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Not sure I can move past this...

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SpaceGhost0007 ( member #46539) posted at 12:53 AM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

I do disagree that the reasons matter because they don’t. Reasons are excuses and they may be good or bad but ultimately they don’t matter. There are men in dead bedrooms that seek out sex with women because of that.

I almost never hear of them as victims though. They usually are called disgusting pigs and all they care about is sex. When women do this far too many times they are victims. The predator OM swooped in and he was able to get past her defenses. She is the victim here and we must find out why she’s the victim.

The reasons don’t really matter. If you have a wife or husband who can’t enjoy sex with their spouse the marriage should end. Why in the world should a man live with a woman like that.

We all acknowledge that women can’t and should never be forced to have sex. Why should a man stay married to a woman who gives to another man and withholds from her husband. That’s a minimum requirement to be a wife. She clearly doesn’t want or need a physical relationship with her husband. I am sure she will endure an unfulfilling one with him if he will put up with it. No man deserves that. I guess it’s kind of like watching an abused woman going back to an abusive man. Some people will endure that rather than changing their lives. Ultimately it will be up to him.

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JasonCh ( member #80102) posted at 1:54 AM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

@ hikingout

The below is a single paragraph from page 17 where you were responding to Bigger. I know there were paragraphs before and after it and when i read them i read them in entirety for context. Something about it bother's me and i am just trying to suss out if it is indeed how you intended it.

If this was a woman poster the comments would still see the man as low value but the conversation would not play out the same. You would see less male responders and more female ones. You’d see far less of the "your husband wanted this sex, he enjoyed it, and he just doesn’t like doing it with you" because women are not apt to talk to each other this way. We didn’t learn this locker room backwash.

I am reading that as a man i would not think a male WS 'wanted this sex, he enjoyed it, and he just doesn’t like doing it with you". Are you saying there would be 'less of it' in the thread because less men thought it, less men said it or ...?

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Hippo16 ( member #52440) posted at 4:06 AM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

AspectNorth:

A lot of debate in your thread - in the end the choices you make have to be yours willingly made and willingly accompanied with the hard work to adhere to your decisions.

I am posting here as I think these posts get straight to the point:

(didn't save where I got this:) (BFTG?)
Infidelity rarely exists in a vacuum; it's usually one of many symptoms that a person is selfish, reckless, and morally compromised. Most of the time, we're able to compromise and make excuses for our spouses when we are convinced they love us and are otherwise good people and faithful spouses. But infidelity completely lifts the veil and forces you to confront your partner's true face. At that point, it's not even a question of whether a person can move on from infidelity... it's a question of whether you want to spend the rest of your life with this person, now that you know who they really are.


SpaceGhost0007 ( member #46539)posted at 6:01 PM on Wednesday, March 22nd, 2023

waitedwaytoolong ( member #51519)posted at 6:09 PM on Wednesday, March 22nd, 2023

SpaceGhost0007 ( member #46539)posted at 7:53 PM on Wednesday, March 22nd, 2023

There's no troubled marriage that can't be made worse with adultery."For a person with integrity, there is no possibility of being unhappy enough in your marriage to have an affair, but not unhappy enough to ask for divorce."

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rambler ( member #43747) posted at 4:51 AM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

The support for the WW has been incredible.


Fortunately, OP has listened to everyone.

He is stopping the MC.

He has moved her back to the trailer.

He has said the status quo is not acceptable.

He is standing up for himself.

The ball is inner court.

making it through

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hikingout ( member #59504) posted at 4:59 AM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

I am reading that as a man i would not think a male WS 'wanted this sex, he enjoyed it, and he just doesn’t like doing it with you". Are you saying there would be 'less of it' in the thread because less men thought it, less men said it or ...?

You just do not see the same camp of Bh’s commenting on the bw threads in general.

What happens in a bh’s thread is there is a camp of males who did not reconcile who show up to make the case for divorce.

I have no problem with that case being made at all, nor am I calling them out about it. It’s simply part of the dynamics of this board I have noticed.

Space ghost- I am not saying they matter if you divorce. I am saying that they matter in reconciliation. To reconcile, both parties must come as close of an understanding of each other as possible. It is your position they should divorce and there is nothing wrong with that position and in that scenario I agree with you.

I do disagree with this whole victimhood thing. I am definitely not a victim. Nor do I see this woman as one. I see AN as one who scans his brain for answers that make sense to him. So, I will stay in my lane, and let you stay in yours.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:00 AM, Thursday, March 23rd]

8 years of hard work - WS and BS - Reconciled

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GoldenR ( member #54778) posted at 5:03 AM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

The support for the WW has been incredible.

