SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You appear to think that not divorcing is R. Am I reading your posts right?

I find it difficult to distinguish between staying together and reconciliation. Reconciliation is really quite nebulous. It means different things to different people. Feel free to nail down exactly what this means to you. Is counseling always required for it to be considered reconciliation? What if a wayward partner feels sorry and genuinely tries to never cheat again but doesn't seek therapy? Are we only considering a very specific subset of actions that accounts for reconciliation?

My personal definition of R would be staying together with the aim of never letting cheating happen again by any means necessary. Sometimes that would involve counseling and open phone policies, while other times it might involve forgiving a one-off occasion.

Whereas staying together could be living a sham marriage. It could be never addressing the affair at all. Allowing the cheating to go on as long as it's out of view. etc.

Your posts seem to be based on the theory that BSes have little autonomy and are doomed to black holes of despair.

I believe everyone has some level of autonomy, and this differs from circumstance to circumstance. How much autonomy someone has in an abusive relationship is up for debate. The amount of autonomy one has in a marriage can also be heavily influenced by cultural norms and societal expectations. Does a married woman in the UAE have the same autonomy of a married woman in the UK? I'd argue no. That said, I don’t think everyone is doomed to black holes of despair. I don't feel I've ever said anything in line with this. I'm happy now. As are many others. Feel free to quote me back points like this.

Your tag line implies one can never fully recover. Do I read that right?

I'm not sure trauma can ever be erased—only managed to varying degrees. I believe you can recover in the sense you can recover from cancer. It's not actively killing you but you can see the lasting impact in your dig deep enough.

It looks like DRS can't imagine choosing R from strength.

I can indeed imagine choosing R from strength. I can envision thinking to myself, "I'm going to keep this family together for the good of my kids because they don't deserve to have their chances in life affected by my selfish partner."

That said, I do struggle to imagine another scenario where this would be considered a strength. However, this doesn’t mean you don't need strength to do it. It also doesn't mean that reconciliation can never be the right path for your own happiness. I agree it's a type of strength to have sex with someone who's betrayed you. Its a type of strength to sleep soundly by their side a night. Strength I don't envy but strength never the less.

I’d say, ‘Data, please’ if that wasn’t followed by 'may reoffend.' If you mean 'will reoffend,' show us data about WSes who actively participated in building a new relationship with their BSes. 'May reoffend' is so fuzzy it’s pretty much just an amorphous fear.

I echo your sentiment about fuzzy points when you say "actively participated in building a new relationship." Does this imply that all reoffenders weren’t doing this? It seems like a self-cleaning statistic—only those who don’t reconcile properly, according to a specific, yet-to-be-defined parameter, are labeled as reoffenders.

I reference a peer reviewed statistic regarding reoffending but I suppose it would be impossible to provide a statistic given your requirements.

Statistics don't apply to real life cases. My W will either cheat again or she won't. That's 100% or 0%, not 23.4% (or whatever the actual probability may be). Statistics are useful sometimes. But they're not very useful in predicting what a specific BS will experience in their specific situation.

This is true of every statistic. When you go into surgery, and a doctor provides you with a statistical chance of recovery, that information will consider various relational factors such as age, gender, and weight.

So, if you were listening to a doctor pre-surgery delivering this information, would you disregard these statistics? You might think, "They aren't about me specifically." After all, these statistics can't account for my unique health factors, like my immune system. Ultimately, I will either recover or I won't.

Stats are a useful measure of how likely someone is to reoffend generally. I personally do not think cheaters are all as unique as you might think. Read enough off these cases and you see trends. They say the same things, for the same reasons. Quite the coincidence given we are all so individual. Why do you think so many cases are so similar given your reasoning?

While I agree it is difficult to maintain objective, logical thinking without emotions being contributing factors, I think it’s wise to aim for that approach, especially in circumstances where you could be manipulated by an abuser.

My previous statement remains unchanged. You can manipulate emotions, but you can't manipulate facts.

