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Well I've pretty comprehensively outlined my stance. I stand by what I've said that's what you're asking. I've read over the post several times and think it's a logically sound argument that represents my thoughts.

Affair fog is merely a sanitised metaphor. It's not real in any true sense of the word.

To illustrate this, consider the experiences of individuals who have endured war, abuse, or even the infidelity itself. They often describe a feeling of being "underwater"—a state of mental cloudiness, confusion, or detachment. Victims of abuse, for instance, could theoretically start saying, "I wasn't thinking clearly; I was underwater at the time," to describe their state during traumatic events.

My argument is that we should call this feeling what it truly is: Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). We already have a precise, unambiguous term for such a state. Using "PTSD" leaves no room for hidden meanings or agendas, unlike the metaphorical "affair fog." It doesn't santize anything. It's doesn't allude to loss of agency or free wil.

Similarly, if you were in a state of limerence, say that. If you were experiencing cognitive dissonance, state that. I'm in no way denying the complex feelings you had while betraying your partner. I'm merely saying affair fog isn't real.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 8:31 PM, Monday, July 21st]

** member to member **

In my experience, 'fog' has been used in these pages as an excuse and as a description.

It's been used as an excuse by new BSes who think they want R and by WSes who haven't become remorseful.

It's been used as a shorthand description by some remorseful WSes while healing, former WSes, and healing or healed BSes.

Personally, I am comfortable describing my W while in her A as 'in a fog'. Nevertheless, I had no trouble holding her to my requirements for R. Of course, that may be because she never tried to minimize her A.

I find it convenient to read and write 'fog' rather than describe it every time. I appreciate the people who use the term and who read it as it's intended.

Context is usually sufficient to tell what a poster intends when they post about affair fog. I need to read more from Searchingforsun to know how she uses the term, but I think BSR and Pippin are pretty clear.

While I can accept that cheating is a result of PTSD for many WSes, the term has the same failing that 'fog' does - it can be a shorthand description, and it can be an excuse. Frankly, IMO 'fog' is a lot clearer description of the WS's state of mind than 'PTSD'.

Besides, if you use 'fog', you can use 'fogged up', too. That usually stays within the boundaries of polite conversation.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 8:45 PM, Monday, July 21st]

That's a fair opinion, and I have no issues with "fog" being used as shorthand. I'm personally uncomfortable with it for the reasons I've outlined, but in the context of it being shorthand, it doesn't really bother me.

However, where I feel I have to speak up is when some members appear to be arguing that it's "real" in any sense outside of a metaphorical shorthand to explain more complex psychological phenomena.

Ultimately, it's a little pedantic, I've ran out of things to say on the matter.

I think of it like the time period where the WS is still in the A mindset, and they're experiencing distorted thinking and emotional confusion.

I've read so much on it and some WSs think of it as part of limerance and blindness to see beyond that but my fWS never experienced limerance.

He didn't love and certainly in a lot of ways didn't even like the AP, but his head was in some kind of fog for sure.

He romanticised the A as a great friendship, even though this woman was ostensibly a psycho.

He lost all moral clarity surrounding that - such as feeling entitled to miss his "friend" or to offer her comfort

He lost all integrity, and lied to me about NC and more.

He was completely irrational. This person was quite literally doing things like threatening him or trying to destroy his career and he couldn't see it fully.

He was very much addicted to what the A gave him. I think this is different for every WS but in my fWS it was the belief in being adored, so amazing someone would try to kill for him, a sense of "coolness" and this kind of love bombing that was completely unnatural.

It took him about 4 months to move past that once AP was no longer physically present, and then I think another year to truly see how nuts he was.

I do see that "fog" as a real thing but rather than being an excuse I just think it's the place WSs end up after a series of decisions turns then into a shit person.

I saw it as addiction, not so much to the A, but more like when people let themselves slide to rock bottom and they're not a person of integrity anymore.

Having an A and sustaining one takes a lot of bad, selfish and destructive choices and the shock of dday isn't always enough to snap them out of it.

