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ST,since she's going under "forced" conditions,and has already said she won't get anything from it.

Genuine question, I haven’t read this anywhere in the thread. I have read that his suggestion dovetailed what her IC has said and she does want to see if she can get to the root of the issue. The thread is long and I am sincerely wondering if I missed something.

HO, I just wanted to state I think you have made so many valuable points on this thread. I agree with most, but obviously not all. But the thought you have put into it has been remarkable

He is is choosing to sleep separately in order not to be sex bombed,

create more tension around the matter that they can’t walk back, and prevent further damage to himself and the marriage he is trying to save

.

I think in your last post you were spot on with the second quote, but off the mark on the first. I think AN realizes that sleeping together right now would not result in love bombing, but rather a return to the bland sex, if they even would have that. She just still isn’t ready to be a giving enthusiastic partner. I think he is smart enough to know that her lying there and going through the motions resulting in more bland sex, would as you said result in more damage to himself and the marriage. Especially as he knows what kind of sexual partner she has the capacity to be. Until they start their sex therapy they should refrain from sex. It would just result in her feeling bad about herself, and him getting angry. I happen to think that if she did love bomb him, it would probably be a good thing

As I mentioned the coddling, I want to make sure I was understood, as I probably didn’t state it very well. The post came at the time where the big debate was about the "power of the Dom" and I felt she just wasn’t being held accountable. Especially as it pertained to the acts of humiliation that she subjected AN to. Taking the pictures of him that she sent to the AP to humiliate him even without his knowledge. Withholding sex under the orders of her AP. Probably both of them taking liberties such as sneaking around in their close presence, and of course all of the sex acts she wouldn’t do for him, yet eagerly did for her AP. This whole power of the Dom stuff just doesn’t fly for me. It might have been her reason, but it wasn’t done under duress. And now AN has stated she didn’t even respect the AP. WTF? It all obscures the real reason. She wanted hot monkey sex, but was afraid to open up to AN and get to do it with him.

I think what bothers me the most here is still the humiliation factor. I get how affairs happen. I was tempted plenty of times. I had married women at conventions calling me in my room at 1A to come to theirs. I really wanted to go, but I didn’t. But if I did, it really wouldn’t have been about my EX. If I did however, then after I got done what I wanted were to call my wife from her bed, or had her go to dinner with this woman, or had my wife give me oral sex right after I was with her, it’s no longer about me and my wants. It’s about me having absolutely no moral compass. Then to get out of it, I insist everything was out of my control. I wouldn’t expect people to buy that I was unduly influenced by her. I could have said no at any point. I would have never done it as though even though I was a scumbag for cheating, I had respect for my EX and she didn’t deserve it. For his wife to say she did all this because she respected him blows my mind. You just don’t humiliate people you love.

Anyway, I think AN is on a good path for himself. I hope she can get her shit together and find some sort of compromise. She doesn’t have to be having the porn sex she was, but she shouldn’t subject AN to a lifetime of her lying on her back in the dark counting the seconds until he finishes

[This message edited by waitedwaytoolong at 9:19 PM, Friday, March 24th]

Waited too long,

I can’t argue with what you said but the sex bombing comment I made might not be what he is thinking but he is saving himself from it.

Also, I have lived this for the past six years so I haven’t had to put a lot of thought into anything other than trying to say it in a way that might make sense to Anyone who hasn’t.

I can’t claim I understand the sex issues, any of them really. Other than to believe something caused all this an it’s is on his wife to figure it out with much needed professional help.

But I agree AN’s approach is sound of his goal is to reconcile his marriage or have a healthy parting. If it’s not, then he could simply skip all the steps and tell her good luck I hope you figure it out. His point they are going to coparenting and be in each others lives is also a valid point.

I agree, don’t think he is wasting time either if he needs this time too to feel certain of his steps.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:38 PM, Friday, March 24th]

I have read that his suggestion dovetailed what her IC has said and she does want to see if she can get to the root of the issue.

Her IC has been suggesting it for awhile,and she said no. It wasn't until her husband suggested it,and she's sleeping in the caravan,that she agreed to go. It wasn't until she realized he wasn't going to go along with the status quo any longer. And,her response to going was basically, "fine, but don't expect me to become a whore." That doesn't sound like she plans on getting much out of it. Her husband has not asked her to be a whore. He's asking for her to be more adventurous with him..so her saying that sounds to me,as if she's simply complying. Which isn't the same as "doing the work."