Crazy, isn't it? They don't even get anywhere near this level of support nor coddling in the Wayward forum. For whatever reason, the minute a BH says that she didn't do for him that which she did for the OP, the troops rally around said WW.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 5:07 AM, Thursday, March 23rd]

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lrpprl ( member #80538) posted at 5:04 AM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

Hippo and SpaceGhost:

100% on what you both say.

The way I see it is this... there is but one question AN needs to answer for himself. Is AN is willing to spend the rest of his life with a wife who has DISRESPECTED him much, much more than any I have ever seen? That she gives her best to his friend, and then serves him crumbs and leftovers. Then she tells him to go sit in the corner and eat his crumbs and leftovers and just be happy she gave those crumbs and leftovers to him?

That is the question he needs to answer and only he can answer it.

We can get into all the whys and wherefores and debate all those till the cows come home. But this is AN's problem and the question he has to answer. We all know how we would answer it. But it is not our question to answer.

AN, I hope you come to an answer and solution that makes you happy.

[This message edited by lrpprl at 1:49 PM, Thursday, March 23rd]

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hikingout ( member #59504) posted at 5:13 AM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

I feel like she is getting coddled here with all the analysis

.

That is definitely not my intention. What happens is I comment and then people ask more questions or comment back . It becomes a general conversation based on one camp finding no path to redemption while others are commenting there are ways depending on how far AN wants to decide to go.

My intention has never been to get the OP to commiserate with his wife. Or anyone to commiserate with a ws. My intention was to balance out the voices that try to logic the crap out of something that was never logical in the first place. Placing meaning where there should be some but isn’t.

Logic is never why we reconcile, or even divorce. And logic is the last thing you will find in an affair. We may try to be logical in our approaches, but too high emotions prevail.

8 years of hard work - WS and BS - Reconciled

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hikingout ( member #59504) posted at 5:20 AM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

Crazy, isn't it? They don't even get anywhere near this level of support nor coddling in the Wayward forum. For whatever reason, the minute a BH says that she didn't do for him that which she did for the OP, the troops rally around said WW.

Okay, for those saying exactly this. Where has anyone on this thread said something that coddles the ww. I want a direct quote. I have seen none of that. I have seen a lot of speculation from both sides but where pray tell are we saying bless her little head? It’s bullshit, frankly.

All we have is a group of collective people who have each said he should file divorce if that’s what he wants.

Then we have two subgroups underneath. A group who thinks that’s his only move. And one that thinks he can do either thing. If thinking that R is possible is coddling the ww, that’s a bit catastrophic on your thinking.

8 years of hard work - WS and BS - Reconciled

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Lurkingsoul12 ( member #82382) posted at 6:41 AM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

I don't think WW has been coddled here. People have only tried to answer the 'Whys' and 'hows' of her actions from their personal experiences.

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GoldenR ( member #54778) posted at 6:52 AM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

There's been waaaayyyyy more "shes damaged" speculation than on posts where the WW didn't do more with their AP. And any posts opining that she liked it better with AP or was more sexually attracted to AP is met with a chorus of "you have no way of knowing that" types of posts. Which is true. But we also have no way of knowing that his WW is damaged. Actually the facts show that she isn't so damaged that she won't do oral. She does do it. Just not with her H.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 7:28 AM, Thursday, March 23rd]

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66charger ( member #69471) posted at 8:12 AM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

What happens in a bh’s thread is there is a camp of males who did not reconcile who show up to make the case for divorce


Deleted.

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Lurkingsoul12 ( member #82382) posted at 8:20 AM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

Don't we all say that cheaters are broken and damaged people. Calling Mrs.Asp broken doesn't deviate from SI's usual description of waywards in general. I don't think anybody here is saying that she should be given a second chance because she is damaged and has no control over her actions. Nobody disputes her free will during her affair. She had free will and chose to have an affair, knowing how big of sin it is and what it would do to her husband and family. She chose that with her free will. What people are doing here is to help OP understand why it happened the way it happened. The purpose here is to explain that it was Mrs. Asp's own deficiencies led to her affair and not the deficiencies of the OP. Can these deficiencies of WW be plunged for reconciliation and a happy future? You will never know until you realize how broken she is. That is the goal of the posters here.

And any posts opining that she liked it better with AP or was more sexually attracted to AP is met with a chorus of "you have no way of knowing that" types of posts.

I think the general disagreement here is with the interpretation of "AP offered her something that OP can't or couldn't"/ "WW saw something in AP that she never saw in OP".

Hellfire explained it very well.

I agree with Golden. But I think people are misinterpreting what he's saying.

It seems,IMO,she does want to do certain sexual things. Afterall,this was an 18 month affair,that was highly sexual,in and out,of the bedroom. But she doesn't want to do those things with her husband, because she wants him to see her in a certain way,due to her upbringing and religious beliefs.

