SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

That is quite insightful. I’ve spent a few times over the years trying to convince a unfortunate newly minted BS that they might have said the words I FORGIVE but in fact there is no way that it was true at that moment.

You see, after reading here for 5 years and thru many life experiences myself, I firmly am of the belief that the act of forgiving, truly forgiving, is perhaps an involuntary response.

As Ellie wrote, she couldn’t forgive her husband until one day, she realized she had. It was not something she could force herself to do. The body knows. The mind does it all on its own. The person cannot control if it happens or not. It either just does, over time, or it doesn’t.

That’s why I shake my head when someone shows up here, newly destroyed by infidelity, and says "I’ve already told her, or him, that I’ve forgiven them". It’s just not true in my opinion. It’s not really your choice. Of course you can choose to say the words. But that does not make it true.

I’ve not read the book "the body keeps score" but the title makes sense to me and I’m hoping the author discusses this phenomenon. You might want to give it a read.

Agreed.

But I also wanted to mention this before I finish. I have written here often that I believe there is a difference between forgiving the person vs forgiving the act. I think it’s possible to forgive the person long before or even if you can never forgive the act.

Forgiving the person to me, has to do if the person is no longer who he or she was when they performed the acts of infidelity. If I can see that they have done the work, been able to dig deep down, and actually in effect, change their stripes to truly become someone who is no longer capable of doing the type of damage they did to hurt you in the past, then I believe it’s possible for me to forgive them, the person they are now, without forgiving the act they callously performed that hurt me so.

To me this is something that takes years of introspection by a WS to achieve. The past few days of good behavior aside, your wife has not come close yet to showing she can do that work. Like you, I’m hopeful. And she has to find that desire within her to change. In my opinion she still is far too inward focused to even begin that journey. But if and when she does, and consistently becomes who you need to be a faithful supportive and yes, safe partner to you, then someday you may find that you have forgiven her, without forgiving what damaged you by her betrayal years before.

I do agree that you can R without forgiving at all. But being able to forgive at least the person makes The chance of R being successful a lot stronger.

I appreciate you pointing that out because I think it's important and something I should have clarified yesterday. Right now, without being convinced of remorse, I can't forgive her as a person. On a moral level, I cannot forgive the acts.

I suppose what I'm exploring is if forgiveness is needed at all to attempt R. I'm leaning on my kink to move the needle and I genuinely don't know how I'll handle that emotionally over the long haul.

Thanks for listening.

So I read that and thought: he meant "reading," not "listening." I have IC later and I want to dig into my critical nature. I truly don't understand what that is inside me.

For one, I know precisely what you meant, so without causing confusion, why would it matter to me what word you used? And two, why do I have that parental desire to teach all the time? It's obnoxious to others and also annoying/exhausting to think in that way--to always be *on* and looking for the flaw in everything I encounter.

As days roll on, I stumble on various new things I want to explore, but your minor error reminded me of what I want to prioritize today.

If someone wants to lose weight, the very first thing they should do is understand why they weigh more than they want currently. Alternatively, they could learn nothing and follow the latest diet fad and hope for the best. That approach rarely works for the long haul because the person doesn't understand why they're doing what they're doing or how any of it is working or not working.

So to pull this back to an affair--it's easy enough to tell a WS who cheated with a co-worker not to socialize with co-workers of the opposite sex, and perhaps that will prevent a near-term affair, but it's not going to have long-term success--the person may end up having an affair with their dentist instead. They need to understand--really understand--what inside them broke that allowed the infidelity to happen. It's not a matter of simply correcting specific behavior.

Not every fat person or wayward needs to really understand what inside them broke or why they over-indulged in the first place (be it on extra food or an extra person). Most people likely did it because they wanted to do it at the time (and then found it hard to stop because it became a habit or they became addicted to X).

(Understanding why you ate the first donut, doesn't necessarily keep you from eating the second donut)

In order to stop, the individual has to desire change over the presumed benefit of the candy bar, person, drug. They have to want and believe that doing or acting better is the direction they want to move in.

Granted, a person can change because they are coerced or "required" to do so (to stay in a marriage, to get health insurance, to keep a job, etc). But IMHO true, authentic change will only be possible if a person decides that the change is necessary and beneficial to them and their future plans for themselves.

For me, change has a lot more to do with sticking to personal goals than in trying to decide why I did an unhealthy thing in the first place. In fact, I honestly believe that you can over-think the why. (I could potentially lap someone 10x by taking action on what I know needs done -vs- examining the WHY)

"Get busy living, or get busy dying."

Note: I'm not saying change is easy. Nor am I saying that it only requires will-power (because I know for a fact that it takes MORE than just will-power).

[This message edited by ohmy_marie at 8:29 PM, Wednesday, September 7th]

I want to speak personally to the weight loss piece because I think it has some value in the bigger picture that many of us have been trying to convey to you. I also think it’s a great time to draw a correlation because weight loss often gets contributed to simple mathematical "calories in vs calories out".

