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Then she understands there is zero defense for her decision to break vows?

I believe she does know this. She says the right words around this.

So, she is in the wrong, what is she going to do to repair the damage SHE chose to do?

I’m not exactly sure how to answer, but she believes she is really really trying. She starts books but doesn’t always finish them. It’s a sore spot to me that she hasn’t finished "Not Just Friends". She is in IC, but I’m worried she is going down a path of her standing up for herself against me. Again, the black and white, she seems to think her listening to my anger and hurt would make her a "doormat". So somehow in her mind her self empowerment of pushing back at me is helping?

This is all really bad, isn’t it?

Yes

Well, I’m not completely lacking self awareness.

This is all really bad, isn’t it?

Well, you can use her black and white stance to continue to illuminate HER choice, her DAMAGE, and pain she chose to create.

WS don’t all fit neatly into either or camps (good people doing bad things or bad people doing bad things) — and no one ever wants to be the villain in their own life story.

Even if your wife truly is a decent person who hurt you horribly, the only way to rebuild the M is to own her choice and help with the repairs.

She is lookIng to defend the indefensible. She is aiming for the good person who did a bad thing, and clinging to that essence of good with every defense possible, either reasonable or irrational.

It’s her goal to save herself first and then maybe help the M. Thus, the shame spiral she cannot get around, due to the truth always being self evident: Infidelity is always wrong.

In order to give my wife some clarity, I told her the next time she felt like the M wasn’t going well — to either stab or shoot me — because they are wounds she can see and in many cases are easier to recover from with proper care. An extreme example, but hey, my R hit bottom once too.

Unfortunately just as there are bad MC who subscribe to the "affairs are about faults in the marriage" nonsense, there are even worse IC who also say the same thing. The big difference here between a bad MC and a bad IC for your wife, is that it is much harder for you to find out what your WW is talking about exactly with her IC.

This also comes down to Reason #437 why codependence and willing to save the marriage at all costs is a problem though. If your WW were to realize how badly she wants the marriage and how much she needs to change to keep you around, would things be going very differently. Who knows for sure, the selfishness is strong with your WW. There is a reason why the 180 and the advice to put your recovery before the marriage is given on here though. Your WW probably can sense however that you're going to stick around no matter what, so now she is acting like a rebellious teenager.

Again, you really would do yourself good to reconsider whether your intention to save the marriage at all costs is really a virtue or not. Your kids probably would be better off with you divorced than in a marriage this unhappy. (not to mention, that you need this marriage to survive this much, could make it even less likely it does, as noted already above)

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 12:19 AM, Wednesday, December 7th]

I hear you that you’re loath to D. However, if you have taken D off of the table, and/or your WW can tell from your words snd actions that D is off the table, she then won’t understand what’s at stake if she doesn’t do what you need to heal the M.

You need to make sure she understands that D is on the table. Not as a threat, or a false threat on your part, but a reality. She needs to completely understands that right now it could go either way, D or R, snd what she does right now is critical in this regard.

So, in a nutshell, as others have said, you need to let go of the outcome. You can’t fear D. If you do, you will be interminably unhappy in whatever form of R comes out of this.

I haven't posted yet in this thread InkHulk, but I have followed your story before this.

I'm going to go a little non-sequitor and instead of addressing everything in this thread, start primarily with the first post about the Gottman methods and the four horsemen. Others have already pointed out that gottman (What Makes Love Last) uses "atone, attune, attach" which mostly lines up with what we talk about here but doesn't think details help the BS heal and says broad strokes of the facts of the affair are sufficient. How many times and where might be OK, but where did he come, on her, in her, did she swallow, etc. might be dismissed as "not useful and additionally traumatizing". Since my wife had an EA, this difference didn't impact me, and it was essentially completely aligned with the general best advice here, which is only you know how much of the truth you need to be able to understand what you are healing and reconciling from.

