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Well done Super! This is a difficult time and you are standing solidly on your own 2 feet.

I told him last night after he asked me why he couldn't stay overnight even in the living room and why I don't feel comfortable to let him stay. I told him that I don't feel comfortable because he betrayed and I don't know how to trust anymore. I told him it's just like I couldn't force him not to fall in love with OW or interact with her in the past. It was morally wrong and he still did it after I told him not to. He created this mess on his own and now I have to suffer the consequences of his actions with him. I told him not to use the kids as the excuse to make me feel guilty for not taking him back. I told him what you guys told me - "I'm not emotionally strong enough to make any decision at the moment". He asked me when I will be strong enough. I said wait till I don't cry anymore since I still cried last night when we talked even I don't cry everyday anymore. In fact, I don't know when I ever will be strong enough...

I agree with Tallgirl and 1stWife.. well done! You are already so much stronger than you thought. Your WH's established M.O. is to just barge in, to put you on the spot so that YOU have to be the heavy. First it's, "can I take a shower, then I'll leave", and now it's, "I've had my shower, I'll just sleep here on the couch". You stood up to that, and it's Step One in NOT SETTLING for less than you deserve. Kudos! You did great.

((big hugs))

Thank you all for your support. I wouldn't know what to do with him or how to be stronger without you guys! I would mostly have continued the MC sessions with him and got more frustrated every time.

I hope I will figure out what to do soon. Will keep you guys updated!

Please do. Try not to pressure yourself. Instead, just work your boundaries and don't let him push you.

((hugs))

one thing you can DO without actually making decisions is to consult with a lawyer about your rights in separation and draw up a separation agreement that specifies when he can see the kids, and particularly when he can see them in the home where you reside. It can also specify that you jointly continue to pay bills as you typically have. This will take away a lot of his leverage, and maybe you will see through his actions how he really feels about you (desperately sad because you are detaching from him vs. furious because you are drawing boundaries and resisting his manipulation). Getting good legal advice will make you feel so much better and give you confidence about drawing your boundaries.

Best of luck!

Odonna

[This message edited by Odonna at 1:34 PM, Thursday, April 7th]

Odonna - if I go that route, that probably just means we are heading for divorce then. I am still not sure about it. I am not comfortable seeing him that often these days but I'm kind of comfortable about where we are at the moment since I just don't know what to do with him. But I know what I want for myself other than my relationship with him. My own MC actually suggested that I should talk to a divorce lawyer about what I should know even it doesn't mean I will get a divorce. I guess I should probably look for one to talk to first, at least to find out what my options are...

If you are getting the same advice from your therapist as I and some others here have given you, then really give it some thought please! Gathering information - and even drawing up a separation agreement - is not a declaration of divorce. Heck, even filing for divorce is reversible. Even an actual divorce does not preclude reconciliation later. We have seen ALL of that here.

What it will do, however, is restore your power in the relationship. You will no longer have to ask and persuade and cajole; you can declare your boundaries with authority and have recourse to back you up.

Please start by talking to an attorney. Take that first step and then decide for yourself what comes next.

Best,
Odonna

I have gone to several first-aid courses, Heimlich courses, CPR…
I didn’t do these courses and then go out searching for someone choking or bleeding or having a cardiac arrest. I took these courses just in case. Sort of like when I put on my seatbelt in the car. Don’t do it with the intent of having a crash, it’s more just in case.
That’s the goal of getting legal information. Just in case.

For example: if you two separate and he signs a lease there is a risk you are financially accountable since you two are still married. Or if he decided to charge a Caribbean cruise to a card that was issued to him as a married man… A simple separation agreement could clarify issues like that.

Update - WH got covid this weekend. First, the kids were tested negative right after he found out. But then they started to feel sick two days later so now both of them were just tested positive. My parents and I were still negative as of yesterday but we are all feeling a little sick now since the kids sleep with us. WH has been staying in a hotel since he found out. It was all because he went to some stupid work dinner last Wednesday. Now we are all sick because of him! I really don't know how to ever forgive him. He came back to grab some clothes and wanted to stay with the kids so he can take care of them. He said he has been feeling better after a few days. I said no right away. We don't want to feel any worse.

My mom just told me that WH's mom talked to my dad a few weeks ago. She told him that I needed to see a shrink because of my mental health that I didn't allow her son to come back even he already apologized many times. She told him that I should look forward, not backward. I was so mad that she told my dad in order to tell me what I should do. Her son is the defective and broken one. Her son is the one who betrayed, NOT me. Just like you guys have pointed out, why did he think it was ok to cheat in the first place? That was just so morally wrong. She probably didn't know how to teach her son right back then although the other two sons are not cheaters. Maybe she needs to see one too! It's not right to defend her son like someone else's daughter means nothing.

