SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Do you now get to explore all those sexual fantasy and role play too? Seems to me that the WW and IC have worked up a plan to get you to play ball and you were given a chance to R by your WW and IC, rather than the other way around.

Yes, your WW may be working hard and an ideal candidate for R, but her control of the relationship and how she wants to have the affair as her choosing you when you had no idea you were in a competition is problematic. And just like she went on to play this game without your knowledge, you will never know if she chooses to do this again. Or she just may choose that she no longer wants to be married to you down the road without cheating, just b/c that's who she is.

To me, and since I went through this and crossed to the other side and found a better parter, I say no way. No way are you ever going to get over the sex that she had with AP, and you're not going to get the same. No way is there ever going to be a good explanation for the affair, and you don't wake up one day feeling better about it. Sure people R, and it can work out, but at what cost and risk. There is a mental cost to you, and a risk associated with sticking with your WW. You may want to see what a divorce looks like financially for you and weigh your own risk.

There is life on the other side if you want it, and the best part about it is that you will never feel like what if she cheats again. YOu will never feel like maybe in 5 yrs, you should have just divorced her, but you wasted more of your time and years. Time, you will never get back. At 50 you can still get back out there date and have 15 yrs to rebuild. If you waste another 5 yrs on this with her, it just steals more of your time and ability to rebuild. When you don't the anchor, you can heal faster and start fresh.

I'm curious about one statement:

I can't claim to be the model BH in all this, and I have made some spectacular mistakes and missteps, but here we are.

I'm curious what you mean by that. If I understand your initial post correctly, your WW engaged in a prolonged, highly sexual affair with a man whom you also know. You don't provide many details of the affair other than to say that she enthusiastically engaged in multiple sex acts with the AP that have been denied to you.

Among other things, to carry on an affair of that magnitude, she had to have lied to you many times. Thousands probably. Weaving a web of wicked lies and cruel gaslighting to keep you off her track. All for the specific purpose of carrying on sexually with the AP.

The one thing that is normal for a BH in the aftermath of that is anger. A shit-ton of anger. Rage even. To be a "model" BH means being brutally honest. Just as honest as you expect her to be. That means, short of physical abuse, expressing your rage in a raw, unvarnished manner. Letting her know just how hurt you are. How angry. How emasculated and sexually humiliated. Expressing those sort of things is ugly and hurtful, but there really is no other way to be a betrayed husband.

In light of that, I wonder what you mean by not being "the model BH in all this."

You say:

After working through all the other issues, I just don't know how to move past the 2 above. I don't seem to be able to process them, and it doesn't seem to be changing. The gnawing knot in my stomach when I think of those 2 things doesn't seem to have changed at all.

The place you are in is very common in terms of affair aftermath. The "Plain of Lethal Flatness" I describe above. It is a common node. A point where many BH's decide to divorce, for all of the reasons stated (and so poignantly articulated by Waitedwaytoolong).

IC and MC encourage us to state our boundaries, and emphasize that neither one of us should feel pressured into pushing beyond those boundaries, and should be respected by the other party. I understand the concept and agree with this.

This is where The 180 might be a useful tool for you. Or even a separation. These are not devices to inflict pain nor punishment on your WW. They are intended to give you psychological space, so that you can find your heart's truth. Your WW has been honest with you about her boundaries (in terms of not being willing to explore these sexual arenas with you). Fine. You should honor and respect that. But what I hear from you is that your boundary is not being willing to remain in a marriage with a woman who would consciously choose to disrespect your masculine sexuality in such a profound manner. Which is also perfectly fine. You can still love her, by the way, and decide you wish to no longer be married to her. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

Which leads me to my next point:

So I am looking for advice I guess, encouragement maybe? Do I need to give it more time? commit to a further 1, 3 or 6 months? or do I call time and accept the fallout as our family disintegrates.