I think the answer to "how long" is up to you, because in that destructive, selfish mindset I think they will keep going as long as you let them.

The "fog" is I think also contagious because the blindsided and traumatised BS is in so much shock and pain that they also can't act rationally or often fully act in ways that are best for them.

I second the advice of the 180 for you. If you can get yourself out of the fog, you will start to find your anger and your self worth. Many of us make the mistake you're making to deferring degrees.

My fWS and I are very happily reconciled and I am so happy I stayed but I also deeply regret that I didn't tell him to go f himself much earlier.

For the record, I don't agree that I am trying to distract myself from understanding the deeper, often uncomfortable, psychological drivers of my actions by describing them as in part due to affair fog.

DrSoolers, how do you account for BS like GraceLoves and The1stWife describing their observations of the affair fog? Do you not accept their self-reports?

However, where I feel I have to speak up is when some members appear to be arguing that it's "real" in any sense outside of a metaphorical shorthand to explain more complex psychological phenomena.

This reads like you are positioning yourself as the arbiter of reality. Am I misreading your intention? And/or could you share your definition of reality and how you decide whether or not something is real?

[This message edited by Pippin at 12:10 PM, Wednesday, July 23rd]

how do you account for BS like GraceLoves and The1stWife describing their observations of the affair fog?

Affair fog is a state of mind and is a proven condition (otherwise it wouldn’t have a name). It’s a syndrome of an affair wherein the cheater believes this new person, lifestyle, blah blah blah is the greatest thing since sliced bread

It’s infatuation but more than infatuation IMO.

The OW was heavily tattooed- something my H always stated he despised. She was much younger and a real drama queen. He was feeling like she needed him and he was her knight in shining armor (another recognized syndrome).

I understood more about my H than he did about himself. When he first ended the affair he was a nightmare to live with. Imagine watching your H become moody and depressed b/c he no longer had the OW in his life. In his mind he’s now stuck with his "boring" wife. And it showed.

Suddenly things change and I believe he’s over the affair. He’s come back to reality instead of living in Fantasyland. The truth was the affair re-started and he was back with the OW (unbeknownst to me).

All this to say affair fog is not an excuse or rationalization to cheat. It is what happens to many many cheaters when the BS recognizes why the affair just doesn’t end.

The cheaters are delusional in believing this affair is the answer to their happiness, problems etc.

And it’s something the cheater has to deal with on their own. The BS can threaten D or a number if things but until the cheater comes to reality — nothing will change for the BS.

This reads like you are positioning yourself as the arbiter of reality. Am I misreading your intention? And/or could you share your definition of reality and how you decide whether or not something is real?

I can confirm I'm not positioning myself as the arbiter of reality. I am, however, free to point out reality where I see it distorted by subjective experience or convenient narratives. You are free to say up is down or left is right; it's no skin off my nose. My "up" is up, "down" is down, and "affair fog" is merely metaphorical shorthand.

Affair fog is a state of mind and is a proven condition (otherwise it wouldn’t have a name).

This was precisely why I spoke out. People, please do your own research. Despite its common usage in popular discourse and some anecdotal accounts, "affair fog" is not a recognized psychological or medical condition by any major professional board or diagnostic manual. It is no more a clinically "proven condition" than Neil Young's heart has the chemical symbol AU. "Heart of Gold" reference. It's a metaphor, a way to describe intense emotional and cognitive distortion, but it does not absolve accountability.

I'm not speaking further on the matter as I'm fearful that this is no longer of value to OP.

Editing this such not to keep bumping the thread.

Is "affair fog" simply shorthand for the various character flaws that allow people to cheat, as Dr. Soolers contends?

To expand on this summary, 'affair fog' can be understood as shorthand for a complex interplay of well-documented psychological states and individual traits. It often encompasses phenomena like cognitive dissonance, limerence, and an addiction to infatuation. These mental states can amalgamate with underlying character dynamics such as low self-esteem, narcissistic tendencies, or a compulsive need for novelty or people-pleasing.

