SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This morning I went back and reread AN's original post to see if something would stand out to me. Lo, and behold, something did.

The fact that she refers to herself as "She" did thus and such, etc. When she will not even refer to herself in the first person as an actor in the adultery how in the world can she ever become remorseful. It wasn't Mrs. AN that did those dirty, disgusting, vile things, but "She" (an unknown third person) did all those things.

By separating herself from the affair in this manner she now has no accountability for her actions in her own mind.

No Accountability = No Remorse.

Hi AN,

I just wanted to chime in on the sex therapy issue.

The sex therapy is for the both of you. Not just her.

You don’t send her to another therapist to fix her.

You both go together as a couple. You work on this together. As a couple.

You are working together to build a stronger marriage together.

Just want to make sure that is clear.

Sending her to more therapy isn’t going to make her come home one day and rip her clothes off.

Referring to herself as she could be something her IC suggested. It's possible along with many other possible explanations.

Actually – if she had no remorse or didn’t see the infidelity as wrong or bad, she wouldn’t have issue with speaking about it in the first tense.
I do agree though that using the third tense indicates she hasn’t fully grasped and therefore accepted her culpability, but to me it indicates that she has the potential to get there. Third tense is definitely an indicator of guilt IMHO, and you don’t feel guilty for things you don’t think are wrong.

This issue was addressed in the first pages and has a split understanding. One poster (whom I would dearly like to have a beer with and hear of his experiences) shared how Ted Bundy used the third tense to describe his crimes. I think there is an immense difference in what Bundy did and what a cheating spouse does, but moral values are relative. For some stealing money doesn’t bother them, for some simply short-changing someone can cause moral trauma.

But… this goes back to why I personally don’t think this thread is really helpful. What AN wife does or can do or did… isn’t really the issue. What AN wants, can do and does is the issue. Like I said in my first post: he doesn’t have to be where he is if he doesn’t want to.

But… this goes back to why I personally don’t think this thread is really helpful. What AN wife does or can do or did… isn’t really the issue. What AN wants, can do and does is the issue.

I respectfully disagree. Dont you think AN should know what AN wife does or can do or did... to understand whys and hows of her affair. Don't you think this will help him in his decision making regardless of what he decides to do? If he had already made up his mind on divorcing her then whats and whys of her affair won't matter to him at all. We wouldn't be having such a long thread. Obviously, most of our attempts to try answer those whys and hows here are mere speculations and could be completely false. So, he can take what it useful for him and leave the rest.

Mostly lurking here, but the third person referral certainly seems like she is working extra hard to distance herself from the truly harmful nature of what she chose to do. Also, it seems like she is fundamentally a control freak (not sure there's a nicer way to say that. Autocrat?). This could be tied to her religious nature (I'm also religious, so no criticism there) which dictates character traits that she clearly didn't present while in her A. The very fact that she told the OP that he "won" seems like she wants to bestow upon herself the authority to determine the outcome of their reconciliation. Not to mention how she allowed herself to be a sub in the dom/sub dynamic. Seems like she will never demonstrate remorse and the basic requirement to let go of the outcome as long as she demonstrates this kind of controlling attitude.

...a bunch of voices are encouraging Mr. AN from the sidelines to give her a chance.

I haven't seen that.

I have seen testimony by fWWs about their own state of mind when they were in their As. I've seen suggestions that AN's W may be damaged. I've seen statements that can be read to mean that AN could treat his WS with respect. But pretty much all of those types of statements included comments that D is a potential resolution that might be best for AN.

That's how I read this thread. I'd like some citations of posts that encourage AN to 'give his W a chance' - poster, date, and time will be sufficient, although page number would be a nice addition to the minimum.

*****

To some BSes, R seems impossible. They chose D, sometimes after false R, and no one is arguing that they made the wrong choice for themselves; however, that is not license to ignore the fact that R does occur when both partners do the work.

Others think the A is completely about the WS. I take absolutely no responsibility for my W's A. Disrespect? Sure - but that's her inability to see me as I am; I don't doubt that I've earned respect as a man and as a husband. And that's another valid way to experience one's WS's A(s).

There IS a lack of balance here, though. No one who sees R as possible argues that R is the only way out of infidelity. OTOH, we see statements by people who don't understand R that D is the only way out.

Fortunately, AN has considered his options and made his own decisions.

Why not congratulate him, and wish him well?

Whatever happens, that fact that AN is making his own decisions is a virtual guarantee that he'll heal. I don't know if he'll R or D, but I'm confident his healing will go pretty well. I'm not saying it will be easy, but IMO, healing is easier when one makes one's own decisions based on what one wants.

*****

Dont you think AN should know what AN wife does or can do or did... to understand whys and hows of her affair. Don't you think this will help him in his decision making regardless of what he decides to do?

