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I don't think this is true though, that most affairs are mirages. I just cannot believe this at least. Sometimes people really do find in their AP, qualities that they found missing in their primary partner. I think that is why affairs are so painful and hit on such a deep fundamental level for the betrayed. They really hit on a nerve of our own inadequacies, I believe.

Well, first, most relationships born from an affair are said to have a 2 percent success rate. It’s hard to believe because everyone has a story of someone they know having a long relationship after. I personally know of at least two couples that it’s true.

But it was my mistake if I didn’t put "most" in my statement.

You also must consider, the fortitude to cheat as a married person with likely a home, children, shared finances, etc is different than that of a dating relationship.

The justification to have an affair in a non-marital relationship do lot need to be as strong. The mitigating factors can be much smaller.

As for the part of the heart you are sharing. Yes, it’s painful to think of an ex with someone who has a bunch of things you don’t have. However, flip that around because you also have a lot of wonderful attributes that other person did not.

I can say this without it being a generalization:

The choice to have an affair is never a statement of the BS’s worth. Putting any of that in the unreliable hands of a ws is a choice you have to unchoose.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:03 PM, Wednesday, March 22nd]

Timing: my crisis, disconnect with my husband, needing emotional connection, etc. proximity: work (where 70 or 80 percent of affairs happen)

If there was any trait I would point at that helped him into my bed would have been he knew all the softer things I needed him to say. It made him seem evolved, emotionally sophisticated.

Truth: He knew because he was a freaking serial cheater. Someone cheating on their own spouse for most of the 30 plus years they were married is not the picture of emotional maturity.

Affairs are mirages that happen in an isolated desert of desperation. Unless you have been in one or have been able to understand that on some levels the way it comes across is how we see it in tv, movies. That two people just got swept up.

Timing. Timbre. Telepathy. Isn't that the troika that underlies a lot of non-adulterous relationships also? Cheating generally does involve a relationship of some sort between the WS and the AP. Many of us have been in non-adulterous relationships that were dysfunctional, that we later regret. I know I certainly have been in more than my fair share. And most of mine occurred during low points in my life, when I was feeling less than adequate, depressed, etc. And I've been in relationships with women who chose me for highly dysfunctional reasons.

The difference with adultery is the context: it occurs at a time when the WS professes to be in a committed relationship already.

Lurking,

I have no idea the answer to that. It’s a good one. But it may be part of the sub/dim dynamic. I am out of my depth in that regard.

It’s far more common to minimize the bs’s rather than involve them, I agree. But yes, it’s illogical, most of the things people do if you watch them closely are. We are walking talking paradoxes.

But for the grace,

All that is true. Absolutely. But the framing of why it’s not logical is met in what you said. We are expecting ws’s to have thought clarity in areas where there is none. It doesn’t make the crime less severe, or excuse one single thing. It’s about trying to understand it so bs don’t blame ourselves.

The harfest part of my recovery from h’s affair was to remove blame from myself for his choices. In my case, it’s been damned near impossible to extract that as a pure thought.

So to me the explanation is far less with getting you to identify with the ws, but to see your separation in their decisions.

WBFA

Sometimes people really do find in their AP, qualities that they found missing in their primary partner. I think that is why affairs are so painful and hit on such a deep fundamental level for the betrayed.

What hits on a deep fundamental level for the betrayed is the belief that the WS found something in the AP missing in the BS. It doesn’t matter if that is a false belief or a true one.

And believing is an active verb here, meaning the betrayed spends time ruminating on the idea, rolling it around, making what they really don’t know as a fact into a real thing.

This thread contains thousands of conjectures stated with almost religious intensity that are in fact unsupported by fact. They Just Don’t Have The Facts Behind Them. They don’t.

A big part of truth and honesty here is acknowledging where we have a sound basis on fact, and where we are making shit up based on prior beliefs, protecting ourselves, or other reason. Otherwise we are just lying to ourselves.

The harfest part of my recovery from h’s affair was to remove blame from myself for his choices. In my case, it’s been damned near impossible to extract that as a pure thought.

Interesting. I hadn't considered that, but now that you articulate it, I can see where that would be a natural place to go for a "first-to-cheat" WS in a MH situation.

Many BS's feel that way even in a non-MH situation. I certain felt that way when my ex cheated on me. As if I had driven her to cheat by being too grumpy too consistently too many times, or some such. I played the so-called "pick-me dance" in a giant way, until it was clear that it was futile. It's often part of the pain of a BS, the forever wondering if you were at least part of the cause of the cheating.