Your family won't "disintegrate" if you divorce. Your family will always be your family. The only change will be the metes and bounds in terms of where family events take place, and the landscape and rhythms of interactions between and amongst family members as you and your (future) ex-wife figure out how to co-parent. Millions of children of divorced parents grow up healthy and well-adjusted. It is worse, in my opinion, to model for children a family of sub rosa seething resentment and hostility. Children are way more perceptive than adults. They see this stuff very clearly. You'd be doing them a disservice to think it should be something they ought to aspire to.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:56 PM, Monday, March 13th]

1. I was oblivious, and I was part of a "pick me" dance without my knowledge. The way DD occurred, I really didn't have an opportunity to start a 180. I feel like I have been weighed and measured by WW and IC and deemed worthy in absentia. I wasn't really part of the process. I just can't help but feel I've been cheated, even in the R.

I think I would probably tell the MC and WW that I am making a short-term commitment to focus on myself and not on what's best for the marriage, the family, or anyone else. Maybe even book a nice vacation alone during that time, or get a short-term rental, if that's what you want to do. Or maybe just announce a moratorium on working on the relationship while you think about what you want for a while. She robbed you of your agency by having the A, and then she robbed you again by deciding that you "won" and that you two would be R'ing.

Regarding the sex issues, I think a sex therapist is in order, if you decide that you want to R. She's got spicy sex all tied up in her brain with "bad" and "betrayal" - of you and maybe of herself. I think it will take a professional to unravel it. I can tell you right now that if the OW got anything that my H was unwilling to give to me, that would be a dealbreaker. She may not ever be able to overcome this issue. Do you think that you can accept that?

Wow! Thank you to all who have taken the time to read my ramblings and especially those who took the time to reply.

Some of your posts have been so spot on, it's like you are seeing inside my head.

Ok, so a couple of clarifications.

How C-day works. Basically it's a commitment made in "good faith", where, what we are saying is that all things being equal, we either continue on the R path, or not. It is not binding, and is really an opportunity for WW to show her commitment to the process, and then for me to set the terms (ie. length of time I'm prepared to continue). My declining to commit does not trigger any further actions (indeed, I have declined to commit in the earlier phase during the day-by-day period), and it gives everyone a clearer picture of where things are at.

Secondly, DD. DD occurred during the second major COVID lockdown. We were only allowed to leave the home for 2 hours per day etc etc and WFH was the order of the day. Following disclosure, WW moved out of our bedroom (at my insistence) to our Caravan (travel trailer) while I processed everything. My feelings towards her IC are indeed complicated. In one sense I'm grateful that IC was able to help WW through her depression and other issues to help her on a path towards becoming healthier, but on the other hand, I can't help but also see her as a co-conspirator? (does that make sense?) I mean that IC had no dog in the fight, had WW decided she wanted AP, IC would have likely supported that position too - so I am keenly aware that IC is in no way on "my side" in this. Initially, during lockdown, an attempt at R seemed the logical choice at the time - given neither of us were going anywhere. I get the idea of control some of you have raised - it has occurred to me as well, however it is something that the MC is keenly aware of, and MC works very hard to give me agency in the sessions and the overall direction of the MC and R more generally.

Now the sex thing. Please be aware that I'm not completely comfortable with typing this - so if I write the wrong thing, or provide too much information, I apologise in advance. So regarding the sex between WW and AP, I have all the details I could want, including locations, dates and sex acts performed. I also have another document that I have not yet been able to read which contains more detailed descriptions of what occurred. I know that one day, I will either read that document, or delete it - but I don't see that day happening soon.

So vanilla sex between WW and I basically consists of Missionary PIV only, with WW adopting a passive role. Lights off, in bed, quietly so teenagers do not hear. Exploration of new positions, OS (giving or receiving) or any other things many other couples consider routine have never been part of our bedroom activities. Curiously, WW maintains that she has never had an issue climaxing with me, and "doesn't wanna mess with what works".