No, I don't.

I think the BS's best bet by far is to start their thinking about 'D vs R' by figuring out what they want. As you saty, if they want D, they can go straight to preparing to D.

If they want R, however, they have other problems to solve - for example, they have to decide if their WS is a good enough candidate for R. But that's irrelevant unless the BS wants R.

Healing goes much more smoothly and quickly if the BS knows themself. If one wants one thing but goes for something else, one sets themself up for significant difficulties.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 5:10 PM, Thursday, March 23rd]

I agree with 1994 about the way she is distancing herself from her actions. So, I guess I disagree with Bigger on this point.

Also, the fact that she and her AP used their middle names to take on new personas in the affair. Can't forget about that. They seem to be like actors trying on roles in a play. It is not them personally acting... it is the role they are playing. Therefore, they are not responsible on a personal level for what they are doing, because they are acting.

1994... I think it goes further than just being controlling. She showed an enormous amount of Entitlement when she said "You Won". Like she is the most precious prize on the top shelf that only a few can reach. If that happened to me I am sure my head would begin spinning like the girl in the "Exorcist" movie. Cheaters feel entitled, otherwise they would not cheat. They feel entitled to have their fun and damn be the consequences. However, the amount of entitlement shown in those two words is really mind boggling (at least to me).

I've not suggested divorce ever in this thread.

In fact I don't think I've suggested divorce here in years.

First, I have no issue with anyone suggesting divorce. I have suggested it as an option several times in this thread. I agree this is untenable in its current state and said it enough times I shouldn’t have to add a disclaimer to every post.

There absolutely is a camp that always shows up in BH threads only from the position of they know divorce is the only outcome. The ws will never improve, the ws is not worthy. Nothing can move forward because the situation is too awful. He will never find happiness married to her.

And when people suggest there are all sorts of strategies that can be used, then they are coddling and protecting the ws.

The reality is none of us know what can happen. I think of couples like Hallmack and Iamtrash, and recently she contacted me and said they had made it through and life is good for them. Some of the hateful things that flew through here during thier saga was unbelievable. Worse than this thread by a lot. Yet, even that toxic situation became something different.

Life is not static, we all change and grow all the time. Well, most of us.

I don’t know if AN should continue this or not, or if his ws is remorseful, or if she had this diabolical plan. Or if she gate keeps sex or if there is real repression here. I only know this man has reached the end of his rope and he came here to broaden his view.

Imagine a world where we all say the same thing. We all say "yeah it will be fine, keep going" or we all say "divorce her, she will never be redeemable" well that would be dangerous. We can’t see inside their home or hearts. How do we know this should end or continue? We don’t. We know not even a thumbnail of the full picture.

I have never said "this is how your ws is". I have only said these things could be true but so could these be over here.

All we can share is our own experience, to illustrate what is possible. In that way we are a think tank. I am getting a lot of hate, and I think it’s because this is what some resort to when they have no valid argument against what I am saying. They want me to shut up.

To throw a red herring that I am in this thread to coddle the ws, rather than help the bs. Yet finding not one single quote where I have done that. I think some of you need better arguments than that. I would fully leave you in your lane, but some of you refuse to leave me in mine. Perhaps I trigger you in some way, but some of you trigger the heck out of me.

With all that said, I am done with the back and forth. I hope AN heals, no matter how that looks but I am not going to debate with people on whether my input is a s valid as yours.

I have conceded over and over that any of your constructive input is valid. I just feel the same as walkingonegshellz, the goading some of you do I am not sure how you are aware of how it sounds.

But you do you, cause I am going to do me.I trust AN knows far better than any of us and will know what to take to heart.

Edited to add- I quoted you goldenR but this post really wasn’t directed at you, it was far more general than that. I am not saying you have done anything especially egregious.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:39 PM, Thursday, March 23rd]

Sending her to more therapy isn’t going to make her come home one day and rip her clothes off.

I suggested it because it helped me.

After my h’s 18 month affair that occurred mostly in our home, I was rendered uninterested in having physical intimacy and could not imagine changing that in the future.

There was a lot of barrier breaking I didn’t even know was there. A lot of residual issues rolled up input one big bucket of trauma.

The thing I find fascinating is nearly every ws I spoke to had sexual abuse in their history. And before you all gang up on me and say that sexual abuse doesn’t cause cheating - I completely agree.

It can cause distorted views on sex. I am not dismissing issues such frigidness, gatekeeping are often completely unrelated and the person may not have sexual abuse involved at all. It could be purely the religious or pious upbringing.

But in the processing of sexual trauma, a lot gets wound up in it. Think of it as a tornado adding debris as it goes along.