I think I was 12 when I first went on a self-imposed "diet". I had read in one of those "coming of age" books the notion that girls should watch their weight - and such the idea was born within me. I also had a close first cousin whose father liked to weigh us and compare. I was in fertile ground for my weight because I was an entirely different body style than my otherwise comparable cousin. I knew really nothing about weight as a pre-teen…just that I always weighed more than my cousin and that seemed to be…an "issue" somehow. The point I’m making is conditioning - and especially conditioning without context or adult reasoning. Dieting was a coping skill that was born for reasons unknown, unconscious.

I’ve dieted most of my adult life for the same reasons. (Society only reinforced the childhood ideas). I wouldn’t say I struggled with weight…more that dieting just became a way of life. And many of those diets were actually harmful in the bigger picture; that was irrelevant. The scale ruled; it had the final day.

When I hit middle age, my body just quit cooperating with the insanity. I noticed that no matter what I did - ie, calories in/calories out - I was stuck. 5-10 pounds was all the scale would ever move - no matter what I ate. This was when I began to investigate the impact that my self-concept (how I identified, ie, someone that needed to always watch my weight) was playing. I started to focus on seeing myself differently.

Within the time span of 4 months of that kind of focus, I lost almost 50 lbs. I actually got to a weight that was really unhealthy for me on the flip side of that equation. What I had realized through my self-exploration was that extra weight was subconsciously and psychologically how I hid; it was actually serving to protect me in ways that I was previously not aware I had desired.

The point being - awareness changed everything, even something in my physical body that would normally be attributed to basic science. But I didn’t get there, didn’t uncover the root, as long as I was focused and relying on just logic.

This is why understanding/awareness is so critical to real growth. The mind is extremely influenceable - particularly at an early age. Ironically, it can also become very rigid - and that’s especially true if we have great confidence in our ability to reason. Our thoughts also have the ability to directly affect our body’s response - even outside the dictates of science. I’ve given you a great example of how that can happen.

To really change behavior we have to incorporate the whole of what’s contributing to it - body, mind (thoughts) and emotions. But most people focus predominantly on only behavior…and they lean heavily on their strongest coping skills to circumvent the other aspects. In your case I think that’s your brain/analytical nature.

To overcome that you have to begin to recognize that your strong suit is also the trapdoor. It’s what takes up all your focus and energy. It’s also highly likely that it’s running some subconscious interference. Focusing on yourself doesn’t mean just looking at your behavior. It requires being able to go beyond just the outward manifestation and understanding your whys. Otherwise, growth never actually gets beyond just controlling your behavior; it’s not authentic.

Not every fat person or wayward needs to really understand what inside them broke or why they over-indulged in the first place (be it on extra food or an extra person). Most people likely did it because they wanted to do it at the time (and then found it hard to stop because it became a habit or they became addicted to X).

(Understanding why you ate the first donut, doesn't necessarily keep you from eating the second donut)

In order to stop, the individual has to desire change over the presumed benefit of the candy bar, person, drug. They have to want and believe that doing or acting better is the direction they want to move in.

Granted, a person can change because they are coerced or "required" to do so (to stay in a marriage, to get health insurance, to keep a job, etc). But IMHO true, authentic change will only be possible if a person decides that the change is necessary and beneficial to them and their future plans for themselves.

For me, change has a lot more to do with sticking to personal goals than in trying to decide why I did an unhealthy thing in the first place. In fact, I honestly believe that you can over-think the why. (I could potentially lap someone 10x by taking action on what I know needs done -vs- examining the WHY)

"Get busy living, or get busy dying."

Note: I'm not saying change is easy. Nor am I saying that it only requires will-power (because I know for a fact that it takes MORE than just will-power).

Marie, I noted that it was *either* lack of understanding or lack of will. Your example: "Understanding why you ate the first donut, doesn't necessarily keep you from eating the second donut."

*If* you understand that eating the donuts will put you at a calorie surplus and still eat them, then it's a lack of will. If you don't understand that, eating the donuts and gaining weight is simply ignorance.

And I don't disagree with you and Sisoon that correcting behavior is critical regardless. I am a very disagreeable and critical person--I don't entirely understand why, but while I'm figuring that out, I'm also trying to force corrective behavior.

I want to speak personally to the weight loss piece because I think it has some value in the bigger picture that many of us have been trying to convey to you. I also think it’s a great time to draw a correlation because weight loss often gets contributed to simple mathematical "calories in vs calories out".

In virtually all cases, it is precisely that simple. I'm not discounting the hormonal responses that certain foods (or fasting) can cause, but on a long enough time line, it's fairly straight-forward. If you don't believe me or the science, stop eating for a week and monitor the results--your own experiment. You'll be fine--in fact there are plenty of health benefits--most of what we eat is for the joy it brings, not because it's necessary to to survive.