On the other hand, the PA was initiated with WW providing OS to AP, with it being reciprocated shortly afterwards. From what I can tell, the physical side of the A consisted of "pushing WW boundaries" and "opening her sexual horizons", as she was inexperienced as I was her first. Her AP seemed to get off on the idea of introducing WW to the new things, to rack up as many "firsts" as possible. (god that's painful to think about/type). WW was an active participant. Their bedroom was a whirlwind, whereas ours has been a light breeze at best.

I have a huge amount of resentment that at least some of the refusals that I experienced from WW during the A were at the urging of AP. He didn't like the idea of her being with me and not him. OBS confirmed that AP has a jealous streak. I still get angry that WW was denying me to "be faithful" to her AP - omfg - the hypocrisy!!

So yes - I am considering ending it over the sex thing. It eats me up inside, and twists my thoughts. I struggle to enjoy the things with WW as those mind movies play uninvited in my mind at the most inopportune times. I worry about if I am shallow to end it over the sex, but that is kinda where I'm coming to I think.

My relationship with the OBS is another thing. Has anyone else experienced an irrationally strong bond with the OBS following an A? I don't mean physical, or necessarily romantic in nature, but the pull I feel towards the OBS in all this has been surprising. I find I must be mindful of my boundaries during my interactions with OBS. They too are working on an R, but it seems to be going rockier than ours. AP has experienced some health issues (unrelated to A), and has developed ED as part of it (my heart bleeds!).

So yeah - that's where I'm at. Is this as good as it gets? (maybe?), Am I ok with vanilla only going forward (no... not at all). Even with WW going above and beyond in everything else - is it enough? (maybe, maybe not?). I could describe my thoughts on our future in one word at the moment "blah".

So thank you those who have read through my second tome, the feedback is really helpful. I don't feel so shallow and self centred considering leaving the marriage, despite WW good works.

Cheers.

"She's got spicy sex all tied up in her brain with "bad" and "betrayal" - of you and maybe of herself."

This. Yes - you have hit the nail completely on the head with this one. This is exactly the dynamic. Thank you SacredSoulSister for stating this so succinctly.

I worry about if I am shallow to end it over the sex, but that is kinda where I'm coming to I think.

It's not shallow at all, IMO. Like I said above, if my H refused to do things with me that he did with the OW, that would be a dealbreaker. You're also allowed to want what you want, regardless.

My relationship with the OBS is another thing. Has anyone else experienced an irrationally strong bond with the OBS following an A? I don't mean physical, or necessarily romantic in nature, but the pull I feel towards the OBS in all this has been surprising.

Careful there. Why are you still in contact with the OBS? Does your W know?

I had "won" she told me (I didn't even know I was in a competition!)

Oh goody gumdrops, you won! Like she’s quite a prize.

Sorry, I experienced that same line after D-Day.

Sounds like your WW is doing "everything right", by the numbers. How does it FEEL though? Does it feel like true remorse or, like she’s rotely following IKEA instructions for assembling a reconciliation?

IC and MC encourage us to state our boundaries, and emphasize that neither one of us should feel pressured into pushing beyond those boundaries, and should be respected by the other party.

The boundaries statement from your IC/MC is interesting. How convenient for her. Now she can hide behind this set boundaries directorate and keep certain uncomfortable conversations off limits? This sounds a little like rug sweeping to me.

So yes - I am considering ending it over the sex thing. It eats me up inside, and twists my thoughts. I struggle to enjoy the things with WW as those mind movies play uninvited in my mind at the most inopportune times. I worry about if I am shallow to end it over the sex, but that is kinda where I'm coming to I think.

This is not at all shallow. In fact it's totally normal. This whole site is about infidelity. Tons of people divorce over adulterous sex. End of the day, you are right to be resentful and angry at the decisions and choices your WW has made, (a) first to deny you these sexual explorations, (b) then to choose to grant these explorations to the AP, and (c) now, to again deny you, for a pretty bullshit and wholly synthetic reason. Keep in mind that these are volitional choices and decisions that your WW is making. You obviously need to respect her autonomy to make those choices, but in response it is completely rational and fair for you to choose to leave the marriage due to the fact that you find her choices untenable.

