SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

He may not be a narcissist but showing some of the same traits due to his selfishness, refusal to accept deny responsibility for the affair etc.

Doesn’t matter though - it sounds like a nightmare.

Super, much of what my ex told me was bullshit, particularly right after dday1. Or it was reality so filtered that the truth was hard to find. Don’t believe him. And much of what he has been told was likely not true either. You keep trusting him, he has been lying to you, trust must be earned back, not freely given.

I would not talk to him about her. Period. Do not give him the pleasure. She should not be in your life in any way.

I suggest tell the OBS.

This is a very confusing time for you and your posts are a bit scattered. Going back to your original question about your marriage being worth saving, I think you definitively answered that a while ago: You don't want to "save" the marriage you had. The question is really whether you want to spend the next 5+ years working to obtain a different marriage with a man who has never made any effort to value or cherish you for yourself. It's time to ask some real questions about how to improve, not just your emotional quality of life, but your kids as well. What kind of life do you want for them? It's one thing to be a fun dad showering affection and gifts on them; what kind of modeling is that for them to become adult partners to another adult?

You already know that your MC is a crap counselor so ditch her. Find yourself a individual counselor who will help you focus on achieving a life you want no matter what your WH does. Whether he continues with the counselor he has, finds another, or drops out is irrelevant to what is best for you right now. The less introspection he does of course, the the poorer the prospects for reconciliation.. And that's fine, it will make it easier for you to work on your own goals.

About those books you guys have suggested, do they mention anything to do if reconciliation happens?

Reconciliation doesn't "happen", it is achieved through constant work by both parties. And when both parties are committed, it can take five years or so before the betrayed spouse is truly comfortable. As far as books go, Janis Spring's After the Affair is good no matter what path you take.

NOTE: Do not judge the OBS based on anything either your husband or his AP have said. You don't what lies your husband has told about you, don't be so quick to believe their lies about someone else.

He hasn't done anything so how can he still expect to get any emotional support from me?

To be clear, If your H were remorseful, and if you both want R, you'll owe him emotional support in his work. He has to do the work, but you'll want to support him.

The corollary is: if he doesn't do his work, it's best not to give him any support at all.

You don't see him doing any work. He wants you to support him. My take is that you have to work to detach and to not give him support. It's up to you to choose your course of action. You can use us for emotional support.

Now he looks like he is making effort to see the same MC/IC every week but refused to do anything and keeps telling me that I emotionally abused him over the years. He is using the same excuse now since I told him that he did that to me during one of the MC sessions before. Just so narcissistic!

I feel like I'm dragging my ass to "work with him" or just simply hanging out with him and the kids on weekends now. I really have no desire to do anything with him. I know my kids love him very much and he loves them deeply too. But it's just not enough for me! I'm not happy! I still feel miserable everyday.

You don't have to do that though. It seems like you think you owe it to him or to the children to try and make this marriage work. You don't. Your marriage ended when your WH chose to cheat. He broke it. You don't have to take him back, and beneath all his whining and bitching... he KNOWS it.

I think it would be one thing if maybe you had had a wonderful marriage earlier and there was still a lot of love on both sides. But you've described a marriage where you've consistently felt unloved and unappreciated with a selfish partner who keeps treating you like you're the problem. That's what he means by you "working with him". He means he wants YOU to change. He's the cheater. He's the narcissist. But he wants YOU to conform to HIS expectations.

What happens when you creatively visualize a life without him in it? If you sit down in a quiet place, imagining that you have all the resources you need, and you picture the home you want for you and your children without him in it. How does that make you feel? You and the kids can make whatever you want for dinner. Do whatever activities you like on weekends. You never have to share the remote control or ask permission to spend money. You can use YOUR good judgment to make daily decisions about how to raise your kids and how to take care of your home without any criticism or input from him. How does that feel? Because if it feels absolutely delicious, you're not wrong to pull the plug and put this marriage out of its misery.

We went out as a family with our oldest daughter to a local family event this afternoon and we all had a great time. But once it ended, everything was back to normal. WH couldn't go back to his brother's place so he had been playing with the kids till almost 8pm. He then just went to his car in our parking lot. He texted me and asked he could come back up since it's cold like 20 degree tonight. I didn't respond. Then he came up about 30 minutes later. I told him to leave. I asked him which part he didn't understand since I had said to him repeatedly that I just can't live with someone that I don't trust. I told him if he stays, I would leave. It's either him or me. I told him it was him who chose to leave me back (emotionally) then back. It was him who chose to cheat. He left 5 minutes later since I had to help kids brush. My parents saw the whole thing. My dad kept looking out the window after he left. My parents got soft heart and kept telling me that his family would blame me for doing that. I told them that it wasn't me who hurt their son in the first place. I don't know if you guys would think I'm cruel to him. But why didn't he think about all these consequences when he decides to see OW each time? I told him that "everything has its consequences". He is the one who used to tell me to have a plan in the future. Why didn't plan all these before he decided to take off his pants? He got more than 400 days to make it right before. But he chose not to. He didn't stop. He even told me yesterday even if he came clean after he slept with her the first time, I would still kick him out so what difference did it make? If I didn't discover, he would have just kept lying and cheating till the day he moved out on his own.