In terms of the four horsemen, I think that Gottman gets this extremely correct. It is key here, that you and your wife understand the difference between *criticism* and *complaints*. If you are complaining about a specific thing, that's fine. If you use that to make a broad generalization of her as a person, that's not fine. So pretty simple there.

Now, in healing from the affair, she certainly has massive rebuilding to do. For Gottman, there is a lot in the "atone" and "attune" sections for this.

Moving into the "Seven Principles" of the whole thing. That's where the structural issues should be uncovered as you use a common framework to look at the marriage. This is also something you should think about as you look at the "when to throw in the towel" section of Not Just Friends. But if you reveal something as an ongoing problem, you have to figure out if it actually solvable or perpetual.

If a perpetual problem is underlying her desire for the affair, I think that's much different than if a solvable problem is underlying that desire. Is it a selfishness that can be overcome with appropriate reflect and change, or was there some core value there that really isn't going to change, such that the next time the right opportunity for an affair comes around, she will feel equally justified in pursuing it?

If you are working through identification of your solvable and perpetual problems, there is no reason that some of those problems could arise from valid complaints about the affair AND other similar issues without containing "criticism" of your wife.

Remind her that it's "you and her, working to solve the issues that allowed her to choose to have an affair" or something like this. That she happens to own and drive some of those issues doesn't make it criticism.

The Gottman methods and tools shouldn't be weaponized. They should help you generate a common understanding using the same language to tackle these difficult issues. If your wife is trying to put the affair "off limits" it's rugsweeping. If your wife doesn't want to hear or see your pain, it's rugsweeping AND minimization.

She needs to get to where she can talk with you about your negative feelings that were created by her without defensiveness (another horseman) or stonewalling (yet another).

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 1:37 AM, Wednesday, December 7th]

But how does one realistically avoid Criticism (in the Gottman sense of it being about the person) altogether when trying to talk about an affair? I can try to make it "Complaints" and keep it to very specific events, but good lord, she betrayed me. This is a deep deep complaint.
And I like the phrase of weaponizing the tools. For example, I told her that I reinterpreted some events in the past that before this seemed fairly minor but in this light look like warnings. I told her that I was concerned about the risk of her repeating. She got very defensive and told me I was accusing her of having a character flaw (I never used those words) and that represented Criticism and Contempt. My words were all in a controlled tone, it was total bullshit. So what I could have said was that what I said was a "complaint" as it was about specific events, and she then projected a criticism on me. But am I really going to get anywhere having a Gottman semantics argument?

She literally just said that I am asking her to allow me to "emotionally abuse" her by being exposed to my anger. From reading threads on here, I’d guess I am in the top 10% of BS on restraining anger. Damn it guys, this might just be impossible. Trying to let go of the outcome. Fuck.

Trying to let go of the outcome.

Tell her you are at wit’s end and there isn’t any way you can save the relationship by yourself. That is as honest as it gets.

So, she has no introspection, what about empathy? Has she imagined her pain if you had made the same choice she did?

If she broke the M, what is her plan to repair it?

I can only say at 7-8 months, our recovery was upside down and it would be almost 18 months before my wife figured out being defensive didn’t help. However, while my wife was equally bad at introspection, she at least cared about the pain she caused.

You need effort or empathy, something.

R needs both people wanting to rebuild. I haven’t read anything from your observations that she wants to save anything but her feelings.

I gave her the following list tonight and have basically laid out that I need these and if she is going to fight me on them that I need to detach for the sake of my mental health.

What I Need
Vulnerability and humility

Deep answers to why

Empathy uninterrupted by shame

Passion, including sex

The full truth, to my satisfaction

Respect

She seemed fairly defeated by this list, I can’t imagine taking anything off it. She asked what if she is doing the best she can right now and she needs help to acheive it. I said she could (and should) get the help and show me she is doing it. I can give time and grace if she’s trying, like you said OldWounds. But if she is going to just be defeated and quit and talk about my anger being abuse, then I really have nothing to work with.