My relationship with the OBS is another thing. Has anyone else experienced an irrationally strong bond with the OBS following an A? I don't mean physical, or necessarily romantic in nature, but the pull I feel towards the OBS in all this has been surprising.

This is normal. You two are bonded by a shared trauma. Like war veterans who were together in a trench.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 11:37 PM, Monday, March 13th]

I think one conclusion I can safely draw from my time here at SI is this:

No one who hasn’t experienced the wound of their spouse being more sexually adventurous with the AP than with them, whether it is before, during, or after the affair, knows how deep that cut is. This seems to surface in particular with BH whose wife returns to the marriage but continues to withhold from the BH the sexually adventurous side of her she shared with the AP.

I can’t say I’ve ever seen that story end well.

Yes, agree with BFTG’s analysis. You’re experiencing a "Trauma Bond" with OBS. That’s natural, normal and OK as long as boundaries are maintained and you two understand the nature of your relationship-bond, and it’s limitations.

"She's got spicy sex all tied up in her brain with "bad" and "betrayal" - of you and maybe of herself."

This is very interesting. Is your WW triggered by uncharacteristic spicy sex acts performed during the A and feels uncomfortable doing them with you? Are these act’s surrounded in shame, trigger shame, feel shameful now in the wake of D-Day? Perhaps these sex acts were transactional, not enjoyed by her, and given only as payment for validation? I could totally understand this except, your WW’s A lasted 18 months. That’s a long time for a transactional relationship based solely on shameful sex for him, validation for her. I would think a relationship based on such shallow rewards would run its course in short time.

These are things that need to be openly discussed and mutually explored, not placed off limits by these therapists enabled boundaries.

These questions you have are not part of some kind of sadistic pain shopping morbid curiosity, they’re legitimate.

You want to know if there’s proper sustainable sexual chemistry between you and your WW. You want to know if she’ll wonder again. Hell yeah! You want to know, if she’s trying to R for practical pragmatic reasons or, does she desire you in every way a spouse should. You want to know if she going to be laying there pretending you’re him. You want to know if she’s going to spend the rest of your marriage reminiscing about him.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 12:18 AM, Tuesday, March 14th]

Ok… so some perspective on the timeline of the A is probably helpful here…

18 month affair period includes the EA component which started around March 2019. PA commenced around September 2019 which was a flurry of sexual experimentation and yes… I believe it was transactional for the ego boost it gave her…

Then Covid happened in 2020 with lockdowns in Australia occurring for most of the period between March and December… EA continued during lockdown right up to DDay.

Hope this clears things up….

I don't put a lot of weight in that transactional theory ("blowjobs for ego kibbles"). Not that I doubt it is a thing. Rather, logically, what sort of legitimate validation was a man in the position of AP able to give her? Isn't a man's commitment of his entire life -- all of his work, income, care, protection, and love -- sort of the ultimate validation?

The reality is that she self-validated. The sex was to entice a man to lust after her sexually. Make no mistake: she returned specifically for the purpose of having experimental, boundary-pushing sex with another man. She decided to do that, behind your back. She chose it, knowing how much it would destroy you. Because she wanted more sex.

I do not doubt that, through the sex, she found some twisted sense of validation. However, validation wasn't something the AP conferred to her. It was something she synthesized within herself, from the miasma of sex and lust and illicit thrills she chose to pursue.

Unless she has admitted that to herself and figured out what is broken in her that led her to make such choices, she isn't even a safe partner at present.

AspectNorth:

Folks here have given good advice.

You have PMs set to off so I will post here suggestion to read some past threads.

Spaceghost0007 and Walloped.

