SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

JasonCh, what do you mean by costly? That old behaviors returned and it’s been painful?

Her old behaviors never left. It has been very hard.

Sorry, man. My heart goes out to you.

I had the opposite experience.

When I told my H I was D him it was not a discussion. Two days later I told him he had to leave. He refused. I told him he’s not staying here with me & kids. We are over and it’s time to separate and D.

I picked up the phone and called a friend and asked if my H could stay w/ him for a few days. Then my H was on his own — he had to find his own place to live. I had also told my H he was free to date or be with anyone he chose - the OW or anyone else he was interested in. I made it clear we were over and I would no longer consider it cheating — he could do whatever he wanted.

Yes I was a cold calculating witch with a B.

But that was the start of my H’s realization of how he totally screwed up. That was the beginning of many changes in my H as he realized just how badly he treated me. How he let his ego get in the way and allowed him to make poor choices.

Due to an unexpected death in my family he never did move out. I needed him ti be at home with the kids as I was running on fumes for a few weeks. I was emotionally depleted and Christmas was in a few weeks. He needed ti pick up the slack.

I still thought I was going to D him. Every day for 6 months I felt conflicted but I was leaning towards D. Thanks to a good therapist and my H making a massive effort to change, we are still together and we are happy.

In short order my H admitted his affair and 7 days later is D me (after 25 years of a good marriage) to be with the much younger OW. He had a typical midlife crisis affair. I prayed every day for this nightmare to end. Six months later I found my strength and kicked him to the curb. And along the way my H changed to put me & our marriage first instead of his own selfish needs and desires (flirty behavior with women etc). I still think it’s a miracle we are together.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 10:03 AM, Wednesday, January 4th]

And I fucking hate that I will likely never get the full story and there is nothing I can do about it. I fucking hate that. There, I got that out.

^^^^^^^^This is good. This is real good. It sure as hell doesn't feel it, but the above is part of the healing process....knowing things like this are out of our control.

I'd be willing to bet that at least half the members on this site don't have the full story. Many have enough to make certain decisions going forward; many aren't even left with an option of gaining information, as the wayward has up and left. And, like your analogy based off of 1stWife's example, there are members here whose partners have died/committed suicide, and have virtually zero chance of getting questions answered. But they have to move on with life. They have to do the best they can to try to make their future life enjoyable.

Acceptance can be a brutal thing, but can also be liberating. We never get 'justice' for a transgression like infidelity, but also keep in mind, that they are not responsible for our happiness. That comes from within.

I’m just not tracking with you here. There is a reason that BS’s ask questions, because the hole in our life narrative is problematic (I considered using the word crippling, but that seemed over dramatic). I believe I will be better off if I can make sense of my life again. ... I think if I never got any answers to what happened, I’d move forward with life from a disadvantaged place, but that filling in those gaps will help soothe my wound up mind.

I wouldn't attempt to R unless my WS is ready and willing to answer every question I threw at her, but R is not the only good outcome.

So ... IMO you can't R unless you get the true outlines of the A ('outlines' because it's impossible to remember, much less relate, every thought, feeling, interaction of the A), but you most definitely can heal yourself.

Your WS's refusal to come clean says a lot about her and nothing about you. You can't make her come clean.

And I fucking hate that I will likely never get the full story and there is nothing I can do about it. I fucking hate that. There, I got that out.

Yup. Yes. Absolutely. I agree with Jason - recognizing, voicing, and resolving that conflict within your self is healing.

*****

My reco is to separate what you want with what you do. I read, I think, that you want R. Right now, it's impossible, IMO, because your W is unwilling to do the work. You can't make her do the work, so your best bet is to

D - don't

E - even

T - think

A - about

C - changing

H - her.

*****

My process

On d-day, I had gone through several bouts of therapy, and I had hypothesized that the therapy that worked was therapy that changed self-talk. It reduced attack-self messaging and increased nurture-self messaging.

As it happened, our MC, who was my W's IC (she saw us on d-day), works directly with/on self-talk. So MC was a process of raising an issue - surfacing the self-talk - changing the self-talk. It wasn't quick. We had to deal with the same self-talk again and again, because attack-self messaging can be an integral part of one's world-view.

I asked questions for months. I still ask questions, though I've been down to a few a year, usually in the runup to the 'antiversary' of d-day or because of something that comes up on SI. My W answered every Q, although she deferred answering a few to the next MC session.

The Q & A served a number of purposes.

1) I took her willingness to answer as an indication she was willing to do the necessary work.

2) Answering helped her understand what I was going through.

3) Her answers helped her take responsibility for her actions, and that's the first step in changing.

