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An extremely important step in the R process, is for the BS to be able to vent ALL of their feelings to the WS,and the WS to not only allow it,but to understand and comfort their BS.

It's important to express your anger. Not doing so IS rugsweeping.

No one says you have to scream at her, or call her names.

Your wife is regretful. That's not remorse. Unless she reaches remorse, you will never reach full R.

I never "vented" to my fWS. My feelings were extremely volatile at that time and to "vent" wouldn't have been constructive and might easily have crossed the line into abuse. My rage was scary enough that I needed help in IC to manage it. There's no way letting it loose would have been conducive to R. I just don't agree that expressions of anger are necessary components. Anger isn't the primary emotion. It's a reaction to other strong emotions, like fear and loss.

Your criticism might be coming from a place of anxiety. You just don’t realize it but it’s probably been with you all of your life. People who suffer from anxiety try to control everything all time and do so by criticizing or nitpicking or bossing. You have to take a long look at yourself to see if that’s how you communicate and if you think it’s coming from something hidden you might need to have some individual counseling to help you with that.

Her cheating is on her. Your criticism might have been difficult for her to live with but it does not excuse cheating. Both of you sound somewhat damaged and I don’t see how you can fix a marriage until you fix yourselves.

Just had a surreal experience: as mentioned we were trying a new counselor. I had emailed him before hand asking how he addresses cases if infidelity and he mentioned in his response that affairs are usually "symptoms" of other relationship problems. I responded that I didn’t agree with that, but thought we’d give him a shot, God knows we need some kind of help. Well today we go in there and start doing some introductions. And he launches into "nobody gets married intending to cheat, so something must have happened" (abysmal logic). He says that maybe it’s not 50/50, maybe 70/30, but that I would have to 100% own my 30. I started hyperventilating. My wife noticed and asked if I was alright. I said no, I stood up in the middle of his monologue and told him we wouldn’t be working together.
My wife does a good job of comforting me outside the office. We sit in my car for a while to talk and she expresses concern about my trauma. She asks me to try to address it in IC. I say that is a fair request but that I have one for her, that she work on her defensiveness. Guess what that kicked off: MASSIVE DEFENSIVENESS! It’s like in her mind that she shouldn’t have to hear anything about the ugly feelings I have. She said she felt inappropriately shamed when I told her I was so angry that she cheated on me with a fat, poor, poorly endowed, racist womanizer. She felt that by me criticizing the POS that I was going beyond acceptable bounds in this. I am incredulous, and even feeling like she is defending him, huge red flag. She thinks that she gets to stay in an emotional shelter while this storm passes over and then maybe she’ll decide to open up and be vulnerable. I just told her that she needs to risk and open up in ways that she never has before and if she won’t do that, it might just be the end.

Feeling super weird right now, like we’re getting to the bottom. Either we’re going to start building or it ends.

I am so sorry to hear about this InkHulk. But this is exactly what I think people mean by you rugsweeping.

You say you are trying to R with your WW, you rushed into it in fact. But events have shown that you both are *nowhere near* ready to R. Your WW is not only a selfish woman who cares only about her pain, but she is still sticking up for OM.

I really think you are doing both you and your family a disservice by not considering D more strongly. Is this the type of marriage you want to be modeling to your kids? If anything, your moving forward on D may even get your WW to wake up, if this is even possible.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:42 PM, Tuesday, December 6th]

Inkhulk- FWIW there are many MCs out there that buy into that malarky which is the same experience that a lot of BS have had here. Taking a WS into MC when they are still being wayward (selfish, dishonest, remorseless, fake victimhood) is not going to end well.

How do I know?

I had a similar experience the time I went and I handled it much like you did.

Your wife isn't truly owning what she has done. She might say she does, but words are cheap. What do her actions tell you?

It takes time to work through every justification she told herself. She likely still believes most of them. A WS doesn't stop believing the lies they told themselves just because they confess or are caught.

Guess what that kicked off: MASSIVE DEFENSIVENESS! It’s like in her mind that she shouldn’t have to hear anything about the ugly feelings I have. She said she felt inappropriately shamed when I told her I was so angry that she cheated on me with a fat, poor, poorly endowed, racist womanizer.

What would be the "appropriate" amount of shame then in her opinion???

