SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I will not abandon her and will remain hopeful that with time, she will realize that my feelings matter.

Please, please, please rethink this. This is how I felt, for 4 years and 3 months. I held onto hope that my wife would see the error in her ways, that she would understand the pain she inflicted, and eventually initiate change to become a better person. It never happened and for that duration of time it crushed me over and over. Truth is, if she’s not already actively working on repairing the damage and protecting your heart, she has already left, just like my wife left me long ago. Don’t lose the years I have in the pursuit of something likely never to happen. I’m not saying it won’t, but you need to demand the respect that is owed and the work that is needed to create a solid relationship.

Bigger. With all due respect, your response illicited anger in me. Setting my cheating wife up with an apartment is game-playing. We are married. We live in a new home with two dogs—including a new puppy. We both have responsibilities here, and setting her up with an apartment is not addressing the problem, but an "approach" as you call it. Respectfully, I don't need an approach; I simply need to live a life of honesty and accountability. I will continue to be my best self and do whatever it takes to ensure my wife is happy with me. If I fail, I failed. Not a failing approach or strategy.

Thank you, Copingmybest. Sadly, I think you are right. And it only makes me hurt more. I feel so broken.

Low tide, this is obviously an extremely difficult process to go through emotionally and logistically. You've got 25 years of lying behind you and because her affair actually started BEFORE you marriage and continued for at least 12 years in (because you don't know the truth) it doesn't sound like it was ever really a "real" marriage from her point of view. She married you for whatever reasons but it was not romantic love or what we go into marriage for. People who cheat at the start of the marriage (or before) and especially for such a long time, are not in romantic love with their spouses as they should be for a marriage. I'm sorry to say that, but I can't come to any other conclusion. You just don't marry with this mindset and being with someone else like this. I don't think this was ever a real marriage for her and her statements about wanting to leave, etc, seem to confirm this to me.

I know you don't want to hear this but to heal we have to be honest and others have to be honest with us. This is what I see in this and it's what I always see in situations where a spouse STARTS OFF cheating.

Obviously we can see how deeply attached you are to her despite everything but I don't think that's healthy for you. I think you're too dependent on someone who is inherently unreliable and doesn't have the same feelings for you. It's like you have found your emotional home for good or ill and you're not willing to budge and sometimes we have to to make better things happen. I would recommend intensive therapy here to help you develop friendships and hobbies and an outside world AWAY from your wife. I think you need to make your life BIGGER and more FULL so she is only part of it. Not the whole thing. As we get older, and I'm about 70, you have to think that even the happiest marriages are going to end because one of is going to die first. My husband and I both have health issues, I think I'll go before him,but who knows. It's just a reality of life. So at some point, one of is going to be alone without the other, no matter what we want because that's life. So the more full you can make your life now in other ways, having other friends, other contacts, other interests, other hobbies, other activities - the more able you will be to handle both your current relationship and whatever comes in the future. You will give yourself more options. Don't be too dependent on anyone thing or person - the key to success in life is often to diversify.

I can see from some of your comments you are very sensitive about this issue and I can understand that, but please try to understand that we each see things from our own point of view and we express ourselves differently, but we all want to help, so what we say may seem wrong or misguided at times, but it always comes from a good place. It may or may not be useful or something you want to hear but it's meant to give some different perspectives or ideas.

[This message edited by BondJaneBond at 8:10 PM, Saturday, September 6th]

I yearn to learn from others who have lived with liars and learn how to cope with them.

You've read, I think, that living with a liar is a type of hell and that it may result in D, if you heal yourself.

I've been around these specific parts for almost 15 years, and I've been alive for 5+ times that. I think I've learned a little in those years, things such as:

1) love is not enough to create and maintain a long-term relationship that serves both partners;

2) R is impossible when one partner won't be honest with themselves and their partner.

I don't know what keeps you unwilling to consider D. Maybe it's co-dependence; maybe it's limerence; maybe it's religious principle; maybe it's something else. I do think your best bet is to figure out what has kept you in this limbo for 25 years and to decide mindfully if the old decision is good for you now.

