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You said initially she was angry at the OBS for not letting the affair die. Do you think she's angry with you,for the same reason? Forget about what she tells you. Do you think,deep down, that's how she feels?

Also, it was mentioned above that she uses your love for her,to manipulate you. You questioned that. I think you are in denial. I think its obvious to nearly everyone who has read your threads that she does this.

Another update.

We had a good evening last night, despite the town gossip. We took a bath, had sex and discussed our upcoming vacation to Charleston.

I had a good sleep and decided to work with my phone from bed--I'm fighting off a bit of a cold from my weekend with my friends (one of them was sick from his kids)--so I decided to skip the gym.

At around 9:30 a.m. my WW came back upstairs (we're both working from home today) and she laughed that I was still in bed. I joked that she should join me and I pulled her back in. I got one of those familiar vibes that maybe she wasn't in the mood, so I disengaged--it's hard to describe, but it may be an important nuance, so I'll try.

Everyone is familiar with when a girl feigns refusal, but really wants to continue: genuine giggling and happiness, but saying things like "we can't now; the kids are downstairs!" My WW will sometimes do the opposite, where she'll say she wants to do it, but her body language and happiness seems inauthentic--a fake smile. I detected the latter and I'm now highly sensitive to treading sexual waters if there's any sign of trouble.

My WW likely recognized the cause of my hesitation, so she doubled down--she stripped off her cloths and began to get sexually aggressive. I caved quickly, assuming I just misread her initial reaction. Our hands roamed and we began to play with each other--mild dirty talk that led to me asking her for oral sex (as I'm writing this, I recognize the irony of the hypothetical I proposed yesterday). She complied and in less than 10 minutes I finished.

*Immediately* upon my orgasm, she looked up at me visibly angry.

I asked if I could take care of her now (I had started to play with her during the hookup, but I didn't have a good angle).

She snapped back: "I did not enjoy that."

I almost wanted to laugh it was so absurd and she clearly saw my shock.

She quickly recognized what she did and went into a panic. She started to apologize and said that she just meant she wasn't in the mood for me to play with her, but that she was glad she could please me, and that she didn't mean for the comment to be hurtful, etc.

I told her that it was all bull shit and she said the comment with malice. She wanted me to feel badly in that moment because she clearly felt like she was compelled to do something she didn't want to do--she can't help herself.

It's like we're living two different realities. In my mind, I'm having a fun morning with my wife; in her mind she's being forced into a sexual situation she doesn't want to be in--and I'm largely oblivious to how she feels in the moment. In retrospect, I'm not sure what I could have done differently aside from sprint out of the room when she took off her clothing.

So now what?

On one hand, she clearly broke my boundary and intentionally hurt me (in a sexual situation no less). The consequence for that action was set as her moving out.

On the other hand, it was relatively tame and I'd be lying if I pretended that I was terribly hurt right now. Unlike in past instances, she didn't double down--she immediately recognized what she did and apologized. It all happened lighting quick. I'm upset now not because of her trying to make me feel bad after sex, but because she is incapable of preventing herself from doing that.

A part of me wants to cancel the vacation and tell her to go look at apartments--just cut all this toxic shit from my life. Another part of me thinks that would be punitive at this point; like I was just looking for an excuse to get to this point. Three weeks ago, she viscously argued with me for 10 minutes after the sex incident; this time it only lasted 2-3 seconds before she realized what she did. Is that progress?

Objectively, I recognize that my head is not clear right now. My gut tells me the right course of action is to wait for MC tomorrow and hash this out then--it'll give me a day to sleep on it and it will still leave me with enough time to cancel the trip if that's where things land.

You said initially she was angry at the OBS for not letting the affair die. Do you think she's angry with you,for the same reason? Forget about what she tells you. Do you think,deep down, that's how she feels?

Yes, I think she struggles with that. She knows she *shouldn't* feel that way though, so she quickly corrects it and lets it go.

Also, it was mentioned above that she uses your love for her,to manipulate you. You questioned that. I think you are in denial. I think its obvious to nearly everyone who has read your threads that she does this.

It's just that I don't see it--perhaps that is denial. I'm not opposed to that being true though.

What I mean by that is you could tell an alcoholic he/she is an alcoholic and he/she will deny it--but that's because he/she doesn't want to face the consequences of being an alcoholic (drinking less). In my case, if my WW is manipulating me because of my love for her, I want to know that; I'm not running from that possibility. I quite honesty just don't see it.