Hi AN,

As you can see this is a topic that gets some of us men riled up.

I’m so sorry this happened to you.

There is a lot of great insight on these pages. Only you know the full story. But I would suggest looking for the commonalities and see how it applies to you.

One commonality is that you have a right to divorce her over this. You would be completely justified. Another is if you did it would always be because of her affair.

I wanna throw my 2 cents in.

I honestly think this is a pretty standard affair. You have been married a long time. You were each others first.

She found him attractive for whatever reason and let down some bad boundaries.

I would guess this is not the first time he has cheated.

She became like a drug addict hooked on him. Really when you tell the story it sounds like a normal relationship. Most of mine started like that. Lots of sex and sex talk in between.

I totally agree it was limerence another word for the beginning of love. Affairs create a lot of false conditions that intensify the beginning stages of these relationships.

She was in love with him doing these new things which added to the excitement.

Also betraying you also added to the excitement. That’s a hard ugly evil truth.

You said AP was the first to disengage. Being stuck home from Covid brought the sex to a stop so he did not like talking to her as much.

He started to show his true colors. Also Sitting there with you worrying and having problems made her hurt more.

Affairs have very similar dynamics to abusive relationships. In fact due to the nature of affairs abusive dynamics are automatically built into them.

We would have to get into abusive relationships but they have extreme highs and extreme lows. The lower the lows get the higher the highs get. So professionals say they only way to get women out of them is for the lows to become so constant that there are very few highs. When the relationship is constant lows then there is an opening.

Being stuck with family with no intoxicating sex gave the therapist the opening they needed to get through to her. To open her eyes to what she was doing and where she was headed.

This is going to be important later when I get to the sex issue.

A marriage counselor named dr Robert glover has a saying "women are attracted to anxiety men are repulsed by it" "affairs have a lot of anxiety built into them".

This is important as there is not way you can recreate this with your wife. Unless you divorce her and she fights for you. Even then it won’t be the same. You two know each other too well.

I can tell you why the used middle names. Often cheating wives will use their maiden name or the AP will not use her married name. It signifies that they are the relationship. The married name stands for the old relationship. The new names are special between them.

Your wife thought they were the relationship. If it was not for Covid this would have gotten much worse.

Also he just wanted sex. Although if he is getting divorced this could be very dangerous as he could try and contact your wife. She still has a bond with him which we’ll get to.

Waitedwaytolong is right. You need to be prepared for that.

Here’s a generalization:

17 page posts always involve discussion around certain unknowns.

We don’t know the nature of Mrs AN’s attraction to AP.

We don’t know her level and nature of consciousness, desire, awareness and state of mind during her A.

We don’t know if she’ll respond to sex therapy.

We don’t know if she’ll respond to sexual ultimatums.

We don’t know the nature of her attraction and attachment to BS vs AP.

I would even question if SHE knows. We’re all just spit balling here, speculating on the unknowns, filling in the blanks with suppositions based on our personal experiences and falling into schools-of-thought camps that resonate with our personal experience.

And that’s all ok. That’s what we all do on the horns of D-day and thereafter until the truth replaces the mythos of the A.

I believe, the only path to a definitive wholistically healthy outcome is for full and absolutely honest and uninhibited self exploration and disclosure of her deepest why’s and how’s with the aid of a damned good therapist(s). The Truth.

The truth will reveal if R is a good prospect or not.

My WW couldn’t achieve this level of self intimacy or, she actually did, and realized that it was time to part ways. I’ll never know.

My WW had layers upon layers of religious and sexual repression and deep insecurities to cut through to get to the unadulterated core of her being. Every once in a while she’d make herself vulnerable to me, briefly revealing a glimpse of it, and it was beautiful and strikingly binding, and then, it would get sucked right back into that abyss.

That level of intimacy was powerful, incredibly binding and could easily have sustained my half the relationship, my healing and would have far eclipsed anything of the A and AP.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 8:58 PM, Wednesday, March 22nd]

BTFG - Yes, I realize that most Bs experience this as a thought track at some point. That’s exactly what I was saying- my reasoning for sharing that thought is not to get one to identify with the ws.

I don’t even know the other ws.