And many of those diets were actually harmful in the bigger picture; that was irrelevant. The scale ruled; it had the final day.

Agreed--and that was one of my earlier points: dieting without understanding is often detrimental.

When I hit middle age, my body just quit cooperating with the insanity. I noticed that no matter what I did - ie, calories in/calories out - I was stuck. 5-10 pounds was all the scale would ever move - no matter what I ate.

Gently...that's entirely false.

It's certainly likely that your metabolism slowed down and the baseline amount of calories your body consumed lowered, meaning the same workouts and calorie intake you were accustomed to would no longer yield the same results on the scale.

Ultimately, that required a lifestyle adjustment on your end (burn more calories or consume less).

This was when I began to investigate the impact that my self-concept (how I identified, ie, someone that needed to always watch my weight) was playing. I started to focus on seeing myself differently.

Within the time span of 4 months of that kind of focus, I lost almost 50 lbs. I actually got to a weight that was really unhealthy for me on the flip side of that equation.

Again, gently, you didn't lose 50 pounds because you saw yourself differently, though I have no doubt the positive framing helped you put into action the steps needed.

This is why understanding/awareness is so critical to real growth. The mind is extremely influenceable - particularly at an early age. Ironically, it can also become very rigid - and that’s especially true if we have great confidence in our ability to reason. Our thoughts also have the ability to directly affect our body’s response - even outside the dictates of science. I’ve given you a great example of how that can happen.

I think it's best we stop using this analogy.

To really change behavior we have to incorporate the whole of what’s contributing to it - body, mind (thoughts) and emotions. But most people focus predominantly on only behavior…and they lean heavily on their strongest coping skills to circumvent the other aspects. In your case I think that’s your brain/analytical nature.

To overcome that you have to begin to recognize that your strong suit is also the trapdoor. It’s what takes up all your focus and energy. It’s also highly likely that it’s running some subconscious interference. Focusing on yourself doesn’t mean just looking at your behavior. It requires being able to go beyond just the outward manifestation and understanding your whys. Otherwise, growth never actually gets beyond just controlling your behavior; it’s not authentic.

It seems you're at odds with Sisoon and Marie, though I may be misunderstanding.

I don't think it's predominantly understanding or behavior, but I'm open to being further influenced as I go. Using my critical nature as an example, I find the search for understanding helpful and I need to implement the behavior change as well. It's hard though--I'm trying to act on my thoughts very different than I ever have.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 1:42 AM, Thursday, September 8th]

I need to implement the behavior change as well. It's hard though--I'm trying to act on my thoughts very different than I ever have.

Ok. Then why is it so hard? By your logic, it should be easy. Unless you’re just ignorant or lack the will power, right?

It’s funny because you can’t even look at MY experience through a lens other than the one you have. THIS is the root of the challenge as I’ve seen it from day one. You can’t just accept…rather for it to be real (even for me and as I describe it) you must agree. Outside of that it’s wholly dismissed.

All while you openly acknowledge that you are a "disagreeable" personality.

I am a very disagreeable and critical person--I don't entirely understand why, but while I'm figuring that out, I'm also trying to force corrective behavior.

I think the reason is pretty obvious, and I suspect it is to your wife as well. You would be less critical of every last glance, facial expression, or the correct use of a word, if you looked inward and realize your are not the smartest person in any room when it comes to how to interact with other people. It is wonderful to be intelligent, and you clearly are. But when that is used as a weapon, in my opinion it is wasted. From what I have seen from your writings, you are critical of people because you seem to think that if you can find a flaw in their word usage, who they are, what their life experience is, or whatever when you don't want to truly read what they said (note, I didn't say listen), you can establish that your are right. There is little room in your world for truly understanding where someone else is coming from.

Your wife was dead wrong to have an affair. You are completely entitled and justified in your feelings about that. But you are dismissive of "labels" on what those feelings are, even from people who have deeply and personally felt every last one of those labels and understand them, even though they never wanted to.

But in reading all of the hundreds of your posts I find myself wondering something. You seem to want to know why she did what she did. From all your critical thinking about her, the thing that stood out is that you think she is incapable of comprehending real concepts of things, is inept, and doesn't contribute much to your life. Hence the parent child thing. You feel the need to train her. Somehow, you don't seem to realize that she'd find that insulting.

So the why I'd love to hear is why do you want to be married to her. Why did you marry her. You don't seem to like her very much. You just seem to think she's attractive. Is that enough?

Thanks for listening.

I’m glad you heard what I was saying. It seemed to really touch you, so it must have passed the smell test.

Ok. Then why is it so hard? By your logic, it should be easy. Unless you’re just ignorant or lack the will power, right?

I don’t have a full understanding for *why* I’m critical in nature. So there’s certainly ignorance. I spent some time exploring it in IC yesterday, but didn’t leave the session with much direction.