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:45 PM, Friday, March 24th]

After reading OP update of course he is saying WTF. Lol what human wouldn’t think that! It’s just more of the same excuses being used as reasons for her actions.

People lie easier than they tell the truth. The why’s are all BS and that’s why OP is so confused. Let me tell you one thing you can trust. Believe how they treat you and not the words that they say.

So WW respects her husband so much that she finds another guy and screws him. Becomes a sex goddess for OM. Does all the normal things with him and more. She is able to do this without any Counseling? I mean I thought she needed Counseling before she could do this with another man? Because she sure as hell won’t do it with her husband! Oh I forgot she does it with OM because she doesn’t respect him. Boy she sure taught the OM a lesson.

So back to her BH the man she "Respects " she lets him know much she respects him. Tells him that WW will not do those acts for him… because she respects him to much and won’t be degraded like that. For her to treat him like that she would need counseling! Why would she need counseling to do this with her husband?

Apparently that’s BS because she was doing that without counseling for OM. There’s something else going on here. Why does she not desire her husband in that way? We know she didn’t need counseling to do it with OM. You can believe in a persons actions not their words.

She certainly doesn’t respect her husband. Her actions prove that. She doesn’t desire him like a wife should. And if I were him I would like to know why. Do I smell? Have you never been attracted to me? Is my body gross to you? OM body isn’t gross to you what is wrong with mine? Am I a meal ticket? There’s an actual "Why" on this but I doubt OP will ever know why he doesn’t deserve this from her.

I would never ever condone abuse in a marriage. Going and doing this to your spouse is abuse. It’s easier to see when a man is hitting a woman to tell them to run. She abused him and many want to encourage him to continue the abuse. Maybe after many years of counseling she will allow a nightlight on.

Anyone that thinks she is doing this because she "Respects" her husband…I just don’t know what to say to you. It’s justifying her continued crappy behavior towards her husband.

Rant is over. Always trust their behavior and never their words. If this is considered her respecting OP I just don’t know what to say to you. He has to live with this so it’s his choice to make. But l would want to know why she is repulsed by me. That’s specifically what her actions show.Its clearly not because she has so much respect. This is the opposite of respect.

The post came at the time where the big debate was about the "power of the Dom" and I felt she just wasn’t being held accountable. Especially as it pertained to the acts of humiliation that she subjected AN to. Taking the pictures of him that she sent to the AP to humiliate him even without his knowledge. Withholding sex under the orders of her AP. Probably both of them taking liberties such as sneaking around in their close presence, and of course all of the sex acts she wouldn’t do for him, yet eagerly did for her AP. This whole power of the Dom stuff just doesn’t fly for me. It might have been her reason, but it wasn’t done under duress. And now AN has stated she didn’t even respect the AP. WTF?

WWTL, this is a long thread. There was a post above, I forget who it was, to the effect that in a Dom/Sub dynamic, it is the sub who holds the power, not the dom. The dom is a tool used by the sub to plumb depths and explore the edges of envelopes. At all times, the sub holds the Golden Snitch, the safe word. The power of "stop".

That dovetails with what Mrs. AN said in her manifesto about how the stuff she did in her A was for her, not for the AP.

Which begs the question I raised previously: since we know she humiliated him and cuckolded him on purpose, for her, what does that ultimately tell us about what sorts of feelings she harbors in her heart for Mr. AN? Affairs are usually about escapism mixed with compartmentalization mixed with denial and even elements of anesthesia. You don't often see affairs where the WW intentionally engages in acts of affirmative sex-related cruelty to the BH. That's deep.

That coupled with the grudging agreement to see a sex therapist, coupled with the snorted "but I won't become a whore", that is part of the reason I keep coming back to the conclusion that Mr. AN is driving down a dead end here. Two years out, zero progress, and at this stage only grudging agreement to even engage facially in a process that might yield some progress, even that with stark preconditions.

Thank you hellfire.

. The actions you outline are there I see them now that you have pointed them out. And you are right we can interpret them as she doesn’t want to do work, she isn’t remorseful, she wants him to stay in the status quo. All are believable and viable possibilities.

I also feel like it could be interpreted as they had been fighting over the issue and having transactional conversations surrounding it when he suggested it. And that this has been a hot button their entire marriage and likely both of their tempers were up.

It’s possible she isn’t doing this to him, it’s more she fears she can’t change and if she opens the door to it then he is going to have new expectations that she feels inadequate to meet.