Some people (actually a fair amount of people) don't change. That's it. They are who they are, they don't change. No amount of wishful thinking, analyzing to death their behaviors, or hoping they get smacked with the reality stick and see how they hurt us is going to do any ACTUAL good for someone who is not.going.to.change.

If the current state of how your relationship is is something you can make peace with then you might have to do that and that might just be it for you guys...a chaotic up and down relationship filled with sexual drama and waves of hurt.

I've said this before, I had to give myself that very same dose of reality pill. Look at how things are as they REALLY are...not has I hope they'd be, not has I THINK he could change to be, not wishfully hoping if only he put in the work and saw how he hurt me. You can't be married potential. You can't be married changed.

Even when I said that's it, it's over. Guess what? HE STILL DIDN'T CHANGE. He never stopped with the AP, he never was honest and transparent to keep me... Some people do not change, they don't want to and are not capable of it. It's a big pill to swallow to come to terms with the person WE love does not necessarily love us back.

On one hand, she clearly broke my boundary and intentionally hurt me (in a sexual situation no less). The consequence for that action was set as her moving out.

Yes. It really is that simple. You should not even be considering going on a vacation with her. Not even for half a second. That would be absolutely absurd.

Unless there is something you're not telling us, like physically forcing her, she 100000% broke your stated boundary with basically no hesitation.

If she was feeling the way you feel, she would be thrilled to make you happy and connect. You want that so badly you are letting her continue to stomp on your boundaries and your feelings while remaining full of hopium that she isn't actually mean. If she felt the way you hope she does, she wouldn't have these gut reactions of disgust and lash out to hurt you. Stop letting her do that to you. You already know what the MC is going to say. She already knows your wife can't (wont) stop herself and will continue to be abusive. She told you both this already. You also know this but don't want it to be true.

[This message edited by clouds777 at 5:56 PM, Tuesday, August 23rd]

Some people (actually a fair amount of people) don't change. That's it. They are who they are, they don't change. No amount of wishful thinking, analyzing to death their behaviors, or hoping they get smacked with the reality stick and see how they hurt us is going to do any ACTUAL good for someone who is not.going.to.change.

This. Exactly this.
We had a rescue dog years ago who was extremely aggressive. He was broken by his previous owner.
One day he bit me for no reason. I obviously attributed this to his past and I moved on from it. I got him some good training and showered him with care and love, just as we did with all our rescue animals. We made them feel safe again and created a happy home for them.
He seemed to change a lot and was such a happy dog. His aggression subsided. But he never stopped with the biting. Little nips out of nowhere.

Your situation with your wife reminds me of that dog. She snaps out of nowhere and for seemingly no reason. She can't help herself. She's broken.
You have been complaining since day one that she makes your sex life miserable when she pulls that shit immediately after you do it. You have gone back and forth and proposed consequences for her actions, but here you are again on the verge of letting it slide.

Unfortunately, your wife will not go all the way with reconciliation. It will never stick. She will never learn.
She MAY be able to control her outbursts and apologise immediately instead of arguing about it, as you've seen, but the malicious thoughts going through her head won't change. If the malicious thoughts are there but she's burying them so there's no outburst, resentment will build.

At the end of the day, do you want to police your wife forever? Emotionally, sexually? You're wasting the rest of your life trying to fix her when you could be starting a new happy life.

I apologize to anyone with Tourette’s syndrome but her behavior really does remind me of someone who does not have the ability to stop what comes out of their mouth. She has absolutely no control over her resentment of you. It’s in everything she does. I’m beginning to think you might pull back and talk about separation. Being away from her for several months will give you the opportunity to see whether or not you want to stay married to her. It also gives her the chance to get away from what is obviously a very strong reaction to you. I’m also going to guess that you manipulate things just like she does and it’s not healthy for either of you. Getting your basic needs met should not be this hard. I never turned my husband down but one time and I really just did not feel good. Sex to me is a bonding that you do with someone you love. It should never be done with resentment and if it is there is a hell of a lot underneath the surface that is not being discussed.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 7:10 PM, Tuesday, August 23rd]

Some people (actually a fair amount of people) don't change. That's it. They are who they are, they don't change. No amount of wishful thinking, analyzing to death their behaviors, or hoping they get smacked with the reality stick and see how they hurt us is going to do any ACTUAL good for someone who is not.going.to.change.