And I do lack the will to change completely. Perhaps it’s because my critical lens feels authentic—it’s who I’ve been as long as I remember. It’s how I learn and interact in the world. I need to dampen it while still feeling true to myself and it’s something I’m struggling with.

It’s funny because you can’t even look at MY experience through a lens other than the one you have. THIS is the root of the challenge as I’ve seen it from day one. You can’t just accept…rather for it to be real (even for me and as I describe it) you must agree. Outside of that it’s wholly dismissed.

Truth, much of your "experience" ignores scientific and nutritional fact. There’s some understanding needed on your end—and I don’t have to be the teacher. I understand I can come off harsh, but it’s not malice. I’m genuinely glad you found a path that works for you.

You can stop there; you don’t have to dig deeper into understanding how the bodily changes you made happened.

All while you openly acknowledge that you are a "disagreeable" personality.

Well that’s what makes this specific exchange so interesting. As far as I can tell, you’re a lovely woman taking the time to offer a complete stranger help when he’s at a very low point. A less disagreeable person, in my shoes, would be very careful not to offend you. He’d read your post on nutrition and smile and nod.

That’s not who I am. It’s impossible to truly communicate without the risk of offending who you’re talking with. So we can superficially smile and nod or we can really dig in.

It’s also worth noting that you don’t seem the least bit concerned with offending me (and that’s good). You shared your experience and I didn’t accept it at face value, so rather than examine that, you responded by suggesting I was at fault—the implication being I don’t have empathy for your situation.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 11:46 AM, Thursday, September 8th]

I think the reason is pretty obvious, and I suspect it is to your wife as well. You would be less critical of every last glance, facial expression, or the correct use of a word, if you looked inward and realize your are not the smartest person in any room when it comes to how to interact with other people. It is wonderful to be intelligent, and you clearly are. But when that is used as a weapon, in my opinion it is wasted. From what I have seen from your writings, you are critical of people because you seem to think that if you can find a flaw in their word usage, who they are, what their life experience is, or whatever when you don't want to truly read what they said (note, I didn't say listen), you can establish that your are right. There is little room in your world for truly understanding where someone else is coming from.

I spent most of my IC session yesterday exploring that. I don’t think I’m the smartest person in the room, though I very clearly can come off that way. And that’s not a likable feature and I do want to correct it.

As best I can understand it, it’s how my brain learns. I know nothing about rocketry—I could be in the room with a rocket scientist explaining it to me and I’d ask lots of critical questions. I certainly don’t think I know more about rocketry than the individual.

I tend to take what I know—or think I know—and apply it in a critical lens. The result is I’m either going to poke holes in what it being taught to me or I’m going to improve my understanding of the topic.

I do it all the time on this board as well—I never write a post thinking "I’m so much smarter than this person." I write the post in the genuine hopes that I’m *not* smarter than the person. I write the post hoping at the end of the conversation, I have something to learn—a way for me to improve myself.

That’s the way I see it—I don’t know if I’m right.

My IC seems to think there’s more going on with my FOO, so we explored that for a bit. I haven’t yet been able to draw the line though.

Your wife was dead wrong to have an affair. You are completely entitled and justified in your feelings about that. But you are dismissive of "labels" on what those feelings are, even from people who have deeply and personally felt every last one of those labels and understand them, even though they never wanted to.

I suppose it’s because I’ve yet to sort out how those labels can help me. I don’t relate to them, and thus they seem like noise to me. But that’s always true of what we don’t understand. I’m not closed off to understanding them, but thus far the light bulb simply hasn’t come on.

But in reading all of the hundreds of your posts I find myself wondering something. You seem to want to know why she did what she did. From all your critical thinking about her, the thing that stood out is that you think she is incapable of comprehending real concepts of things, is inept, and doesn't contribute much to your life. Hence the parent child thing. You feel the need to train her. Somehow, you don't seem to realize that she'd find that insulting.

So the why I'd love to hear is why do you want to be married to her. Why did you marry her. You don't seem to like her very much. You just seem to think she's attractive. Is that enough?

I’m struggling with an answer to that. I can list off her positive and negative qualities, but ultimately I suspect I may not *want* to be married to her. I do want to have full access to my children, so I’m open to the idea that what I want can change—maybe I can arrive at a place where I don’t often just see the worst in her. I don’t know.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 1:10 PM, Thursday, September 8th]

I’m glad you heard what I was saying. It seemed to really touch you, so it must have passed the smell test. laugh

I always appreciate your posts, Steven. There’s been a lot of wisdom over the last several months.

(And if it wasn’t clear, my reference to your minor grammatical error was an attack on me, not you.)

It seems you're at odds with Sisoon and Marie, though I may be misunderstanding.

Not writing on Marie's behalf. I think you don't understand. I don't think there's much space between truth and me on this. I think motivation is extremely complex. I don't have a language to describe it, but I think 'awareness' is definitely part of making changes. In fact, my experience says that awareness morphs directly and quickly into change.