Yeah, I could see codependency in me when I look that up. My parents had such a fucked up divorce, my dad chose booze and mistresses over our family, and my mom emotionally abused my brother and me with inappropriate disclosures and using us for emotional comfort, we were too young for it. I was past all this stuff, legitimately, living a good life. And now she’s gone and reactivated every trauma in my past, while adding the crown jewel to it.
I so hate the thought of divorcing. It was so life destroying for me as a kid, the thought of walking thru it again and subjecting my kids to it, it terrifies me.

I hear you mate. Very similar situation with me.

I’m two years in R and things are going well now, but I guess I’m still checking this site often, so I’m still a bit jumpy.

I think the Gottman school looks at how often the 4 horsemen come up. For many periods after d-day, maybe a week at a time, I felt contempt for my W because of her actions during the A. Long-term contempt is a relationship-killer. Cycling through it after being betrayed, maybe not.

I had feelings about my W's A. Wht was I supposed to do about them? Stuff them so they'd come out in 10 years? I had to process those feelings out of my body. For decades my W said she wanted me to share feelings, and I finally got what she meant. It was cathartic to share my grief, anger, fear, and shame. I realized that hearing my feelings was something I needed from her - and I mean 'need'. She didn't have to listen, but she had to choose between listening and D. She was of no use to me if she didn't listen.

To be a candidate for R, a WS has to take responsibility for their actions. Answering questions helps them do this. Dodging questions is a way of saying, 'I'm not willing to do the work necessary for R.'

I have no doubt that your W feels abused by your focus on her A. But answering questions and hearing you vent are consequences of betraying and not leaving. A good candidate for R takes the consequences and processes their own feelings out of their body.

Your W doesn't seem to be doing the work. So you think she'll ever do it? What are the indicators?

*****

Your requirements are a good step. I ask you, though: how will you know if she's meeting them or not? If you don't know the answer to that, I recommend as strongly as possible that you reframe your reqs.

The top 5 by SI consensus are:

NC - no contact; if ap initiates contact, WS shares that with BS and together they decide how to handle it

Honesty - answers all questions truthfully

Transparency - WS informs BS of where they are and who they're with at virtually all times

IC for WS - to change from cheater to good partner

MC - when 1 party wants it

In the end, I wanted to R only if my W loved me, was in love with me (i.e. desired sex with me), and agreed to be monogamous from then on.

*****

I think you'll have to accept her shame. What she did was shameful, after all. My W is still ashamed, and we're 2 weeks from our 12th 'antiversary'. I told her 12 years ago to deal with shame in therapy, and I'm aware as I write this, that I am now willing to listen a bit. So I won't say you have to like her shame, but you have to live with it, if you R.

But my W swallowed her shame and answered my questions; she still does, though I don't ask many questions now (can't remember my last one, but I'm sure I asked one or 2 in the last couple of years).

I’d listen to her shame, if she could express it in appropriate times in appropriate ways. Right now it roars out when I’m trying to talk about my hurts, anger, or feelings, and then she turns into a defensive angry monster. I can no longer tolerate this, it’s eating me up inside.

Asking how I’ll know if she’s doing it, I guess it will be that I feel it. That I feel that she is net building me up instead of tearing me down. She has been no contact. We have transparency. She has answered questions, but her pushing back on me asking further questions has been the trigger to this current low. She’s in IC, and I’m worried it’s a "stand up for yourself" message. I want a third party to help some communication. But those things aren’t enough. I need her to stop letting shame turn her into a monster and crushing me when I attempt to talk about this. Maybe you guys think that goes without saying and so it didn’t make the list, but this is my reality right now and I need it to stop.

Should you really be so surprised about this though? There are ways proven effective to get your WS to wake up, if it is at all possible. As people have said on here and your other threads a bunch of different ways, you keep doing THE OPPOSITE of that.

The advice is to recover before you even consider R, focus on yourself, recognize that your WW has "fired herself" from being your wife, and it is on her to convince you to give her another chance.