Wow, that would piss me off. Not only him bringing Covid into the house, but his mom butting her nose in like that? Man, I'd be ballistic right now. Apologies don't fix a broken character. You either BELIEVE in Fidelity and Honesty or you don't. It's not a sliding scale. If Fidelity is among your core values and you actually honor it, you can't just throw that aside whenever you want. No one can MAKE you give that up. Your WH's problem is that he doesn't really honor these things. He's not a true believer. He's been giving lip service to it, acting like that's who he is so he can fit in and have a nice wife and a nice life. And he's NOT going to change until he does the really difficult and humbling WORK required to change.

I'm not saying people can't change. They can. But you will SEE that work happening and you won't miss the change in his demeanor. He's still trying to barge his way back in without confronting what he's done and fixing it. You don't have to allow that.

((hugs)) I know it's hard, but keep standing up for the future you want.

OP,

You said this:

"It's just a deal-breaker to me. It was before and it still is."

Then you said this"

"if I go that route, that probably just means we are heading for divorce then. I am still not sure about it. "

Based on your two quotes above, it isn't a deal breaker for you, at least not anymore. If it was, you'd be divorcing him.

Now, that's OK, it's your life and your choice but you are saying one thing and doing another is my point.

Since you aren't sure about divorce (and that's OK), that means it isn't a deal breaker for you anymore, if it was, you'd be 100% sure and divorcing him already.

Your lying cheating husband isn't showing himself worthy of reconciling, at least not yet, not even close.

OP,

Make demands. He WANTS to stay with you.

Tell him if that's what he wants, then he will do ABC and XYZ. If he doesn't, he's choosing divorce as you won't even consider taking him back until things are worked through.

Counseling is a must, if he won't, he's telling you that he doesn't really want you back.

Go on and on with your demands.

If you don't want him coming around, tell him. I get it's his house too, but if you say it, mean it. Either he moves out or you do.

Don't tell him he can't come over and then let him come over. Again, he can come and he can live there, legally but you can choose to move out if he insists on being there. I'd tell you to talk about that with an attorney BEFORE you move out though.

Just don't say one thing and do another.

Set, maintain and enforce proper boundaries.

I mean, he knows he messed up but even with that being the case he still isn't really working on things. If you take him back under these circumstances, he's going to feel bullet proof.

He needs to win you over, you don't need to win him over.

Be strong, don't say one thing and then do another. If you say it, mean it. The old "say what you mean and mean what you say" is important for you in all of this.

Don't let him walk all over you. He's the one who is the lying cheating spouse and he's the one doing little to nothing to make you feel better.

You can't make him do things, work on things. All you can do, if he won't, is to leave him.

I strongly suggest you talk to a lawyer about things, knowledge is power and you need to have more arrows in your quiver, in case. It's better to be prepared, ahead of time.

I'm not saying you have to have him served, but at least begin talking to an attorney.

I mean, your husband is doing pretty much nothing in terms of actually trying to reconcile with you so based upon that, you need to be talking to an attorney as that's where your husband is leading this to.

Take care

I know I was confusing everyone..I have been confused too. Honestly, when I don't see him, I know clearly that cheating is just a deal-breaker. But sometimes on weekends when he comes to visit the kids, it gets blurry. But I was with him and our 4 yo daughter at the park nearby today. I really didn't feel anything at all toward him. I just felt unhappy after what he had done intentionally (cheating) and unintentionally (covid) lately. I don't really see a point to stay with this man anymore. It just likes he is a stranger after all these. I don't see happiness with him even I noticed my daughter was so happy that both parents got to play with her. But there was zero interaction between us. We were just like two dead bodies standing next to our daughter.

I also realized this man has too much pride and ego. He definitely won't beg. I remember one of the prior couple therapy sessions, I mentioned to the therapist that he never initiated sex much even when things were good back then. I felt like I had to make the move almost all the time. The therapist asked him why he didn't do any. He said he didn't want to seem desperate. I was so pissed. So I was the desperate one then? He just rarely put any effort in this relationship. I really doubt he is doing much to save this relationship. He is just here to see the kids each time.