#Tallgirl, "trust must be earned back, not freely given". I will keep that in mind. I don't know if I could ever trust him. I just don't know how. I have never been so hurt in my life.

#NotInMyLife, I think I still believe a marriage is worth saving, but I am not sure if WH is worth taking. Like you asked if I "want to spend the next 5+ years working to obtain a different marriage with a man who has never made any effort to value". I'm not sure if he could do that plus he has to forget that woman. How do I even know if he will be able to do that? There is just no way to tell. It's just too risky for me to take him back. He seems to be a winner regardless, since he can always go back to OW if we fail to R. I'm not really planning to see that MC anymore. WH hasn't scheduled any session for the coming week so maybe he also agrees she isn't helping much but just someone nice to talk to. Like you said, what he chooses to do with his IC is irrelevant to me. I'm not sure how much introspection he has been doing. I just know he has been saying our communication is the biggest issue that we need to fix. He just thinks I'm too fixated on his cheating. He hasn't helped me heal.

"After the Affair" is also the book my own MC suggested to read. I have reserved the e-book at my local library.

#sisoon, like you said "If your H were remorseful, and if you both want R", so he needs to be remorseful first. I'm not sure how sorry he is or has been since dday. I noticed he only cried when he saw the kids in person/facetime or the kids were mentioned during MC sessions. I don't think I have ever felt that he felt sorry for me or all the pain he caused. He is probably only sorry how his life is more miserable now because he doesn't get to see the kids whenever he wants. I have been trying to detach from him since I found out the EA 1.5 years ago since I kind of gave up after he said nothing would help when I asked him to try MC back then.

Thank you all for your support and great advices!

FWIW, I am not a fan of "after the affair". I think there's a thread about it in the Book Club forum on SI where you will get some pros and cons. My biggest beef was what I saw to be a lack of parity. Example I recall offhand is she has a chapter directed to the WS and one directed to the BS. IIRC, the WS' chapter goes into things like 'there will be a time for you to address issues in the M pre-A". However, NOTHING in the BS' chapter even touches on that - as if it's impossible for the BS to have had issues with the M IN ADDITION TO the infidelity. I felt the chapter for BS was kind of shaming (covertly and implied - not outright) if the BS is having trouble managing the trauma response. I guess the bottom line for me is that it doesn't come from a relational trauma foundation (and I didn't even know what relational betrayal trauma was at the time I read it). For some BS, that can be re-traumatizing and de-validating (it certainly felt like that to me - then I discovered Breecker and Osterlind and Minwalla and Stephanie Carnes [Mending a Shattered Heart] and others and had a better understanding of why After the Affair felt so damaging and retraumatizing to me).

Not saying don't read it - just giving a different perspective.

How to Help Your Spouse and Not Just Friends were both much more helpful TO ME.

ETA: just realized it was the MC that recommended it. Given the things you've written about the MC, it makes sense that s/eh would recommend that book, which I guess kind of presumes the WS is actually remorseful and willing and able and WANTS to do the work. From what you have written, it doesn't sound as if that is the current situation with your WS.

Also, I've not thought of ATA in the context of the unmet needs fallacy, and it's been about 4 years since I read it, but wouldn't be surprised if that is an underlying theme to her views. IIRC, I remember thinking it might be helpful AFTER the WS and BS have some healing under their belts, AFTER the BS is able to manage the trauma response and AFTER the WS has managed to put a good foundation of marbles in the trust jar (concept is that every time they are honest, empathetic, etc, a marble gets put into the jar - lying, breaking NC, etc can pull marbles out or empty the jar, sending things back to ground zero). IOW, when both parties are really WORKING to change and are ready to start reconnecting. IMO and IME, reconnecting with an unremorseful WS is not likely to be healthy for the BS, and can work to make strong boundaries weak, etc.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 5:15 AM, Monday, March 28th]

Good for you for standing up for yourself.

I will keep you guys later. WH came back again tonight. He took a shower so far and played with the kids. I hope and don't think he'll stay.

I hope he is not weaseling his way back in by manipulating you because you don't want to be harsh in front of the kids.

Take good care of yourself!

Best,
Odonna

So let’s recap.

The cheating H is not doing anything constructive like counseling.

He’s not been remorseful.

He’s not been making amends.

He’s trying to guilt you into taking him back by playing the victim.

He asks to stay with you despite you telling him you cannot do that. In my opinion he continues to disrespect and ignore you.

Yet continues ti be manipulative.

How’s that working for him?

He does his own therapy sessions with the same MC/IC these days. I told him yesterday that I wouldn't do any more MC sessions with this current MC since she is not helpful. I don't want to waste my time with her.

He actually comes to our place to shower and visit the kids every night for about 2 to 3 hours since Sunday - the day that his brother asked him to move out. I don't think he actually stayed overnight in his car since it has been cold this week. I didn't ask. But I can see his car from the windows and I don't see any light or anything at all.