4) Her answers allowed me to recalibrate to her body language, which was necessary because I had certainly misread it during her A.

5) Her answers helped me determine whether or not she was lying - I asked virtually every question in multiple ways, and the answers always tracked.

6) The Q & A helped restore communications and thereby helped bond us.

7) My W didn't want to answer Qs, but she did, because I wanted the answers - that said to me she really wanted to R and she really wanted to be with me.

I did come to understand her motivation for cheating, I think, but that didn't help me me gain any comfort at all. She cheated out of self-hate. So what? Her motivations are about her. How can they help me?

I don't know how long I'd have stuck around if she had been unwilling to answer questions. That's a choice each of us has to make for ourselves, if we face that situation.

I'll admit that I thought the answers would allow me to make peace with my W's cheating. That never happened, and I think the strong consensus on SI is that the BS never gets much comfort, if any, from understanding the WS - but the process of Q&A has many unexpected positive outcomes that don't occur unless the WS comes clean.

I was in good emotional shape on d-day. I didn't want to D, but I wanted even less to stick in an M in which either of us was unhappy. So I was pretty quick to define my requirements for R. My W negotiated some, and we pretty quickly came to an agreement on observable requirememts. As we progressed some of the requirements changed, but not materially.

Our M, who remained W's IC, required a change that I was OK with. That is, I initially wanted my W to focus on her A in therapy. MC/IC insisted that they work on the self-talk and how it affects everything my W did. That made sense to me in the end.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:12 PM, Wednesday, January 4th]

Re: anger that you’ll never know.

I’m ten years out now and we are reconciled, 5/10, would not recommend. He made the changes but has some BPD traits which have improved as he aged. He also lacks empathy. That part has not gotten better. It’s his personality. Can’t change it that much.

You will never know the truth because you are getting it from someone who lacks insight. It’s like asking a color blind person what color something is. The answer is not reliable.

If you ask a person who lacks empathy what other near misses they had with other people, they will have missed most of them. So if you asked your WW. "Hey, have you ever had inappropriate feelings for someone else other than the AP?" - her answer will be flawed.

You will never get truth from someone who lacks insight and empathy. You will get their version of their own individual truth, which is different from your truth.

I’m still sad that this is the case. Don’t look for peace from her. She is not your source.

[This message edited by 3yrsout at 2:58 PM, Thursday, January 5th]

*** EDIT: I meant for part of this is be a reply to WoundedHealers post on acceptance. I'm leaving it because we aren't supposed to delete.

I still believe getting that understanding of what happened is part of the healing process, and that comes from outside of me.

I think I understand this feeling and have felt it myself. There was a part of me that needed to understand infidelity and how people who commit adultery (esp my WH) think in order to fill in the gaps. Of course it helped me to talk to my WH. It also helped to read books, to follow stories and thoughts from BS and WS on SI. I read on adultery websites from active and honest WS.

There are patterns in WS' thoughts and actions. I personally think and act differently, so I needed to hear that to understand. It helped. If my WS had committed suicide, I would have researched and filled in my understanding, rather than releasing it as unknowable. I fully accept There are parts I won't know or understand though.

I can also accept that the desire to understand is not as strong for others. As an example, my cousin recently committed suicide. I spoke to my uncle a few weeks after. He did not have any experience with depression or mental health issues and was actively searching for answers and understanding. At the funeral a few weeks later, he said he was ok with never understanding and glad he still had his practice and could immerse himself in work and planning upcoming leisure travel. My personality is a bit different, and that's OK.

*******

In terms of my journey, I am over 6 years out and mostly R. Not at the status of writing a happy ever-after marriage story.

I did separate twice and found it immensely helpful. It helped to have space and calm. It helped me to see I would be ok, in fact my life would go on largely the same, without my marriage. My children would be ok. My WS said it made him realize I was moving on with or without him, and he felt it would have helped if I had done it earlier. But honestly, the second time I moved out his thoughts on continuing our marriage were irrelevant.

I think you do need to find an acceptable method of discussing feelings- of the affair, but also all the values around marriage and life and relationships. It's amazing how much I learned that my WH and I did not view in the same way. When we continued to talk, I could see and hear changes.

Here's a thing. Maybe you do need to tamp your anger and listen. Maybe you need to hear what she feels and thinks and values. It's possible you truly are different, and you won't know if you react and she clams up right away.

There are plenty here that say anger is a secondary emotion only. That it's a cover for fear and sadness. To me, it's a bit of disservice or downplaying. There's something else about feeling threatened or injustice or maltreatment thats undeserved. For myself, I had to get over that part of it to calm down. Does being a loyal, kind wife and mother mean I earned something from my husband? I had to accept life doesn't work that way.

