SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

"you are gonna throw everything away coz I won’t give you [oral sex]?"…

You should do some Googling on the concept of DARVO. That statement is a master class in DARVO. Almost like she was prepped to deliver this virtuoso stanza, perhaps (ahem) by a counselor who is coaching her with the over-arching plan to manage you.

You can see the road map she is prepared to follow. You file divorce, and she tells all of your friends and relatives that you are divorcing her because she won’t give you a blowjob. She will make you out to be shallow and selfish.

The answer is that she "threw everything away" when she decided that she would rather betray you sexually with your friend than honor her marriage vows.

Since then, you have been considering whether to give her an opportunity to repair what she has broken. But in the process, you've been learning more about her, and you're not sure you love or even like the person who would make the choices she has made with respect to you.

-She chose to marry you and promise you a lifetime of fidelity.

-She then chose to impose abnormally restrictive sexual boundaries within the context of your marriage.

-She then chose to secretly redefine her half of the marriage as an open marriage, arrogating to herself the freedom to have sex, repeatedly and enthusiastically, with another man, a friend of yours.

-In that context, she then chose to give the other man a wider range of enthusiastic sexual experiences than she has offered you.

-She has now chosen to ask you to simply accept this as a fait accompli and return to the status quo prior to the affair.

In so choosing, your wife was the first of the two of you to choose to leave the marriage. The elephant in the room here, that I don't think anybody has discussed, is that, from what I can glean from your posts, your WW enjoyed herself in the context of her A. It was fun and thrilling for her. She had her cake and ate it too.

"No, I'm not 'throwing it all away' because you won't give me oral sex. I am sexually frustrated in our marriage, but this is not the reason I'm divorcing you. I am divorcing you because you committed adultery with my friend, in a manner that was despicable and disgusting, never mind profoundly humiliating to me as a man. In processing this I've seen sides of you that I didn't previously realize existed and, quite frankly, I do not wish to remain married to a woman like you who would choose to do the things you have done."

The hypocrisy of her DARVO statement is here:

and then the killer "all you guys are the same… everything is about sex!"

Say what? SHE is the one who chose to have extramarital sex, not you. She is the one who injected sexual betrayal into the marriage not you. As between the two of you, she is the one who has made this "all about sex". Affairs are precisely about sex. She ended your marriage so she could give blowjobs to your friend. The fallacy in her DARVO is the straw man fallacy. You aren’t throwing everything away. She already did that.

By the way, there was some speculation about her "whys" above. Specifically, the "why" she won't give you blowjobs now (because she associates "spicy" with "bad"). I don't buy that for a minute, but if she does associate "spicy" with "bad", it is because of her intentional choices. She chose to create that association. Why should you bear the burden? It is often said here, don't set yourself on fire to keep somebody else warm.

My view is consistent with a truism repeated here all the time: fundamentally, cheaters cheat because they want to. Your wife gave your friend blowjobs, returning repeatedly for months, because she wanted to. It's really that simple.

As to you wanting a blowjob, the answer is that you want the one specific species of blowjob that she can’t possibly ever give you. Specifically, you want a blowjob from somebody who actually desires to and enjoys providing it, which is precisely the one thing she can never give you. No matter what she does going forward, there is no way for her to give you a blowjob without you at least wondering whether she's forcing herself to do it out of a sense of duress. Oral sex is functionally off the table for your present marriage, forever.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 9:17 PM, Wednesday, March 15th]

This whole thing boils down to two questions she needs to answer.

1. Why does she think 'Oral sex' etc are bad or repulsive for her?Almost every couple do these things on regular basis without much inhibitions.

2. Why did she allow herself to do all those 'bad' or 'repulsive' acts with her AP and continued to do for such a long time? What was so great about him or the affair that she was ready deviate from her regular sexual preferences?

These are questions she needs to answers if she intends to reconcile with you. This is the puzzle you both need to solve. Otherwise, there is no hope for reconciliation.

There is a possibility that she was never really sexually attracted to you. But, for obvious reasons she can't just tell you that without cutting you much deeper.

WW became quite upset at this and at one point said "you are gonna throw everything away coz I won’t give you [oral sex]?"… and then the killer "all you guys are the same… everything is about sex!"

