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From what I’ve read on the topic, for most people, empathy is like a muscle and it can be developed the more it is used. I don’t think it’s the type of thing that happens by accident though, I think it requires dedication and practice.

I’m trying to think if she shows empathy elsewhere. From what I understand about the affair I think she probably did with him

But she’s a chameleon with people, she shifts to be like whoever she’s around. And all kinds of people would say she is a good listener, but she never reciprocated and opens up to others. Until she did with POS

It’s hard to say if that is real empathy. I don’t think she does with our kids, they have taken on her emotionally distant characteristics.

She does have a lot of concern for social justice issues, that would seem to be a sign of empathy.

But, no, I do not believe she is actively pursuing rectifying this in IC.

I have told her today that I need space from her until she is adding to my life instead of taking away from it. I have no idea what the future holds, but I am so tired of being given shit instead of love.

In short, being a SJW (Social Justice Warrior) is NOT emblematic of having empathy. At least, not a sign of empathy towards those whom she is in a REAL relationship with and has to own her shortcomings to. It certainly is not indicative of any empathy towards the likes of YOU, Bub (sorry). In fact many SJWs are resentful of people who are financially successful such as yourself, as they are viewed as beneficiaries of the status-quo many of them rail against.

Maybe that is why your WW's AP was poor? But then again you also said he is racist i.e., against her professed beliefs(?), so maybe I am digressing here!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 3:16 AM, Monday, January 2nd]

I have read all 6 pages here and I truly sympathize with your situation.

As you stated she has not really shown empathy for you throughout your marriage. My guess is she either can’t or won’t so you should stop expecting it.

In my few years here on SI, and based on my own experience, most cheaters do not want to openly discuss the affair or even start the discussion with the betrayed spouse on "why did I cheat".

My H & I are happily R. Was it easy? Oh hell no.

A bit of backstory - my H admitted to his last affair (his second that I know of) when he came home hours late. I gave him credit for his honesty (huge mistake). On dday2 (six months from dday1) I had no choice but to tell him I was D him. From there it was the hard 180 and I told him he had to leave and I was executing my plan B / exit strategy. I stoped being a doormat and finally stood up for myself. 👍🏻

At that point he’s begging to R. I’m not on board. But in 3 days I start to see immediate changes. So I decide to give it time.

It was a rough 3 years. I kept waiting to "feel better". The only thing my H didn’t do after the first year was start any discussion about the affair. But he answered any questions or was willing to talk when I needed to. He finally stopped blaming me for the affair (we were disconnected was his "reason") and that took 6 months.

I stumbled upon a Will Smith video called Fault vs Responsibility. It really opened my eyes. Here’s the gist via a simple example. You are injured in a car accident and break your leg. Not your fault. (Neither was the affair).

However if you don’t go to the doctor and go to physical therapy, your leg won’t heal. The other driver, like the cheating spouse, cannot heal you. You have to do the work to get your leg as close to 100% healed as possible.

Same goes for you. You have to heal yourself from this trauma. Your cheating spouse can only do so much (and it appears that your wife has a limited capacity in that arena).

Once I healed myself and stopped having unmet expectations, my life improved dramatically.

I hope this helps you. Once you have gotten to a place of strength and healing, you can then determine the status of your marriage.

Understand you have to accept your wife for who she is. Certain things may not change. And that is what you will need to accept to stay married. And if you cannot accept them, you need to know that the only option is to D.

Your frustration is that you want things from your wife that she’s unable to provide. Doesn’t matter if it’s because she cannot or will not provide them.

Acceptance for me brought me inner peace.

Sorry this is long and I hope it helps you.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 9:19 AM, Tuesday, January 3rd]

In short, being a SJW (Social Justice Warrior) is NOT emblematic of having empathy.

This. I like to view that everything people do is for selfish reasons. Just that some of those selfish reasons come off as more altruistic than others. Some people do incredible unselfish work for others, but they do it for the joy it brings them. Or for how that makes them feel good about themselves. Or because they believe they are supposed to do this or that. This especially applies to views on social issues which are fairly low cost to have. Then you have the ones that do it for appearances. Almost like applying makeup to make their soul look better. I also think Empathy is more a skill or talent than a life choice. Some people's genes and FOO and social environment lead them to be better at it. Most people can still learn even as adults how to be better at it.