You could try adapting a mantra about gathering useful information when you speak to her. I worry you are wasting the potential to truly know how your wife thinks and feels. It's not fair to stifle yourself now. I get that.

Honestly, it sounds to me like your wife truly wants your marriage from her confession and recent actions. It's a power struggle. She believes she will get it on her terms. She has truly bought into the concept that you are partly responsible for the cheating by failing her. She expects to convince you and have you step up. That's my take. If you give in to her now, you are doomed to repeat this whole pattern of her not taking responsibility.

[This message edited by humantrampoline at 9:27 PM, Thursday, January 12th]

InkHulk,

In case you're still following this thread, I wanted to add further thoughts.

My WS did reveal truths and personal insights into his values and behaviors with regard to life, marriage, and relationships of all sorts. These were things not revealed during dating or marriage prior to infidelity. I now believe these were related to deep self-reflection and insight on his part after the fallout of infidelity and remorse. There's nothing I could have done in terms of behaviour to make that happen. If I implied that, I apologize.

Yeah, still here. Honestly, wasn’t sure what to do with your post, it sounded like you were advising me to not shut her down. I’ve been described as intense, but it is also a calm intensity that very rarely boils over into outright anger. I have quite a few people that I have deep personal relationships with, three long time friends, and three siblings. I could and have bared my soul to any of them. So that intensity has not been a barrier to close relationships. My WW has zero close confidants. POSOM became the exception to that I have tried over and over and over again to soften my tone and mannerisms enough for her sensitive soul to be comfortable, and it’s never enough. Either my tone is off or she thinks I’m being too critical, or something, inevitably she finds some reason to not continue difficult conversations. One of her go-to’s is that I don’t ask her "curious questions" about herself. It’s like she wants me to lead her into a conversation about herself, as if she doesn’t have a responsibility to reveal who she is to her husband.
So yeah, I’m not sure where you are going with that. I need her to be the expert on her and then to share openly. Vulnerability and humility was at the top of my list of things I need from her, after all.

I had to forgive myself for letting myself be walked over. Not just when I was cheated on--I thought everything was MY fault as I accepted her revisionist history of our relationship--but in too many other areas of my life. It is still a work in progress as I still have some anger.

So InkHulk, don't let yourself be walked over going forward. Speaking of which, your WW betrayed you AND your family (she spent a couple of weeks with OM's family instead of her own) for all these years, and she is thinking about how you don't ask her "curious questions"...my jaw dropped reading that. Talk about unaware and entitled thinking on the part of your WW! If you take what she says seriously there, then well,....,you are letting yourself be walked over.

It's no secret that I definitely don't think your WW is R material and I think D is the answer in your situation, but probably I have already said that too many times. The ONE thing your WW should be thinking about, if there is any chance of R, is how to make herself a safe partner.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:21 PM, Wednesday, January 11th]

It’s hard for me to know when to stand up for myself. I have strong religious beliefs that laud the virtues of valuing others above yourself and perseverance thru suffering. I believe I can be wrong in situations and that my biases will make it hard for me to see when I am wrong, so I need to be extra self critical. It’s a major mind fuck to me that my spouse has had such evil motives for so long. I’m six months in and I can tell my brain still struggles to integrate this whole story.

But I am coming around. With the help of my close relationships, IC, and this community, I have some well established truths in my mind and if she tries to mess with those I am prepared to walk away.

I do believe she is trying to do the work right now, her words say so at least. I think she is starting out of a deep deep hole and seeing results will take time. I can hope for some low hanging fruit victories. We are starting with a couples counselor this week. I know the mantra is that MC isn’t worth it now, but I think it could help just to have a referee for a while. We did individual sessions with the counselor as part of intake. The first priority she (the counselor) identified was getting my wife to show some empathy and learn what a real apology looks like. Man, wouldn’t that be amazing. I don’t plan to do "marriage counseling" in the sense of working on relationship dynamics until we’ve processed the A sufficiently. Atone first, then we can talk about Attune and Attach.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 9:52 PM, Monday, January 9th]

Inkhulk,

I read your last post, and I realize that personality disorders get thrown around like yesterdays trash, but if she is, as I suspect, suffering from borderline PD, she is NOT CAPABLE of doing these things. What you want her to do...she doesn't know who she is. In your words, she is a "chameleon". And what she does know about herself, she doesn't like, so why would she want to spend time on that.

Have you had any recent talks with her IC?

Have I talked with my wife’s IC? No. It would seem inappropriate for them to be talking to me, wouldn’t that be breaking confidentiality? Why do you ask?