Correction, she threw your marriage away when she choose to engage in her affair with another man. She did that, not you. You aren't throwing everything away because of her unwillingness to provide fellatio, you are throwing it away because she willingly choose to give another man fellatio. The way she said it indicates clear wayward thinking to me.

Any sex act that was off the table prior to the affair but was done during the affair would be a lot for any spouse to forgive, especially now that aforementioned act(s) is off the table in the marriage. Speaking as BH, I know that generally speaking, sex has always been an important aspect of my marriage, so finding out that the OM was allowed certain liberties that I'm regularly denied would be a huge deal. The fact that your wife is not seeing that is clear that she isn't doing the work she needs to do in order to a safe partner for you.

The more the OP posts the more I’m convinced he needs to go hard 180, separate, and begin a divorce. I say that as possibly one of the greatest apologists for WW and reconciliation on this board.

I don't put a lot of weight in that transactional theory ("blowjobs for ego kibbles"). Not that I doubt it is a thing. Rather, logically, what sort of legitimate validation was a man in the position of AP able to give her? Isn't a man's commitment of his entire life -- all of his work, income, care, protection, and love -- sort of the ultimate validation?

Gently, just because you don’t understand something, or it’s not the way that your brain works, doesn’t mean it’s not real. Just because it’s not necessarily logical, doesn’t mean that it’s not what happened. Time and time again, actual WWs (many who have done the work) have arrived here and explained that this was precisely their mentality. Countless BHs have reported that this is what their WWs have reported. As a non-Wayward woman myself, I can fully understand how the desire to feel wanted could be more motivating than the sex itself. I can see it applying doubly so for the WW in this situation who is certainly not sexually adventurous/sex-motivated in her regular life and was CLEARLY was acting in a way contrary to that during the A. I certainly don’t buy GoldenR's argument that maybe she liked doing it all along "JUST NOT WITH YOU" – this is woman so sexually repressed that she thinks BJs are scandalous.

If a spouse’s commitment of their entire life was truly the ultimate validation and enough to prevent future A’s, most of us would not find ourselves here. Waywards, as a group, tend to be leaky sievs for external validation. They are always looking for the next hit. What a particular person finds validating is specific to them.

AspectNorth - You’ve been given a particularly tough pill to swallow. I, personally, don’t think you have to accept it. We often talk here about regardless of whether a couple decides to stay together or not, the act of infidelity destroys the old marriage. Like, it is literally over – it only exists in the history books. If a couple attempts to R, they are literally making the decision to rebuild a new marriage. It is not enough to simply say, "okay back to the way things are, this time with no cheating." That is not a new marriage. That was the same deal you THOUGHT you had signed up for originally – didn’t work so well, did it. Your new marriage can be anything you want it to be. Presumably it involves improved emotional intimacy and some new boundaries in terms of members of the opposite sex. In your case, it makes sense that it also involves a wife that is at least OPEN to exploring sexually with you. If you were to D and were looking for a new partner, isn’t that something that you would be looking for?

I imagine some people here will say that as a precondition of R, your wife must submit to every act she participated in with the OM, no matter how humiliating she finds it. That sort of sexual checklist seems a lot like comparing yourself to the AP (he got it, so I should get it too), which you mention is something that you are trying to avoid. If that’s what you’re after, and if it’s not something she’s interested in, I agree with ChamomileTea that unfortunately it simply becomes transactional and coercive, which does not sound like the basis of a healthy new marriage and you are likely better off cutting your losses and pulling the plug.

That said, wanting a healthy and mutually satisfying sex life is certainly not an unreasonable ask - affair or not. Sexual exploration with a safe and loving partner, should not be viewed (by either of you) as a penalty for her sins.

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Finally, and we’ve certainly put the cart before the horse here, but AspectNorth- what is it that you want? Your post talks a lot about your WW and her actions and what she wants but it doesn’t indicate what your ideal scenario would be here. It seems it makes sense to figure that out first and then work backwards. It sounds like you got steamrolled into R. Is that where you want to be? You're not sure if you can move past this, but do you WANT to?

If we go by your first post, your WW started w a counselor and then this same counselor became your marriage counselor.

It is said many times on here that one should not go directly to MC without working on themselves first, because this is such a traumatic experience. Thinking that the marriage was the reason for your wife cheating is false thinking. Also puts all blame on you. An affair and the choice to have an affair is all on the WS. Not you. Your wife chose her IC which then became by default I guess or by her wishes, your then MC. Not again fair to you. Kinda like you should not use the same attorney if you were getting a divorce, it is conflict in interest.

