SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

He's clearly the monster here to a lot of people

WTF?

I just want to add there is a difference between giving someone an ultimatum and coming to terms that there is incomparability. The result can be the same but delivery changes a lot.

There is a huge difference between "Give me (fill in the blank) or else I’m leaving you" and "having a heartfelt discussion about the pain that her actions have caused and the inability to accept status quo in light of everything that has happened.

Divorcing over her actions is perfectly acceptable. It is also perfectly acceptable for her to say that she is unwilling to change. Divorce is inevitable in that scenario.

Dude, I really don’t think she is malicious in her refusal. She wouldn’t have outed herself and done as much as she did. She doesn’t even need to do the porn star crap you mentioned. Just open up and provide a normal sex life. She has the capacity to do far more as we know, but she doesn’t need to go back to that dark place.

Yet you still never answered the question.

WOES thank you for having the courage to answer. It’s simple, everyone here hopes it doesn’t come down to do this or divorce, but like you said if you are incompatible and after what she did, divorce should be on the table. But only if AN wants it.

I hope she gets the help she needs. But again, thank you for the straight answer. I wish the others would have taken off their dancing shoes long ago

WWTL. I’ll answer your question. No - it doesn’t make him a monster if he wants to D over sex. Plenty of men D their wives over sex with no infidelity involved.

In fact, I recommended a few posts back that he should consider D, to protect himself financially if this continues to drag on for another few years. Plus, D can give him the right space emotionally. They can certainly pursue R if they want to after D.

ANs WW knows this, yet she’s not providing the sex he wants. To me, logically, if she could she would, as she has done everything else required to successfully R with AN.

Maybe this is the source of discomfit?.. the idea that women are the "providers" of sex? Women aren't sexual vending machines, not even if they've allowed themselves to be treated as such during an affair. We always have sexual autonomy and much as OIN has pointed out, many of us spend our whole lives fighting for it. To have a healthy, compatible sex life, it seems to me that the experience needs to be one of mutual sharing, not "providing" or receiving.

I do agree with WOES. The sexual incompatibility is a legitimate problem in its own right. That's enough for the OP to choose D if that's his determination. I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise. The suggestions for R though would be to not get into some kind of coercive or transactional situation because it would mess his R up. He seems to have the situation well in hand at this point though.

the idea that women are the "providers" of sex? Women aren't sexual vending machines, not even if they've allowed themselves to be treated as such during an affair. We always have sexual autonomy and much as OIN has pointed out, many of us spend our whole lives fighting for it.

All married people, at least those in healthy, functioning marriages, end up being a provider of sex from time to time, just as we sometimes provide counsel, comfort, companionship, etc.

There's a difference between offering comfort, companionship, love, etc. and those things being expected of you like a job as if you were some variety of dispenser. I think that's probably what messes us up so often in marriage, because it seems to me the path for taking one's mate for granted. We load them up with expectations about what they're going to do for us and how they're going to make us feel, and whether they're filling the bill.
sometimes that leaves us with a gratitude deficit.

I do know that sex is different. It's too intimate to be treated like a demand or expectation. It's too easy to damage the other person when you're not respecting the intimacy and vulnerability it involves.

So it is completely in the power of the wayward to fix the marriage, and if the wayward is super duper sorry and dies everything perfectly, the BS should live and let live?

I know you don’t believe that.

No... that's a generalization. I wasnt speaking in generalizations. In THIS case, he wouldn't be here. He has acknowledged how she's done so much right. And if she was giving him the same she gave to AP, I don't think OP would have ever showed up here.

There's a difference between offering comfort, companionship, love, etc. and those things being expected of you like a job as if you were some variety of dispenser. I think that's probably what messes us up so often in marriage, because it seems to me the path for taking one's mate for granted

This confused me as hell. Are you saying a wife or husband shouldn't expect comfort, companionship, love, etc etc from their partners? Because that will turn their partners, especially if they are woman into a vending machine and the whole marriage into a job. Now, even expectation is an issue of incompatibility? We shouldnt even express our expectations. I think you are confusing demanding with expecting.

Maybe this is the source of discomfit?.. the idea that women are the "providers" of sex?

