SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Why?

I never have placed a lot of value on this. I don't give a shit about why my W cheated. I just wanted her to change from cheater to good partner.

Time spent on 'why?' is likely to be time spent away from changing.

Besides, there's a standard 'why' that fits everyone and leads to change.

Our MC, who was W's IC argues that we run our lives by semi-conscious 'scripts', our self-talk, and she's not alone. If you join this school of thought, I suspect you'll conclude that WSes cheat because their self-talk tells them something like they are somehow entitled to cheat.

The way to change from cheater to good partner, then, is to identify the scripts and change them.

Most BSes are familiar with at least one script, the one that makes us feel ashamed of ourselves, even though the WS failed, we didn't. Healing pretty much requires changing the shame script, among others. That's why so many BSes post on SI things like:

'Your WS's A was about them, not about you.'

'Your WS's behavior is shameful; yours isn't.'

'Heal yourself,' implying or stating that giving up trying to control the outcome is part of that.

'You're the prize.'

'You don't have to R, and you don't have to D. You are free to choose what's best for you.'

All of those common statements and more aim to change BSes' 'scripts', their self-talk.

Where do we get our self-talk? IMO, we take in a lot of self-talk uncritically from our parents, siblings, teachers, friends, and media. A lot of self-talk gets generated as we try to make sense of the world as we experience it. We can't evaluate those messages critically because so many of them come in when we're very young and very inexperienced. Sometimes, they're the only messages we hear.

But the 'why' of cheating - and of everything else we do - is, IMO, likely to be our self-talk. The best, and perhaps only, way to change what we do is to counter our self-talk. Sometimes we are forced to act against our scripts. Sometimes consciously changing what one says about themself to themself is what does the trick.

This approach doesn't mean to imply that kids agree with the messages they receive. Rather, it says the kid is formed by the messages they perceive. I grew up in the US during the Cold War. I was formed politically by what I accepted and rejected as I developed. Kids in the USSR heard different messages. Kids in China heard still different messages. But each of us were formed by what we accepted and rejected as we grew.

Take a look at Seven Samurai, now on TCM and usually on Kanopy (from your local public library) or on DVD (also from your library), for examples of what can happen when one changes their self-talk.

Philosophy, why?, and change

I'm more willing than the next guy to get into philosophical discussions about infidelity.

At this point, I tend to think generalizing about infidelity is futile, because we don't have any good statistics about infidelity in general.

IOW, since we can't draw general conclusions, let's be pragmatic. First, heal. First, change. Then contemplate navels.

JMO.

Probable Fact: Now that I think about it, Seven Samurai will forever be the best movie ever made.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:32 PM, Sunday, September 4th]

Knowing it was part of the process of grief kind of gave me permission to experience it.

FWIW, HO…I totally get this. I think the critical part of your point is the "gave me permission". I also think it was wise to point this out within the context of grief…because grief/sadness is often an acceptable emotion (sometimes even empowering in societal conditions - ie, playing the victim) whereas expressed anger can often be taboo. I think it’s helpful to recognize that grief and anger are often intertwined - and especially so for a person that has learned only one of those emotions is acceptable. I have seen so many times that progress followed anger acknowledgement - sometimes in what seems like almost supernatural speed - because no one can become whole and healthy while still denying a part of themselves that exists. The larger challenge I see is when people are so disconnected from their anger that they can no longer even recognize it’s present. They also can tend to become extremely sensitive or intolerable to others’ expression of anger. Less able to look at/explore the root cause of the anger of another…and rather prefer for it to just not be expressed (or control how it is expressed) - even if that results in inauthenticity in the relationship.

DrS - you picking any of this up.

It's been a few days; things are seemingly going well. It's clear to me my WW is doing her best to save the marriage and I'm starting to *feel* loved again in her actions and attitude, which is a nice bonus.

I have a lot of thoughts flying through my head, so I'm looking forward to resuming IC this week--it's been about a month without a session. I'll work through the posts I've missed and group them together first as I may end up covering my current thoughts in my responses.

Sisoon, thank you for the messages.

Hmmm ... you say you think you're unheard. OK. That's where you are, so that's where you start from. What feeling(s) go with that - mad, sad, scared, glad, ashamed?

Feeling unheard makes me feel powerless I suppose. It's as though conversations with seemingly defined resolutions have no meaning.

I think that falls in-line with the parent-child dynamic and any parent can relate to it--how many times do you tell your kid to stop jumping on the bed? He'll agree and go back at it the next day, leaving you frustrated and compelling you to attempt some form of behavior modification (talk, punishment, etc.).

We forgive the child though because he's a child. With my WW, while I clearly view her in a similar lens at times, I have less understanding for her behavior because she is not a child.

Why?

I never have placed a lot of value on this. I don't give a shit about why my W cheated. I just wanted her to change from cheater to good partner.

How does one change into a safe partner without understanding why they're unsafe?

Time spent on 'why?' is likely to be time spent away from changing.

It seems to me answering the why is a critical first step. Without it, how do you know what to change?

Besides, there's a standard 'why' that fits everyone and leads to change.