YOU found out about this after the fact, you were blindsided by this, then are now using a MC which was her IC, by suggestion of your WW. Not good.

This is why I suggested that you take a big huge step back, let your WW know that you are stopping all MC and then find your own IC who can help you and you alone with what has happened to you and how you are feeling. You need someone who is only on your side and hears you.

The marriage, if it were to be able to be helped at all, will come later. Right now you need someone who helps you see much more clearly.

Ok... lots to unpack here (thanks for all the comments and advice - its just a lot to process and digest).

Couple of things...

1. WW IC and MC are 2 separate people.
2. I do have my own IC and have been working with him since soon after DDay. Usually I meet with him a few days to a week before MC sessions to help me discuss where I'm at and how I'm going. Unfortunately he is not available this time around as he is taking a (well earned) vacation!
3. I have decided to push back the MC appointment by a few weeks. I am in no position to make any commitments on the future. I need time to work out whether WW is doing R by the numbers, or if she truly is repentant and wants to rebuild things, with me, for the right reasons (and not coz I am "safe" or the better prospect!).
4. Although I consider the A to have gone on for 18 months, in reality it was an EA for most of that time (EA for initial 4-5 months, the PA, then back to EA once covid lockdowns started and we were all confined to our homes for most of 2020.). The timeframe for the PA from first physical encounter to last was exactly 143 days according to the timeline. There were 10 physical sexual encounters during that time. I have the times and dates for all, and has been confirmed and corroborated including with the OBS.
5. OBS contacted me about a month ago to give me the heads up that she and WH were separating before divorcing.

So onto some of the issues you have raised...

1. Why does she think 'Oral sex' etc are bad or repulsive for her? Almost every couple do these things on regular basis without much inhibitions.

This is something that has been discussed extensively, both in MC as well as during my IC sessions to help me unpack the things she has shared. The executive summary is that WW grew up in a very strict religious household, with very firm ideas about sex before marriage (basically - don't do it!). She grew up with the idea that Sex is dirty, dangerous, bad, impure and degrading, so make sure you keep it safe and only give it to your spouse on your wedding night. Good girls don't think about sex -ever-apparently. Outwardly she was a bastion of purity, but internally, she was the usual mess of teenage sexual hormones, thoughts, fantasies and desires for which she has told me since brought her great shame - why couldn't she keep her thoughts pure like the other "good girls"? That side of her had to be pushed down, repressed and tamed apparently. That version of WW was repulsive to her. She basically considered that side of her as "evil" or some bulls--t.

I did not share that kind of upbringing. Coupled with her knowledge that I was not "pure" and that we didn't quite make it to the wedding night meant that sex was a while spiky ball of anxiety for her.

She is working at unpicking that whole mess with her IC, and it was my enquiry as to how that process was going that led to yesterdays lashing out at me. I just want her to be "the whore" apparently. Until she mentioned it, the act of giving a BJ was not part of the conversation.

2. Why did she allow herself to do all those 'bad' or 'repulsive' acts with her AP and continued to do for such a long time? What was so great about him or the affair that she was ready deviate from her regular sexual preferences?

This. Exactly. the WHY. This is what I struggle with the most. WHY? It's not something I feel she has been able to fully articulate in a way I can understand. She says it was the thrill of being chased, pursued. AP was actively pursuing her, and she got off on the full on attention. She says it turned on that part of her she hates, and repulsed her at the same time. The taboo and forbidden nature of it was exciting. My IC suggested that AP and WW both have damaged views of sex and sexuality. Apparently AP saw WW as prim and proper housewife as a challenge, that fed his ego that he could get a woman "like that" to explore her sexual wild side. Apparently she got off on the attention, focus and freedom she felt by letting "her" be in charge.

Which leads me to the next thing. The whole "she/her" thing.

My IC and I have discussed this at length. Basically the way I understand it is that it's a mental crutch, likely introduced to help WW process the A, discuss it with her IC, compile the timeline and confession letter etc. (while snooping I have found a draft of the "confession" in her sent email which referred to She/her, whereas the one I received appeared to have had a find/replace to "I"). My IC says that like any crutch, it's designed to be temporary, and not something fixed. He speculates that WW has internalised that crutch and incorporated that idea into her identity. He calls it a construct or something. I call it bullshit if I'm being unkind (honest?).