I don’t know what to do about the BPD side. I mentioned in the solo intake with the MC that my IC had suggested the term to me. Big picture, if she truly is unable to do the things I’ve set out as needed, then that will push things to either figuring out why or D. If she is mentally ill, unwilling to face it, AND acting out with infidelity, I can’t spend my life on that.

It's interesting that she wants you to ask curious questions about her. There's something there that implies you are not curious about her. Yet YOU are the one here trying to understand HER. I wonder what those curious questions and conversations would be like for her? Can you challenge this idea when you speak to her?

I couldn't tolerate being the sounding board for my WH's early therapy. I'm not proud of it. It focused on his childhood and his mother's neglect and him recognizing that. The beginnings of empathy (per WH's best therapist) are with a parent recognizing and responding to your emotions. A person has to learn to do that for themselves if they didn't receive it.

After the affair, I needed to focus on myself and what i needed and if or how WH was going to change. Yet, eventually I felt comfortable and safe enough to detach and listen.

One thing said to me early on in this process, before i found SI, still holds as true for me. It was that my WH and his AP were way ahead of me in this situation. Its true, whether emotionally or physically or financially. I was not prepared at all. They had had much more time to process. I think your wife has had years of feelings and thoughts where she has presumed your part. She might have ingrained bias that you don't care or aren't listening or justifying an affair. It may run deep. I have no idea how she can deal with that without a good therapist to challenge her.

I still keep with you needing to hold firm to her being responsible for her choices and actions. I do still think she's interested in the marriage.

I think she is interested in the marriage right now. I’m just not sure that I know why. She has so much to lose in a divorce. Wide spread exposure, huge standard of living decrease, loss of time with kids. With all that, it’s hard to be sure she really wants me. I’m going to have to really feel and believe that she does.

...it’s hard to be sure she really wants me.

I usually write about willingness to do the work of R as the most critical aspect of the decision, but focusing on your question can be equally effective.

A WS can change from cheater to good partner without wanting their BS, but if they do want their BS, I think they're more likely to do the work.

And if the WS doesn't want the BS, I think the BS would be wise to split without attempting to R. So R takes both willingness to do the work and desire to R.

I explicitly brought up the question of wanting to be with me. I don't know if that will work with your W, but I suggest it as an option.

I’ve asked the question explicitly, multiple times, and she says that she does want me for me. But there is that whole problem of lies and broken trust and how the hell could you do this, and for so long. I can’t just take her at her word right now.
First couples counseling session today. I’m feeling pretty anxious, just don’t know what to expect. I’m afraid it will be a show, her trying to be composed and look respectable for the counselor. If I’m forced to make the choice to leave because she isn’t really putting in the work, it’s going to be the hardest decision I’ve ever made in my life. Call me weak, indecisive, afraid, whatever. This is pretty much my worst nightmare come to life.

Every BS went through what you are facing now. Every BS felt they were weak, indecisive, afraid and whatever. You are facing nothing new. Your situation is nothing new. Your challenges are nothing new. Your issues are nothing new. Every BS walked through the similar path with similar pain and weakness. And many of them saw the light in the end and saved themselves You will too get through this. Don't beat down yourself.

One big problem with R is that it's a risk. Worse, it takes time to learn if it works, because the only way to know if it's working is to monitor yourselves for consistent work over time. Your W may indeed want you for you - but it takes a lot of individual actions for her to show you that she wants you (or not), and it takes a long time for those actions to be accepted by any BS who respects themself.

Sometimes one must act quickly, but the D/R decision is not one of those times. Only someone who can't stand to be alone (or has some other dysfunction) will commit to R with a WS before finding out if the WS is a good candidate for R. Only someone who thinks they can't stand emotional pain (or has some other dysfunction) will choose D before determining if D is, in fact, the best choice for themself.

(Note, however, that sometimes the WS is so clearly a loser that the BS can decide to D very quickly. I can't think of any sitch in which it's healthy to commit to R very quickly, though - one can immediately know they want to R, but that's different from committing to R.)

Deciding what one wants and what's possible before choosing between D & R may feel 'weak and indecisive', but IMO a desire to act in one's own best interest is a sign of strength and decisiveness in sitches that require a deep understanding of oneself and one's desires.

A WS's A says nothing about the BS's quality as a spouse, partner, or person. And yet, so many of us think first about we did di to cause the A. WSes, not BSes, cause As. To make the best decision for yourself, InkHulk (and every other BS), you need to expel a lot of common thoughts and feelings from your body. That takes time, and taking the time you need is exercising your strengths.

I hope you get a lot of out your CC session.