I don't know if he is truly remorseful. I can't tell anymore. I don't talk to him personally much anymore even we see each other almost every night. He buys stuff like cheesecake and other food that I like occasionally. But I just feel it's all a little too late at this point.

I don't know if I still love him. I have been trying to emotionally detach from him for more than a year. I actually feel a lot more comfortable when he is not around. I know what I want. I just don't know what to do with him. I don't want to do much with him unless it's kids related.

He actually comes to our place to shower and visit the kids every night for about 2 to 3 hours since Sunday - the day that his brother asked him to move out.

If memory serves, you had asked him NOT to do that, and yet he just barges in. I think that's going to be his M.O. going forward, he'll just keep barging in until he thinks you've accepted him back and then at that point, he'll be moved back in and under your feet on a daily basis. If that's not what you want, the only way to stop him is to see an attorney and MAKE him stop.

He's an grown man, and you've already said he can go to his mother's if nowhere else, but a grown man should be able to make reasonable accommodations for himself that do not involve barging into your home unwanted or making you feel guilty for keeping him out.

#ChamomileTea, I never let him stay overnight. He actually still pays the mortgage with me so it's actually his place too. Like my parents said, he could just choose to stay since it's really his home too. But I told them if he stays, I would go. I don't know if I will ever take him back. At this point, NO. I was happier when he didn't come every night. It's totally fine when it's just my parents, kids and me. He actually goes back to his parents' place afterwards. But that's none of my business.

What are you thinking at this point regarding the future? How do you see all this playing out?

I honestly don't know...I know none of us can live like this forever. Looks like everyone wants to take WH back except me.

Your happiness is important too, and you don't have to take this guy back. So far, he's not giving you what you need. Go back to your first post on this thread. Has anything changed? Do you feel loved or cared for the way you ought to feel with someone who is desperate to be WITH YOU. I get that we're a package deal and we come with all the accoutrements of established family life. But your initial complaint was that you felt like he wanted all the stuff back but didn't love YOU.

This guy looked you in the face and LIED for a year and a half. That's 548 days of pretending like everything was fine, all the while denying you CHOICE about YOUR LIFE. And all that stuff is something you can reconcile and recover from IF... a)you want it; and b)your WS becomes a safe partner. You are at no obligation to choose R unless it's something YOU want. This isn't news to cheaters. They KNOW what they're risking when they break their vows. Many believe that they won't be caught or that their spouse won't go through with it, but underlying that self-delusion is the truth that they KNOW what the results might be.

You aren't a bad person if you want out. You're also not a bad person if you want back in. YOU matter, and this is the one time you'll find in life that your total selfishness will benefit everyone involved. Spend time creatively visualizing what you want from your life, not just now, but in five years, or ten, or forty. After my WH's betrayal, I felt like I didn't even know who I was anymore. I had this feeling of tremendous loss regarding my own identity. Who are you when you're not your WH's betrayed wife, or your children's mother, or someone's daughter, sister, friend, or coworker?.. and what do YOU want from this life?

H2S,
Other people might have a "say," but they don't get a vote in your life decisions. Input is one thing, but it's okay to reject input. Because you are the one who really has to live with your decisions.

So, truly, do what's best for you.

Take care of yourself and trust what feels right for you.

I think it's the part that WH had been intimate with another woman during our marriage that bothers me a lot. I just don't know how to get over it since I believe I'm very traditional. It's just a deal-breaker to me. It was before and it still is. He knew it since I made it clear in the past but he still did it. WH is the actually the first guy I had sex with. I thought we would be each other's mate for the rest of my life even we were not happy before. I never imagined he would have done such a thing so hurtful to me. It's the worst thing that a husband could do to a wife. No one expected that including himself according to him. I still can't accept that I have a cheating husband. I hate that I have to share kids with someone like that. I just don't know how to cope or get over it or if I ever will. I asked him why I should give him another chance now while I asked him last year this time to give US a chance to work on the relationship but he refused and didn't think anything would work. Now he doesn't get to see the kids anytime anymore so he finally got a wakeup call and wants to do everything I begged for so long? I told him last night after he asked me why he couldn't stay overnight even in the living room and why I don't feel comfortable to let him stay. I told him that I don't feel comfortable because he betrayed and I don't know how to trust anymore. I told him it's just like I couldn't force him not to fall in love with OW or interact with her in the past. It was morally wrong and he still did it after I told him not to. He created this mess on his own and now I have to suffer the consequences of his actions with him. I told him not to use the kids as the excuse to make me feel guilty for not taking him back. I told him what you guys told me - "I'm not emotionally strong enough to make any decision at the moment". He asked me when I will be strong enough. I said wait till I don't cry anymore since I still cried last night when we talked even I don't cry everyday anymore. In fact, I don't know when I ever will be strong enough...

[This message edited by hi2super at 4:46 PM, Saturday, April 2nd]

You already are strong enough.

Not letting him manipulate you into letting him sleep on the couch or move back in shows you ARE strong.