It has nothing to do with her thinking her husband isn't good enough, attractive,etc. Her not wanting to do those things with her husband is about her issues, not about him.

One interpretation imply that OP lacked something that WW wanted, and so he couldn't offer. This highlights OPs deficiency. Other interpretation imply that OP never lacked anything. He could have offered whatever WW wanted, but due to her own deficiencies, brokenness, and misguided view of sex, she couldn't take whatever she wanted from OP. Instead, she went for AP. This highlights her deficiency. The general disagreement here is which interpretation is the valid one here. None of the members here know which one is the valid one with absolute certainty.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 8:29 AM, Thursday, March 23rd]

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Lurkingsoul12 ( member #82382) posted at 8:25 AM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

What happens in a bh’s thread is there is a camp of males who did not reconcile who show up to make the case for divorce

Not true. At least, in this thread this has not been the case. There have been few female posters here who seems to have agreed this marriage (and wife) is too broken to survive.

Also, this kind of generalization should not be encouraged.

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GoldenR ( member #54778) posted at 8:44 AM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

I've not suggested divorce ever in this thread.

In fact I don't think I've suggested divorce here in years.

[This message edited by GoldenR at 9:41 AM, Thursday, March 23rd]

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HouseOfPlane ( member #45739) posted at 10:20 AM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

None of the members here know which one is the valid one with absolute certainty.

None of the members here know which one is the valid one, period.

If the advice given depends on “knowing”, then that’s a problem.

Heck, I bet the WS isn’t certain, and is rationalizing as much as explaining.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 11:01 AM, Thursday, March 23rd]

DDay 1986: R'd, it was hard, hard work.

“Tell me, what is it you plan to do
with your one wild and precious life?”
― Mary Oliver

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WalkinOnEggshelz ( member #29447) posted at 12:13 PM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

And any posts opining that she liked it better with AP or was more sexually attracted to AP is met with a chorus of "you have no way of knowing that" types of posts. Which is true. But we also have no way of knowing that his WW is damaged. Actually the facts show that she isn't so damaged that she won't do oral. She does do it. Just not with her H.

We don’t know what is going through the WW’s head. The problem with this debate is the amount of speculating. I can guarantee, without doing some deep and difficult digging that AN’s WW has no idea why she is thinking or doing the things she has been.

I believe we are all damaged in some way shape or form. What matters is how we cope with that damage. The only thing that is clear is that she has poor coping mechanisms. Anything to do with her motives are purely speculation without her coming here and working through this all herself.

My question is, how does it benefit AN’s healing to be told in very direct and sometimes crude ways that he just doesn’t do it for her? Isn’t that a form of victim blaming? It seems like some people are saying that AN is the problem.

I never have a problem with recommending divorce because of a wayward lacking the remorse or a BS having the inability to forgive. Infidelity is always a valid reason to divorce. What I have a problem with is kicking someone when they are down. When a new BS comes here and we hammer in descriptions of what the affair sex must have been like and say things like she likes all of that, just not with you, it doesn’t seem to be helpful to healing unless the goal is to increase BS shame and increase BS anger towards the WS.

Why not focus more on the BS themselves and help with healing vs coming up with our own sometimes wild narratives of what we think could be happening?

If you keep asking people to give you the benefit of the doubt, they will eventually start to doubt your benefit.

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Butforthegrace ( member #63264) posted at 12:42 PM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

Mrs. AN has said that the things she did in the context of the A were mainly for her, not for the AP. This is consistent with a comment, I believe it was Hellfire, who commented that in a dom/sub dynamic, it is the sub who holds the power, the safe word, the ability to decide when and where to say "no". The dom/sub thing is mainly for the sub. Putting those concepts together, Mrs. AN decided that, while married, she would do things like the following for herself:

-Sent her first upskirt snapshot to another man, while refusing to do so for her BH.

-Took another man's penis willingly into her mouth, presumably for the first time in her life, for the purpose of experiencing what it feels like to service and pleasure a man, while refusing to do so for the BH.

-Denied her BH sex, so she could save it for another man.

-Surreptitiously took sexy photos of herself with her unwitting BH in the frame, to please another man.

Etc.

As others note above, we can dissect Mrs. AN's psychology and hypothesize about her whys, but in the end, these facts will remain the facts that are part of Mr. AN's storyline.

On top of that, for the nearly 2 years since Dday, she has steadfastly refused any sexual acts with Mr. AN other than dark room starfish. Now, she has agreed in concept to take one baby step toward improving the sex life -- paying a visit to a sex therapist -- and a bunch of voices are encouraging Mr. AN from the sidelines to give her a chance. Keep in mind that she has not yet, to my understanding, actually seen a sex therapist. Further, she has made it clear that her stark limits on acceptable marital sexuality remain intact. The impression I have is that she will maybe try to get better at starfish sex.

