SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Regarding the sex thing, now you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that's its not that she doesn't like doing those things, SHE JUST DOESN'T LIKE DOING THEM WITH YOU.

I think that could be an oversimplification. Brains are weird. They're meat with electricity running through them and they do make weird connections. Like I said before, I think she's (maybe subconsciously) equating spicy sex with "bad" and "betrayal," especially since she'd only had sex with H before her A, and it was always vanilla. Vanilla is safe. Spicy is unsafe and scary. Spicy almost caused her to blow up her world. It may take a professional to help her untangle the mess.

I think that could be an oversimplification. Brains are weird. They're meat with electricity running through them and they do make weird connections. Like I said before, I think she's (maybe subconsciously) equating spicy sex with "bad" and "betrayal," especially since she'd only had sex with H before her A, and it was always vanilla. Vanilla is safe. Spicy is unsafe and scary. Spicy almost caused her to blow up her world. It may take a professional to help her untangle the mess.

I think this is so much just trying to lessen the impact of what she did, especially with the added, "she needs help".

I will agree with you on one thing, that being that her brain isn't wanting her to do those things with her BH. But it's bc she just isn't all that into him sexually, and she wants to remain faithful to her boyfriend regarding those other sexual acts.

She sees her husband as the best candidate of the 2 for a lifelong partner, so she'll offer him a lot of bland sex to keep him, bc again, she chose him, he won, she's the prize.

From what AspectNorth said, I'm not picking up what you're putting down. I mean, it's possible, of course, but I think it's also possible that she's trying to protect herself from being triggered into feeling like a slimeball by doing the "bad" things. It works like that on non-loaded things, too. If the first time I ate sushi was with my best friend, I'm going to think of my best friend the next time I eat sushi. We associate things.

She's going to have to work on reclaiming hot sex as something that she shares with her H, or she's probably going to lose him. Like I said in my first response, if my H shared something with the OW that he refused to share with me, that would be a dealbreaker.

Not having a great day here today… WW and I were discussing the upcoming MC session and our feelings regarding the next commitment period. I told her that I was considering refusing to nominate a period, due to the inertia I am feeling over the lack of agency, and my feelings re being denied that was freely offered to AP and the fact that nothing seemed to be changing in this area.

Note that not agreeing to commit means that the next sessions are dedicated to working through the issues preventing progress and until those issues are resolved, no other work is taken on… I feel we have a switched on MC in this respect.

WW became quite upset at this and at one point said "you are gonna throw everything away coz I won’t give you [oral sex]?"… and then the killer "all you guys are the same… everything is about sex!"

I immediately felt white hot rage builds inside me that even after everything, I was still clearly being casually compared to AP…. I told her I was too upset to share a bed with her, and she had to move out until we can work through this. I believe that the marital bed is exclusively for 2 ppl devoted to the marriage… and she has no right to be there. After some harsh words, she slept on the couch… I barely slept all night setting at what happened… this morning I received an apology, that she wasn’t thinking of AP when she said it.

I know I probably could have handled it better… but I told her she should make up the travel trailer for a few nights so I have a chance to get myself together.

I have read through all of your replies. You have articulated so much of what has been rattling around in my head for a while now. Damnit… more work to do….

Thanks for reading.. it helps knowing others perspectives in all this.

you are gonna throw everything away

I could be way off base here but I find that particular statement very troubling. Not because of the sex; it would seem to imply that she really has no idea the kind of wound she inflicted upon you. That it would somehow be your fault if the marriage fails. Not because of her cheating but because you’re obsessed with sex.

I agree with ff--her statement gave you an idea of where her mindset is at....even if it is for a brief period. She literally put the success/failure of the marriage on YOUR shoulders.

She knows she has wounded me and our family deeply and takes full ownership of everything. Basically, she is more than doing the work.

From your first post. Sometimes, we either want to see something in a certain light, or a person can show you....through that one moment of frustration....that their mindset is NOT where they are acting like it is.

On the flip side, getting out of infidelity is not linear. As you can see, it only takes a couple of ill-formed sentences to have a devastating effect. Hopefully, she will learn from this, and do some more introspection.

This was for 18 mos. Not just a couple times sneaking into a motel room (and BTW that is bad too).

This was a choice for 18 mos. of giving herself to another man. Not just the sex, but her time and attention and emotions. I don't care what anyone says, that is a relationship. Be it behind your back and sneaking around, that took ALOT of planning and lies to make that happen.

I 100% agree with you that you have been manipulated into staying in the marriage.