@Pippin

Your perspective on "affair fog" often reminds me of the UFO debate. You know how thousands of people claim to have been abducted by aliens? I'd argue a comparable number probably claim to have experienced "affair fog," though, of course, those statistics aren't readily available for either. This comparison immediately brings up a crucial point for me: anecdotal evidence, no matter how heartfelt, isn't the same as scientific proof.

For me, the fallibility of self-reporting is key here. We have millions of sightings of ghosts, religious figures from contradictory religions, Big Foot, fairies, sirens, and aliens. So, depending on how much credence you put on one individual's assertion, it feels like we might live further from reality than I anticipated. This just reinforces that someone genuinely believing their experience doesn't make it an objective fact.

I also see no examples of what I'd call "low inference behavioral observations" when people talk about "affair fog." Low inference means recording observable and measurable actions without adding personal interpretations. All these accounts are inherently biased because the observer is central to the circumstances. How could an observer be more biased than someone going through an affair? As victim or perpetrator. Their own feelings, motivations, and the need to justify their actions are all filtering what they report. It's like asking someone to objectively describe their own dream while they're still dreaming it.

Yes, it's possible that with rigorous research, a framework could one day be put in place to prove that an independent mental state truly occurs only when someone is betraying their partner. Boy, will my face be red if that happens! Until then, though, I'm comfortable saying "affair fog" is not a real disorder or condition. I feel I can dismiss it in the same way I can dismiss fairies, Big Foot, or sirens. The burden of proof for a distinct psychological condition lies squarely on the shoulders of those who claim "affair fog" is one. So I encourage you to start researching a d building that framework.

Now, let's be clear: I'm not denying that people experience intense psychological states during an affair. Phenomena like limerence, the discomfort of cognitive dissonance (which leads to all that rationalizing), or even an addiction to infatuation are well-known and documented in psychology. My point is that "affair fog" isn't a new or separate disorder; it's just a common, convenient label for a complex blend of these existing, recognized psychological processes happening in a specific, highly charged contex

Indeed. Have you ever wondered how your perception of reality is distorted by your subjective experience and narratives convenient to

I concede my belief in facts, science, logic and reason does indeed bias me away from subscribing to individual experiences asserted to me from positions where it suits them to be true.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 9:34 PM, Wednesday, July 23rd]

Infidelity is unequivocally a conscious choice, never an uncontrollable state. To maintain a double life requires significant executive functioning and deliberate decision-making, far from any genuine impairment.

I 100% agree with this. I hate the term "Affair Fog." It's either a delusional state or an addiction, but I believe that what the WS feels during the time of their A is real. Maybe later upon reflection after the A is over they may feel shame for their actions. Similar to looking back on an ex and you no longer feel the feelings you felt while in the R, now feelings have been replaced with regret or disgust. I believe they have grown past the experience and feelings change. Doesn't change the fact that fond feelings were felt for the person at one time.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 4:49 PM, Wednesday, July 23rd]

I haven't dealt with affair fogs myself. Of my two cheaters, one was a serial cheater and he just did it because he was good looking and charming and women threw themselves at him and he didn't throw them back. It was all opportunity. I don't think he cared about them, or particularly about anyone else. Just a real lack of depth. My present spouse did online things and had a long term EA with a prior girl friend. For him, I think it was all about fantasy. We've had a very stressful time together for most of our 25 years and it got very intense for him with his demented father....this was after my demented mother passed, so it's been fun. I think his on line dating BS was about making an alternate persona, being a smooth Don Juan type or sophisticated guy instead of the ordinary Joe he is in most respects. I think he just wanted to feel good about himself and he got that from other people. The EA, well he's known her for 40 years or so and I think they're just very long distance friends, it seems to have cooled off. Frankly, I don't care anymore and haven't for some time. I don't control him and I'm not the marriage police.