That seems to be the likelihood.

Yes. It really is that simple. You should not even be considering going on a vacation with her. Not even for half a second. That would be absolutely absurd.

I checked with the hotel--no cancellations within 72 hours. Not ideal.

Unless there is something you're not telling us, like physically forcing her, she 100000% broke your stated boundary with basically no hesitation.

I don't know you and you don't know me, but you casually suggesting that could have raped my wife is a bit hard to process, so I'll leave it alone.

If she was feeling the way you feel, she would be thrilled to make you happy and connect. You want that so badly you are letting her continue to stomp on your boundaries and your feelings while remaining full of hopium that she isn't actually mean. If she felt the way you hope she does, she wouldn't have these gut reactions of disgust and lash out to hurt you. Stop letting her do that to you. You already know what the MC is going to say. She already knows your wife can't (wont) stop herself and will continue to be abusive. She told you both this already. You also know this but don't want it to be true.

Yes, that's precisely it. In her mind, her fuck up this morning was her people pleasing. She didn't want to fool around, but she did because she knew I wanted to. Her solution is that she needed a better boundary to avoid the sexual situation. That's all well and good, but it has nothing to do with my concern.

*Why* doesn't she want to make me happy and connect with me?

And then further, once she commits to the act--for whatever reason, people pleasing or otherwise--how is it possible that she can't get out of it without intentionally making me feel bad?

And in the past, it was always about something else--she was angry or resentful with me for something and let it out through sex--but this time she claims it was as simple as her just not being in the mood for sex. I don't know if that's better or worse, but I'm exhausted from examining these absurd situations.

At this point, without the ability to cancel the trip, there's no reason not to just wait for MC tomorrow to sort through next steps. You're right that the MC will certainly suggest a separation and I currently can't muster an argument against it. We quite literally just discussed this boundary in great detail for three weeks and she broke it virtually immediately.

My WW has IC right now, but she'll likely be too emotional for it to be of any help.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 8:48 PM, Tuesday, August 23rd]

She MAY be able to control her outbursts and apologise immediately instead of arguing about it, as you've seen, but the malicious thoughts going through her head won't change. If the malicious thoughts are there but she's burying them so there's no outburst, resentment will build.

Agreed. Even if she learns to modify her behavior, I'm just inviting more resentment to deal with. She claims this morning she wasn't mad at me or resentful, but she visibly was angry--I saw it. She's just in panic mode trying to minimize it.

And again, I also accept it wasn't the end of the world--it just is impossible for me to comprehend how little self-control she has.

I apologize to anyone with Tourette’s syndrome but her behavior really does remind me of someone who does not have the ability to stop what comes out of their mouth.

It's not even what comes out of her mouth--I saw the look in her eyes. In fact, she denies that she said, "I didn't enjoy that," but doesn't recall what she said. What we can agree on is that she was angry in that moment. That's the issue.

She has absolutely no control over her resentment of you. It’s in everything she does. I’m beginning to think you might pull back and talk about separation. Being away from her for several months will give you the opportunity to see whether or not you want to stay married to her. It also gives her the chance to get away from what is obviously a very strong reaction to you.

Well I think that needs to be the discussion now. Forget loving me; she seemingly struggles to tolerate me at times. All the while trying to fight against her feelings.

I’m also going to guess that you manipulate things just like she does and it’s not healthy for either of you.

Why are you assuming that and what are you referring to? I'm open to being wrong here, but I feel like I'm incredibly transparent. I don't think I manipulate her in the slightest, especially now--everything from me is face up on the table.

Getting your basic needs met should not be this hard. I never turned my husband down but one time and I really just did not feel good. Sex to me is a bonding that you do with someone you love. It should never be done with resentment and if it is there is a hell of a lot underneath the surface that is not being discussed.

And that's really it. Plenty of people are having casual sexual encounters without drama. I feel gas-lit to the point where I'm now constantly wondering what her mood is and how sex should go, etc. And I'm still unable to protect myself.