Thanks, all, for your thoughts on empathy development. Seems to jive with what a Google search says.

You have to heal yourself from this trauma.

1stWife, I like your analogy of the car accident. I think it sets up the problem well for discussion. Where it starts to break down (in my opinion) is that this is an emotional wound, and our bodies/hearts/souls don’t seem to have the same kind of healing mechanisms as we do for physical wounds, like skin and bones. Think of it like this: a wayward confesses in a suicide note. This isn’t far fetched to me, my WW certainly thought about it, even wrote notes. But if she had dropped on me that she had been unfaithful and then died, I can only imagine the havoc that would have caused me. It would be this triple whammy: d-day, losing your spouse, AND being forever in the dark about what happened. I still believe getting that understanding of what happened is part of the healing process, and that comes from outside of me.

I also do appreciate that there is a lot that I have to take on to heal myself. But I also still don’t know explicitly what that is. IC? Sure, I’m there. But is venting about the latest shit show a healing act? I’m newly giving myself permission to prioritize myself, with a standard of what would I advise my children to do if they came to me with this story some day. And I’m guessing that will help. But I know I still walk with a proverbial limp from my childhood stuff, and part of that (I believe) is from my parents being unwilling to talk about and fix anything. So maybe I fear that the best I can do healing on my own sucks. Sure, it’s better than where I am now. But I could "heal" into a bitter, guarded, "I’ll never trust anyone again" miser. That sounds like a shitty future to me.
No offense to any self identified misers out there.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 2:59 PM, Tuesday, January 3rd]

I’ll ask more explicitly: 1stWife (and others), if you are willing to share, what did your process of personal healing look like?

My own healing was very, very slow.

And while trying to rebuild the M, it is a multiple battlefront that makes healing from trauma even more difficult.

Your biggest trigger for your biggest pain and trauma is your spouse.

I didn’t really have a lot of success until I found my value, and understood that I will have a really good life regardless of how the M turns out.

I also had a rough childhood that included some unresolved issues, and I think that can make the current trauma feel insurmountable.

My focus was on me and what I liked about me and my life before marriage. Favorite places, spaces, hobbies, friends were all reminders of better days and the potential for new better days. I worked out more. I listened to music more. I read books about what healthy relationships look like, I watched movies and TV shows that were fun or funny. I took more walks. My sons are grown, so I spent time talking to them — they represented my very best work - smart, cool that showed I was a good father.

All of that became the primary parts of every day.

So much of the original shock of discovery, our esteem, our value takes such a massive hit — even when we truly understand that our WS choices has NOTHING to do with us — it still takes time for our crushed egos to catch up to reality.

It took me two years after discovery to get my feet fully underneath me. That’s when R really started as well, because I had two things figured out, who I am and what I want from life. Once I had those, my boundaries for ANY relationship in my life could be seen from outer space. I have zero tolerance for bullshit. I don’t play any mind games and I do NOT accept that behavior from anyone in my world. My circle of people in life is smaller, but stronger and better for me.

I got very, very selfish for a while.

I am good with that.

Infidelity is as selfish as it gets, so I made a lot of choices completely in my favor, across the board (work, play, etc.).

The strength eventually gained in finding one’s value is even better for R or D or whatever happens next.

My wife definitely responded to that strength, but I think she also got better at helping fix the M and had a great respect for my boundaries (although she wasn’t perfect at all, she tried and learned along the way).

How we heal ourselves is mostly an individual approach, but I found that leaning into what made me…..me, was the starting point.

I am not my wife’s shitty choices.

I am not less because she didn’t value herself.

I’m the same cool, badass father who was a big part of my sons’ lives, the cool sibling among my three brothers, the reliable friend, etc., and while it took some effort to get back to center, to get back to understanding my value, it helps me today and everyday now. Because I know how fucking strong I am and that I can overcome anything, and be great whether I am alone or in a relationship.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 4:21 PM, Tuesday, January 3rd]

I still believe getting that understanding of what happened is part of the healing process, and that comes from outside of me.

No. Nope. Not at all.

Getting beyond the desire to understand what happened is part of healing.

Understanding your W's thoughts, feelings, actions, motivations, whatever will not help you heal. Your example of suicide right after revealing an A is apt. What do you do in that sitch? Stay in pain for the rest of your life?

As Oldwounds says, the path to healing is owning your own issues and resolving them.