IC has been pushing me to push her harder to get rid of the crutch and realize that it was not "some other person existing inside her head", but is part of her. She did this. She was the one who willingly and enthusiastically gave him bjs, hot monkey sex, sexting and naked photos of herself to him while in our house and marital bed and pretty much whatever else he asked of her when they were together. WW did. It was WW body that he was allowed to finish on and in. No matter how "degrading" and "revolting" she now says she finds those things, it was not some other person who took over and engaged and enjoyed them. it was WW. And I'll be damned if I'm going to be accused of being all those things because I want to experience everything with her. I want her to be honest, with herself as much as with me.

I think you can all see where I'm headed with this. If I'm honest, I know where it's going. I just need to work through it to the end. Until she can acknowledge and reconcile between those 2 parts she sees of herself, we cannot move forward with R. And that my friends is where I am in regards to the next MC. Until I see improvement from WW in that area, I'm not committing to anything.

No improvement? The clock is ticking. (I am not one to put all my eggs in one basket, and I have plan B ready to go). I can go into that more in later post if needed.

Wow - another weighty tome. Guess I don't use 3 words when 100 will do!

Naked photos too huh? She really went for the trifecta.

Some of us have been asking what you think you need. Asking her to stay away from you is a good beginning to you figuring that out.

If I were her I’d be demanding repayment from her IC. Her head is definitely not on straight as recent events prove. So sorry that after two years what she really feels comes out.

AspectNorth: Beware of analysis paralysis. All the psychobabble in the world won't change the basic reality that, in the end, she decided and chose to do all of those things, and she decided and chose to do them repeatedly, for a long time, only stopping because external factors prevented her from returning.

Where do you come in all of this? Your wife is the victim here per everything I am reading.

Stop MC and everything thing else until your wife is much further along in IC. You need to get an IC who is not your MC. You need someone to look after you.

R is possible but unlikely if the WS does not have empathy and your wife has none.

It may be worth asking your WW what she is willing to do to 'win' you back.

What will she do to pursue you? To make you feel desirable?

She is now in competition to R with you, as the strong contender is D.

That answer to my second question explains why her affair took place but it still doesn't answer why she pushed/allowed her AP to push her sexual boundaries which she clearly never allowed that to happen in her marriage. Why she allowed her boundaries to be pushed? Did she wanted to push the boundaries? If yes, then why? And Why didn't she push those boundaries with you before? Or she couldn't say 'no' to her AP? If yes, then why?

Did you ever, before her affair behaved in a certain way or said or hinted at something that implied that such sexual acts will be considered as shameful or degrading by you? Or that you preferred status quo? If yes, then I can understand why she chose not to do them with you. (Not blaming you for her affair, though). If not, then I don't understand why she didn't try to explore that side of her with you. Like everyone, she got a wild side, too. If you had implied,before her affair that you don't mind exploring sexuality/sexual boundaries with her, then she should be more than escactic to do so. But instead, she chose AP. Didn't her very religious parents teach her that affair is greater sin than exploring sex before marriage. There is definitely a wild side to her. She doesn't want to suppress herself sexually and that is why she ended up having an affair. Nobody should suppress their sexuality. It's never productive. To make sure this doesn't happen again and especially with the same AP(he has certain hold on her. So, if he comes back, she could fall back),she should own that it was her who did those acts. She should accept it was her who did that, and no, it wasn't a succubus that possessed her and did those things. And she should explore that side with YOU. That is healthy for you, for her, and for your new marriage.

If AP pursuing her, validating her turned her on so much and him lusting for her made her feel desirable like a teenage girl and that is why she gave him everything for free then why does she feel this wrong that you, her husband, expect being validated, desired and lusted by her? Don't your needs are reasonable for a married ?

I also want to add this. All her life, she believed such sexual acts were shameful and bad. By committing adultery and performing those acts during adultery with the AP, she made her belief a reality. Those acts in the end did become shameful,repulsive, and bad. She could be associating those acts with her affair. And if she does those things with you, then that would remind her of the affair, and ultimately, she will feel shame and embarrassment. I can understand her issue here if this is the case. Since this thing could be the result of affair shame, which is always strongest immediately after dday, this should be a temporary thing. She can't and shouldn't do this forever. As the time goes on she should open up to you in everyway, so that you can embrace her in her fullest form.Forever suppressing her sexuality and denying you the sexual fulfillment you desire will never repair your relation and will kill your new marriage with her.