Our MC, who was W's IC argues that we run our lives by semi-conscious 'scripts', our self-talk, and she's not alone. If you join this school of thought, I suspect you'll conclude that WSes cheat because their self-talk tells them something like they are somehow entitled to cheat.

The way to change from cheater to good partner, then, is to identify the scripts and change them.

Makes sense to me--an it seems we then agree that answering the "why" then "leads to change." I'd push further though: why does their self-talk lead them to feel entitled to cheat? What's different with their self-talk than ours? And why is it different? That to me is an interesting rabbit-hole and I imagine understanding the answers to those questions would lead to a dramatically happier life. It's a miserable existence to feel so entitled.

Most BSes are familiar with at least one script, the one that makes us feel ashamed of ourselves, even though the WS failed, we didn't. Healing pretty much requires changing the shame script, among others. That's why so many BSes post on SI things like:

'Your WS's A was about them, not about you.'

'Your WS's behavior is shameful; yours isn't.'

'Heal yourself,' implying or stating that giving up trying to control the outcome is part of that.

'You're the prize.'

'You don't have to R, and you don't have to D. You are free to choose what's best for you.'

All of those common statements and more aim to change BSes' 'scripts', their self-talk.

Where do we get our self-talk? IMO, we take in a lot of self-talk uncritically from our parents, siblings, teachers, friends, and media. A lot of self-talk gets generated as we try to make sense of the world as we experience it. We can't evaluate those messages critically because so many of them come in when we're very young and very inexperienced. Sometimes, they're the only messages we hear.

Makes sense.

Take a look at Seven Samurai, now on TCM and usually on Kanopy (from your local public library) or on DVD (also from your library), for examples of what can happen when one changes their self-talk.

Philosophy, why?, and change

I'm more willing than the next guy to get into philosophical discussions about infidelity.

At this point, I tend to think generalizing about infidelity is futile, because we don't have any good statistics about infidelity in general.

IOW, since we can't draw general conclusions, let's be pragmatic. First, heal. First, change. Then contemplate navels.

JMO.

Probable Fact: Now that I think about it, Seven Samurai will forever be the best movie ever made.

Seven Samurai is a wonderful film, but it's not even my favorite Kurosawa--Rashomon takes that honor. Also highly recommend these others if you haven't seen them: The Hidden Fortress, High and Low, Stray Dog, Ran, Throne of Blood, and The Bad Sleep Well.

(I suspect you'll say I missed your point, but I suppose I've reached the "stage of grief" where I'd rather discuss cinema than my WW. )

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 3:53 PM, Tuesday, September 6th]

IC never gave me this concept. This is a concept that I got from others here. But IC did address it in a different way. It was like a jigsaw puzzle and far more abstract than that. They work with you more with what your reporting to them and then ask you questions to help you come to the conclusion. I don’t think I would have ever described it this way without the site as a resource but I am not sure it’s needed to be described

I personally did a lot of reading too. You can’t see how healthy people think and how they manage their marriages without getting that perspective from an objective place. I agree it all has to get practiced, but for a little while I was afraid to do some of it because my husband was already watching for "signs of life" and would interpret things negatively. I see this in your posts now.

I think your definition of focusing on yourself is widely different than what we are trying to talk to you about. I don’t know how to connect that for you.

That's very possible.

Quotes like what Marie just pointed out is why I pegged you for the anger stage. (I know, you hate labels, but stay with me for just a minute here.

I don’t doubt you don’t feel angry.

What I have noticed about a bs who leaves the denial/shock/bargaining stage is that the reality hits them so hard it’s difficult not to feel contempt about the smallest things. Marie’s illustrated a few good examples that make me believe this is where you are but it’s all over your posts the last couple of weeks. The contempt is the beginning of the anger bubbling up.

Your framing is inaccurate. Those examples Marie recorded are not new post-DDay. Those examples our countless throughout our entire relationship. So if you're right in that they signify I have contempt for my wife now, it means I've always had contempt for her, not that I've entered a new stage of grief now.

There are a few reasons I think understanding stages of grief is important, they all boil down to if you understand it you can manage it.

First, knowing it all comes in phases helps you remember the likelihood of you permanently feeling anything is highly unlikely. Having some idea that there is a natural flow that is predictable reminds us that we are having grief reactions that are related more to he affair than to the all

aspects of her current behavior.

You may experience some things in a different order than someone else, and grief isn’t linear so you go back to stages until your understanding of your reactions deepen. But knowing what they are is important. I am surprised this hasn’t been discussed in IC.

This knowledge allows us to be self aware and recognize feelings we aren’t comfortable with as part of the process.. It is a small part of what we mean when we say focus on yourself. Educate yourself on the path to healing for you. It will help you become self aware of it.

It really only proves that your spouse has blown your sense of self-trust, security, and having a normal day to day life to smithereens. (Not to mention your faith in her) You already know that to be the case, proving it by analyzing her day to day behaviors is futile.

That's fair. I've returned to "normal" life now, but I'm often reminded of her betrayal and the result is feeling less secure. And I agree that analyzing her behavior hasn't been very productive.

I will also gently point out that while I have seen some growth - I see no real critical thinking when it comes to learning healthy boundaries, focusing on yourself, the difference between recovery and reconciliation, etc.