But something Bigger said is true and he always tries to stress this to any BS, you have the CHOICE to not stay as well. Even though it does not feel that way. You have the choice to try to get out of infidelity. And that is not just about trying to stay in a marriage where you have been stabbed in the back, robbed of any of your feelings and what you want.... and affairs are always about the sex, whether it is good sex or bad sex or whatever it is, its always about someone wanting sex..... but its really about how easily she lied to you, FOR MONTHS. And now supposedly does not want to disclose certain things as that makes her feel bad. That's also a problem as it is called conflict avoidance. That's a huge problem as well. So you now have to sit there and figure out how in the hell to get out of this situation.

You have been put in a horrible position, finding out that you have been robbed behind your back so to speak, then sitting there and having to swallow it to stay in a marriage you "thought" was happy but finding out it was not is just painful. And then on top of it you are made to feel like you get the back up booby prize.

**Edited to add, I would suggest that you find your own IC if you have not already, I would not be participating in MC at this point, your WS feels that she is somehow controlling the narrative on all of this, trying to somehow "manage" it and has not even remotely realized what this has done to you. I think speaking with your own independent therapist to help you work out how you are feeling is a must.

Please remember that you are someone who deserves happiness, which ever way you choose.

[This message edited by realitybites at 1:27 PM, Wednesday, March 15th]

Like you, my EX entered into an affair that was highly sexual and involved acts that we either didn’t do, or did very very rarely as that particular act was not pleasurable to her. Yet, in the few weeks she did it more with him than we had done in 25 years. This was among other things that are more detailed in my profile.

She did offer them up, but I wanted no part of it. I told her now that he has stretched you out, I get my turn? Forget it. But at least she did offer it up. This however was something that I do believe before he got her used to it, was uncomfortable. She wasn’t faking that. This is a far cry from giving a bj which though may be different than what she is used to, is not painful. When I first read your post I was thinking of the usual push the limits stuff like anal, facials, 3 somes, etc. I am shocked that she considers giving you oral as something that she won’t do.

I got the same lines. It wasn’t the real me doing these things. In a way that was true. I knew this woman for over 28 years and it was almost like a psychotic break, and we had that looked into. I also believe that by the time she got caught she didn’t like it, and was looking for a way out. But her affair was a few weeks. Your wife did this for a year and a half. If she didn’t like it, she wouldn’t have gone back the number of times she did over the 18 months. She, unlike my EX, had to have formed some sort of emotional attachment. As for her refusing you, but being an enthusiastic lover for him, I call bullshit.

I don’t doubt that the sex you want may bring back uncomfortable feelings. But as far as going through those, Buck up and get the fuck over them. We all do things that are uncomfortable, but have to be done. This may remind her of what she did, so her logic is to spare her feelings of discomfort by refusing. Yet the fact every time you have sex when she doesn’t do those things you are reminded about how much she worked to please her lover, yet won’t lift a finger for you. She at this point should be putting her feelings aside to make you feel better about yourself and her, yet she has gone the opposite route by this refusal. And to reiterate, giving your husband oral sex is about as mainstream as any other sexual act.

I am mixed on how she handled it. You are definitely being managed here. The preparation that she and the IC went through was like a presentation to pitch a client. Yet it probably helped in that they covered all the bases of what you needed to know. You were spared the dreaded trickle truth. So in that sense it was effective. The question is are you still being managed? Do you think her and the IC have plotted out how the rest of this goes? It feels to me like a plan where they have thought out, he will do this, and I will do this, then he will do this etc. Now you have gone off script with not conceding to the next reconciliation period it will be interesting to see how she reacts. If I were you, I would be a bit unpredictable. Not to the detriment of what you want, but to get out of this managed situation.

Bottom line is her refusing these acts, which are not unreasonable, is still putting herself ahead of you. She needs to Buck up and do the things that might be hard or uncomfortable. The next timeline event should be for 18 months she will give you what she gave him, and you can reevaluate after that

One suggestion:
So far it sounds like the MC has set out timelines that you have to commit to. Sort of like "in the next 2 months we are going to deal with this marital issue and then evaluate where we are, and during that time neither W nor H will divorce."
Since your wife doesn’t seem to have doubts about the marriage then that’s fine for her.

Well… How about turning things around?
How about YOU setting a timeline:
"It’s not been XX months since d-day and YY months of MC and I am still not convinced this is worth saving. These are the emotions and doubts I’m experiencing. I give you 2 months to convince me otherwise, but if that doesn’t work out then I will focus on how I get out of infidelity – without you."

I too was expecting this:

When I first read your post I was thinking of the usual push the limits stuff like anal, facials, 3 somes, etc. I am shocked that she considers giving you oral as something that she won’t do.

When you first posted. It's very common for the AP to want something painful and humiliating from a WS. It's common for the WS to decide that they don't like it after the ego kibbles wear off and struggle to end it. But I really don't see your situation as being the same as WWTL's which is the more common kind we see around here.

