disapproval is unfair or unwarranted? Does she think you should have approved of her actions? If not, your criticism is valid. In context with trying to move forward, it's even constructive.

I'd be looking closely for signs of conflict avoidance. While I do agree with Gottman's Four Horseman essay and have cited it many, many times, I don't believe that what he's recommending is that we avoid conflict resolution. Talking is how the sausage gets made and it's not always flattering and fun. But if you can't say what's on your mind, what's the point of being with this person at all? You might as well be alone if you're not allowed to say what you think in a constructive way. Like I said, it's one thing if we're haranguing our WS with outrage 24/7 and certainly, we should never sink to abusiveness, but it's another when you're trying to work through an issue and you're getting shut down. Citing it as "Criticism" when it's not would be a pretty good example of "Stonewalling".

To be honest, I don't see a "rugsweep" here. Your WW is clearly still not comfortable dealing with conflict resolution and, through the example you've cited here, there's Defensiveness and Stonewalling still, but I don't think R is off the table for you as long as there's forward progress. Coping with conflict is a learned skill in some regards and not one that WS's are famous for. So too is processing shame. While it's possible that she's just not sorry and is hoping to manipulate you into accepting no change in her character, it's also possible that she just doesn't get it yet. Yours are the boots on the ground and since you've elected to put some time into the R process, you can observe and assess at your leisure.

Thanks, Emergent.

My wife is trying, I genuinely believe that. She said it best the other night, she lacks emotional tools to deal with this. She is all sorts of disordered in attachment, with her mother having serious childhood trauma as the likely cause. Her shame is killing us, but she has been honest (I think), she has immense regret. But yes, she is too self focused I think. I saw in her search history a song about self hatred. I know she isn’t sitting over there proud of what she did, but she can’t seem to get past herself either. And that leaves me sitting in pain.

I appreciate your perspective on counseling. Your experience sounds familiar and we need to do something different. I’m willing to try it.

Your WW betrayed you, for 3 years.

Yup, I remember.

And yet there you are, staying, rushing into R, despite the fact that your WW remains unsafe and her willingness to do the work seems rather limited.

I chose to stay. She showed signs of really wanting to have a great relationship, starting with unprompted confession. She absolutely sucks at introspection. I’m hoping that is a skill she can pick up. But she is in IC and reading (some). I’ve found some evidence of her listing "character flaws" that are on point.

Your WW seems to have not had to deal with the consequences of her actions.

The most important people in her life, including her children and parents, know she is an adulterer. And that fact is sitting on her soul. And she has gone to work and lost the very comfortable SAHM life she had, and she has expressed sadness over that (in a tone deaf way, but I’ll leave that aside for now). She knows she has crushed me and has a front row seat to my pain. She hasn’t completely lost me, but I’d say she has started to feel consequences.

You even seem to be trying to stuff down your anger or misdirect it somewhere else in fact.

My last thread helped me stop redirecting my anger at POSOM and helped me realize it belongs with my wife. I’m not a super angry person in general, and just venting the hell out of what I do have at her would be destructive. I don’t need to scream at her for myself. I need her to know what I feel, but I agree with Brené Brown and others that anger is more of a secondary emotion. If I want her to get to the deeper stuff, I expect that of myself as well.

I chose to stay. She showed signs of really wanting to have a great relationship, starting with unprompted confession.

I chose to stay but in my case, my wife’s confession wasn’t unprompted — but a confession nonetheless. A confession doesn’t always equate to a ‘want’ of a better relationship and in my case, my wife knew we couldn’t get any closer with the secret. She went for authentic self more than a team move to begin with. Neither of us knew we would be able to rebuild from her choices, it was simply a necessary first step for her.

She absolutely sucks at introspection.

A frightening number of WS share this failing, my wife included. I think a lack of introspection aids some WS to have poor boundaries.

It sure makes recovery and rebuilding a LOT more uphill.

Six years after the confession, life is pretty good around here, but my wife still isn’t great about asking herself the hard questions.

However, my wife, knowing her Achilles Heel, has rebuilt her esteem, and has learned to establish very strong boundaries as well as shown me everyday she is all in on finding ways to strengthen and maintain the M. That was the difference maker, the one outburst I had early on when her words had lost their meaning (apologies, etc) and I made my only rule of our R, "Show me, don’t tell me."

And by that, I meant by her doing the work on said boundaries and reaching out and helping where she could to repair the damage she caused.

I don't know @InkHulk. Please reread what you've written. Your WW is complaining that she now has to go to work, as do what, 75% of all adults in their 40s. If that is not a sign that it is more about her pain than it is about yours, I don't know what is. She seems to have limited capacity for "getting down on the floor" with you to be with you through your pain, and at this early stage is even trying to dictate what you can and cannot talk about. After all she put you and your family through the past 3 years.

I truly do wish you the best, but before you can truly be in R, your WW will have to wake up, and going by the data points on thss site, it probably will not come until at some point after YOU finally having decided you have had enough.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:12 PM, Tuesday, December 6th]

Reconciliation, from the betrayed's POV, has always been a tricky issue, IMHO.

For starters, infidelity/betrayal shines a HUGE light on our own flaws. Enormous light. Okay, so how do we move towards reconciliation, and me not only address these now obvious deficiencies, but hold the line that NONE of these issues were any cause prior, during, and after the affair? How do I relay that any self improvement is not being done because of the affair, but because I now see these traits that should be addressed much more clearly?

How do I rectify the above, and yet hold my WS to my newly redefined boundaries that I expect of them?

The hardest part may be the actual wanting to reconcile, yet having no control over my partner. This is where, in my opinion yet again, that we NEED to get a little selfish. I don't want to call it a game of chicken, but we need to see the contrition and vulnerability from our partner FIRST. Attempts and progress-making are great, but it is a damn hard wait. And if we 'compromise' on any of our hard core beliefs, then all we do is help misdirect our partner, and ourselves, to the place we are trying to seek.

InkHulk, so what I guess I would say is that you have to hold to your beliefs over your wants. I agree with CT that your WW's personal view of your 'Criticism' is really 'Stonewalling'. There can be no "I guess we agree to disagree" on these issues. If she can't learn to see, understand, and change that viewpoint, then there is no compromise. It should be a dealbreaker type of topic, because it is a refusal to change a wayward trait. Obviously, this is not an immediate walk-away-from-the-marriage issue, but more of a piece of data that shows incompatibility between the two of you. That is why we often say that it is best to wait until we try to reconcile---it is far less emotionally damaging to observe if our partner has it in them to make the changes that we need. No, we can't be stone pillars lacking any emotion, but we can't be the vulnerable people we were prior....at least not yet.