I do think recognizing the parent child dynamic was a break through for you but you are naturally not going to be an expert at modifying it for some time to come.

And while this is completely normal, I am pointing this out because you are having issues absorbing and implementing this information because it is foreign to you. This is what is happening to your wife.

She is learning a lot of new concepts. Until she can have enough time to absorb them, become aware of them for a period of time and practice integrating them, her understanding is going to be shallow. If I were to ask you about some of the concepts I listed, your answers would also be a very shallow understanding. It’s new for both of you.

This shit takes time from both sides. You are not ahead of her.

I think you're right with regard to my failure at creating healthy boundaries and focusing on myself. I find there's still a blur between me and us in the recovery process.

I'm starting to wonder again though if I need to soon take the leap into R. I feel like I have this artificial wall up and I'm not sure anymore if it's to protect me or to punish her. To be clear, I'm not intending to punish her; I just mean that the result may be that.

Now I will balance all of what I am saying with she is the one that has to do the heavy lifting for trying to regain trust and respect from you rather than it being the other way around. She needs to become consistent and reliable, but that’s hard to do when you are also needing to practice change. That is too messy and involves trial and error, failure, etc. So it seems erratic which is the opposite of what you are looking for.

And I'm seeing all of that--her trial and error.

She can’t make you heal any more than you can make her heal. Your focus needs to be 100 percent on healing, not on her progress or the relationship. You keep saying you need to understand where she is so you can evaluate her progress. I don’t think that’s true.

I think you can’t measure her progress, make a good decision for yourself, fix relational issues until you dig into your healing a little deeper. Your clarity will come from that.

You can resent that you have to do this work because hell yes that is unfair. It’s part of that shit sandwich she served you. But whether you stay married or not, that’s now not optional.

I don't resent the work, but I certainly lack clarity right now. There are a lot of balls in the air and it feels like I've hit roadblocks on my own. I'm looking forward to IC tomorrow.

I also think that you both will make more progress now that you see it’s a mountain rather than a hill. This period of time was the hardest for us to get through. He had a stranglehold on my faults because they were magnified. I had to stop being meek and not believe everything he was feeling critical of was truly a fault. I had to do things that was against what he believed should be happening. It started with the smallest steps, but at the time they felt like dangerous risks.

I started with stupid things like choosing restaurants. I never spoke up if I had a preference our entire marriage. This is what I mean about being the child. I hadn’t thought about that in a long time until you mentioned the steak story. I give it as an example because progress comes in tiny increments, not things you can measure week to week.

I'm not seeing any changes in her assertiveness, but I've requested it.

There are certain things about your description of yourself that it reminds me very much of my husband. When he has something to do it gets done. Period. Nothing gets in the way or he’s just beside himself. It took a relative of mine to ask me if he possibly suffered from anxiety. The more I thought about it the more I realized that it’s exactly what that is. He finally went to the doctor and was put on medication for anxiety and depression. He did not act depressed most of the time but he finally admitted to me he was all the time. Anxiety causes depression because you are always waiting for that bad thing to happen, or that bad feeling to come, or feeling helpless, and out of control. You describe yourself as controlling. You and your wife both have some issues you brought from childhood and until those get resolved you are going to stay at odds with each other because your expectations of each other are so high you cannot meet them.

Cooley, I appreciate the feedback. I don't think I feel *anxious*, though I do have a very active mind.

Anger is the controlling emotion. When we can’t handle grief, despair, fear, hopelessness, helplessness we go to anger. We can, in most cases, handle that.

I don't relate to that. Again, I don't feel overwhelmed with anger at all. I do feel all of those other emotions though.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 3:56 PM, Tuesday, September 6th]

RE: I don't see it for the latter. So, you don't think a child ever feels like they can't win with a parent? Trying to flip this so you might be able to see how it can be both scenarios.

Other things that you write, that I would view (if I was your wife) as you trying to one-up me, or prove to me that you were "winning" and I was the "loser" are things like,

(She's such a loser I have to explain everything to her)

(She can't even answer my pressing questions... loser!)

(Can you believe this idiot? The things I have to deal with day-in and day-out!)

Yikes! If my H said those things about me, I most definitely would feel like I wasn't able to "win" in his eyes.

I'm hoping by typing this out, you might be able to see why your wife may feel like she's always losing.

Marie, I understand why she feels like she always loses. I suppose the question is whether I feel compassion for her position. Historically, I have not. Is that something I can change? I suppose I keep pushing that off to R to find out.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 4:01 PM, Tuesday, September 6th]

I think anger has also gotten an unfair and undeserved bad rap. When we act out from it, it can become a negative. But without knowing how to constructively deal with anger, the result often becomes to suppress it or deny it.