AN, OS IS vanilla. Keeping the lights on, changing positions, and making some noise IS vanilla. I don't discount SacredSoulSister's idea at all. I think it explains why your WW is reluctant to explore things with you now. It's also possible that at the time of the A, she also wasn't that sexually attracted to you. Maybe even well before too. Both can be true.

You seem unsure if she regularly orgasms during sex. Let me tell you as a woman - it can be completely silent but there's no denying the involuntary muscle spasms that happen. It would be pretty hard for you to miss those. Maybe you wouldn't notice every time but do YOU think she orgasms consistently? Has she ever initiated sex? Ever wanted to just keep the lights on and see you during sex? Has your sex life always been this cold and dutiful or has it declined to this point? It might be helpful to examine this further. If your SL was always this way, then I'd have to question if she was ever that into you and a lack of attraction has always been issue. That may not be fixable. If it was a decline into complacency, you might have something with work with if she is willing to work on it.

For what it's worth, there's a vast spectrum between what you have now, what may be acceptable to you without pushing too many of her boundaries, and the kind of sex we typically hear about in these situations. For instance, if she won't do OS right now, would she at least initiate and get on top? Would she plan sending the kids out for a night and wear some lingerie? Would she spend an hour making it all about you and what feels good even without PIV? What can SHE do within her comfort range right now to prove that she wants this and may be open to more when she works through some of the shame? I can't answer for you but I have to wonder if maybe you would not be posting here about it if she was doing any of the above instead of giving you a buffet of more of the same kind of sex that sounds about as sexy as a wet paper bag.

And I'd like you to know - I would not R if my WS gave me the same offer that your WW did. I would never accept the WS doing something for AP that they would not do for me. It could even be as little as letting AP borrow a pen or as big as what you are dealing with. Make no mistake - it is not shallow for this to be a deal breaker for you. You deserve a good SL in your new marriage with her and what you have described, even outside of what she did with AP, isn't acceptable. If she's willing to let the marriage go because she can't even show a little passion and turn the lights on for once, that says far more about her and how she views your marriage than it does about you.

I'm guessing you try very hard not to loose you cool when having a discussion or arguing. Rather than let your anger show, you stuff it down, regain your composure, and try to be logical.

I'm going to suggest that in this situation, it might be better to let the rage rear it ugly head a little. Let you WW see how upset you are. Rant, scream, caller her every ugly name you've held back. Let her know how discussed you feel about her, how f**k up her "vanilla sex" situation is. Stop short of physical reactions like breaking things.

I tried to argue rationally with my WW. She wasn't a rational fighter. Her mind was focused on scoring points in an argument. Logic didn't matter to her, it was all about saying something that would "win" the argument. She would turn every logic expression of my pain into an emotional bullet and fire them right back at me.

It wasn't until I finally lost it, that she understood the damage she had done. I let my rage say what my logic mind couldn't express.

I completely agree with WWTDL and Bigger that you are clearly being "managed" by your WW and her IC. You need to make it clear to them that you need time to consider whether you even want to consider R and under the conditions that would need to be met for that to even possible. All of this will happen on your time frame and according to your terms, not hers. She has made enough decisions on your behalf without your buy-in.

While others have speculated that your wife's complete lack of inhibitions with OM is indicative of more enthusiasm and desire for him, I also think the restraint that she shows and the barriers to intimacy that she puts up in the bedroom with you are based on a need to control you and, perhaps, the marriage as a whole.

Just as she is unilaterally deciding the time frame and the process of your reconciliation, she has set the terms of your sex life without any consideration for your needs and desires. I think the best course of action you can take going forward is to take back your power and assert your agency... you will need both whether you successfully reconcile or decide to divorce.

WW became quite upset at this and at one point said "you are gonna throw everything away coz I won’t give you [oral sex]?"… and then the killer "all you guys are the same… everything is about sex!"

I'd be mighty tempted to respond with "YOU threw everything away when you gave someone other than me oral sex. Own your sh*t, woman."

She's clearly got some hang-ups about sex. Whether it's in general or just with you remains to be sussed out.

I know I probably could have handled it better… but I told her she should make up the travel trailer for a few nights so I have a chance to get myself together.

Good. I think you need to sit with this without her in your face controlling the process. She's running the show. She's running your show. Take back your power.

Note that not agreeing to commit means that the next sessions are dedicated to working through the issues preventing progress and until those issues are resolved, no other work is taken on… I feel we have a switched on MC in this respect.

Have you considered that you don't have to go to MC with her? You could call a moratorium on it until you've had a chance to figure out what you want to do. Individually. You. Not you as part of the couple.

Well… How about turning things around?
How about YOU setting a timeline:
"It’s not been XX months since d-day and YY months of MC and I am still not convinced this is worth saving. These are the emotions and doubts I’m experiencing. I give you 2 months to convince me otherwise, but if that doesn’t work out then I will focus on how I get out of infidelity – without you."