One way of viewing emotional 'illness' is that at least part of it is caused by one's self-talk. IC/therapy works - when it does work - by helping the client change their self-talk. IOW, one way to use IC is to hear the messages one sends oneself and to replace the attacking msgs with nurturing ones or, at least, to change attacks on oneself to neutral msgs.

What one's WS did and does is very important, but for healing, the most important issue IMO is what one says to oneself. Getting the self-talk right frees one from needing external validation (needing it is the problem; liking external validation is normal, IMO). Getting the self-talk right is a gigantic help in deciding what one will do. And getting the self-talk right is a gigantic help in actually doing what is necessary to achieve one's goals.

No. Nope. Not at all.
Getting beyond the desire to understand what happened is part of healing.

I’m just not tracking with you here. There is a reason that BS’s ask questions, because the hole in our life narrative is problematic (I considered using the word crippling, but that seemed over dramatic). I believe I will be better off if I can make sense of my life again. I think some of the dogma (meant in a positive way) on this site has been very helpful to me, most notably that I am 0% responsible for her affair. But I’m not feeling this one right now. I think if I never got any answers to what happened, I’d move forward with life from a disadvantaged place, but that filling in those gaps will help soothe my wound up mind. I’ll listen if the whole collective here of people who have done this say I’m wrong. But if so, then I’m missing something. Which is completely possible.

Thank you again for your kindness in sharing your thoughts with me.

I am willing to share my healing process.

First I had an amazing therapist that I saw for years after Dday 1 & 2 that helped me see my marriage was still salvageable. Otherwise we would be D.

Second I focused on improving my relationships with my children (teens at Dday).

Third I started to stand up for myself. I stood my ground and did not allow issues to be swept under the rug (the old me did that to keep the peace). I didn’t do it on important issues but I was all about avoiding conflict.

I stopped putting him first. It’s been 9 years and I still don’t do his laundry. He goes his own errands. I stopped making sure his needs were met and made sure my needs were met first. If I didn’t feel like cooking dinner, I told him — he’s in charge of dinner.

I went out with my friends more. I left him home to manage kids when I decided to go out for an afternoon or evening.

I joined a book club.

I joined a work out group.

I volunteered at my church more often.

I started my own business.

I made sure I was strong and self confident. I stopped depending on my H and my marriage for my self worth.

I gained my independence so that I would be good in life with or without him.

I don’t let him call the shots any longer. If I say no / I mean no. He cannot manipulate me to get what he wants. It no longer works.

Most of all I have an attitude of this: you don’t like the rules or how things should be, there is the door. I’m not standing in your way. If he thinks there is someone better out there, I’m not stopping him
From leaving. In fact, I would encourage him to leave b/c I will never go through that drama again.

I hoarded enough money to make sure I could manage if we D.

I have a post nup that excludes my assets from being included in a D settlement. I demanded that to even consider R.

I completely changed my mindset. For decades I believed I was sooo lucky to have him as my H. Now I realize he’s lucky he has me. 😃👍🏻

Old Wounds and 1stWife, I am very grateful for you sharing your stories. That helps quite a bit. As you have all watched in real time, I have been glacially slow to come around to the 180. I may be at a 160 right now
But the ship is turning that way. I am not fighting my feelings, trying to make myself feel or believe anything, just letting it fly, the chips will fall where they may. She is noticing and is highly saddened by it. Last night she tearfully asked me if we could just enjoy good time with each other while we seek help. I told her that she keeps hurting me everytime I get anywhere close to her and I can’t keep doing that. She asked to hold me in bed last night. I let her and then just broke out sobbing. I had to go sleep somewhere else. In the past I never would have done that, she says she hates it when we sleep apart. Yes, I see the irony.
My heart and mind are preparing for separation. My friends and family that I share with are advising or at least understanding of that. And maybe she’ll respond, I saw her pick up Not Just Friends again yesterday, which she only half read and even then highlighted the "waywards shouldn’t put up with abuse" parts. I guess we’ll see.

Interesting turn of events. I’m hoping she starts to "get it".

Here’s the irony of people. My H for 6 months kept telling me he wants a D. This was during his affair. One day he wants a D. Two days later he changed his mind. I was being played like a yo-yo.