On the emotional scale, anger is actually a higher vibration than the other feelings Cooley describes. It’s one reason anger can feel so empowering. It can be productive in that it often leads us to make changes that fear and sadness stifle. But often times it’s been conditioned out of us - and I tend to find that to be especially true of highly analytical thinkers. Over thinking is a common strategy to suppress feelings. (Ask me how I know! wink )

FWIW, HO…I totally get this. I think the critical part of your point is the "gave me permission". I also think it was wise to point this out within the context of grief…because grief/sadness is often an acceptable emotion (sometimes even empowering in societal conditions - ie, playing the victim) whereas expressed anger can often be taboo. I think it’s helpful to recognize that grief and anger are often intertwined - and especially so for a person that has learned only one of those emotions is acceptable. I have seen so many times that progress followed anger acknowledgement - sometimes in what seems like almost supernatural speed - because no one can become whole and healthy while still denying a part of themselves that exists. The larger challenge I see is when people are so disconnected from their anger that they can no longer even recognize it’s present. They also can tend to become extremely sensitive or intolerable to others’ expression of anger. Less able to look at/explore the root cause of the anger of another…and rather prefer for it to just not be expressed (or control how it is expressed) - even if that results in inauthenticity in the relationship.

DrS - you picking any of this up. blink

Not really, unfortunately. I feel a bit disconnected from the conversation on anger.

I can project why a BS would feel angry, but I relate to none of the projections. I'll try to explain from another direction.

I've talked about the thought I haven't been able to shake regarding my WW's repeated choice to give AP oral sex, swallow his cum, then return home to kiss me and the kids on the cheek while I made dinner (and was often entertaining my sister or father).

Of all the grievances, it's the one that has most powerfully lasted with me. I think that's the case because from a logical perspective, it's irredeemable to me--unforgivable. I wouldn't treat a girl in a nightclub like that, let alone a life partner of 15~ years. No matter how many times I explore it and no matter how many times my WW attempts to explain it, I'm left with an unresolvable situation.

Right after DDay when I told my mom about the affair--she was a BS with her second husband about 10 years ago--she told me all that matters is one question: can I forgive her. I thought I could.

But after months of examination, I arrived at the conclusion that it's not a choice I have control over--if from a moral perspective her act was unforgivable in my eyes, it's not within my ability to forgive her without redefining who I am. The result then would be years of me digging in on her, never moving passed the affair, while she would be stuck in an endless shame spiral. The marriage would end eventually.

There's an important distinction though--one I've been aware of since the first moment of learning about the affair.

The scenario I'm obsessed with from a moral failing (the BJs and kisses), also sexually arouses me. Why it does is perhaps irrelevant at this point. So when I look at her action, I'm not angered by it, I'm turned on and intrigued. It's paired with the deep sadness of her deception though--but there's no anger there at all.

So when I step back, it feels a bit bizarre. The hang-up for me isn't the horrible sex acts and mistreatment, it's *solely* the betrayal. That's why perhaps her acts of demonstrating love, as best she can, means so much to me now. That's what I think that I need to feel safe again.

It's an important distinction being missed here. If my WW came to me tomorrow and told me she's really into her co-worker and wants to go to a hotel room with him (she wouldn't obviously), my reaction would be sexual arousal, not anger. I *think* I'd be open to it (perhaps not in this moment, but in principle). If she went and met with the guy without telling me and I found out, I'd divorce her without a conversation.

And I understand the average BS is stuck with haunting mind movies and the feeling of unfairness that his wife went and had fun and he can't, etc. But the mind movies don't haunt me that horribly and I have no desire to cheat out of revenge. So there's no anger from where the anger would typically come from.

I stand back and wonder if leaning into my kink is the path forward. How do I forgive her otherwise? How does she escape her shame spiral otherwise?

The missing piece of course is her remorse, but I suppose that is entirely on her anyway. She's either going to get there or not, regardless of what I do.

Right after DDay when I told my mom about the affair--she was a BS with her second husband about 10 years ago--she told me all that matters is one question: can I forgive her.

Respectfully, no. All that matters is..is she worthy of forgiveness? Has she earned that through honest, consistent, remorseful actions,over a long period of time? Forgiveness isn't a requirement for R. Many BS have gone on to reconcile, but haven't forgiven. If it happens,great. But it isn't something you need to reach. A WS actions determine whether R is a possibility.

You say you think you may need to decide on R soon. What does R look like to you?

[This message edited by HellFire at 4:42 PM, Tuesday, September 6th]

Feeling unheard makes me feel powerless I suppose. It's as though conversations with seemingly defined resolutions have no meaning.

Gently, 'unheard' and 'powerless' are thoughts. They're associated with feelings, but they're thoughts. The feelings are mediated through thinking, and you have drawn conclusions that you're 'unheard' and 'powerless'.

To heal, I think you're going to have to deal with the emotions directly. Stop thinking. Start feeling. I know it's a difficult change to make. Two thinks pushed me over the edge of change; perhaps they'll help you (or another reader):

1) A therapist's directive to 'say it so a 6 year old would understand.'

2) A therapist's suggestion that I limit my choice of emotion to mad, sad, glad, and scared. All I had to do to figure out what I am feeling at any time is to pick one of those. Since I started doing that, I've added 'ashamed' and 'want'.

I'll say this: 'powerless' may very well mean 'scared'. 'Unheard' may mean 'mad'.

How does one change into a safe partner without understanding why they're unsafe?

It seems to me answering the why is a critical first step. Without it, how do you know what to change?

Looking for root causes applies to systems that are essentially 'mechanical'. People are not mechanical, or at least we haven't figured out how to predict individual behavior reliably.