If you cannot locate - post here and someone can enter the url for you to use.

Both threads are heart rending and full of advice and different points of view.

they are long threads

I can't help but also see her as a co-conspirator? (does that make sense?)

It makes absolute sense. You perceive that the IC was in cahoots with your WW to ambush you. It was possibly designed for WW's benefit rather than yours, even though you got a confession out of it. Your WW unloaded her guilt, and you had no time to think about your response, so dumbly committed to R, bypassing the decision stage, where you make considered decisions/choices to head towards R or D.

I still get angry that WW was denying me to "be faithful" to her AP - omfg - the hypocrisy!!

Understandably so, as it indicates that your WWs loyalties lay with her AP and not her husband. Your WW respected her AP to listen to him, she was 'his' and not your wife. Your WW made the conscious choice to obey her AP.

I worry about if I am shallow to end it over the sex, but that is kinda where I'm coming to I think.

Why do you think this train of thought is shallow? You set your own boundaries, not others. Anyway, why do you need to use the sex as a reason for D? You can D for no reason at all.

Even with WW going above and beyond in everything else - is it enough?

What is your WW doing to say that she is going above and beyond? What actions has she taken? Are they really going above and beyond, or is she doing what she was supposed to be doing in the first place, like protecting the M, respecting you, etc?

If going to IC is going above and beyond, then your benchmark is pretty low. If she is giving you total access to all her communications, that is not going above and beyond. Is she telling you where she is going and takes a pic to show that she is where she is? Well, sorry to break it to you, but that is not going above and beyond. Is she comforting you when you trigger? Also not going above and beyond.

So, perhaps it would be good to have a really good, deep look at what her actions are that you consider above and beyond.

[This message edited by RocketRaccoon at 7:06 AM, Tuesday, March 14th]

So yes - I am considering ending it over the sex thing. It eats me up inside, and twists my thoughts. I struggle to enjoy the things with WW as those mind movies play uninvited in my mind at the most inopportune times. I worry about if I am shallow to end it over the sex, but that is kinda where I'm coming to I think.

Correction... if your marriage ends, it will not be because you're unhappy with your sex life... it will be because your wife had sex with another man. You would've never even considered leaving her over "vanilla sex" if she had been faithful.

Even with WW going above and beyond in everything else - is it enough?

Like every WS, your wife embarked on this affair knowing that divorce was a possibility. If that thought never occurred to her-- or she simply thought she would be able to dig herself out of whatever abyss she created for herself-- then she's foolish and delusional. Please keep this in mind when you start second-guessing whether you're being too trivial or harsh.

It also doesn't matter if she's "going above and beyond" in doing everything that she thinks she should do. What matters is how you feel and what you need.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:50 PM, Tuesday, March 14th]

Regarding the sex issues, I think a sex therapist is in order, if you decide that you want to R. She's got spicy sex all tied up in her brain with "bad" and "betrayal" - of you and maybe of herself.

I think the above is a reasonable request and shows that your WW would at least be willing to explore this issue with you. I mean you've been seeing her choosen counselor for a time. Isn't it fair that she would do the same? If she says no to this I don't see R working out for either of you. I would file for D the day after thst request is declined.

Honestly I think you'd be better off finding a partner that allows you to be you versus who they want you to be.

The thing about sex problem is that she is being fundamentally dishonest with you and herself. Unless that changes you are going to be the madonna while she still looks for the whores to explore her sexuality. Has she even trying to figure out why she choose to have an affair?

Has she ever addressed how she ambushed you and the role of the IC/MC ?

Maybe you need new counselors that are neutral versus being selfishly hand picked by your wife to suit her own purposes. There seems to be two people driving R, but neither is you (Your W and her choosen counselor).

[This message edited by numb&dumb at 4:41 PM, Tuesday, March 14th]

I don't think you did the pick-me dance, because IMO one has to know one is doing it to do it, if you will. You were being yourself, and your W chose to end her A.