Okay now it’s dday2. Same shenanigans. Except I wasn’t engaging in the drama any longer and I told him Since he had been cheating the past 6 months while I thought the affair had ended, I am now moving to a D b/c I am left with no other choice.

I then left the room. No further discussion.

He then realized he lost all standing in our marriage. He no longer had any say in any future decisions that related to me & kids. I did the hard 180 (maybe too late but better late than never) and I was polite but not chatty.

He then wants to R. I planned to D.

But I saw him have a realization that he pushed me too far. And that he now wants to R and I am not interested. That forced him to have to figure out ON HIS OWN what needed to be done to make amends and repair the damage.

In 2 weeks he started to show obvious signs that he got it. He got the message of the damage he caused. The pain he inflicted. The crushing nasty comments he made to me during his affair.

And that was what I saw and it helped us start to R.

But he was doing the heavy lifting. Because he finally understood his role.

I still believe getting that understanding of what happened is part of the healing process, and that comes from outside of me.

While I do agree with Sisoon that healing has to be on us — it is really the only way — if we don’t heal ourselves, that misery seems unbearable to me, to be trapped in a state of anger and sadness until the end of time.

However, and this is where I understand you, to heal the M, to repair the relationship, I had to understand what happened.

I had to understand what I was being asked to accept. I had to have an accounting of the time that was stolen from the M, from me.

That has helped to heal the M and made our R successful. By helping me to understand my wife’s spiral, she gained trust by being honest. Otherwise, your wife is suggesting the next time there is stress in the M, you should anticipate this pain all over again. Asking for the truth is not abuse. You’re not asking to rub her face in it, you’re asking so that you can make an informed choice about moving forward.

R is a two front war.

You heal you. She helps heal the relationship.

And thus, pretty damn exhausting. Uphill both ways and all that.

But your strength has to come from you, knowing you will be fine either way. She clearly can’t lend her strength anyway, she is justifying her distance and hoping it all goes back to normal. Which, isn’t really working.

Maybe I’m still conflating healing me and healing the relationship. But I still think that even if I 100% chose to D, I’d still jump at the chance to know the full story. Maybe that’s more morbid curiosity than healing. Just kind of feeling my way thru this.

Did any of you move out for a time, or have WS move out? That seems like something that could be a logical next step, and it also feels like a huge step, both emotionally and financially.

I have an in-law of an In-law of an In-law if that will help. This person has never shown empathy and has cause so much damage that her children suffered for years until finally they went to therapy. Don’t count on a change in her if she’s never done anything to show she’s changed.

I’m going to caution you here. Most betrayed spouses never get the full story.

Most cheaters hide details or affairs b/c they believe if they tell the truth (and I mean the whole story) that the betrayed will just decide it’s too much and D anyway.

The cheater cannot imagine we (as the betrayed) would welcome they truth no matter how bad it is.

I don’t want you to think if you tell her to move out she will "suddenly share the whole truth" with you. I don’t want you to be disappointed.

Your wife is not giving you what you need to fully heal and/or reconcile. That is a reason to live apart. But don’t expect she will come to you begging forgiveness and committing to telling you everything if you decide to separate. I don’t see that coming from her. As you said she’s not shown you empathy for years. I doubt she will start now.

She sees you sobbing and wants to just have a day together without the affair being mentioned. It just doesn’t work like that — but she will continue to keep trying that approach b/c it’s best for her.

I didn’t intend to connect those two ideas, getting the whole story and the moving out. I can see by putting them in the same post that would be confusing. But they are separate in my mind, I would not use moving out as a tactical move for that. If it comes to that, it will be because that is what I (or she if she beats me to it) thinks is the right thing to do. It seems like a scary big step. I’d welcome how others have approached it.

And I fucking hate that I will likely never get the full story and there is nothing I can do about it. I fucking hate that. There, I got that out.

InkHulk -- you wrote

Did any of you move out for a time, or have WS move out? That seems like something that could be a logical next step, and it also feels like a huge step, both emotionally and financially.

The veterans have much more insight than i do. As such i look forward to them chiming in with their experiences and perspectives. I asked my WW to move out in April of 2021. She moved back home in October 2022. That move home has proven to be costly for me. I had done my best healing starting in about August or September of 2021 (so about 4 or 5 months after she moved out).

Separating has its whole own set of downsides. However, getting out of the day to day hurtful behavior is worth a lot.