Spending time on 'why' at best just explains the past. Commitment to finding the 'why' is no guarantee of change. Have you ever dealt with a weight problem? The 'whys' are pretty obvious. The benefits of being a healthy weight are obvious. And yet an immense number of our fellow human beings (including me) remain overweight despite knowing our whys.

Committing to change is likely (and maybe 'likely' should be 'guaranteed') to surface the 'whys' as the changer works through the attraction of making unhealthy choices and the resistance to healthy ones. But it's the commitment to change that heals, not finding out 'why'.

To R, both partners need to reduce dysfunctional behavior and increase functional behavior. That's a matter of training oneself to make right choices at decision points, again and again.

Here's an example that I hope illustrates my point. Suppose you work in a group that's mixed WRT relationship status and gender. Suppose a number of the members are young, single, and looking for casual sex. It's one thing to go with the group for drinks after work. It's quite another to decide to stay with the group as they hop from bar to bar looking for excitement. If you're in an exclusive relationship, what do you do? The right choice is pretty easy.

What if you really want to go out with the singles? A wrong choice is to go out with them. One right choice is to look inside and figure out what would keep you from wanting to risk your relationship.

I know that seems like an over-simplification. As life happens, most of us are drawn to certain bad decisions and/or resist good ones. But becoming a good partner requires making right choice after right choice. Again, focusing on why one made (and perhaps continues to make) wrong choices takes energy away from making right ones.

Right after DDay when I told my mom about the affair--...--she told me all that matters is one question: can I forgive her. I thought I could.

But after months of examination, I arrived at the conclusion that it's not a choice I have control over--if from a moral perspective her act was unforgivable in my eyes, it's not within my ability to forgive her without redefining who I am.

 1) Your mom was wrong - you can R without forgiving.

2) You most definitely do control your choice. You just can't control the outcome of your choices.

3) If a person is healthy, they redefine who they are constantly, as they integrate new information, new, lost, and changed abilities, new desires. You've already expressed a desire to change the parent-child dynamic in your M. That will take a major redefinition of your self.

I stand back and wonder if leaning into my kink is the path forward. How do I forgive her otherwise? How does she escape her shame spiral otherwise?

What do you do in IC? If your IC isn't getting you into real feelings - not 'unheard', 'powerless', 'unsafe' - your IC needs to change or you may need to change ICs.

How will love bombing help? You've got an IC - use them.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:13 PM, Tuesday, September 6th]

I spent a lot of time on the "why’s".

At the end of the day, my WW cheated because:

1. She wanted to.
2. The opportunity was there.
3. She didn’t care about the consequences.

There are all sorts of other "reasons" but breaking it down to its simplest form, cheaters are weak people. Every person that cheats on their significant other makes lots of conscious choices to cheat.

Looking at my WW’s A’s, she knew exactly what she was doing. That first deleted text message that was "over the line" was the start of it all.

Depression, FOO issues, "fog", alcohol, etc are all justifications for sh!tty behaviour.

Respectfully, no. All that matters is..is she worthy of forgiveness? Has she earned that through honest, consistent, remorseful actions,over a long period of time? Forgiveness isn't a requirement for R. Many BS have gone on to reconcile, but haven't forgiven. If it happens,great. But it isn't something you need to reach. A WS actions determine whether R is a possibility.

I think her point was that if I couldn't forgive her, I'd spend a lot of time punishing her and she'd spend a lot of time feeling awful and we'd never get to solid ground. I agree with the assessment. If I'm not willing to move passed the affair, I can't move forward with her.

Honestly, I'm not sure how R would work for me without my forgiveness. And my path to forgiveness may be a bit different than most BS.

You say you think you may need to decide on R soon. What does R look like to you?

Perhaps I don't need to do it as much as it's starting to feel like the right step. I'll be cautious though and will be going through a series of checks and balances in my head before I offer that. It also means several more weeks without incident though.

And R for me feels like a commitment from both of us to build on just being kind to one another and actually start forming the boundaries of a new relationship. I'm not sure we're ready for that yet though. I'm operating largely on feel and not in a rush to do anything right now.

Yes, that's part of R. But,just because you decide to R,that doesn't mean her work is done. A huge part of R is the WS continuing to work on themselves,to become a safe partner. They continue to work on finding their "whys." Several FWS here have said it takes years to really get to their true why.

Also,during R, the BS needs to work on themselves,and heal from the trauma they've been dealing with.

R is not something you reach. It's an ongoing process. Many say it takes 3 to 5 years.

I am a BS who has not fogiven my husband. I don't know if I ever will. That doesn't mean I punish him. Actually, for the first few years, our R looked very much like the reconciliation process that the majority of BS, and WS, on this site, go through. He had consequences, sure. But I don't see that as a punishment. Rather a natural occurrence that happens after one cheats on their spouse.

It's been over a decade since dday,and we started reconciliation very soon afterwards. It wasn't linear. But it was consistent, with him doing the heavy lifting,and me trying to accept what had happened. Acceptance is a must, but,for me, forgiveness was not.

I no longer talk about the affair. It's just something that happened in our past. We've moved on. Any issues we have now, are normal marital problems.

I believe you have been attempting reconciliation from the beginning. All of the work she is doing,and all of your questions, and trying to understand, are all part of the reconciliation process.