Please, don't make this a gender issue. Nobody here stated or hinted that they see women as 'sex providers'. If genders were reversed, even then, posters would agree that Mr.Asp should open up sexually willingly. And it's totally not unreasonable for Mrs. Asp to expect such things from him

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 6:10 AM, Monday, March 27th]

I don't want to get into a protracted t/j, but yeah.. I think expectations can often screw us up. Say, you had a shitty day at work and you go home, explain it to your spouse and expect she's going to comfort you and take your side. But let's also say, you were clearly in the wrong, and instead of sweet nothings of agreement in your ear, she tells you what she really thinks. I think it's a bit of a modern contrivance that people often believe that we're meant to be everything to our significant other and vice versa. That's just too much mindreading IMO.

I'm not saying that our partners should never offer us comfort, companionship, love, and all those good things. I'm just saying they should be free to offer it as a gift, not because they signed on as some kind of marital hired hand. Expectations are still going to remain. That's just human nature. I expected my WH to drive me to the hospital and pick me up when I had outpatient surgery. How much nicer would it have been though if I had perceived his efforts, not as an obligation, but as a gift of his time and care?

If genders were reversed, even then, posters would agree that Mr.Asp should open up sexually willingly.

I absolutely would not agree to that. I think everyone should be allowed to say 'no' to sex they don't want, and there should never be pressure. Doesn't matter who you are or what your history is. If someone says "do you wanna" and you say 'no', you shouldn't be made to feel bad about it. Sex is too personal, too intimate. IMO, no one should be pushed... man or woman.

I expected my WH to drive me to the hospital and pick me up when I had outpatient surgery. How much nicer would it have been though if I had perceived his efforts, not as an obligation, but as a gift of his time and care?

Obligation or gift, none of that makes much difference. If it's an obligation, then the issue will be he/she are not fulfilling their obligation. If it's a gift, then the issue will be he/she doesn't see me as a person worthy enough to be given the gift of their time and care. Either way, people will get disappointed if they dont get what they want either through obligation or as a gift. And that disappointment could be used as an excuse to cheat. This is what cheaters do, right? The issue is not how you see these expectations, whether as an obligation or as a gift. It's about whether these expectations are reasonable or not.

If people are keeping unreasonable expectations, then that reflects the flawed nature of their character. If they use these expectations to cheat, then that reflects on their moral deficit. I don't think this is the fault of marriage or other forms of committed relations. Or how you see these expectations. It's the fault of unreasonable expectations, flawed character and moral decay. In this case, moral decay and flawed character caused Mrs. Asp to cheat, and her self centeredness prevented her from opening up sexually to AN. I wouldn't even be surprised if, in her mind, she is the victim. It's still all about "me" in her mind.

I think it's a bit of a modern contrivance that people often believe that we're meant to be everything to our significant other and vice versa.

It's not modern contrivance. It's just teenage romance fantasy that existed since time immemorial. You are not wrong here though. Many cheaters would definitely agree with you on this. Many cheaters do believe that,"It is unreasonable to expect everything from our partner, and since one person can not fulfill all our expectations, we should look elsewhere".

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 8:28 AM, Monday, March 27th]

I absolutely would not agree to that. I think everyone should be allowed to say 'no' to sex they don't want, and there should never be pressure. Doesn't matter who you are or what your history is. If someone says "do you wanna" and you say 'no', you shouldn't be made to feel bad about it. Sex is too personal, too intimate. IMO, no one should be pushed... man or woman

.

Did you even read what i wrote? Did you not see the word 'willingly'? Let me reiterate what I said there she should open up sexually willing only when she is comfortable. Let me press on this. Every poster here agrees on this. She should not or can not be forced to open up sexually. If she is not comfortable and unwilling, then there is no need for her to open up. But, she should let go of the outcome. That is, if AN 'can not move past this' and decides to D over this, she shouldn't guilt trip him by saying,"You will throw away everything over a bj?". She must not reduce AN to a man who only craves for sex i.e a pervert.

Sex is too personal, too intimate.