Some statements are true without being helpful. Other statements are true, and they lead to solving a problem. What do you need to hear to get unstuck? What do you need to tell yourself to heal?

Not writing on Marie's behalf. I think you don't understand. I don't think there's much space between truth and me on this. I think motivation is extremely complex. I don't have a language to describe it, but I think 'awareness' is definitely part of making changes. In fact, my experience says that awareness morphs directly and quickly into change.

Some statements are true without being helpful. Other statements are true, and they lead to solving a problem. What do you need to hear to get unstuck? What do you need to tell yourself to heal?

Thank you, Sisoon. I have just a few more comments--

(I had a huge response typed out but then deleted it. Not because I didn't think my points were valid, but because I realized that other poster's opinions/points were equally valid. Why continue to churn?)

IMHO, it goes without saying that there needs to be a basic understanding of a subject matter in order to make educated changes for yourself.

Sisoon notes that motivation is extremely complex, and I agree. He states his experience is that awareness morphs directly and quickly into change for him. I would say that awareness, combined with want, morphs quickly and directly into change for me.

The key is identifying what you truly need in order to make necessary changes for YOU.

P.S. There's also an element of grace involved when working with others on change-- accepting that there is more than one way to reach a desired outcome (and allowing others to chart their own path).

[This message edited by ohmy_marie at 5:10 PM, Thursday, September 8th]

I would say that awareness, combined with want, morphs quickly and directly into change for me.

I think this is a critical point in that there’s a nuance that’s often not realized until we get a deeper awareness.

Speaking personally whenever there is an undesired behavior that I want to change but find difficult to do so, there’s usually some aspect of that undesirable behavior that is either serving me - or I perceive for it to be serving me. . As I mentioned in my example with weight, recognizing that the additional weight was subconsciously serving to protect me was the critical point of awareness that I reached to then be able to actually evaluate - was it truly serving me? This is the aspect that I was most trying to convey.

Sisoon - While I don’t think your intention has been to "bolster" me, I really appreciate that you’ve been kind enough to read my posts and respond to them within your own context. That’s been very helpful to my own internal feedback loop and you’ve quite often done an exceptional job of taking what I’ve been trying to say and explaining it further.

I think motivation is extremely complex. I don't have a language to describe it, but I think 'awareness' is definitely part of making changes. In fact, my experience says that awareness morphs directly and quickly into change.

Using my critical nature as the example, I'm aware of it often and still find it hard to hold my tongue--or even more important--not feel like like I should say something. It happens frequently where I'll choose not to say something; other times I will--but I'll always have that pull inside. I'd love to change that critical nature beyond just corrective behavior.

Here's an example from this morning. My WW was measuring an area rug (she wants to get a smaller one) and she seemed to be struggling to determine the measurement. From across the room, I commented: "It looks like it's about seven-and-a-half feet, so we'll just need something a bit smaller--maybe a six-by-four."

My wife replied, "No, it's seven feet, six inches."

I paused confused. I observed. She wasn't clear that six inches was half-a-foot. That seemed *very* strange to me. I wasn't mad, but I'd be lying if I pretended it didn't perplex me.

I joked: "I think those are the same..." We laughed. No issues resulted.

But I have no idea if it's an issue for her inside--is that another moment where I "made her feel stupid" and now she feels terrible about herself? Should I have not even pointed out that out?

Ultimately, I suspect my resistance to hold my tongue is sourced more in that she is the one at "fault" in these interactions. She'll often comment without thinking and then she'll not communicate how it makes her feel and then hold the anger inside. Her gaining some mindfulness and opening communication would help us more than anything, but I have no control over that.

Some statements are true without being helpful. Other statements are true, and they lead to solving a problem. What do you need to hear to get unstuck? What do you need to tell yourself to heal?

I wish I had a clear answer on this. I still have a nagging inside me about the affair--I can't entirely move passed it. That's why I was considering leanign on my kink. Thus far, time passing has helped though.

But I have no idea if it's an issue for her inside--is that another moment where I "made her feel stupid" and now she feels terrible about herself? Should I have not even pointed out that out?

Ultimately, I suspect my resistance to hold my tongue is sourced more in that she is the one at "fault" in these interactions. She'll often comment without thinking and then she'll not communicate how it makes her feel and then hold the anger inside. Her gaining some mindfulness and opening communication would help us more than anything, but I have no control over that.

My dad was very hyper-critical of me. He alllllllways found some way, however small or insignificant, to criticize or correct me. He very frequently made me feel stupid (which I am not) and it got to a point with him where I just shut up. What was the point in me communicating how I felt or trying to express a feeling or thought when I knew he would just pick at it and turn it around on me so I was somehow at fault? Yeah, it was absolutely infuriating and demoralizing.