Your hindrance is her lack of remorse. But, that may come in time.

I think most here would agree with me. You ARE reconciling. Will it work? That depends on her. And,as you said it's important to you, whether you can find forgiveness.

[This message edited by HellFire at 7:01 PM, Tuesday, September 6th]

Gently, 'unheard' and 'powerless' are thoughts. They're associated with feelings, but they're thoughts. The feelings are mediated through thinking, and you have drawn conclusions that you're 'unheard' and 'powerless'.

To heal, I think you're going to have to deal with the emotions directly. Stop thinking. Start feeling. I know it's a difficult change to make. Two thinks pushed me over the edge of change; perhaps they'll help you (or another reader):

1) A therapist's directive to 'say it so a 6 year old would understand.'

2) A therapist's suggestion that I limit my choice of emotion to mad, sad, glad, and scared. All I had to do to figure out what I am feeling at any time is to pick one of those. Since I started doing that, I've added 'ashamed' and 'want'.

I'll say this: 'powerless' may very well mean 'scared'. 'Unheard' may mean 'mad'.

With those parameters, I'd lean toward powerless making me feel sad. I don't feel ashamed about it. Mad is possible in moments, but any anger is fleeting--when I think of it, I'm sad.

Looking for root causes applies to systems that are essentially 'mechanical'. People are not mechanical, or at least we haven't figured out how to predict individual behavior reliably.

That's very fair (and very wise).

Spending time on 'why' at best just explains the past. Commitment to finding the 'why' is no guarantee of change. Have you ever dealt with a weight problem? The 'whys' are pretty obvious. The benefits of being a healthy weight are obvious. And yet an immense number of our fellow human beings (including me) remain overweight despite knowing our whys.

Committing to change is likely (and maybe 'likely' should be 'guaranteed') to surface the 'whys' as the changer works through the attraction of making unhealthy choices and the resistance to healthy ones. But it's the commitment to change that heals, not finding out 'why'.

I don't believe in "weight problems." We are all precisely the weight we want to be. I've always been relatively fit, but I've gone through patches where I'd put on 5-10 pounds I didn't plan on (I *love* ice cream sundaes). But then I decide to lose it--and that's it. Weight is among the simplest factors, so for it to be a "problem," it means there's a disconnect in either understanding or will: you either don't know what to do or don't have the will to do it.

So in this case, the understanding part is the "why." If you're eating 2,500 calories a day and burning 2,200, you're going to gain weight. If you don't understand that, any progress you make in losing weight will be unsustainable or lucky. Once you understand that, it's simply a matter of correcting the math to achieve the desired result.

If someone wants to lose weight, the very first thing they should do is understand why they weigh more than they want currently. Alternatively, they could learn nothing and follow the latest diet fad and hope for the best. That approach rarely works for the long haul because the person doesn't understand why they're doing what they're doing or how any of it is working or not working.

So to pull this back to an affair--it's easy enough to tell a WS who cheated with a co-worker not to socialize with co-workers of the opposite sex, and perhaps that will prevent a near-term affair, but it's not going to have long-term success--the person may end up having an affair with their dentist instead. They need to understand--really understand--what inside them broke that allowed the infidelity to happen. It's not a matter of simply correcting specific behavior.

To R, both partners need to reduce dysfunctional behavior and increase functional behavior. That's a matter of training oneself to make right choices at decision points, again and again.

Here's an example that I hope illustrates my point. Suppose you work in a group that's mixed WRT relationship status and gender. Suppose a number of the members are young, single, and looking for casual sex. It's one thing to go with the group for drinks after work. It's quite another to decide to stay with the group as they hop from bar to bar looking for excitement. If you're in an exclusive relationship, what do you do? The right choice is pretty easy.

What if you really want to go out with the singles? A wrong choice is to go out with them. One right choice is to look inside and figure out what would keep you from wanting to risk your relationship.

I know that seems like an over-simplification. As life happens, most of us are drawn to certain bad decisions and/or resist good ones. But becoming a good partner requires making right choice after right choice. Again, focusing on why one made (and perhaps continues to make) wrong choices takes energy away from making right ones.

I think behavior helps in the margins. I've written about this before I'm sure: "We're all as faithful as our options." On one level, it's simple: avoid putting yourself in tempting situations and it's easier to avoid temptation.

But everyone's threshold is different. I can speak for myself in that sure, I largely avoid putting myself in *bad* situations, but ultimately the reason I haven't had an affair is far bigger than my behavior--it's my internal fortitude. Put me and my friends in the back room of a strip club and I won't be the one fucking the stripper.

Why is that? Why am I less willing to fuck a stripper than several of my married friends? And why is my wife more willing to sleep around than I am?

Behavior isn't the answer for my reasons and certainly not for my wife either. Lots of married moms on the PTA didn't want to sleep with the AP--and again, you can argue that my wife had more opportunity because she's attractive and AP targeted her (whereas another married mom didn't have affair sex falling into her lap)--but it's bigger than that. My WW's weakness is with herself; not in what she does.

What do you do in IC? If your IC isn't getting you into real feelings - not 'unheard', 'powerless', 'unsafe' - your IC needs to change or you may need to change ICs.