In other words, I personally see the landscape ahead for Mr. AN, within the context of this marriage, as bleak and barren. As I said in one of my first posts, the Plain of Lethal Flatness. Eventually, as he makes his way across that desert, he will start ruing having decided to take the first step, his thirst so great, no oasis in sight.

Yet, as my own Devil's Advocate, I don't believe I have ever seen a thread that describes a more starkly textbook Madonna/whore complex as this thread. Clearly Mrs. AN has problems. The stunted sex life Mr. AN has endured all of these years is not consistent with the tenets of any Abrahamic faith as practiced in any modern developed nation. They are of her own making and they have roots in what to me seems a profoundly dysfunctional relationship with an extreme and private species of religion, a beast of her own creation. Mr. AN has presumably known this since before they were married, and he endured the ascetic bedroom for all of these years.

Mr. AN has not specified the religion involved, nor has he stated whether he shares a perhaps slightly more dilute version of the same religion, but I have certainly contemplated that he must, simply because it's unusual for a person like Mrs. AN, who adheres to such extreme religious practices, to marry a non-believer. In any case, the marriage in some ways behaves like a marriage to an addict. Being married to an addict is really hard. On one level, kudos to Mr. AN for toughing it out.

What is clear (at least to me) is that the Madonna/whore has always existed inside of Mrs. AN. I used the metaphor of a balloon in an earlier post: you squeeze it on one end, it gets fat on the other end. That is Mrs. AN's sexuality. The affair, with its lurid details, was almost an inevitability. The marriage end of her sex balloon is squeezed with a chastity belt made from about a dozen layers of duct tape. Mrs. AN shared the plump unbound end with the AP. Mr. AN is wheedling for her to now remove maybe one or two of the layers of duct tape from the marriage end. It almost feels like it's only a matter of time before there is a second similar affair.

Mr. AN has likely known this their entire marriage, at least at a sub rosa level, and yet he has toughed it out for the 20 years they've been together, even raising at least one child to teenage years. I have always wondered if he did this because he actually shares the religious views, perhaps aspires to be as stark a practitioner as his wife, or if it was the fact that they had sex before being married, which Mrs. AN must almost certainly view as a nearly mortal sin, and he has therefore remained with her out of a sense of guilt or atonement.

Time will tell. I hope Mr. AN will return here and update us on how they are doing. In an idle moment I was daydreaming about a betting pool in terms of when Mr. AN will conclude that his marital sex life will never achieve any sort of normal level of sexual joy. I honestly believe there is no path to that place for this couple. That, coupled with the mind movies that will accompany Mr. AN if they ever try any new sexual act, to me make the future prospect for this marriage a sexual hellscape. Yet, as HO has pointed out, Mr. AN's last post said he would kick the can down the road yet again and give sex therapy "the old college try", and therefor it is incumbent upon this community to show him some grace. I do admire his apparent ability to repeatedly reset to a beginner's mind. He clearly has a deep and profound well of love and concern for the well-being of Mrs. AN.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 4:41 PM, Thursday, March 23rd]

"The wicked man flees when no one chases."

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Altoid405 ( new member #79846) posted at 2:16 PM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

My situation is similar to AN in some ways and I have found this thread to be helpful.

I appreciate everyone's thoughts and reasonable debates. IMO, everyone has been respectful and I don't see any blaming or coddling, just thoughts and ideas. All are helpful to me in sifting through this mess. Even those that might sting a little. Maybe especially those.

Anyway, best of luck to AN. And thanks again to everyone for participating.

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Dude67 ( member #75700) posted at 2:28 PM on Thursday, March 23rd, 2023

I don’t think there would be as much back and forth discussion and debate here if ANs WWs A was a run of the mill A. This one is highly unique and thus highly charged.

Even given the fact that his WW had porn star sex in the context of a dom/sub relationship, if ANs WW was really able to understand the damage she’s doing towards R, by withholding what she gave to her AP, again, the back and forth here would be muted.

Again, IMO this is not going to be a sex therapy solution kind of thing. Let’s face it, IMO no amount of counseling is going to change ANs WW actions with respect to the type of sex she is willing to have with AN. And, if she does change, most likely it will come with all sorts of resentments attached. Of course, AN will pick up on this is a heartbeat.

No doubt, the details of the sex with AP, and the lack of same with AN is egregious. So to me, ANs decision whether to D or R is simply based on what he can or can’t live with moving forward, given the fact that nothing will change with regards to the status quo.

It’s that level of injustice, snd lack of sexual, and sexually emotional satisfaction, that is at the heart of the matter.

AN is totally aware of this. So as much as I too have zero empathy for ANs WW reasons, I think the mission here is to help AN figure out what his priorities are, what he can or cannot live with, with the mission of helping him figure out whether R or D is right for him.

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