BondJaneBond and sisoon. Thank you both so much for your time and thoughtful responses. BondJaneBond, your reply in particular is very helpful. You are absolutely correct. I have invested all of myself in my marriage, my children, and my career. It is indeed time to diversify so all my eggs aren't in this broken basket. This is great advice and makes a lot of sense for all of us. Please don't fault me for not believing in divorce. I am very principled, particularly in my current chapter in my 60s. I meant my vows, and I live by them—even if my wife chose otherwise. I truly believe that this level of deception and lying is pathological and a form of sickness (i.e., for good or for bad, in sickness and in health....). I continue to seek strategies on how to cope with her infidelity and, in particular, her current lies. Not an hour goes by that I don't picture her intimate with Dennis, from 35 years ago. But even more painful was her telling me, "I'M DONE," after I expressed my inability to cope with her current lies about her dark past. I will continue to pursue professional mental health care. You have become a healthy outlet for me, SI. Thank you all.

Lowtide, did you follow the links I provided on the previous page about the 180? It's not necessarily a guide for divorce, but a method that might help you cope. You don't have to follow it to a T. I think there's some valuable advice in there that might help you cope with your situation and possibly get your wife to start coming around.

Quoted from the first article, "The 180 is often open to mis-interpretation. It is pretty easy to get lost in the details and lose sight of the underlying concept. Fundamentally, it is all about personal empowerment and rebuilding your self esteem. It is not about manipulating your spouse and when this is not understood it interferes with the results. The goal of the 180 is to become the type of person that you want to be."

It's not a game or a manipulation tactic. It's meant to empower you and help you regain some semblance of agency.

Yes, pogre. I did find some of the information helpful. Thank you. The problem I'm having is my obsessive nature. It's hard for me to turn off thoughts, images, and my feelings. My wife, on the other hand, has little interest in discussing feelings—let alone her infidelity and why she did what she did. Having a place to finally vent and share my feelings with others who have been through a similar experience is incredibly helpful. It's not what people say that helps the most; it's what they don't say. Sometimes I feel like I just need another person to share my feelings with, and unfortunately, this is a topic that seems too private to discuss. I'm amazed at how bright and responsive members of this group are. It means the world to me to finally have a place to turn to, rather than living alone, suffering.

lowtide, I'm glad I was able to help at all and I hope you will be able to do something with it. I understand that you consider what your wife is doing a sickness, I personally consider it a series of moral choices she is making over time. Even the Bible allows for divorce in case of infidelity, that has always been clear. No one has to stay with someone who is unfaithful. It breaks the marriage bond. You're not going to want to hear this but I would advise you not to continue to sacrifice yourself for someone who doesn't appreciate it or maybe even want it. You're harming yourself, not helping her. Maybe this is just something you can't consider but if you don't change anything, then nothing is going to change. She has no incentive to change. Alcoholism runs in my family, just to just an addiction analogy, and what I've observed is that alcoholics, and probably other addicts or people who have negative behavior patterns, don't change unless it is force upon them often by severe physical sickness or a threat of death, like cancer, etc. People don't like to change and often the reality of it and necessity of it is something that has to be forced upon them.

I'm not saying you have to divorce, but I think a separation if at all possible might be advisable and helpful for you both. Ultimately you can't save her, she has to save herself. Maybe she just doesn't really want to be married at this point?

Do you have any idea at this point what would make her happy or more contented in marriage with you? What you have right now doesn't sound like it's working for either of you. Of if she could do anything that she wanted, what would it be? I don't know how much you really know about her inner self - this might be something where marriage counseling might help, not strictly about the affair(s) but to find out just what she DOES want, because it seems very nebulous right now and I don't think you can provide what you don't know.

Hmmm....as I think about it right now, my thinking would be to not talk about the affairs as such right now or for a while and focus on what she does want or doesn't want in her life. I think you don't really know a lot about her inner life and that to me is essential in making a marriage work. So this is a case where I think I would recommend marriage counseling, not to talk about her affair(s) as that's not going away but I think she's probably sick of thinking of it and feeling very defensive about it, but to rediscover each other, especially for you to know what she's thinking about and what she wants. She might not know this herself. Maybe you two need a different conversation at this point, a marriage counselor would not just help direct this but be a buffer or coach between you two.

[This message edited by BondJaneBond at 2:55 AM, Sunday, September 7th]

LowTide (I think your name is perfect. Seems to say it all, doesn’t it.)

Anyway, I admire your commitment to your wife. I doubt anyone here doesn’t want to support the direction you choose to take. Our role is to support each other, giving diverse opinions and options, knowing full well there is no one perfect answer to the path of healing from infidelity.