I'm growing increasingly less impressed with my IC. I have a session tomorrow, so we'll see how it goes. I may swap if it doesn't feel productive.

I spent a lot of time on the "why’s".

At the end of the day, my WW cheated because:

1. She wanted to.
2. The opportunity was there.
3. She didn’t care about the consequences.

There are all sorts of other "reasons" but breaking it down to its simplest form, cheaters are weak people. Every person that cheats on their significant other makes lots of conscious choices to cheat.

Looking at my WW’s A’s, she knew exactly what she was doing. That first deleted text message that was "over the line" was the start of it all.

Depression, FOO issues, "fog", alcohol, etc are all justifications for sh!tty behaviour.

Ultimately, we agree that cheaters are "weak," but there's certainly more to explore. The simplest follow up is why are they weak? And the: how do they stop being weak?

My WW seems entirely focused on the second question and as best I can tell she's largely skipping over the why. It troubles me a bit, but I'm just an observer.

Agreed Dr., why our spouses decided unilaterally to cheat on us isn’t nearly as important as modifying behaviour. My WW resisted intensive IC until given an ultimatum. It has definitely helped and I do feel she is a safer partner and places an importance on self validation and establishing firm boundaries, but damn, I wish she had done this without threats to D.

Slight t/j:

Weight is among the simplest factors, so for it to be a "problem," it means there's a disconnect in either understanding or will: you either don't know what to do or don't have the will to do it.

Or you have underlying health issues, or there's some level of emotional or mental trauma around it that you have to work through, or or or a million other reasons that the overweight person may or may not actually have any control over.

T/j over.

So to pull this back to an affair--it's easy enough to tell a WS who cheated with a co-worker not to socialize with co-workers of the opposite sex, and perhaps that will prevent a near-term affair, but it's not going to have long-term success--the person may end up having an affair with their dentist instead. They need to understand--really understand--what inside them broke that allowed the infidelity to happen. It's not a matter of simply correcting specific behavior.

You aren't wrong here. But YOU, the BS, can't make the ws WANT to figure this out or understand it. The ws has to have the desire to do that and no amount of pages of threads for the BS is gonna change things in that regard if the ws doesn't want to figure their shit out. Something about horses and water springs to mind...

How do I forgive her

Forgiveness does not arrive with blaring trumpets and banners IME. I cut ties with my dad a long time ago - he was really mentally and emotionally abusive and I got to a point where I was just done. I struggled for YEARS with the 'I have to forgive him' thought and no matter how I wrapped my head around it I couldn't figure out how to do that. Then one quiet morning 8 years later, I realized I HAD forgiven him. That I no longer felt angst about it and that I understand that he's a broken person, and more importantly that HIS brokenness has nothing to do with me. These days, I am not angry at him - when he does cross my mind, I sincerely hope that he is well and happy in his life.

How does she escape her shame spiral otherwise?

Respectfully, but her "shame spiral" is HER problem to sort out. My xwh did the "shame spiral" thing too, and in my case that was yet one more form of avoidance on his part. In the very early days I would try to help him process that and support him, but thankfully I pretty quickly cottoned on to him manipulating me with the whole 'shame-spiral' bit of nonsense and I just stopped playing along. Something like - Him: I can't talk about this now because I am really having a bad day with my shame. Me: *shrugs* And? You did a really hurtful and shameful thing so maybe shame is an appropriate emotion for you to be feeling. *walks away*

The missing piece of course is her remorse, but I suppose that is entirely on her anyway. She's either going to get there or not, regardless of what I do.

You are right that you can have absolutely no influence on this. Or the other possibility here (one that's very painful to contemplate) is that she just ain't sorry. It took me several months but in my situation, my xwh said he was sorry frequently. What he didn't do was show me he was. So what are your ww's actions showing you?

Slight t/j:

Or you have underlying health issues, or there's some level of emotional or mental trauma around it that you have to work through, or or or a million other reasons that the overweight person may or may not actually have any control over.

T/j over.

While this is obviously off-topic, I think the logic is important. Ellie, I know nothing about you, so if this is a personal sore spot, feel free to not engage with me on it--I won't take it personally.

The fraction of people who truly can't control their weight is so miniscule that it's not worth acknowledging--it's a straw man argument. In the U.S., something like 40-50% of the population is obese and more than 99% of those people are *choosing* to be obese. Quite literally, it's as simple as choosing to consume less calories.

That's not the interesting part though. Your justification for why they're obese is.

Rather than acknowledge the problem, you instead deflect to the sub-1% suffering obscure medical/emotional/health limitations and use them as a shield for the entire group.

That's the same victim-mindset a WS uses to explain away an affair.

One chooses to be obese in the same way one chooses to have an affair--the question that matters is *why*.

(And no, I'm obviously not suggesting choosing to be obese is the same moral evil as an affair, but the framing of your argument is identical and I'm just running with Sisoon's analogy to the logical conclusion. I don't care if someone wants to be obese, though it certainly is a concern for me if it's a friend or loved one.)

You aren't wrong here. But YOU, the BS, can't make the ws WANT to figure this out or understand it. The ws has to have the desire to do that and no amount of pages of threads for the BS is gonna change things in that regard if the ws doesn't want to figure their shit out. Something about horses and water springs to mind...