The affair fog sounds like a very intense emotional and later physical connection that takes over their lives, like an obsession. I haven't dealt with it, as I say, but my gut feeling is to shock them back down into reality, which probably means filing for divorce. People don't have to go through with it, and even if they do, you can remarry later if you want, but nothing is as bracing as a fresh divorce filing. It says, I'm serious about this, cut this shit out now. If you really hope to keep and revive the marriage, to me it's the best step. They'll just sidestep all the talking and figuring out and pleading and counseling and whatever, with more lies and everything is done to THEIR schedule. You have to disrupt the control and power balance of the relationship by taking that back through action. Inaction always benefits the wayward, action gives power back to you.

Crazyblindsided: "Doesn't change the fact that fond feelings were felt for the person at one time."

This is the thing.....even if their feelings change for their AP and the affair itself, even if they somehow come out of it and hit themselves upside the head "what was I doing" etc....it doesn't change things for the BS. We're still left with the gift bag of shit and what do you do with it. You still know, and always will know that they did this to you, they are capable of something you could not ever imagine. I was so shocked to find my spouse doing multiple on line dating, like WTF??????? He's the last person in the world I would ever have thought this of. So it's not just what he did, it's what he did to ME in doing that, that violation became part of who I am now. Just like any other shitty thing that happens, it does leave a scar of some size, and that's the sticking point. Even if they are so sad about doing it, so apologetic and regretful, they try to do nice things for you, whatever, you still know they were capable of pulling something you would never imagine and I don't think you ever look at them the same way again. That's why it keeps cropping up years later. It does. It could be any trigger even talking too long to the neighbor next door. It could be anything. You don't know everything you need to know to feel fully secure in the relationship....there's always a potential big unknown ready to leap out at you.

So....it's not a once sided thing of their feelings or their fantasies or whatever. All that shit left a mark and it usually doesn't come out. Like an iron scorch, there's always a little bit there no matter how hard you scrub. I think the best time for handling an affair might be before it happens, to have those discussions of what you will do it....and to do something as soon as you become aware rather than hoping it passes. You know now going forward that he or she can always "have fond feelings" for someone else and you don't know how that's going to end up. It's why I like to emphasize taking action as a BS rather than trying to "understand" or wait it out. Action restores the power balance...somewhat...and makes you feel like you have some control of the situation instead of being in an agonizing limbo.

This is a genuinely recognized psychological phenomenon: an involuntary, intense infatuation and obsession with another person, driven by a desperate longing for them to desire you back.

Despite its common usage in popular discourse and some anecdotal accounts, "affair fog" is not a recognized psychological or medical condition by any major professional board or diagnostic manual.

Do I understand correctly that you are asserting that something is real if it has been described by psychological research and framed by a psychological theory, and that if it has not, it is QED not real? Are you aware of how dynamic psychological theorizing is? That the entire category of Asperger's, which helped thousands of people understand their lived experience, is now gone because of a shift that psychologists made? (or rather, a small group of psychologists). The current intense debate about ADHD, whether it is or is not located in the brain, whether it is or is not "real"?

I would place a large bet that the research around limerence is based on qualitative research - self-reports, interviews, questionnaires - followed by psychological theorizing. Perhaps they have drawn blood and found changes in hormonal levels. Perhaps there have been MRIs that have shown brain regions that are consistently activated. As I'm sure you know, a theory is an unprovable framework that explains data (self reports, questionnaires, hormonal levels, MRI scans). The same research methods and theorizing could be used to investigate affair fog, which I think has some marked, definitionally important differences to limerence, though there is probably overlap. Self-reports exist. Low inference behavioral observations by external people exist (on this thread). That the research and theoretical framing hasn't been done does not mean it wouldn't be found if researchers went looking.

I am, however, free to point out reality where I see it distorted by subjective experience or convenient narratives.

Indeed. Have you ever wondered how your perception of reality is distorted by your subjective experience and narratives convenient to you?

OP, please say if you would rather this thread remain focused on your experience. I would immediately defer.

BondJaneBond, Crazyblindsided, The1stWife, GraceLoves, Sisoon, and DrSoolers (though what I am about to write applies to you on other threads and not this one) - I read your personal experiences with heartache for you. I believe that SI is at its best when people describe and share their experience, and listen with grace to the experience of others.

I posted a while back about all of the various acronyms that are used to explain cheating: adhd, CSA, FOO, etc., etc.