You have been generous in allowing us to suggest things that we might think you don’t see. That does not mean we think we have the answers only that we are trying to assist in spotting possible blinds spots or fallacy thinking. We all have them. I have had a few people help me when I got a bit defensive of my wife, for I see it as my role to defend her. (Taking that role on, without full view of it, led me into my own blind spot.) Fellow members here gently suggested that I at least evaluate ideas offered, then implement what makes sense and discard the ideas that don’t fit. Though uncomfortable, it was good advice that I needed to hear, and I’ve tried to honor it as I slowly open up.

LowTide, we are comrades in this internal and external battle to find level ground in the darkness shrouding the uneven ground with pitfalls and landmines all about, caused by our spouses infidelity. I have learned there is much wisdom here from those who have stumbled and then picked themselves back up not giving up on the journey.

Your post, as well as many others here, has helped me to not feel so alone. So, thank you for being open with all of us and please accept that we are, at some level, on this terrible journey together. The outcomes may very drastically from person to person, but that does not deplete the power of being connected with others that knows the pain.

BondJaneBond and Asterisk. You are both helping me more than you know—and more than any psychiatrist in over 3 decades. There is nothing like walking down the path with someone who has been there, rather than someone with just knowledge, skill, training, and education. I now appreciate why Critical Incident Stress Management is so effective. It focuses on the power of peer support, rather than the aforesaid. The more I read here, the more I realize that people are indeed only trying to help and share what they have learned. It does not mean that they have the answers for me. We love each other, and my wife has made a horrific mistake for which she has repeatedly expressed remorse. She has come with me for help and appears more than committed to starting "a second marriage" with me. She is simply unable or unwilling to keep rehashing the past, as my obsessive nature needs, and gives different versions of what happened 35 years ago. Leaving her, my best friend, my love, and confidant, is not the answer for us. We need to grow from this experience—victim, survivor ... thriver. How to do that will be the key. I need to stop harping on the past. It is what it is. And instead, talk about my feelings in the present day. And in the same way, I keep asking her to share what she is thinking and feeling. Having SI here for me has been so helpful in providing a healthy outlet and stopping me from using her as a punching bag—as she has gaslighted and repeatedly stated. There is some truth to it. I feel like I'm holding her accountable when I ask for the truth. The problem is, as Jack Nicholson said in A Few Good Men, I can't handle the truth. I truly appreciate you for being there for me, and thank you from the bottom of my heart. I am the proverbial cardiologist battling heart disease, which is making this even harder to handle.

Low Tide,

I get that you do believe in the sunk cost fallacy that you keep reiterating. I also see a lot of ‘yes, buts’ in your responses. Are you saying that you don’t really want any change?

Honoring marital vows and working through challenges is not the sunk-cost fallacy; it's a deliberate commitment to growing through adversity. I want change. But change comes from honesty and transparency. I will continue to reiterate this until my wife speaks with consistency, shares details, and her affect is congruent with her self-disclosure. I am struggling with her ongoing deception. Her unwillingness or inability to tell the truth is her sickness. I need to learn how to cope while living through this storm.

Lowtide, It's honorable to believe in the vows you took. I too was in that boat. Even now, while waiting on the court date for our dissolution, knowing 100% full well that my marriage is over. I refuse to even speak to another woman I am interested in simply due to the fact that I am still legally bound to my wife through marriage. She obviously doesn't hold her vows anywhere near the same regard as I do, but for me, I feel like if I begin engaging with another potential partner, or just casual dating, then I am violating my promise to the institution, and for me, that makes me feel like I'm heading down a path of low integrity. When the judge stamps the paper, then I am free to move about. Until then, this man is still locked into a relationship, even though it's only one sided. There is a cost for integrity. Now, that being said, as much as I believe in the institution, and the promises we make, "for better or for worse", it is not a death knell to our internal happiness to have to stay and fight for a relationship that is one sided or that the other partner has checked out of. I fought like hell for over 4 years, but I had to do that for myself, for I couldn't walk away until I knew I had done everything in my power to save the relationship. But relationships can't be saved by just one person. Both have to equally be invested, and if your spouse isn't putting in the work, then I don't see a happy ending here. Why don't you just approach her and bluntly ask if she's willing to do the work. If not, then you have your answer. She may just never be able to "get it", just like my wife wasn't able to. I wish you the best.

I'M DONE! IF I HAD SOMEWHERE TO GO I WOULD.

If she meant this when she said this, then it is cruel on your part to play games with her and get her to stay in what is clearly, unfortunately, a toxic dysfunctional relationship.