That’s what sex therapy starts to unwind. Putting away a lot of debris you didn’t realize you picked up. I (unconsciously) had a lot of parallels between my husbands affair and my past sexual abuse. His cheating made me see him in the same sinister light as my abuser so much so the two became intermingled.

I agree it may become useful to AN in processing his own passivity in this issue before, and the damage picked up from the affair.

I definitely think it will help her if she wants to be helped. I rarely have mind movies or barriers up surround sex anymore. I was not frigid prior, but I can see how these techniques might be effective for anyone.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:26 PM, Thursday, March 23rd]

I’m not saying her own therapy on this issue would not help.

What I am saying is that they need a counselor who specializes in sex therapy for the both of them together.

She can only be in so much therapy.

In fact she said to him her IC was also pressuring her.

She may have that covered.

They have a hard time stating their needs and opening up to each other.

I’ve never personally done sex therapy I was always actually naturally aggressive.

But there is one whose podcast I like and it actually sounds fun.

I think they need help together not apart. I’ve also read how it works in regards to other trauma.

They will give them little suggestions to help them build intimacy over time.

And that’s what this whole thread is really about intimacy.

Right now there is shared intimacy that belongs to another man.

That doesn’t sit well with AN. And it shouldn’t.

He loves her. She is his wife the intimacy should be with him.

She needs to still be working to have a relationship that’s new and loving for both of them.

Not just get back to normal. She destroyed that.

Not to threadjack but Hikingout I really appreciate your posts, here and other places. Balanced, nuanced and always with an empathetic eye toward the OP. I would have pm'd this but you've reached your pm limit. :)

AN - you've gotten a lot of good advice. Take what you need and leave the rest.

I completely agree, confused.
I mostly agree with everything you say.

And you are right sex therapy can become fun. I would t say it’s that way in the beginning but as things become unwound, it gets better.

That is maybe the only reason I think maybe she starts it and he joins at some point. But the therapist will know what to do about that.

Her issues are deep and until there is movement they are not going to get to the better part of sex therapy. I maybe just don’t want him to be dragged though the part where she needs to do her own unwinding. Because if she can’t, there is no reason for them to go as a couple. I hope that makes sense.

It’s why I think people should do a lot of IC before they go to MC. The improvement in the ws has to happen before you can make any leeway as a couple.

Perhaps some in the thread are forgetting the fact that AspectNorth, AN, is and has been in reconciliation for some time but he is stuck on 2 issues. This is not JFO, he has been working to R but can't get past 1) a feeling of not being included in the initial work in R due to his WW processing so much with her IC and 2) the sex she provided posom, how she treated AN during the A with regard to sex and her limitations regarding sex post A.

I agree with AN's thread title because every element of the sexual part of the affair would be hard to get over for me. D would have to be a very real option regardless of any other factors in such a situation. So why in the world would anyone here give AN encouragement for him to continue R or to look for ways to explain his WW's very hurtful infidelity?

Here's my answer:

He came here for advice and encouragement in the context of his initial decision to try R many months ago. He wants to R, he just isn't sure he can do it. He has a long marriage to her, kids and he loves her. On top of this, his WW has been, in AN's own words:

"WW has been a "model wayward". Working to reconnect with me, becoming accountable, being forthcoming with her whereabouts at all times, passwords to phones/email/etc and continuing with IC, and initiating MC when I (thought) I was ready, even offering multiple times to submit to a poly if I needed to know anything else. (I don't - I'm satisfied that I know everything I want to know and more!), as well as disclosing her A to parents and our teenage children etc. She knows she has wounded me and our family deeply and takes full ownership of everything. Basically, she is more than doing the work."

So attempts to help him get over his two sticking points are completely valid. Including trying to help him work with his wife despite her betrayal. That doesn't mean AN shouldn't hear the D option rationale. He should. But saying people are supporting the WW in some way is missing the context here. She has already earned AN's effort and desire to R. It may be failing but she apparently earned that months ago despite what any of us may be feeling about her. So people here trying to help AN work through that toward R aren't supporting her, they are supporting AN's original desire to try R.

"You Won". Like she is the most precious prize on the top shelf that only a few can reach. If that happened to me I am sure my head would begin spinning like the girl in the "Exorcist" movie. Cheaters feel entitled, otherwise they would not cheat. They feel entitled to have their fun and damn be the consequences. However, the amount of entitlement shown in those two words is really mind boggling (at least to me).

I in no way disagree with this but she said this three years ago. At the point of disclosure.

Maybe it has some lasting meaning that she has never moved from. But in terms of shit I know gets said all the time to BS’s in the aftermath of dday, I see this as standard ws fare. Most of us are still clueless assholes in the aftermath of cheating. Heck, I was trying to consciously not be one and some of what dropped out of my mouth remain amongst my greatest regrets.