This is what is hurting AN here. Too personal, too intimate thing was freely, willingly, and comfortably shared with POS AP. But, when it comes to AN, it is MISSION IMPOSSIBLE. And AN should not feel worse about it and just get over it. Because affair sex is illogical and is akin to addiction. It doesn't reflect on the hidden personality and preferences of the people involved. Because they regret it now, none of it was real when it was happening in real time. So, it should not be taken too personally and seriously. Any expectation (not a demand) of sexual intimacy adds pressure on Mrs. Asp, and so, it's absolutely 'no, no'. Minimize and minimize.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 8:37 AM, Monday, March 27th]

I think we're making some of the discussion too much like an on/off switch when we should be working with a dimmer switch instead.

In a loving marriage you compromise because you want to please the other person. You want to build the relationship. That includes sex... frequency, variety etc. You work to find a middle ground. And from what we know, AN is the one who compromised for the entire marriage as far as sex was concerned. On top of that, he's been compromising sex during R and it's bothering him. Not frequency, he said that was on the table plenty during R. But his needs for intimacy, connection and a relatively normal level of variety have not been met. So he posts here about it.

The good news is that he has now put the issue squarely on the table, with the help of SI, and there is some degree of movement happening at last. Awesome, let's hope it builds and makes a difference for them.

AN's WW has huge hangups on sex and her A may have reinforced those due to her shame and disgust for who she was during the A. But she now knows she has to work on this, she has to turn the dimmer switch toward more intimacy to have the best chance to R. The ball is in her court. AN isn't holding an ultimatum over her head, he's finally discussing his needs regarding sex and to be honest he should have done it 20 years ago. I am not saying she doesn't have a choice because obviously she does. Just as she had a choice to cheat on him and she took it. But it's also obvious that she owes AN some serious effort at moving that switch toward intimacy. And I think there's a decent chance she will do it.

AN, after dozens of pages of really good back and forth, to your original questions:

So I am looking for advice I guess, encouragement maybe? Do I need to give it more time? commit to a further 1, 3 or 6 months? or do I call time and accept the fallout as our family disintegrates.

In my opinion given the scope of the betrayal and the huge disparity in treatment of the POSAP and yourself with very little hope that anything will change as to the sexual aspect, my recommendation is that no more of your time be invested in this effort, and that 100% of your time and effort be placed into your own well being and recovery, including moving forward with divorce.

Next:

On the other hand, the PA was initiated with WW providing OS to AP, with it being reciprocated shortly afterwards. From what I can tell, the physical side of the A consisted of "pushing WW boundaries" and "opening her sexual horizons", as she was inexperienced as I was her first. Her AP seemed to get off on the idea of introducing WW to the new things, to rack up as many "firsts" as possible. (god that's painful to think about/type). WW was an active participant. Their bedroom was a whirlwind, whereas ours has been a light breeze at best.

I have a huge amount of resentment that at least some of the refusals that I experienced from WW during the A were at the urging of AP. He didn't like the idea of her being with me and not him. OBS confirmed that AP has a jealous streak. I still get angry that WW was denying me to "be faithful" to her AP - omfg - the hypocrisy!!

So yes - I am considering ending it over the sex thing. It eats me up inside, and twists my thoughts. I struggle to enjoy the things with WW as those mind movies play uninvited in my mind at the most inopportune times. I worry about if I am shallow to end it over the sex, but that is kinda where I'm coming to I think.

This will not go away. In fact, like chewing old style bubble gum, it may well get bigger and bigger in your mind as you keep mulling it over. I think this is alreafy the case.

I want to validate your thoughts here. Of course it eats at you. It will continue to do so. Oh, there are things you can try to do to mitigate the terrible effects of the mind movies; therapy, emdr, and such, but it will not go away and may never diminish.

I am concerned over this sentence:

I worry about if I am shallow to end it over the sex,

Sir, what is shallow about strongly reacting to the complete defiling of the most intimate and special physical sharing and expression of love and passion that a H and W can give to one another? IMO, youd be shallow if you did not react viscerally to this. Like many BSs, myself included, this is the most bitter pill to try and swallow. To then have this reinforced by her willingness to only allow starfish sex with you is unconscionable imo and is an indication of her limited willingness to be truly remorseful and to reconcile with you. Shes negotiating and her sexual offer does not go nearly far enough. Id reject the offer and stop being intimate with her.

To your point, odds are great that this will continue to cause resentment, eat you up inside, and twist your thoughts to a large degree and for a long while.