I yearn to learn from others who have lived with liars and learn how to cope with them.

Your problem isn’t that you live with a liar, your problem is that you won’t accept it. Completely, totally accept it like you chose it (like you have, and continue to do every minute of every day).

If she was in fact honest, how would you even know it?

She is just a liar about the past. Period. Accept it totally or leave her, or let her go. If you stay with her, then acceptance has to be the path. Anything else leaves you in an endless inner conflict that directly spills into your relationship with her.

When you accept it, you no longer want that thing from her. When you no longer want that, she loses some control over you. Her ability to play all those current stupid games goes away, she loses her power over you. The relationship changes.

As others have said, the only thing you can 100% control is you. Stop trying to control her. Either leave or accept it. Unless you like the pain.

Those same vows and the same thought that my W was ill in a way were what made me want to R. Fortunately, my W started to change on d-day and never stopped.

I understand that you hope your W changes. IMO, you need to keep reminding yourself that you can't change her. You need to keep reminding yourself that nothing you've done in the last 25 years has caused her to decide to change. Nothing you've done in the past 25 years has processed the pain out of your body. So changing yourself is your best bet.

Much of what you've posted fits within the co-dependence end of the spectrum. Have you read Co-Dependent No More or anything else on co-dependence? Have you raised the issue of co-d with your shrinks? It's a possibility.

Honoring marital vows and working through challenges is not the sunk-cost fallacy; it's a deliberate commitment to growing through adversity. I want change. But change comes from honesty and transparency. I will continue to reiterate this until my wife speaks with consistency, shares details, and her affect is congruent with her self-disclosure. I am struggling with her ongoing deception. Her unwillingness or inability to tell the truth is her sickness. I need to learn how to cope while living through this storm.

Friend, how long have you already been weathering this storm?

You can't expect change if there is no change. I'm not necessarily advising abandoning your marriage or your wife. I'm advocating for a change in your approach and attitude toward this. Toward her. You can't make her change, but you can work on doing it for yourself. If you can make some changes to your approach, you might start seeing some change in her. Maybe. It's not guaranteed. In fact I think it's unlikely, but you can't continue on the same course you've been on for years and expect a different result.

it's a deliberate commitment to growing through adversity. I want change. But change comes from honesty and transparency

Great! What growth are you personally achieving through adversity? What change in yourself? How honest are you with yourself, re your motivations, for example?

If you can make some changes to your approach, you might start seeing some change in her.

The key is to make changes to yourself, for yourself. Honestly.

Don’t do it to affect a change in her. Doing that is a manipulation, and at the core of every manipulation is a lie. You’ll know it, and she’ll see it and she’ll know it, and she’ll know that you’re just playing a game of lies.

When you make a change for yourself, excepting things as they are honestly, that will have the biggest effect on her.

Let me repeat that, the thing that you do that is not meant to have an effect on her, but just on yourself we have the biggest effect on her.

[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 5:12 PM, Sunday, September 7th]

low tide

Honoring marital vows and working through challenges is not the sunk-cost fallacy; it's a deliberate commitment to growing through adversity.

I also urge caution with this line of thinking. We make vows, and we try to honor them the best we can. Through thick and thin, rich and poor etc. If our spouse had a gambling addiction, or got cancer, or was in a horrible accident, the vows are still intact because those types of events don't involve violating the original marriage contract.

Unfortunately Adultery is one of the few conditions that render these vows void IMHO.

Marriage vows are a two person thing. Both people need to make them and adhere to them for it to be valid. If one person chooses to break them, they are broken for both people. In other words you can't force someone to be in a relationship they don't want to be in.

The vows specified the terms of the relationship you both were okay with and agreed to. Adultery doesn't fall under the "sickness and health" part. It falls under the "we both agree" part. If a spouse is not adhering to the terms, then they don't agree any longer. The original deal was a "we both agree" deal, and if one person doesn't agree any longer, the original deal is off. You can't force them to adhere to the original deal if they don't want to. You can't drag them through reconciliation, they have to want it. Also you are free to decide if you still want to be in this relationship after they unilaterally changed the terms of the deal.

I don't think a lot of straying partners really think of it like this. They don't seem to really consider the fallout of their choices. They selfishly want to have their cake and eat it too.

Don't get me wrong, I do think it is right to try to salvage the relationship if both people are willing to try, thats exactly what I'm trying to do with my wife, but I wouldn't do it just because of the original vows - as those were deliberately rendered invalid by their choices.