Agreed 100%. My commentary was on my observation of her. I think her whys are important--Sisoon did not--and my observation was that she hasn't gotten very far in her process.

Forgiveness does not arrive with blaring trumpets and banners IME. I cut ties with my dad a long time ago - he was really mentally and emotionally abusive and I got to a point where I was just done. I struggled for YEARS with the 'I have to forgive him' thought and no matter how I wrapped my head around it I couldn't figure out how to do that. Then one quiet morning 8 years later, I realized I HAD forgiven him. That I no longer felt angst about it and that I understand that he's a broken person, and more importantly that HIS brokenness has nothing to do with me. These days, I am not angry at him - when he does cross my mind, I sincerely hope that he is well and happy in his life.

I'm sorry you had to go through that with your father--that's hard.

My point on this was that it's hard for me to see the path to forgiveness through understanding--which would be my traditional approach. I don't think I'll ever square my WW's actions during the affair--I see some of them as objectively wrong and cruel. I'm exploring the idea of other paths--the idea essentially being more in line with what others have said: I don't have to forgive her through that traditional path.

Respectfully, but her "shame spiral" is HER problem to sort out. My xwh did the "shame spiral" thing too, and in my case that was yet one more form of avoidance on his part. In the very early days I would try to help him process that and support him, but thankfully I pretty quickly cottoned on to him manipulating me with the whole 'shame-spiral' bit of nonsense and I just stopped playing along. Something like - Him: I can't talk about this now because I am really having a bad day with my shame. Me: *shrugs* And? You did a really hurtful and shameful thing so maybe shame is an appropriate emotion for you to be feeling. *walks away*

That's totally fair--and it was certainly my approach through most of the post-DDay time. I've found it unhelpful and unproductive. Her shame is useless for our relationship at this point.

You are right that you can have absolutely no influence on this. Or the other possibility here (one that's very painful to contemplate) is that she just ain't sorry. It took me several months but in my situation, my xwh said he was sorry frequently. What he didn't do was show me he was. So what are your ww's actions showing you?

Well that's the trick. She's now behaving in very loving ways--leading with kindness across the board. That, combined with her lack of insensitive moments, has led me to think she may have turned a corner. That's an illusion that can quickly be dispelled though. So we'll see.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 1:17 PM, Friday, September 9th]

Forgiveness is not a pre requisite for R. But, if at some point you can’t get to at least acceptance, that might pose a problem.

Hi Doc

Thought I’d chime in here after reading yesterday’s posts. It was an interesting series of discussions but this little statement by you is what piqued my interest the most:

But after months of examination, I arrived at the conclusion that it's not a choice I have control over--if from a moral perspective her act was unforgivable in my eyes, it's not within my ability to forgive her without redefining who I am.

That is quite insightful. I’ve spent a few times over the years trying to convince a unfortunate newly minted BS that they might have said the words I FORGIVE but in fact there is no way that it was true at that moment.

You see, after reading here for 5 years and thru many life experiences myself, I firmly am of the belief that the act of forgiving, truly forgiving, is perhaps an involuntary response.

As Ellie wrote, she couldn’t forgive her husband until one day, she realized she had. It was not something she could force herself to do. The body knows. The mind does it all on its own. The person cannot control if it happens or not. It either just does, over time, or it doesn’t.

That’s why I shake my head when someone shows up here, newly destroyed by infidelity, and says "I’ve already told her, or him, that I’ve forgiven them". It’s just not true in my opinion. It’s not really your choice. Of course you can choose to say the words. But that does not make it true.

I’ve not read the book "the body keeps score" but the title makes sense to me and I’m hoping the author discusses this phenomenon. You might want to give it a read.

But I also wanted to mention this before I finish. I have written here often that I believe there is a difference between forgiving the person vs forgiving the act. I think it’s possible to forgive the person long before or even if you can never forgive the act.

Forgiving the person to me, has to do if the person is no longer who he or she was when they performed the acts of infidelity. If I can see that they have done the work, been able to dig deep down, and actually in effect, change their stripes to truly become someone who is no longer capable of doing the type of damage they did to hurt you in the past, then I believe it’s possible for me to forgive them, the person they are now, without forgiving the act they callously performed that hurt me so.

To me this is something that takes years of introspection by a WS to achieve. The past few days of good behavior aside, your wife has not come close yet to showing she can do that work. Like you, I’m hopeful. And she has to find that desire within her to change. In my opinion she still is far too inward focused to even begin that journey. But if and when she does, and consistently becomes who you need to be a faithful supportive and yes, safe partner to you, then someday you may find that you have forgiven her, without forgiving what damaged you by her betrayal years before.

I do agree that you can R without forgiving at all. But being able to forgive at least the person makes The chance of R being successful a lot stronger.

It’s a long journey to get there. I think you have the fortitude to make it happen. I’m not sure your wife does though. We will see.

Thanks for listening.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 2:07 PM, Wednesday, September 7th]

Forgiveness is not a pre requisite for R. But, if at some point you can’t get to at least acceptance, that might pose a problem.

Agreed, Dude. I think that's exactly what I'm exploring now: acceptance.