When I lived with him years ago, my "one chore" that we "agreed" upon was to clean the bathrooms. I also babysat my siblings (both small children at the time, one 6 yo and 1yo - I was 17 so am way older) every day. In addition to my nanny duties, I also kept and cleaned the whole house (he is a slob and his messiness made me crazy so figured it was just easier to do myself than to expect him to get off his lazy ass and do it) and did the majority of the cooking and also all the laundry for myself and 2 small kids. Yeah - 17 and I was basically the live-in nanny/housekeeper. Well some days I wouldn't have a chance to get to the bathrooms before he got home from work (because you know I was busy raising his children) and he would come home, go directly to the bathroom that I hadn't gotten to yet, and then come out and immediately start pontificating at me about how I wasn't doing my "one chore".... while standing in the middle of an immaculately clean house with happy kiddos that were well looked after and dinner going on the stove.

Was he wrong? I mean, I technically hadn't cleaned the bathrooms.

I type out the above and remember how I would just choke it down. Choke down the anger and hurt. Choke down the unfairness. Just be agreeable and admit my 'fault'. Because if I DID speak up, then I would be treated a delightful long condescending lecture about how I hadn't held up my end of our 'agreement' about my chores, and that 'my feelings were my responsibility', and that he was 'just pointing out' whatever point he felt it needful to make. Funny he never seemed to have any thought whatsoever that he was maybe acting like an enormous bag of douche.

You have said many times over the last months that you are 'disagreeable' and critical. I would agree with that self-assessment from what I have read. I shared the above with you to tell you that interacting and living with someone who finds fault with you no matter what you do is incredibly difficult and it does serious long-term damage. And most people, myself included, will hit a point where they just shut down and stop trying to communicate because it just isn't worth the conflict that it creates.

You say you want your wife to communicate openly with you? She might do that more if you weren't picking pointless arguments about six inches or half a foot, when they are both the same exact thing and why does it matter anyways? Point being, just because someone thinks differently or looks at something differently than you do doesn't necessarily make either of you 'wrong'.

Look, nothing that you did or didn't do makes your wife's decision to cheat in any way your fault. That is 100% on her and her alone. But you are not going to rebuild your marriage by nitpicking about pointless shite my friend. You have some very valid criticisms of her and her behavior for sure - focus on the truly important ones and let the ones about measurements go is my advice.

My dad was very hyper-critical of me. He alllllllways found some way, however small or insignificant, to criticize or correct me. He very frequently made me feel stupid (which I am not) and it got to a point with him where I just shut up. What was the point in me communicating how I felt or trying to express a feeling or thought when I knew he would just pick at it and turn it around on me so I was somehow at fault? Yeah, it was absolutely infuriating and demoralizing.

When I lived with him years ago, my "one chore" that we "agreed" upon was to clean the bathrooms. I also babysat my siblings (both small children at the time, one 6 yo and 1yo - I was 17 so am way older) every day. In addition to my nanny duties, I also kept and cleaned the whole house (he is a slob and his messiness made me crazy so figured it was just easier to do myself than to expect him to get off his lazy ass and do it) and did the majority of the cooking and also all the laundry for myself and 2 small kids. Yeah - 17 and I was basically the live-in nanny/housekeeper. Well some days I wouldn't have a chance to get to the bathrooms before he got home from work (because you know I was busy raising his children) and he would come home, go directly to the bathroom that I hadn't gotten to yet, and then come out and immediately start pontificating at me about how I wasn't doing my "one chore".... while standing in the middle of an immaculately clean house with happy kiddos that were well looked after and dinner going on the stove.

Your father sounds like a deeply unhappy man. And you (rightfully) have some resentment over that relationship. I don't think that's reflective of the relationship with my WW.

While I certainly can be critical, my WW does not take on the lion-share of responsibilities of the home and the vast majority of my criticisms are aimed inward.

Was he wrong? I mean, I technically hadn't cleaned the bathrooms.

That is complicated in your example because he was your father and you were 17; so while he wasn't "wrong," he was certainly unkind (perhaps even monstrous).

But if you apply that same agreement to a mutual adult relationship--like a marriage--you failed to meet the agreement and then justified your failure based on your perceived unfairness of the agreement. Don't agree to things you don't agree with; and don't stay in a relationship with someone you can't communicate with; and certainly don't wallow in resentment and make yourself miserable. (Again, that's not a reflection on your parent-child example.)

You have said many times over the last months that you are 'disagreeable' and critical. I would agree with that self-assessment from what I have read. I shared the above with you to tell you that interacting and living with someone who finds fault with you no matter what you do is incredibly difficult and it does serious long-term damage. And most people, myself included, will hit a point where they just shut down and stop trying to communicate because it just isn't worth the conflict that it creates.