My last point is more of a 30,000 foot view. You are 50 years old. If you live into your mid to late 70s (average), you are entering the final third of your life. How do you want to invest that time? More specifically, do you really want to to live those years wrestling with this??!! Every new memory you make with her will be severely tainted. All relationsip efforts draining. 3-5 more years of therapy and recovery to maybe start righting the ship with absolutely no garuntee. Always looking over your shoulder. Always wondering if that desire for wilder sex will reemerge in her (very probable) but again, not with you. Wondering if shes just "white knuckling" the vanilla sex with you in order to maintain her lifestyle. Sounds utterly exhausting and painful to me. Im not saying that, should you divorce her, that there are not struggles on that path as well, but your efforts to recover will be more focused,more concentrated on your own healing and well being with out the constant poisonous reminders that set you back severely.

Count the cost sir. I dont think Im being unrealistic in my assessment. I may even be understating some of the long term ramifications of her marital treason.

I wish you well.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 12:53 PM, Monday, March 27th]

And if she was giving him the same she gave to AP, I don't think OP would have ever showed up here.

That’s a deep question…well statement. We will never know if it’s true.

I’m going to argue that even if she had done everything exactly as he could ask, that he would have shown up here eventually. There would always be that stone in the shoe that he would try to explain as something she did or didn’t specifically do, but that is more fundamental. He found out there is no Santa Claus, that he lives in the matrix, or whatever other paradigm shifting analogy you can think of. That is a thing she can’t help with, only hurt.

But I could be wrong.

It struck me this a.m. that Mr. AN has posted 13 times on this thread, out of a total of (including this post) 537 posts. That's less than 2.5% of the posting.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 3:12 PM, Monday, March 27th]

It struck me this a.m. that Mr. AN has posted 13 times on this thread, out of a total of (including this post) 537 posts. That's less than 2.5% of the posting.

It wouldn't surprise me if we never hear from AN again.

I had the exact same thought. AN's thread has been hijacked by two sides of an argument that I've seen spin out in no less than 5 to 10 other threads. Everyone should be responding the AN's needs, providing guidance and allowing the thread to play out at AN's own pace.

In every thread where the WW is withholding sexual favors that she freely gave the the POSOM, this thread jack happens. It's not going to be resolved. Both camps dig in and fight over the issue while in the mean time, the needs of the OP go by the wayside.

Don't run this poor man off please. HE needs everyone's help.

So moving away from the sex issue. . .

AN's wife talked to a therapist and mapped out a plan. Not a plan to heal, but a plan to railroad him into R before he had a chance to take pause and say, "Is this really what I want. Or to R I need. . ."

To those of us that have been BS do you remember how confusing it can be, right? A year is not a long time in healing from infidelity.

Low and behold Mrs. AN and an IC that will drive Mrs. AN's agenda are ready with concrete steps to R (The way Mrs. AN envisions it). Including minimizing Mr AN's feeling on topics that he has learned are important to him. That is not IC. That is using IC to manipulate the confused BS into Ring on their terms. Anyone can fake remorse.

Why do I think this? Mrs.AN reaction about him throwing the M away over oral sex . . .

To me this means she doesn't understand what she has done. She is taking R for granted. R is a gift, not a given.

Honestly I get the impression only now does he feel comfortable advocating for himself.

Yeah she is doing a lot of textbook WS in R things (Likely thanks to her therapist), but she is also likely doing them because she thinks it will erase her past.

To me a WS doing things because it takes them closer to their goal of R. Because if Mr.AN reconciles with her then her A did not happen.

Again, speculation on my part. Everyone is ignoring this part. AN's wife isn't cheating anymore, but she is definately still wayward. Her motivations are to salvage her life prior to the A. Sorry, but a WS motivations count. Hers right now are mostly selfish. Her refusal to look deeper for her real why show how "hard," she was willing to work for R. If she refuses (She will claim she can't) then she really doesn't want to fix this.

I think the IC co-conspirator needs to be fired and you find a new, neutral, third party for both ICs and MC. Her IC created some of this mess and she doesn't seem to be helping.

If what you are doing isn't working it is time to try something different.

AN, I've been through this too. Keep advocating for yourself and don't be afraid to create your own boundaries that help you feel safe. Always keep ALL options, including seperation and divorce, on the table.

At the end of the day if you can look at yourself in the mirror that is what really matters.