At the end of the day, I told him that he shouldn't come until weekend. It's just no point to come straight from work and stay with the kids for a few hours. He said he got covid from work, not from the party. So I definitely don't want him to come here that often especially straight from work. It really isn't his home or house anymore even he is still paying the mortgage. Don't forget the fact that he did leave me in the first place! I also told him that he had to change his clothes and mask when he arrives. We just can't afford to get sick again! It's good that he finally stopped arguing with me although he did complain why I didn't shower after I came back from work. I told him that I always changed my clothes immediately after I got home and I never asked him to shower right away so there was no double standard here. I know he is not happy that I'm setting all the rules here. But I need to protect my family more than ever now!

[This message edited by hi2super at 1:29 PM, Monday, April 25th]

Hi Super! How is it going?

After WH brought Covid into the house, I told him that he was not allowed to come here to shower anymore. I told him not to come anymore on weekdays since he won't be sleeping in his car. So what's the point to waste so much time traveling back and forth between work, our place and his mom's place? He has to wear a mask when he is here at home since we don't know where he has been - whether he comes from work or meets with the OW. We just can't afford to get sick again.

About us, we rarely talk these days unless it's kid-related. When we go out with the kids on weekends, there is ZERO interaction between us. Not sure what's going on with him. I don't know if he is still seeing his own therapist. Maybe he feels guilty about the whole mess + Covid. This is actually the fourth strike already - he was once divorced, then generic problem of his so I had to endure 8 cycles of IVFs, then I found out his cheating 3 months (exactly 3 months!!) ago and then Covid. None of his brothers have any of these issues. I really don't know how to deal with him anymore although not all of them are his fault (IVFs would probably be the only one). He said he had been having bad luck. I was like I felt I have been having bad luck since the day we met...I am the only one getting the bad apple here.

[This message edited by hi2super at 4:18 AM, Thursday, May 5th]

Hello Hi2Super

I dont believe I have commented on your thread before. But I thought I would give you some input from my perspective.

Firstly I do t know what culture you are from, but from what you tell us about your friends and family, there appears to be a sense that cheating happens and when it does it should be swept under the rug and accepted.

I am glad that you are refusing to do that. It makes for a hollow life. And you deserve better.

I think you said that the AP was someone he was in love with 20 years ago. For some reason they were not able to marry and he carried a place in his heart for her all this time. Why did he not marry her back then? His first mistake was to marry you without you knowing how or why he lost this first love. That was false pretenses for your relationship.

But I’m sure there were reasons they couldn’t be together. Even people that lose their first love deserve to find another. But he should not have made you uncomfortable in your own marriage, being silent about his feelings all these years because you were not her.

Let’s put that aside for a moment.

Another aspect of your relationship was that you decided to have your parents come live with you after your first child was born. Now I know that in many cultures this happens a lot. In some cases it can be almost expected. But that doesn’t make it any less difficult on a marriage.

The grandparents may have the best intentions, but even their presence can change the dynamics in a marriage. The spouse who is not related to them by blood can almost feel like a fourth wheel, or odd person out of the relationship. Now if he had good communication skills, which your husband obviously did not, the two of you could have talked about how intimacy and other aspects of a marriage can work while grandparents are living in the home.

But obviously this didn’t happen here. And as someone who has had some experience with a similar situation, I can tell you that having other family members around can mess with your head. And if he bottled that up inside him, things could become very toxic in his thoughts.

And since he did not have the skills to talk to you about it, and he still had a place in his heart for this other woman, and he was very terrible at handling the situation.

Of course these are never excuses for infidelity. Cheating is the absolute worst option short of physical harm. And I fully blame him for destroying your marriage. But it sounds like even if he didn’t cheat, the two of you would not have been happy in the relationship. Only tolerating it.

That is very sad.

I think you are doing a good job how you are handling all this. You deserve to be happy. You deserve to be loved. You deserve to be cherished.

Honestly so does he even after his cheating. We all do.

And if you cannot do that for each other, you are right to admit it now and move on from each other to each find it from someone else who loves you the way you deserve and loves him the way he deserves.

That cannot be achieved the way you are going now. So I actually think you should have one more honest talk with him. If it were me in your shoes I would tell you something like this:

It is clear that you never lived me like you lived your AP. I am actually sorry you didn’t get to be with her 20 years ago, as you wanted, since you actually deserve to be with the person you loved. I wish you loved me as you love her. But it is clear you don’t.

But I deserve to be with a person who loves and desires me like that. So do you.

I know it was hard on you living with my parents all that time. But you were and still are a terrible communicator. I need a man, a partner who shares his feelings with me. You are not that person. You could become that person if you chose to work with the right therapist to do so.

But I am not willing so wait to see if that happens.