Now I have to add "affair fog" to the list (we need an abbreviation).

Is "affair fog" simply shorthand for the various character flaws that allow people to cheat, as Dr. Soolers contends?

Or us it an independent mental disorder, as Pippin insists?

(Apologies to both of you if I have mischaracterized what either of you was saying.)

It doesn’t matter.

They know what they’re doing is wrong.

But at what point do I give up hope? Will he ever see reason? He isn't thinking clearly right now. How long is reasonable for me to wait for him to stop being an idiot? How long did your partner's affair fog last?

Gently, you have to answer these questions for yourself.

I wish there were some rule that We could cite for how long to wait, but there isn't one.

IMO, the best way for the BS to act is to take charge of themself. Ask questions like:

Do I really want to R?
What do I want from my WS?
How will I know I getting what I want or not?
Are WS's actions supportive of R?
Since the WS is imperfect(!), what will I do when they don't give me what I want? or ...
How large a percentage of anti- or non-R behavior will I accept?

How long do you want to wait for him to return to reality?
How will you know?
What will make you give up hope?

There's no right answer to this sort of question that fits everybody. The challenge id to figure out the answers that fit what you want. So let me turn your questions around.

*****
I agree that any excuse for cheating is anathema. But most of us require words in our quest to understand our experience. What words meet universal acceptance?

I don't get what is meant by 'real' and 'not real' about the fog. 'Metaphor' doesn't mean 'unreal'; it's simply using one word for another (in this case, one word for a whole bunch of words). It is not logical, but it sure seems to be observable.

Here's an example: my W told me she gave ow something like an engagement ring, because same sex M was illegal in our state at the time. The engagement wasn't real. The emotions that went with 'engagement' were. The thinking that she could become engaged to ow while being M to me was fog.

IOW, I do think the fog itself is a real phenomenon, but I would not say that a person in the A fog is in touch with reality as fully as possible. If one accepts the feeling of being in love as an observable syndrome and 'real', logic dictates accepting A fog as 'real', too. And if one accepts limerence as a real phenomenon, one must accept the feeling of being in love as real, too, since Tennov defined 'limerence' as 'the feeling of being in love'.

In most contexts on SI, 'fog' is just shorthand - a word that makes it easy to write and read of a state of mins that has many characteristics.

No emotion is inherent in the term 'fog'. If it evokes emotion, that's an important insight for the person whose emotion is triggered, but IMO, it's a lot better to resolve the emotion than to rail against using the term. After all, if one resolves the emotion, one's life gets easier, even though the infidelity that spawned the term 'fog' isn't going away.

nothing is as bracing as a fresh divorce filing

I'm off to add this to the SI quote thread.

But at what point do I give up hope?

I don't think anyone can answer this for you, but I can speak from my own experience in saying that whatever you're hoping for might seem like one thing but it turns out to be another.

Because there's no magic fix, and even if / when he decides he wants to fix the M you are looking at years of really hard work with no guarantee.

We reconciled, but it didn't come cheap. It really didn't and looking back it would have unquestionably been easier to walk away.

So what I'm saying is, in this time of fear and panic your brain will be in denial mode, with a healthy dose of bargaining, where it's desperate to be out of the pain it's in - but that isn't something that comes even when they do come out of the fog.

So a better thing to hope for IMO, is strength, wisdom, calm - things you can learn - even in this agony - to provide for yourself.

Nobody can tell you what's going to happen or how you'll feel about it when it does, but hope isn't best tied to what someone else decides.

When you look back on this in the rear view, when you feel stronger, you'll see that you did the best you could with a terrible situation, and you'll see that it is really just about survival at this point.

You don't need to ask questions of yourself, you just need to take care if yourself.

Hope can be just about coming out the other side, whole, peaceful and happy so I really hope that you can learn to hope for that.

He refuses to call it an affair because he insists that he hasn't slept with her or even kissed her.

This is the hardest type of person to Reconcile with. The ones that won’t admit they are cheating bring nothing to the discussion to even begin to have a conversation with.