I read the same factual information, and I can see how it could be interpreted a number of ways. I don’t know if she is sexually gatekeeping, I only know I can’t understand a motive a healthy woman who enjoys her sexuality would just purposefully not enjoy it to punish him for something. Anything is possible but it’s my belief that there is a problem here that she is has been too fearful and shame filled to face it.

Change is scary , it’s hard work, you get exhausted, and sometimes you blow a gasket. It’s a human thing to do. The reality is if it weren’t for the sex inequity, this couple would look like a normal reconciliation with the run of the mill bumps in the road.

Putting an ultimatum on sex quotas or surrounding therapy are apples and oranges.

An ultimatum surrounding sex therapy says we have a major obstacle and I need to see that you are willing to solve it. We can’t continue this marriage in a mutually compatible way unless you take some steps towards me on this.

An ultimatum involving blow jobs or any other sex act is marital coercion. Doesn’t matter under what circumstances. No therapist would suggest it is healthy for the ww to make it up to him with sexual favors because the reality is there is no making it up to him. There isn’t any justice for what happened.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:06 PM, Friday, March 24th]

And that this has been a hot button their entire marriage and likely both of their tempers were up.

HO, maybe I missed something in Mr. AN's posts, but I didn't think that the stunted sex repertoire had been a hot button in their marriage prior to Dday. Rather, Mr. AN had just sort of quietly resigned himself to it, and didn't push Mrs. AN for more.

BFTG.

Full disclosure- I do not have beyond a basic understanding of the dom/sub dynamic. Everything you said I am taking at face value.

I just wanted to add a thought.

This isn’t just two people having a BDSM relationship, this is also two people who are having an affair. Which means you have two psychological issues happening at once.

Let me introduce a THEORY to what you are saying.

First, by the time the ws is sleeping with another person, the BS has already been minimized and set to the side already. It’s just the brutal truth of any affair.

I believe AN’s wife was likely limerant with the AP and wanted to win him. I certainly did in my affair.

She basically valued the AP more in the affair. Not because he is better, not because of anything other than she likely wanted to keep the thing she is addicted to.

It was easy to put that under she followed her orders.

This stuff you are conjecturing likely came down to keeping her addiction. We know people will go to great lengths to do that.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:27 PM, Friday, March 24th]

HO, maybe I missed something in Mr. AN's posts, but I didn't think that the stunted sex repertoire had been a hot button in their marriage prior to Dday. Rather, Mr. AN had just sort of quietly resigned himself to it, and didn't push Mrs. AN for more.

If not the entire marriage you can bet your ass for the last 3 years.

But for the record, hot buttons are usually the thing a couple stops talking about because it always causes a huge fight. At some point everyone resigns themselves and it lives just below the surface their whole marriage. I could name at least 3 in my own that we haven’t spoke. About in years but if one of us try we would be pretty heated quickly.

As I mentioned the coddling, I want to make sure I was understood, as I probably didn’t state it very well. The post came at the time where the big debate was about the "power of the Dom"

Hey, I forgot to say I didn’t even associate you with the coddling comment, there was an onslaught of people saying it yesterday. Perhaps it was under the same context as you and I just didn’t get it. I just knew no coddling was happening.

I am going to push back on this a bit. All relationships are as authentic as the people in them. But I don’t think the Pre-affair marriage is a lie just because she hadn’t come to terms with her sexuality. It’s not a betrayal in other words.

Not saying she was betraying him, with you on that, just saying that what they had even before the A was artificial and inauthentic, that who he was married to is not who she actually is. Like finding out your spouse is actually a deep plant Russian spy. The difference was big enough that it leaked into real life in the most destructive manner possible.

But here’s the deal, if she had just kept it stored away and lived the facade in the exterior, that’s its own measure of tragedy too. Brings to mind "lives of quiet desperation". Think of a gay person staying in the closet their whole life.

Here we are, with the damage done. But one thing I’ve seen here too many times to count, is the knack for an affair to blowtorch all of the bullshit off the scaffolding, to incinerate the facade. This gives an opportunity for openness most likely never to be realized otherwise. What is to be done with the moment?

Most WS reflexively try to cram the genie back in the bottle, to nail back up that facade and Never Speak Of It Again. That would be a waste. There are other paths from this moment.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 12:12 AM, Saturday, March 25th]

Spaceghost, although your post won’t be popular, i think you pretty much distilled what has happened here. She puts forth the reasoning that she did what the AP wanted with him because she respected her husband so much, and as you said all without intense amount of therapy, and humiliated her husband because she respects him so much. Doesn’t make much sense to me either.