People use the word manipulation as a negative. We manipulate our environment from the minute we are born until we die. We try to get people to like us, we try to get people to love us, we try to get our way. Human beings are multi faceted people and we are sometimes have some good thoughts and some bad thoughts and that just makes us human.
My suggestion was that without meaning to you set up situations where she’s going to react the way she does or she sets up situation where you are going to react to that the way you do and no One wins. There’s a book you need to read called games people play. It’s old but very good I don’t know if I’ve suggested it in the past I have not gone back and read my comments. I do recommend folks read it. It has lots of scenarios in there and you might find one that fits you I don’t know.
The main thing for me is to look at is any relationship and think about how much you are getting out of it. If you’re not getting anything except bad vibes and sadness and irritability and resentment then it’s not the right place for you. The best thing in the world to ask yourself is what am I going feel like about her in a year in five years and 10 years in 20 years. If that’s your life it’s hell on earth. If she loves you, genuinely loves you she should not resent having sex with you and if she does then something is so screwed up and you can’t fix it because it’s coming from her. If this is how she does in relationships even if she remarries the husband’s going to get the same treatment. I hate to say this because it sounds so simplified but hers is a child saying you can’t tell me what to do.

She said it because she meant it. Period. Point blank.

She slipped up. She let her true feelings out. Then saw your response,and immediately went into CYA(cover your ass) mode.

She's pretending. Otherwise these little slips wouldn't keep happening.

So. She said it. In bed. With malice. You told her,and us, that was a hard boundary. If she did it again you were done. So..now what? I see you...again..making excuses..saying it was better than before because this time she apologized quicker than last time. The problem is,it shouldn't keep happening.

You set a boundary. You drew a line in the sand. Are you now moving that line? And,if you do,what does that tell her? It tells her you can't adhere to your boundary, so why should she. It teaches her that there really isn't a boundary..because you will alter it to justify why you stay.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:37 PM, Tuesday, August 23rd]

Dr. Is his own biggest obstacle right now.

Dr. In this moment you have an opportunity to change the trajectory of this relationship with your wife. However, you refuse to take a strong stance and continue to allow her to disregard your boundaries and feelings.

You keep moving the target closer to her with every misstep. You continue to minimize her poor behavior as a result, she is becoming a pro at reading you. Bottom line, she has no real incentive to do anything different. I get the feeling she is simply riding this out until you level out.

You don't seem to be able to move past this point, and I'm not sure why.

What do you fear most?

People use the word manipulation as a negative. We manipulate our environment from the minute we are born until we die. We try to get people to like us, we try to get people to love us, we try to get our way. Human beings are multi faceted people and we are sometimes have some good thoughts and some bad thoughts and that just makes us human.

My suggestion was that without meaning to you set up situations where she’s going to react the way she does or she sets up situation where you are going to react to that the way you do and no One wins.

I'll give it more thought. I don't doubt that's generally true, but I don't feel that I'm doing that.

There’s a book you need to read called games people play. It’s old but very good I don’t know if I’ve suggested it in the past I have not gone back and read my comments. I do recommend folks read it. It has lots of scenarios in there and you might find one that fits you I don’t know.

I'm reading it now actually, but I have been reading it in small doses--it's dense with a lot to process.

The main thing for me is to look at is any relationship and think about how much you are getting out of it. If you’re not getting anything except bad vibes and sadness and irritability and resentment then it’s not the right place for you.

Well it's become volatile, clearly. The obvious difference is me, not her--she is behaving the same and I'm now calling her out for it.

I suspect this is a big moment and I have a lot to think about.

The best thing in the world to ask yourself is what am I going feel like about her in a year in five years and 10 years in 20 years.

I've posed that question to myself often these last five months: what would I think about my WW post-D? I suspect the answer would be fairly simple--I'll love and respect her as the mother of my children, but recognize that we were incompatible. Essentially, I suspect it would be on good terms. Of course, that discounts her potential behavior during a separation. Nothing about her personality suggests to me that she would separate gracefully.

If she loves you, genuinely loves you she should not resent having sex with you and if she does then something is so screwed up and you can’t fix it because it’s coming from her. If this is how she does in relationships even if she remarries the husband’s going to get the same treatment. I hate to say this because it sounds so simplified but hers is a child saying you can’t tell me what to do.

That's my sadness now. She's broken. The way she processes everything is bizarre. It's not just a difference of opinion--it's on her.

All I'm looking for from her now is to demonstrate love for me. She can't do it. Incapable of it. I can't put into words how horrific that feels. It's worse than her just not loving me. It's her telling me she wants to love me and failing at it through the simplest tasks.