You instead RUSHED into R, have decided you are willing to do anything to stay married, and have taken on HER load in reconciliation, including coaching her.

And so your WW is acting like a rebellious teenager, including, it appears, picking a counsellor who is NOT a friend of your marriage. It's the same selfish impulses that got your WW to cheat in the first place. So what are you going to do now, try to control your WW's IC sessions more? Thing is, your WW could find an IC who would hold her accountable, she just does not seem to want to that much. Does your WW really choose *you*, or does she just choose to be married because of how hard it would be out there for her, her shame of being divorced due to her adultry, etc.

Understandable on your part yes, but so are the results you have gotten. We seen this movie before. What you are doing basically NEVER works.

Things won't change friend until you WAKE UP.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:11 PM, Wednesday, December 7th]

Look man, I know you mean well, but I am trying here. I don’t know how to do this. She confessed to me, I think that meant something in terms of how to work with her. It feels like she’s regressed, digging her heels in. So the situation is fluid. A week ago I thought we were doing pretty ok, maybe I will again in a week. People are saying that their WS took months to figure things out. What magic formula did they follow to make that happen? Were they all perfect 180 gray rocks until their WS "figured it out"? Or is there a fucking messy middle where we both are trying to see if we can do this? I just don’t know.

But how does one realistically avoid Criticism (in the Gottman sense of it being about the person) altogether when trying to talk about an affair?

I haven’t read the entire thread so apologies if I repeat what was already said.

You’re working on the relationship before you’ve processed the affair and the trauma inflicted by it.

In effect you don’t start working on improving a relationship until you first decide if you have one. When your spouse cheats on you, you take your time first to establish if they’re worthy of another chance and if you’re capable to remain in the marriage that has been stained by infidelity.

The cheater proves they’re worthy by working on themselves to understand why they’ve made this horrible decision and they are showing accountability by willingly discussing the affair, understanding the trauma they inflicted on you and supporting you to process the pain.

Only once you (both) decide that it is worth remaining married and that the affair has been addressed, you can start the hard work of what type of marriage you want.

It doesn’t mean that you can’t start some work in parallel, but by what you’re describing, you are behaving like it was the marriage that needs to be held accountable for your wife’s actions rather than your wife.

Violence aside, I am a strong believer of the WS witnessing the consequences of their actions. I’m not saying you should put on a show of destroying every dish in the kitchen in anger. If you can, refrain from name calling also. But being angry when your life has been trashed by infidelity is normal and protecting a cheater’s feelings should not be your concern.

The way I see it, my WH had to convince me he was worth me staying with a cheater. He had to convince me he was an adult capable to discern between pain and trauma anger, capable to focus on me rather than himself for a change, capable to do a lot of introspection and discuss his actions during the A openly, again, like an adult. He recently thank me for holding accountable as he believes it made him a better man having to face his actions.

You indicated that your W is in therapy. Have you had an opportunity to discuss any of what is going on with her therapist?

Just a suggestion, have you heard or read up on borderline personality disorder? Some things just jumped off the screen.

My IC also brought up BPD as a possibility for her thru my descriptions. She fits a lot of the symptoms on the Mayo Clinic website. Not exactly an easy thing to propose to a person. "Hey, I think you might be something like a narcissist, maybe look into that."

I’m having the worst time in a long time, guys. Please cut me some slack if I’m coming across sarcastic or defensive.

It doesn’t mean that you can’t start some work in parallel, but by what you’re describing, you are behaving like it was the marriage that needs to be held accountable for your wife’s actions rather than your wife.

I don’t think at all that it was the marriage that was accountable, hence the walking out the therapist mid sentence yesterday.
I think she knows better than to say something like that to me, but has some inner bend toward it. She wants to work on attachment and the 7 principles and try to get outside help with the affair stuff. I don’t think we stand a chance without outside help. But I wish she was reading How To Help Your Spouse Recover From Your Affair 5 times rather than relationship books that would have helped pre-A.