Great suggestion!

Have you considered that you don't have to go to MC with her? You could call a moratorium on it until you've had a chance to figure out what you want to do. Individually. You. Not you as part of the couple.

Agreed. Instead of MC, get yourself an IC... someone who will give you advice based on what's in your best interest, not the marriage.

WW became quite upset at this and at one point said "you are gonna throw everything away coz I won’t give you [oral sex]?"… and then the killer "all you guys are the same… everything is about sex!"

The bottom line here appears to be that you don't want the same things sexually. Although, I can understand your emotional reaction to what she said above, I don't understand why her feelings are immediately discarded as invalid. From her perspective, that's what it looks like, like men want sex from her and don't particularly care much how she feels about it. You told us in your opening post the reasons she has given you for her stance, but apparently those reasons don't work for you because they aren't achieving your sexual goals. At a certain point, a person needs to figure out what their priorities are. If blowjobs are the priority, why continue on with someone who isn't authentically interested in doing that?

You can go to MC and you can pressure her to change her mind, and who knows? maybe you'll get your way. But it's going to be because she wants to keep her marriage and NOT because she gets off on giving blowjobs. She's already told you that she doesn't enjoy it. You'd be coercing her into a sexual activity that she doesn't legitimately want in exchange for the continuation of the marriage. Your relationship becomes transactional at that point.

I think your best bet here would be to pull the plug. If this issue is a priority to the extent that it's holding up R, I don't see it as resolvable. Personally, I didn't want the person who was doing the role playing that my fWH had become. He slipped into this weird persona and played different characters with different OWs. All those characters were loathsome in my eyes. If he hadn't been able to find again the sweet boy I married and bring him back out, I'd have followed my first impulse and divorced him with alacrity. IME, WS's twist themselves up like pretzels trying to fit into whatever shape will best suit their goals of outside validation and dopamine band-aids. It's not healthy. I wanted a healthy partner or none at all.

you are gonna throw everything away coz I won’t give you [oral sex]?"…

Sorry, easy low hanging fruit here, but this statement for obvious reasons.

The sex questions we’re all speculating on, the answers are in her head. If she wants to truly, authentically, wholistically reconcile, she needs to explore this with you. This depth of disclosure, this level of opening herself up, making herself vulnerable to you with her innermost secrets, is called intimacy. This level of emotional intimacy is extremely binding. This level of emotional intimacy can be exclusive to you, and only you. We’re talking virginal territory. Where she allows you deeper into her mind, than any other man.

This should trump a blowjob in the intimacy department any day.

This is the level of sacrifice she’s got to be willing to make if she’s serious about rebuilding your relationship on a foundation of something exclusively special and uncorrupted. She’s got to go to emotional intimacy extents never before offered a man.

Then, THEN the physical intimacy extents should improve proportionately.

But, she won’t achieve this in her current defensive closed off state with therapist endorsed boundaries and off limits subject matter.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 5:05 PM, Wednesday, March 15th]

AspectNorth, you have absolutely every right to be furious at your wife for what happened last night.

To respond to your WW: You are not throwing it away for the reason that she won't give you a BJ, you are instead throwing it away because your WW gave blowjobs and who knows what else to AP.

It feels to me that your WW does not love you truly, instead, she had her fun with AP and now she wants the safety and respectability of marriage. That is where *you* come in, Bub. Not a good place to be indeed. (I bring this up even though you probably don't want to read this, because I STRONGLY suspect that your subconscious--and maybe your conscious mind too--is already WELL aware of this.)

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 5:30 PM, Wednesday, March 15th]

A big giant "AMEN!" to what Reality Blows said.

It is like your wife does not get how much it hurts you that she had sex with someone else. That alone is devastating. To give him acts she denies you compounds the pain that is already at 11. She just does not get it. The IC really needs to help her understand that.

That fact will never change. I don't know how it can ever be accepted, but some people have. I would not want my partner to do sexual things with me that they were not into. It would feel strained, uncomfortable and like I was abusing them. That is the conundrum.

I hate, hate, hate the you won line. Like she was the prize. I have heard this line used since I was young. I hated the context it was used in then. It was like the wayward had decided to test you both and you scored higher so here is your prize - live with it and be thankful. It seems like the same context in your case. She compared you both and diced her best future was with you. Now you have to decide if your best future is with her. It is understandable that it is very difficult to stay with her, and doubly so when she just does not get it.

Sooner or later you will have to decide which path is likely to lead to you being happy. You have every reason to end this relationship if that is what is best for you. If you stay, I hope she gets her act together and fully supports your healing. If you leave, that is ok too - sometimes the damage is to great to overcome.