There's a part of me that recognizes this would have been so much simpler had she tried to run off with AP. Knowing myself, I'd likely be over her by now--that's one area I've never struggled with in the past--but her desire to R has left me feeling attached to this sinking ship. It's weighing me with tremendous guilt because her having sex with another man isn't enough for me to hurt my children; but her repeated display of no love for me is a life I strongly don't want to live.

And it's all so stupid. I'm writing all of this about a blowjob. It's objectively pathetic.

The way your wife reacted to the sexual situation sounds like disgust. I too think she is pretending to get you to level out and is in cover her ass mode. It does seem like she is very detached from you, either still from the A and cannot find her way back. I'm sure it is confusing to her but is awful for you. It reminds me of how I reacted sexually with my xWS. I was and am completely repulsed by him since his A's. I couldn't find my way back to him to connect sexually or back in love. I wonder if she is in fact telling you the truth that she feels love for you again, this feels like detachment and out of love.

I checked with the hotel--no cancellations within 72 hours. Not ideal.

From what you shared, you can take the financial hit of paying for a hotel you don't stay in. Or let her go alone. No cancellation hardly seems like a reason to go on a trip with your abusive wife, especially since you don't seem to be in dire straits.

I was not insinuating rape. I was saying that unless you are not sharing something important, she deliberately and without hesitation broke your boundary. Full stop. She had no reason not to communicate her feelings to you and no reason to fear turning you down. She made the choice to be physical with you and she also made the choice to express disgust immediately after. She wanted you to FEEL like you forced her and know that she was disgusted. This is literally EXACTLY what you told her you would not tolerate. But you are considering tolerating it because you can't cancel the hotel? You are worth more than that.

Your next step is to follow through with the stated consequence. There really isn't anything to think about here. You set a boundary. She broke it almost immediately and now its time to move forward with the predetermined outcome of her choice.

She KNEW this choice would hurt you. She KNEW the boundary you set. She still hurt you and did it on purpose. So going on a trip with her because there is no cancellation seems like you want to punish yourself for something you didn't do.

This is why so many say you must be willing to lose the marriage to save it. And why everyone advises you set the boundaries and consequences ahead of time so you do not have to question what to do when your partner breaks them.

You set the boundary and consequence at a time that you were calm. Now you are not calm because you are hurt and scared. It doesn't change what you decided before and you should trust yourself and stick to it.

[This message edited by clouds777 at 9:59 PM, Tuesday, August 23rd]

So. She said it. In bed. With malice. You told her,and us, that was a hard boundary. If she did it again you were done. So..now what? I see you...again..making excuses..saying it was better than before because this time she apologized quicker than last time. The problem is,it shouldn't keep happening.

You set a boundary. You drew a line in the sand. Are you now moving that line? And,if you do,what does that tell her? It tells her you can't adhere to your boundary, so why should she. It teaches her that there really isn't a boundary..because you will alter it to justify why you stay.

Understood and agreed.

I suppose what I'm now doing is processing it all.

What do you fear most?

The same thing I've feared since DDay: hurting my children. We've discussed it at length and I need to be at a point where I feel there is no avoiding the toxicity of the relationship with my WW, thus I had no choice but to hurt them as it is a lesser of two evils. Perhaps I'm now at that point.

The way your wife reacted to the sexual situation sounds like disgust.

That's what I observed.

I too think she is pretending to get you to level out and is in cover her ass mode. It does seem like she is very detached from you, either still from the A and cannot find her way back. I'm sure it is confusing to her but is awful for you.

I find her largely not detached from me--she's been more caring and connected with me than she has in a year or so. Obviously the situation this morning was very detached though--I'm not sure where it came from. The last incident there was the obvious issue with her parents; this time I'm not sure. The only deep-seated thing I can think of would be if she's angry with me now for forcing her hand to tell OBS. That seems in line with her victim-mentality and is perfectly plausible, but she hasn't said that. But even if I figure out what the issue is, it won't matter--there's no justification for how she behaves.

It reminds me of how I reacted sexually with my xWS. I was and am completely repulsed by him since his A's. I couldn't find my way back to him to connect sexually or back in love. I wonder if she is in fact telling you the truth that she feels love for you again, this feels like detachment and out of love.

I can relate to that. I will occasionally feel repulsion sitting or lying next to my WW. It's something I just have had to manage. It's obviously made more difficult by her unloving acts toward me.