[This message edited by Lurkingsoul12 at 8:00 AM, Thursday, March 16th]

Not sure I can move past this...

I’m not sure I could either.

It’s not just the sex stuff we’ve been bantering around. It’s the profound disrespect of bringing the AP into the sanctity of your home, and then the marital bed, with your nightstand pictures looking on. That’s desecration. That’s malicious disrespect and they got off on it, at your forever agonizing expense.

And then she accuses YOU of throwing it all away over a…blowjob. I’m still tripping balls over that delusional remark.

You’re two years into R and you’re presenting here like a brand new shock-trauma betrayed on the horns of D-day.

It’s not because you’re failing to comply with therapy. It’s not because you’re hung up on petty selfish sexual details. It’s not because you’re unforgiving, unenlightened, stubborn or wallowing in self pity.

It’s because she killed your marriage deader than dirt, disco, doornails, the Dodo, Dogecoin, and Hector and then drug your carcass around behind her chariot for 143 days to MC. It took a pandemic lockdown to end her “trial period” and settle for you.

It is very possible that she will never cheat again. Will that eventually be enough for you?

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 9:46 AM, Thursday, March 16th]

I'm curious about two things.

First, why did she confess to you when she did? Since she was working with a therapist, she had to know that the sexual details would crush you. They would present an insurmountable sense of sexual humiliation and emasculation (though her therapist has also prepped her with trite, deflective comebacks to this, as you have quoted).

Presumably, she could have taken this to her grave and you'd have never known. Or could she? Somewhere in my gut I've been wondering if the OBW was finna reach out to you, but your WW instead asked for an opportunity to tell you herself, so she worked with her therapist to plan and stage that disclosure and, as others have noted, to manage your response in the aftermath. The current structure of moving forward in discreet increments is genius. It repeatedly creates a synthetic horizon that is close enough to feel nominal, which enables you to kick the can down the road just a skosh. The death of a thousand cuts.

Second, why does she wish to remain married to you? Has she articulated any good reason for this? To that end, what actions has she taken since Dday to show you her desire for you? Words are meaningless in this context. Actions speak.

A few other things:

I immediately felt white hot rage builds inside me that even after everything... I believe that the marital bed is exclusively for 2 ppl devoted to the marriage… and she has no right to be there. After some harsh words, she slept on the couch… I barely slept all night setting at what happened… this morning I received an apology, that she wasn’t thinking of AP when she said it.

I know I probably could have handled it better… but I told her she should make up the travel trailer for a few nights so I have a chance to get myself together.

Anger is 100% normal at your stage. Rage. You handle this by expressing it honestly and sincerely.

I have a huge amount of resentment that at least some of the refusals that I experienced from WW during the A were at the urging of AP. He didn't like the idea of her being with me and not him.

Seriously, the degree of sexual insult that she has heaped upon you as a man is insane in your thread. As bad as any I've seen. It is fair to acknowledge to yourself that, sometimes, the sexual humiliation and emasculation is just too much. In the end, regardless of her neurosis about sex, she chose voluntarily to do those things. She's an adult woman who wasn't forced by threats of violence or such. She dumped a bucket of the AP's ordure on your head, at his bidding. It's fair to say you do not wish to remain married to a woman who would choose to do that to you (though, in your case, she is also using the same neurosis as a crutch to explain her failure to invest energy into actions that might result in some healing).

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 2:33 PM, Thursday, March 16th]

I've been lurking for a while reading everyones experience trying to come to grips with my own.

I'm truly sorry that you also found yourself here. After reading your last post a few questions came to mind.

You mention that the AP and OBS are separating and moving towards divorce. If they divorce and you also choose to separate/divorce is there any chance your wife and the AP would reconnect? If so, do you think she would still feel the same revolting shame she has now over those sexual acts where the AP had to settle for "vanilla sex"? Or, do you think he would get what he's already gotten and more?

What would a satisfying sex life look like to you? What would your wife "winning you over" look like?

No improvement? The clock is ticking.