The thing is this whole thing went on for frigging year and a half. She had plenty of time to pull her head out of her ass. Again, the sex acts are one thing. I don’t get it, but I guess she wanted to experiment and didn’t want to with AN. But none of her benefactors here has give me a solid reason why she would expand the sexual experimentation to humiliating AN aside from the "powerful Dom"theory. A sexual affair under some circumstances can be forgiven. Humiliating your spouse shouldn’t

Hey, I forgot to say I didn’t even associate you with the coddling comment, there was an onslaught of people saying it yesterday. Perhaps it was under the same context as you and I just didn’t get it. I just knew no coddling was happening.

I did make the comment and stand by what I said. I just wanted to explain the context. I still disagree she isn’t getting coddled by some, but disagreements are healthy and though I disagree, I recognize and value your reasoning about why you don’t agree with me. Or I don’t with you😀

AN,

You wrote,

Basically - WW admits that she has always struggled to be the "good girl" that society(?) required of her. She told me she was ashamed that when she was younger, she struggle(d/s) with strong sexual urges, desires and fantasies, which she "knew" were not what she was "supposed" to be feeling, and she was embarrassed that they would arrive unbidden to her, and she would feel ashamed that her body responded to those imaginations and fantasies.

So... the pushed them down... tried to box them up. Good girls don't and all that crap. She said that with AP she could do things with him coz she "didn't have to face someone respected and cared for deeply the next day". She could not reconcile that other part of herself in the context of what she imagines a good wife and mother should be. So I was apparently denied precisely *because* she respected me, and felt she would not be able to endure the (imagined) judgement she would face by giving into her "deviancy". I mean WTH?

My W reluctantly told me one time that she became very horny looking at cartoons of oral sex which were in magazines her parents used to get. On very rare occasions she enjoyed oral sex with me. Mostly she suppressed her sexual desire with me to a controllable level, she squirted a few times with me but that quickly disappeared.

I think my W thought of OM1 at least at first as an equal in the sense that they both made the same money and did the same kind of work whereas I started making good money when OM1 happened. I became in her mind too good to have sex with or perhaps her withholding sex was a way to balance our relationship.

There is a sense of having been lied to for years/decades as I was given explanations which I accepted at the time and which she never on her own came clean about. I don't know how to recover the years of oral sex both giving and receiving which did not happen it's a bit like finding out your accountant has embezzled a mountain of money over the decades.

A sexual affair under some circumstances can be forgiven. Humiliating your spouse shouldn’t

For all guys? If he does forgive, is that unforgivable and he should be ostracized for breaking the bro code? Failed somehow? Seems implied.

For all guys? If he does forgive, is that unforgivable and he should be ostracized for breaking the bro code? Failed somehow? Seems implied.

Women too. Not gender exclusive.

I probably should have been more clear. Obviously there are degrees of humiliation. There are probably thousands of times in a marriage you may be embarrassed or someway humiliated.

This is an infidelity forum. There are a million stories of cheating. It’s all over the place. I even get some of it. Your husband is always working, and the personal trainer is there for you. Your wife doesn’t ever get out of her sweats, but your secretary dresses for you. I don’t condone it, but I get it.

What I just don’t get is the neighbors instead of sneaking around, insist on getting into the closet to screw while their spouses are tending the kids. Or when either spouse feels the needs to have their BS meet the AP as they really could be fast friends. This is not done for themselves, it’s done to fu*k over their BS whether the believe it or not.

It’s this humiliation I’m talking about and that includes what AN’s WS did.

It doesn’t break everyone’s code, but it breaks mine

The whole not respecting AP, not caring about him is so much bullshit.

She still will not tell the truth.

Why do I say that's a lie?

Bc she withheld sex from you while in the A so as to stay loyal to AP. So she wants to stay loyal to someone that she has no respect for?

Nope. No way that's true.

You can't reconcile with a WS that won't tell the truth about the A.

The only code that is Broken is the one to himself. All the focus is on fixing his poor victim wife and all her issues. Once she is healthy all will be good.

SpaceGhost0007... Sir, I feel the exact same way you do.

Maybe I don't know the meaning of respect. Guess I have been on this screwed up planet too long.

I was taught to respect my elders; respect my parents; respect my teachers; in the military I had to respect my superiors or else; show respect to my bosses if I wanted to stay employed, etc.

What she is doing to her husband is the direct opposite of respect in my opinion. She went out of her way to degrade him. How the hell is that respect?

This seems to have become convoluted so much that I am getting a headache.

Guess I will give this thread a rest for a few days.