You say you want your wife to communicate openly with you? She might do that more if you weren't picking pointless arguments about six inches or half a foot, when they are both the same exact thing and why does it matter anyways? Point being, just because someone thinks differently or looks at something differently than you do doesn't necessarily make either of you 'wrong'.

In the silly measurement example I gave, my WW was the one being critical of me. She was objectively wrong in her criticism--it wasn't a matter of looking at it differently.

I suppose that's the difference though between my wife and I--and perhaps you and I. If I falsely corrected someone like that, I'd feel like an idiot--and it's certainly happened to me before. I can't relate to the idea of getting angry with the person I tried to falsely correct. The entitlement and victimization of that mindset makes me angry to think about.

FWIW, my WW is seemingly getting much better in that regard. The measurement thing wasn't even a thing--it was just a stupid example of my WW speaking before thinking. It's a regular occurrence. I don't get upset by it; I find it endearing usually. I'm saddened to have learned she's been sitting on all her mistakes over the years and directing her failures at me though.

It's a matter of incompatibility in our mindsets. I genuinely didn't know that's how she processed our relationship and I'd never have been in a relationship with her had I known that. Her true self was kept hidden from me for a long time. And I accept I must have been a bit blind to it, but I won't take blame for her deception.

Look, nothing that you did or didn't do makes your wife's decision to cheat in any way your fault. That is 100% on her and her alone. But you are not going to rebuild your marriage by nitpicking about pointless shite my friend. You have some very valid criticisms of her and her behavior for sure - focus on the truly important ones and let the ones about measurements go is my advice.

I think that's great advice. Thank you.

I haven't posted much in the last week, but with a lack of conflict between my WW and I, I've been doing a lot of introspection. I've had Sisoon in my head, suggesting I focus on my feelings--and then perhaps even more interestingly, examining the behavior change that results from those feelings; i.e. how I react to feeling a certain way.

I suppose now it's time to write.

There are two topics that have taken up most in my thoughts and the first is perhaps a bit close to home as it ties into the SI community. I debated writing about it, but I enjoy the catharsis of laying everything out on the table.

I received a PM from a forum moderator a few days ago informing me that discussions of sex with my WW and my cuckold kink were upsetting SI members. The mod suggested that I may be more suited for another community as those topics may not be appropriate for this forum.

My initial reaction was a bit of surprise--I'm writing here as I navigate the turmoil of my WW's affair and our sex life and my cuckold kink, at times, have been integral parts of the landscape, so I've written about them. I tried to empathize with the offended parties and it was admittedly difficult. In the shoes of someone offended by my posts on those topics, I would resolve it by not entering this thread or reading my posts. That seems like both the path of least resistance and easiest way to protect oneself moving forward. The choice to instead complain to a mod seems aggressive.

But it wasn't just one person as it was multiple "complaints." So with multiple people not choosing the path of least resistance, it seems to suggest something more personal. Add onto it that the mod determined the offended position was valid enough to write me the PM on the topic and it left me feeling fairly hurt.

My initial reaction was to run--perhaps a familiar feeling that I haven't really explored deeply before--the idea of feeling disliked or ostracized from a group. It makes me want to run and hide.

It led me toward a memory from about a decade ago: following college, my college friends and I started a group email chain (about 10 of us) and we'd send funny memes to each other at work and whatnot. With my abrasive, disagreeable nature, I was involved in many (what I considered) harmless conflicts, but I was oblivious to how it left others feeling (likely exhausted from dealing with me, as several of you may relate).

A few years later, with the start of iPhones, I learned that several group text chats had been established without me. Now, the truth is that likely had more to do with me getting married earlier and not going out partying with them anymore, but my interpretation left me feeling disliked.

I didn't bother me long--and that's a hard thing for me to explain (I think I tend to assume virtually all conflict is harmless until I learn that it's not)--and I suspect around that time my co-dependency with my WW increased as distance between my college friends and I grew.

It's really the first feeling like that I recall--I had awesome high school friends and our bonds felt unconditional.

I suppose my mindset has always been to never care what others think of me--I found it noble--until I had my first child. Watching him grow and socialize, I realized the value to being liked. In many ways, it's perhaps the most important quality for someone to have--it changes *everything*.

I began modifying my behavior--to be less critical and lean into less conflict. A far cry from the average person, but I've likely made big strides from who I was. Though admittedly, that's not something I practiced writing here--I have been about as raw and unfiltered as possible.

The mod PM from a few days ago felt like a direct rejection of who I am--nobody likes you, so go somewhere else! And to be clear, I don't think that was the intention of the PM; I'm simply describing the impact it had on me.

I suppose I'm writing about it now as a rejection of my own instincts--to break the pattern of being hurt and running away. In this example, where I can't relate to the logic behind anyone else involved, it made me realize that my issue isn't with being unlikable, it's with dealing with the consequences of being unlikable.