So if you do care about me as you say, I would like you to work with me to end this marriage that never should have happened in the first place. Show me that way that you really do care. Let’s go to the lawyer together to make it happen.

I promise to be the best coparent i can be. And if we are not married I think I won’t be so mad at you all the time because you were never the person I thought you should be and I suspect I was never the same for you.

Once we are divorced, then perhaps we can become friends again. No guarantees. I doubt I could ever marry again, but if you did change, learn to share your feelings, and if in someways I learned to live life on my own, then maybe we could have a relationship of some sort again some day.

Perhaps we won’t. Perhaps we will each find the person who lives us the way we deserve to be loved.

I do t know.

But I do know we are not able to be together as we are now.

So please grant me this last request and work with me to make a better life for each of us, apart for now.

I hope you will think about it.

Hi2Super, I hope you will consider taking g this path. I think it can improve life for both of you and your children. And I hope he responds well to it.

Good luck.

This isn't your fault in any way, and there is no excuse for his affair.

Lots of people have lost loves from their youth. Mature people get over it and move on to love someone else. If he chose to marry you without being in love, that was deceptive and selfish and 100% his responsibility.

Unlike the poster above, I recommend you don't apologize for anything or try to empathize with him or make him any promises. You owe him none of that.

Just serve him divorce papers and go through the process as calmly and detached as possible. End contact with him to the extent possible and move on with your life.

If you consider marrying again, I recommend in-depth pre-marital counseling before tying the knot.

[This message edited by morningglory at 12:52 AM, Friday, May 6th]

And as you can imagine, I disagree with morning glory.

You’ve made it quite clear how you feel about his cheating. If you can get him to agree to work with you on ending the marriage thru divorce, that will help you in the long run.

You want to be in good terms eventually with your childrens father. It would be better for all if you both can achieve that.

Of course, if he refuses, then I agree, start working with a lawyer and have him served.

Thank you both for your replies!

morningglory - according to WH, he said he did love me in the beginning..but I doubt it was the same love as he has for OW although there is no way we could measure love. But like WH said, he never gave me a fair chance. I felt that too after I found out about OW. That's why no matter how hard I tried in this marriage/relationship, he was rarely happy with me. I honestly never tried to please anyone that much or that hard in my life. Like you said, i really owe him nothing, NOTHING! I tried so hard to conceive two children for him (or us) solely because of his genetic problem. He still didn't appreciate it. I mostly didn't need to suffer 500+ needles if it was another guy I married to. This is the only thing beyond his control...other things under his control, he screwed them up. He screwed my life, my kids' happiness and my parents' health. I just don't know how I could ever forgive him.

Stevesn - thank you for giving me a "sample" of what I should write to him. I am still not sure what to do. My own therapist told me the other day that I shouldn't make any decision while I'm still angry. I told her that I still feel very angry whenever I get a quiet moment for myself like the end of the day or alone time. I honestly don't know how I will stop being angry about him and the situation/mess he created. I hate the fact so much that I have two young kids with this cheating husband. I could have sucked up my "less" miserable life if he didn't sleep with AP. I even told him that I would have taken him back if it was just an emotional affair like the beginning. But having emotional support from AP was obviously not enough for him, he ended up sleeping with her. That's just so morally wrong, so deadly wrong that I still don't know if I could ever get over it. It still hurts so much every time I think about that. WHY DID HE DO such a HURTFUL thing to me? I might not be a very good wife. But I'm not bad at all. I did try so hard to be a good wife and a good daughter and a good mom at the same time. I might not care his emotions as much as he expected. But I cared for him the entire time. I definitely don't deserve to be cheated on. I don't know how long I could stay like this with him. He is not doing anything with me so probably just waiting for me to divorce him?! I'm honestly getting used to my daily life without him around. It definitely feels better during the week than weekend when he comes. I told my therapist that I had to make sure my place is clean before he comes since he complained a lot in the past about how dirty my parents made...my therapist told me that I still let him mentally control me even he doesn't live here anymore. I didn't know how to respond when she pointed it out. She told me to step away from him if he gives me anxiety. My life coach also told me to find something I used to enjoy to do. I think both of them are basically telling me to find my happiness on my own. I undersatnd that. But it's just so hard since over the years, I have lost myself that I didn't even notice that.

I might not be a very good wife.

OP - I would suggest you get this kind of thoughts out of your head. His cheating has nothing to do with you as many others will tell you the same.

Good luck and stay strong.

It's typically the cheater who is the less giving and less involved partner. Don't absorb your WH's excuses as truth. They're just the wild rationalizations of a guy with no integrity and no boundaries.