My motivation is getting the bs to see there is a lot happening in most affairs that don’t meet the eye. Each affair has its own unique things, as does each divorce or reconciliation. But by showing the rabbit hole that is much deeper than what they are thinking.

Not to trick them or make them feel sorry for their ws, I don’t feel sorry for myself or my ws. I certainly don’t feel sorry for thier ws.

But to show thought patterns that take over rather than it actually being about them. This is my way of helping them extract that pure thought. Because I too have to listen to what I am saying.

Each time I make a point you seem to want me to see the bigger picture where the bs would have concerns. I never lose track of that, it’s why I am here. It’s just we go far into the weeds and it’s impossible for me to put the disclaimer in each and every response.

I totally agree it was limerence another word for the beginning of love. Affairs create a lot of false conditions that intensify the beginning stages of these relationships.

I agree with most everything you said other than this. Infatuation is what you experienced in the beginning of other relationships.

Limerance requires some of the dynamics unique to an affair. It’s darker and less healthy.

It’s the difference of you going and gambling and having a good time, and a gambling addict.

In infatuation you may make compromises you wouldn’t make in a long term relationship. Likely not something that would harm your future or the lives of those around you.

Infatuation doesn’t operate in a pressure cooker, it doesn’t require justification, cause cognitive dissonance, or lyinb, gaslighting, or betrayal.

Limerance is dark. I have had new relationships, and I have had an affair. Not the same species.

Infatuation has a much higher chance into leaping into healthy love.

Limerance has a much higher chance of two people leaving families for each other only to find out they have bigger issues than ever. There isn’t trust, they fell for each other at a low point, they didn’t slow down because of the hyper fixation. Limerance is more dangerous.

You are comparing a firecracker to a stick of dynamite.

Each time I make a point you seem to want me to see the bigger picture where the bs would have concerns.

I wasn't conscious of doing that. Something for me to consider. I appreciate you pointing it out, actually. My current wife, ahem, "reminds" me frequently of my excessively "male" communication style. I probably am guilty of it here too.

RealityBlows: Your thread, in contrast to this one, really underscores everything HO has been saying. The degree of stepping out by your WW was so minor by SI standards. Yet your marriage did not survive the aftermath, largely (if I read your story correctly) because your WW never succeeded in addressing the underlying issues that led her to cheat in the first place, so they just festered.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:21 PM, Wednesday, March 22nd]

I wasn't conscious of doing that. Something for me to consider. I appreciate you pointing it out, actually. My current wife, ahem, "reminds" me frequently of my excessively "male" communication style. I probably am guilty of it here too.

I smiled reading this. I didn’t want to point at you and say stop mansplaining! Lol! But now that I know you get it, we can use it as shorthand without offense maybe.

I over explain. And that (Captain obvious) is a wrap for me today! CO is a nickname I call myself. So feel free to use that one too 😂

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:53 PM, Wednesday, March 22nd]

CO is a nickname I call myself. So feel free to use that one too 😂

To be honest, CO is more appropriate than HO.. LOL. 😆

What hits on a deep fundamental level for the betrayed is the belief that the WS found something in the AP missing in the BS. It doesn’t matter if that is a false belief or a true one.

And believing is an active verb here, meaning the betrayed spends time ruminating on the idea, rolling it around, making what they really don’t know as a fact into a real thing.

This thread contains thousands of conjectures stated with almost religious intensity that are in fact unsupported by fact. They Just Don’t Have The Facts Behind Them. They don’t.

A big part of truth and honesty here is acknowledging where we have a sound basis on fact, and where we are making shit up based on prior beliefs, protecting ourselves, or other reason. Otherwise we are just lying to ourselves.

1000x THIS.

A lot of people here would do well to get themselves a copy of The Four Agreements.

I feel your pain and wish I could take it away. But you are the only one who can do that. My guess is you won’t but you are responsible for yourself and your happiness.

When my wife cheated I immediately divorced even though I loved her. If my wife is unhappy and sleeps with another guy it’s time to let her go to a better life. Now it didn’t work that way for her. She desired me far more than the OM but I didn’t want to touch her ever again. I did what I thought was kind let her go so she can be with a guy who will adore her.

Now the bare minimum is your wife should desire you. She should want a normal sexual relationship. That is all you are asking for her and if she can’t do that she should be with another man. One thing that cannot be denied is the OM lit a fire inside her. Who knows how or why he did but he did. Does not mean he is better looking or better lover bigger member or any of that crap. It just means he could do that to her and for whatever reason you can’t.