The 'you won' comment is incredibly out of line because it shows your W doesn't understand what she did. She has missed the fact that she's no prize because of her A. She's missed that she A'ed down with her ap, andthat her ap A'ed down with her.

Your wrote that you were blindsided by your W's A, 'unlike' the rest of us. In fact, many of us were completely blindsided. Many of us were oblivious. That's not our fault. In fact, believing what one's partner tells us is the normal action by a loving partner. None of us is responsible for our partners' lies. They took advantage of our love. That's on them, not on us.

Shame naturally attaches to our letting ourselves be fooled - but the shame really belongs to the liar, not the loving believer.

*****

Not coming to agreement on what your sex life will be if you R is not shallow - it's a top notch reason for splitting. R is a process of resolving issues, and if you can't resolve it to both party's satisfaction, splitting can be the best resolution.

If you're not willing to accept staying in an unsatisfying M, you really are free to D. You do not owe your W the gift of R. You can dump her an hold your head high.

If R still has attractions, though, I recommend asking your W what allowed her to be freer sexually with her ap, who didn't love her, than with you, who does. Why is she denying pleasure with you? Why is she denying you pleasure? What's the payoff for her?

******

Teenagers may think their parents are too old for sex, and they may think sex between people as old as their parents is disgusting, but what do teenagers know?

******

My reco is to reframe this thread's topic to something like, 'I'm going to heal, but I don't know if I'm going to R or D'.

You are going to get past/through this one way or another, and you're going to thrive no matter what. Set your sights on thriving - it's hard work, but eminently doable, and making that your goal makes it more likely that you'll achieve it.

*****

Make no mistake: she returned specifically for the purpose of having experimental, boundary-pushing sex with another man.

Um ... maybe this is true, but the A could have continued for a variety of reasons. I'm not in your W's head, so I don't know what she was thinking and feeling, but my bet is that this was not the only reason and perhaps wasn't a very powerful reason at all.

Pretending one knows what another completely unknown person thinks/feels/believes is not a guideline violation on SI, but it IS a violation of all we know about good thinking.

*****

Your W's IC owes a duty to your W, not to anyone else, as long as the client hasn't revealed abuse of a child or that the client is a danger to self or other.

I'm impressed that your W prepared the proof of her A before revealing it. Was that due to the ICC? If it was, the IC may be as much on your side and another person's IC can be.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:11 PM, Tuesday, March 14th]

It sounds to me like you don't like the fact you were sharing your wife without your knowledge, she gave something of herself that if anyone should have received it then it should have been you, and then informed in a way that didn't allow you as much of a choice in the matter (basically this terrible betrayal from the person you gave your life, heart, past, present, and whatever future you may still have together has been talked over by the ic and your wife so don't please just sit and listen. Don't worry we figured this out).
Maybe I'm off on all this. But if I'm correct on this then I just want to say that it's okay if you have a problem with it. You didn't agree to any of it. You do not need to accept it.
I hope you find a way to heal man. I'm sorry this happened.

I can't claim to be the model BH in all this, and I have made some spectacular mistakes and missteps, but here we are.

Like another person posted, this seemingly throw-away statement needs to be explored.

I’m uncertain of what expectations can be leveled against a betrayed spouse that could make them less than model. Simply replace BH with the words trauma victim. Do you see? What would make a model trauma victim?

Your casual mention of this leads me to believe that there is some kind of false equivalency of your experience of being betrayed and hers as she seeks reconciliation.

Not for one minute, regardless of her current positive actions, should you hold your confusion, sorrow, disbelief and the resulting behavior as less than model. Please do not minimize your suffering or the staggering impact her cheating had on your life

I'm sorry you're here, brother.

Regarding the sex thing, now you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that's its not that she doesn't like doing those things, SHE JUST DOESN'T LIKE DOING THEM WITH YOU.

That's a very valid reason to call it quits, perhaps THE most valid reason of all.