Bravo! I think you've got your head on straight and that you have a good IC.

I also think that a sex therapist is in order.

AspectNorth - You’ve been given a particularly tough pill to swallow. I, personally, don’t think you have to accept it. We often talk here about regardless of whether a couple decides to stay together or not, the act of infidelity destroys the old marriage. Like, it is literally over – it only exists in the history books. If a couple attempts to R, they are literally making the decision to rebuild a new marriage. It is not enough to simply say, "okay back to the way things are, this time with no cheating." That is not a new marriage. That was the same deal you THOUGHT you had signed up for originally – didn’t work so well, did it. Your new marriage can be anything you want it to be. Presumably it involves improved emotional intimacy and some new boundaries in terms of members of the opposite sex. In your case, it makes sense that it also involves a wife that is at least OPEN to exploring sexually with you. If you were to D and were looking for a new partner, isn’t that something that you would be looking for?

I think this is very sound advice if you choose to reconcile. It will be hard for her to argue that she was happy as she spent a year and a half emotionally and sexually rejecting your marriage in pursuit of happiness and satisfaction with her AP. If she didn’t want the old marriage before, why should you? You weren’t totally happy with it either. The difference is you didn’t blow it up.

She wants the old marriage now as she wants to go back to a safe place. My experience here has shown me that even though I can’t understand it, that some marriages actually can come out of infidelity stronger. The caveat being that almost all of these started from a place where the marriage was in trouble to begin with, and in most cases were headed to divorce anyway. I still don’t believe that a strong marriage such as mine could ever be better, or in fact as good.

If you still love her, and agrees to modify her sexual hang ups, you might be able to make it. But as the quote says you need to not look back and try to replicate a shitty situation, but work for a better one.

It's not something I feel she has been able to fully articulate in a way I can understand.

This concerns me, because I believe no WS can explain the 'why' in a way a BS can comprehend. If you're basing much of a decision on your ability to understand why your W cheated, you're dooming yourself to failure.

My reco is t go for acceptance of the cheating. You can't heal without acceptance, and I don't know how to get there faster than you're ready for it (and I don't know what one can do to be 'ready for it').

Acceptance is just that - accepting that your partner cheated. It doesn't imply R or D. JMO, of course.

*****

Another concern is about how to frame R. My reco is to see R as a way to get to a better M, one that serves both of you in the way you want M to serve you and in way that avoid letting your M serve in ways you don't want M to serve. Complex sentence for a simple idea: you want your M after R to include much of wht you want and very little of what you don't want.

One thing I urge you to avoid: getting your old M back - because if you just o back in time, you go to a point at which the A is in your future.

*****

Changing sex from a sin to a delight is not easy work. Your W may or may not ever be able to make that switch. You are free to give her a chance or not, and you can hold your head high either way. Personally, although I'm not leaving my religion, I strongly object to ...um... the place of women in Western religion. I can't help thinking that a lot of ... ** NO RELIGION **.

*****

Your plan B? I hope that's about what you'll do after D or after deciding irrevocably to D, not about what you're doing now - and note that a lot of 'irrevocable decisions to D' get revoked. A new relationship will make you a madhatter if you actually R, and that will make R more difficult. Now ids not a time for a new relationship anyway - you're almost definitely not ready.

Considering what you've said about her formative years..I think your wife enjoyed the sex she had with OM. Very much so. I don't think she did it for the reasons many cheating wives give..which is that they did it to get the ego kibble,and to keep the OM interested.

I think it sounds as if she feels she needs to be viewed a particular way in her marriage,and by her husband. The image of a prude,basically. But,when the opportunity arose, she allowed herself to be free, sexually with another man.

She continues to put these barriers up,because you are her husband, and she won't allow you to see that sexy,enthusiastic, adventurous side of her. She's made it clear that she won't do that with you.

So you need to make a choice. Will you continue to stay married to a woman who hides a huge part of herself from you,and denies you what she freely gave to another man? Or will you tell her you will no longer be married to a woman who won't fully give herself to you?

I think you know what your only option is. You deserve a relationship with a woman who wants to give herself to you,willingly,enthusiastically, and passionately.

[This message edited by HellFire at 4:22 PM, Thursday, March 16th]

I am going to write a different post. I should have read the whole string instead of responding to the first post.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:52 PM, Thursday, March 16th]