The bottom line here is that her choices were shameful, and if she thinks she gets a pass on that without any commentary from you, she's not dealing in reality. LOTS of people, as you just saw with the MC you just tried out, think that cheating just happens and that it's not an indictment on character, but IMO, that's EXACTLY what it is. You can read my profile, we tried the old "unmet needs" model which spreads the blame around, and guess what?.. it's bullshit. Cheating is about the cheater. Unless the cheater is willing to change, you'd be reconciling with THE SAME PERSON WHO CHEATED ON YOU. If nothing is changed, nothing changes.

You didn't cause her to cheat, and if she's not willing to take 100% responsibility for the choices she freely made, that's telling you something. I'm a big proponent for taking personal responsibility in all things. You ARE responsible for your choices in the aftermath of dday. You're responsible for your words and your demeanor. But... her cheating is NOT YOUR FAULT.

Empathy isn't hard. It's not. All it takes is enough imagination to walk that proverbial mile in the other guy's shoes. Is she doing that? I think we all recognize that empathy falls short for the uninitiated. Intimate betrayal was something that I could NOT fully wrap my mind around until it happened to me, so yeah, WS's routinely fall short. But is she trying, because it from here, it seems like she's NOT LISTENING, and how can she empathize if she won't listen?

If you can't talk, you can't restore emotional intimacy. We have to be heard and seen within our primary relationship or what's the point of it? Talking is healing, and she's shutting you down. That needs to stop if she wants to continue trying for R.

I don’t think I’m rugsweeping, I’m not moving past this stuff. But I really don’t want my marriage to end. Like really don’t. A lot. And I think I know that I need to accept that it died and there is some chance of building something new IF we both do this right, but I’m not really there with that acceptance. And it’s hard when she is delusionally thinking she’s doing all the right things, because even though she isn’t, I know she wants something with me, I even believe she wants a good relationship with me. I told myself I would give this a year minimum. Tough day in the middle of it.

Really tough day today, guys, kind of breaking down. Thanks for listening.

You're doing well. I know it feels messy, but you're standing up for what you need. That's big. Hang in there.

Again, I can imagine this all had to be a very hard day. We are all rooting for you at the end of the day...

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:11 PM, Tuesday, December 6th]

Good for you for standing up for yourself. That's not always easy.

She said she felt inappropriately shamed when I told her I was so angry that she cheated on me with a fat, poor, poorly endowed, racist womanizer. She felt that by me criticizing the POS that I was going beyond acceptable bounds in this. I am incredulous, and even feeling like she is defending him, huge red flag.

Nope. You don't get to throw a bomb into the relationship and then act insulted when you have to contend with the debris.

And I think I know that I need to accept that it died and there is some chance of building something new IF we both do this right, but I’m not really there with that acceptance.

Yes. This is correct. It's a difficult concept because part of the reason you are motivated to want to stay is BECAUSE of the history and the foundation that you've built. Ask yourself though, knowing what you know now, would you be interested in building a new relationship with this person? There is no resting on the laurels of the past right now.

she felt inappropriately shamed when I told her I was so angry that she cheated on me with a fat, poor, poorly endowed, racist womanizer. She felt that by me criticizing the POS that I was going beyond acceptable bounds in this.

How dare she feel bad about her 3 year affair. And you are correct. She was upset you said mean things about her OM,and she was defending him.

It crosses unacceptable boundaries to say negative facts about the man who had a 3 year affair with your wife??!

This really says all you need to know. You've been told you can't R with an unremorseful WS, and her comments are why it's impossible.

Read the 180. Take care of you. Take care of the kids. Let her figure this out. Either she becomes proactive, and works on healing the damage she's caused, or she wallpws in self pity. You can't do the work for her. This is all on her.

[This message edited by HellFire at 10:24 PM, Tuesday, December 6th]

Nope. You don't get to throw a bomb into the relationship and then act insulted when you have to contend with the debris.

But that is how she talks. She says things like she doesn’t tell her friends about some things I do or say to preserve my reputation. I would happily put a video recording of all our interactions out there for the world to see and let them judge between us. I have had a couple outbursts, but I believe even her own father would understand if he saw the whole build up. She is so so so against any display of anger that to her it’s a wrong in and of itself, and if it contains anything that is against her, she’s instantly flooded. She takes something that I’ve said with tact, catastophizes it, and then gets mad at me for the way she said it. No joke. She sees the world so black and white. This is why I need a counselor or mediator. I need some hope that someone will tell her hard things and she will listen.

But I really don’t want my marriage to end. Like really don’t. A lot. And I think I know that I need to accept that it died and there is some chance of building something new IF we both do this right, but I’m not really there with that acceptance.