We can speculate on why but it doesn’t matter at all. Women are different than men and when they don’t desire you they can’t help it. The worst thing you can do is try to negotiate or beg or demand sex. It won’t get better and it will get worse. It’s something they have to want and desire. Your wife did desire the OM that cannot be debated. What she is unable or unwilling to do is desire you.

The kindest thing you could do is let her go. How great would it be for her to find another man like her OM? Someone who she desires and wants to please. And how great would it be for you to find another woman who desires you like that. You deserve to be and feel loved by your wife. You didn’t go cheat she did. It is up to you to pull the plug on this. If you don’t then you’re in for a rough ride.

She has it in her to be that woman you know this. She is just not into you. Don’t go for sex therapy and all that crap because it won’t work. Why not divorce and she can look for another guy or see if she can develop the desire for you and prove it to you.

She has had no consequences for her cheating. I personally think you should let her find another guy because I don’t think she gives 2 shits what you do. If she did she wouldn’t have to set rules so the OM gets the best of her and you get the rest. Stand up for yourself and let her go be with another. Because she really doesn’t seem to care about you.

So much on the thread is conjecture on her thought process. It’s good to figure out in the sense that she hopefully can create boundaries so she doesn’t do it again. But the fact remains she had an 18 month affair that was both emotional, and highly sexual. I often feel by focusing so much on the reasons, we forget the fact she had free will, fucked over AN, and the reasons become the excuse. We figured out why my EX did it. She felt invisible and that as a middle aged woman this was kind of a last grasp to be relevant. Our MC tried to get all cerebral on how empty nest women easily fall into this. I could give a shit. She fucked some guy in our bed over and over, and had sex with me the same day. Nothing cerebral about that

There is always a reason people drink. They are depressed, have money issues, but if they drink and drive and kill someone do you think the victim’s family cares about why they drank.

It’s personal responsibility and she was irresponsible for a year and a half. Frankly she deserves all the pain she is getting. I feel like she is getting coddled here with all the analysis.

She could have stopped this at any point, but just didn’t care about AN. I’m just not buying the "power of the Dom" stuff here

The comments about dom/sub relationships are wrong.

Anyone who has that kink,knows that it's actually the sub who has the power in that relationship.

So saying she did certain things because as a sub,she did what her dom told her to do,is incorrect.

A sub can say no at anytime,for any reason. A Dom respects that. That is why she is the one with all of the power.

She did not stop having sex with her husband because she was told to. She did not send provocative pics with her unknowing husband in the background because she was told to. She was choosing to fulfill his requests.

She could always say no. She didn't want to. Her reasons don't matter. She wanted to.

[This message edited by HellFire at 11:39 PM, Wednesday, March 22nd]

We will have to agree to disagree.

The why matters a lot to a spouse who thinks there is something that inspired this that they are somehow blaming themselves for.

Otherwise, we are expected to believe empty lines of how it wasn’t about the AP without explanation.

In addition, as long as there are voices who default to reconciliation isn’t possible or deeming someone’s ws not worthy of R, then there will always be voices to counterbalance that. It’s kind of the point of the whole site.

And in the end, the OP will always takes what resonates with them.

I don’t disagree a ws cheats because they want to, but if that’s as deeply as it’s explored no one would ever truly reconcile. The conditions, context, and reasons all matter. They are a small part of the picture just like timelines, truth discovery, trickle truth, no trickle truth. A bs on the femce desires to weigh everything. And we can’t say what they find helpful or not.

Ok. You're right. The why matters.

15 years out from dday,and sure,my husband had his whys. That doesn't make me feel less betrayed.

OP...has your wife scheduled an appointment with a sex therapist yet?

RealityBlows: Your thread, in contrast to this one, really underscores everything HO has been saying...

Yeah, HO explains really well what seemed to be going on, what I suspected. I just wish my WW would-could have made introspective revelations on the level that HO has. She just wouldn’t go there. She lives her life on a very safe and superficial plain and still drifts into waywardly-esque behavior.

A lot of similarities though to AN’s case: out of character sex; similar dominant manipulative style AP; religious influence, sexual naïveté, guilt repression; late bloomer, not a lot of previous partners; same age

I’ve appreciated both yours and HO’s takes on what might be going on here. It has really rounded off the discussion well. I think AN is getting some good stuff here.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 12:44 AM, Thursday, March 23rd]