And for what it's worth, I've had similar feelings regarding my WW these last six months: a desire to run away after being so blatantly rejected. It's something so central in me and it's been put in direct conflict with something equally central: my desire to provide a loving family home for my children. Those tenets within me are now at direct odds, but as Sisoon suggests, perhaps I can break the first with forced behavior modification.

**

On an entirely different topic, the other issue weighing on my mind these last couple of days has been my in-laws. I've kept them largely out of my mind for several weeks and things have been going great with my WW. On Sunday, my FIL texted me--a harmless communication about the NFL season starting (he knows I'm a big football fan) and an update with what's going on with him. I responded politely.

As the day went on, my mood worsened though. It wasn't until the evening when I identified the exchange with him as the reason. I'm still clearly very hurt by their behavior and I've managed it by forcing it out of my mind. His text forced their existence back to center stage.

I was fine the next day emotionally, but did explore it more. Then on Tuesday, my WW casually let me know that her parents would be coming down to visit for a couple of nights at the end of the month--and that they'd likely stay at a nearby hotel and she could bring the kids to visit and go to a park and a restaurant.

It was a lot to take in as I've been pushing this conflict off (again, Dec. has been in my mind as that's usually their annual visit). I recognize that by avoiding them on this visit I'll be escalating the conflict--which isn't necessarily a problem, but I want to think it through first. I suggested we lead off our next MC session on Friday and asked her to please give me until then to think it over.

A few minutes later, my WW engaged again, asking what days that week I'd be going into the office. I recognized immediately where she was heading, trying to figure out if I'd be out of the house so they could come to us directly. I told her I could be flexible and go in whenever I want that week, to which she replied (very sweetly), "Well it just might be easiest if you weren't here and they can leave before you get home."

I thought about the implications of that sentence. First being the obvious that me being in my home makes her life more difficult--"might be easiest..." really hit me hard; the callous nature of that framing weighed on me. But then as a follow up, the awkwardness she was creating--essentially sneaking her parents in and out of our house so I don't see them. It seems patently absurd and would likely only worsen any eventual repair to the relationships.

I'm left with the unshakable feeling that she's not all-in on our marriage; that things will take a turn for the worse if I follow my current feelings on her parents to write them out of my life entirely. I don't like the feeling of being a slave to my emotions though--I'd always rather lead with understanding and logic. So beyond the obvious, which I've already written about, why are these feelings of betrayal so deep?

I try to always start with the most obvious thing--Occom's Razor--and there is one particular thing that has replayed in my mind at least once a day these last six months (I may have written about it before).

On March 15, when I was listening in on the conversation between my WW, MIL and SIL, I overheard my MIL pleading with my WW that she "deserves passion" in her life.

That phrase has echoed around my brain. I try to imagine being a parent and offering that advice to my child. It speaks to the entitlement of what is "deserved" rather than what is desired *and* it speaks to how hollow the contract of marriage is to her. Both of those views are so contrary to who I am and they represent the very worst of who my WW is.

And that's an interesting dynamic--to see my MIL as the worst of my WW. And I an relate to that feeling--I love my father deeply and he is a lovely man, but his worst traits are clearly defined and I hate when I reflect them. I suspect if I pass them on to my son, I'll hate to see them there too.

Unlike my WW, my MIL is making no commitment to change--she is vapid and that's how she'll live and die. I don't want that in my life; and certainly not now. But I also understand how that's an unsolvable problem for my wife. If the roles were reversed, I'd never tolerate my parents being unwelcome in my home. Perhaps that's a false equivalency though.

I feel like I'm in uncharted waters as I virtually never delay conflict and that's what I've been doing here. I just don't have a resolution that I can act on currently. I'm very interested to hear the perspective of my MC though.

Anyway, this post has gone on way too long, but I suspect it has done me some good. I hope you're all well.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 9:16 PM, Wednesday, September 14th]

DrS welcome back. Express yourself in whatever way that helps you best. And if it is examining your kink, so it be. People have the option of not reading your posts. You thrive best In debating so why change that. I see while you argue your point you are also receptive to ideas.
Carry on healing people are rooting for you

Dr, I'm glad that you have continued posting. I don't relate to your kink and can't say I care to read it but that doesn't mean you shouldn't post about it if it's relevant. Your honesty about it actually lead to a conversation in which you thought about it differently because of another poster's experience. That would not have happened if you had decided to leave it alone. People are free to stop reading your thread if they cannot handle it. No one is forcing them to look at it.

About your in-laws - you should do exactly what you are comfortable with. If your WW doesn't like it, that is *her* problem. If it causes friction with them, that is *her* relationship to manage. The wound is still fresh. You are allowed to set boundaries and be free from their drama until you are ready to re-establish that relationship. Hopefully your MC will back you up if your WW wants to take issue with that. They're not comparable to your parents because your parents didn't help you torpedo your marriage and threaten your children's stability.

[This message edited by nekonamida at 1:16 AM, Thursday, September 15th]