The deeper issue I feel AN was stating this as a part of why he felt the MC was her co-conspirator. I agree with his assessment and would have fired that MC and gotten a neutral one altogether. I am not sure if he is from a different country but in America that is seen as conflict of interest. ( isn’t he from Australia?)My IC would not see my h and I as a couple. I liked her and wanted her to.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:03 PM, Thursday, March 23rd]

Mostly lurking here, but the third person referral certainly seems like she is working extra hard to distance herself from the truly harmful nature of what she chose to do. Also, it seems like she is fundamentally a control freak (not sure there's a nicer way to say that. Autocrat?). This could be tied to her religious nature (I'm also religious, so no criticism there) which dictates character traits that she clearly didn't present while in her A. The very fact that she told the OP that he "won" seems like she wants to bestow upon herself the authority to determine the outcome of their reconciliation. Not to mention how she allowed herself to be a sub in the dom/sub dynamic. Seems like she will never demonstrate remorse and the basic requirement to let go of the outcome as long as she demonstrates this kind of controlling attitude.

This.

There IS a lack of balance here, though. No one who sees R as possible argues that R is the only way out of infidelity. OTOH, we see statements by people who don't understand R that D is the only way out.

There absolutely is a camp that always shows up in BH threads only from the position of they know divorce is the only outcome. The ws will never improve, the ws is not worthy. Nothing can move forward because the situation is too awful. He will never find happiness married to her.

Agree. And I shall leave it at that to avoid generalizing.

Mostly lurking here, but the third person referral certainly seems like she is working extra hard to distance herself from the truly harmful nature of what she chose to do. Also, it seems like she is fundamentally a control freak (not sure there's a nicer way to say that. Autocrat?). This could be tied to her religious nature (I'm also religious, so no criticism there) which dictates character traits that she clearly didn't present while in her A. The very fact that she told the OP that he "won" seems like she wants to bestow upon herself the authority to determine the outcome of their reconciliation. Not to mention how she allowed herself to be a sub in the dom/sub dynamic. Seems like she will never demonstrate remorse and the basic requirement to let go of the outcome as long as she demonstrates this kind of controlling attitude.

This.

I see the need to control as fundamentally about fear. She's not ready to take the leap of letting go of the outcome, and it doesn't seem like she's really owned what she did. On an intellectual level, yes, she admits it, but deeper than that? Fear is running her show and keeping her from meaningful recovery, IMO.

I am not feeling like I am in a place to give advice. If you see my other posts you’ll see my state of Affairs (no pun intended) is not going well.

But, wanted to say I think if the sex piece is the biggest problem that seems to merit giving it a chance. As mentioned this would be best done with a sex therapist. I am pretty sure everyone is well aware that right now finding therapists of all kinds is exceptionally difficult. I’m a psychiatrist and as a result I have worked with many couples on their sex lives. Major sex hangups, lack of sex and sex insecurities are so widely spread in the population that it seems as if almost every marriage has significant challenges to work through at some point in their relationship. ED, lack of sex drive and different appetites for experimentation are things that can be worked through with a supportive counselor. Finding an actual sex therapist may be difficult but most MCs should have had extensive experience working through these issues with couples. They definitely need to have the right mindset so you would need to try them out to be sure they were capable of the work but again most should have a lot of experience.

I have some sympathy for AN wife though I see the entitlement and red flags others have pointed out. I am not in a place of major sympathy for wayward behavior right now, but on issues of sex people develop really distorted ideas. Most issues in life get discussed openly and so our dumb ideas get worked through and challenged by hearing other perspectives. Most people don’t talk as openly about sex and so they can stay stuck in some pretty twisted perspectives.

I can see why AN would not want to allow his wife’s bubble of experimentation to remain exclusive to her affair. She may not have liked what she turned herself into for the affair but if she takes the attitude that she will never engage in anything remotely like what she did there it is going to stay preserved in its special bubble. As others have said, she has engaged in role playing and acting and it seems as if only in those carefully designated roles is she willing to give herself the freedom to experiment. It seems like AN is trying to take as loving and accepting a stance as is possible in this convoluted situation. I hope his wife begins to feel safe as a result of his generosity and lets herself explore why she has to wall off her wants and desires so carefully.

Wish AN the best. You seem very measured and thoughtful and your WW is lucky to have you.

HO - I agree mostly with your assessment of shit WS says. However, she said this during a carefully orchestrated MC session where she and her IC conspired together and dropped a nuclear bomb on AN's head. They had both evidently rehearsed how things would go and how to present them to AN. I can't see where she said "You Won" impulsively... but I wasn't there. AN was. In his original post he said "Honestly, I felt trapped, stunned, as the details poured out".

I hope for his sake she has changed her feelings of being entitled.