The problem with this mindset though, is that it leads someone to do THE OPPOSITE of what has been proven to work to "get someone out of infidelity" i.e., divorce, or REAL recovery with a truly remorseful spouse. OR maybe should I put it, it leads someone to do what has been proven TO NOT work, to "get themselves out of infidelity". This may also smack of codependence on your part too.

So, instead of focusing on YOUR recovery first and foremost, you are going to be putting your energy on reconciliation with your no-where-near-getting-it WW. Instead of giving your WW the gift of missing you and having to do more to earn the grace of reconciliation with you, you are going to try to 'coach' your selfish WW to remorse. I don't think there is EVEN ONE story on here for which this has worked.

Conversely, I don't think there is a single one of us who got ourselves out of a bad relationship who regrets it.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 11:11 PM, Tuesday, December 6th]

I think the key advice I got here was — letting go of the outcome.

I read this and was told this early and often, but it took a while to get my feet back underneath me. It took some months to find my value again, and to stand up for what I required from any intimate relationship.

Once I was knew I was good with or without the M, it really established the boundaries of the relationship and what was acceptable to me and what wasn’t.

Interestingly enough, I now apply many of the same standards to every relationship in my life.

Or, my bullshit meter is maxed out.

After infidelity, I have really heard it all now, as most of us have regarding WS justifications.

The first rule of infidelity is:

1. There is no justification in the individual decision to choose to cheat, it is always wrong.

The second rule of of infidelity is:

2. There is no justification in the individual decision to choose to cheat, it is ALWAYS wrong.

It is indefensible.

So, this MC doesn’t understand infidelity is an unbalanced wrong. Both partners are responsible for the issues they have, but a BS has no vote on infidelity. No one tells us the M has failed the WS in some way, legit or otherwise.

Your wife is 100 percent responsible for her choice.

My wife sounds as defensive as yours. In that first year of recovery, my wife was defensive on reflex — and 99 percent of defensiveness is defending a poor choice, or poor standard to both.

No need to EVER defend a good choice people are COMFORTABLE with.

She says things like she doesn’t tell her friends about some things I do or say to preserve my reputation.

Oof. Do her friends know she is an adulterer?

She is so so so against any display of anger that to her it’s a wrong in and of itself, and if it contains anything that is against her, she’s instantly flooded.

Anger is totally normal. It's not always productive but it is normal. It seems like your wife is invested in being the victim. It makes sense. If she's the victim, then there is some justification for her actions. If she is the victim, then she doesn't need to focus on her own misdeeds. Until she sees herself as the wrongdoer here - without any asterisk or exception, without any "but...." - she is not a candidate for R.

Were there problems in your marriage before she decided to go and blow it up? Probably. No marriage is perfect. Were you responsible for part of those problems? Almost undoubtedly - we all have our things. Focusing on those issues right now though is like going to the hospital for a gun shot wound and your doctor spending her time worrying about an ingrown toenail.

She sees the world so black and white.

Then she understands there is zero defense for her decision to break vows?

So, she is in the wrong, what is she going to do to repair the damage SHE chose to do?

Yeah, I could see codependency in me when I look that up. My parents had such a fucked up divorce, my dad chose booze and mistresses over our family, and my mom emotionally abused my brother and me with inappropriate disclosures and using us for emotional comfort, we were too young for it. I was past all this stuff, legitimately, living a good life. And now she’s gone and reactivated every trauma in my past, while adding the crown jewel to it.
I so hate the thought of divorcing. It was so life destroying for me as a kid, the thought of walking thru it again and subjecting my kids to it, it terrifies me.

InkHulk -- you will be alright.

I don’t think I’m rugsweeping, I’m not moving past this stuff. But I really don’t want my marriage to end. Like really don’t. A lot. And I think I know that I need to accept that it died and there is some chance of building something new IF we both do this right, but I’m not really there with that acceptance. And it’s hard when she is delusionally thinking she’s doing all the right things, because even though she isn’t, I know she wants something with me, I even believe she wants a good relationship with me. I told myself I would give this a year minimum. Tough day in the middle of it.

It is hard to get to that place of acceptance when your wants get in the way. The want to be married to her or at least the want of your current marriage not to end was a road block to me. Both of them were growths from me wanting to go back to a time before the affair happened. That is impossible but sometimes i catch myself still 'driving past that road' so to speak.

Everyone who has contributed -- thank you. As always you all a great help.