But M is a lot more than just fidelity. I get the idea that people who argue for D as the default do so because fidelity in itself towers above everything else, and infidelity wipes out all previous love and support.

That makes fidelity into the only real factor they care about. Making D the default throws the rest of the M …um… out with the bath water. At least that’s how I understand the D-is-default position.

Having a minimum requirement for what is acceptable in a relationship is not the same as being the only real factor someone cares about. Speaking personally, if you can't maintain fidelity, the conversation about the relationship ceases. That’s not to say a partner could be loyal and still not be meant for you due to various other factors. Similarly, just because they are loyal doesn’t mean they are a good partner. It's simply the minimum requirement for marriage.

But fidelity isn’t the only minimum requirement. For example, I would say not actively being a criminal could be one, as could not showing signs of overt sadism or having illegal sexual interests.

I think it would be equally rational to divorce on these grounds as well. Theoretically, you could make the same argument about any minimum requirement: "Yes, they beat your neighbor to death, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater—it was a one-time mistake. The love was real. Remember how you laughed?"

Please note, I'm not equating infidelity to murder; I'm using the implied logic in the argument against itself to illustrate how it’s a fairly meaningless statement.

what you said feels more accurate and far closer to a full picture to me than looking at all post-cheating sex as abusive, demeaning, or rooted in cuckold/degradation fetish

My only point on this was that hysterical bounding can be dangerous and counter-productive. I want to see the opportunities for abusive waywards ability to manipulate their partner minimized. I'll admit I'm not experienced on the topic of hysterical bounding and was speculating on the psychological impacts and rational.

Lets have a little sympathy here. I understand the push for autonomy and ultimately the BS can do what they want but can we please just try to remember what that betrayal felt like. Imagine someone who has been cheated on for years by someone they thought they'd spend their life with. The mother of their children. They are broken. Self esteem at an all time low. Question the nature of their entire relationship. Questioning their sexual ability and manhood. Now whilst they need time to reflect on what's right for them, someone is repeatedly throwing sex at them.

They are already emotionally all over the place, it's the last thing they need to heal. They may well not be thinking clearly and have the strength to turn this down.

Sex bounds people. Its can be used as a desperate attempt to keep the betrayed around. How difficult would it be from this mental state of low self worth and belief to say to ones self - I deserve more than this? Turn down the sex and move on. This is why I'm harping on about it. This is my fear.

I agree with HikingOut when she said it's likely a primal response but that doesn't downplay the worrying psychological factors at play. It's entirely reasonable to then associate betrayal with intense emotional sex. Does that seem healthy generally to anyone?

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 3:19 PM, Tuesday, April 15th]

I find it difficult to distinguish between staying together and reconciliation. Reconciliation is really quite nebulous. It means different things to different people. Feel free to nail down exactly what this means to you. Is counseling always required for it to be considered reconciliation? What if a wayward partner feels sorry and genuinely tries to never cheat again but doesn't seek therapy? Are we only considering a very specific subset of actions that accounts for reconciliation?

My personal definition would be staying together with the aim of never letting cheating happen again by any means necessary. Sometimes that would involve counseling and open phone policies, while other times it might involve forgiving a one-off occasion.

Reconciliation to me is n outcome in which:

The ws has done a lot of work on themselves to the point the change is undeniable. There are lots of factors that go into cheating. They have spent time identifying and working on each one. This results in a higher self awareness, and often more emotional maturity and ability to self soothe.

They have been open and answered all the questions truthfully. They have made amends, continue to make amends by changed behavior. Trust has been intentionally rebuilt.

The bs has worked on their own healing.

Deep communication has occurred for a very long period of time, often years, to the place there is a firm understanding of one another.

And the terms of the marriage is often changed, but not always. What I notice about reconciliation stories the most, and it’s true for my marriage as well is that both parties feel a larger freedom in the relationship to exercise boundaries, create more win-wins instead of more sacrifice, and have abandoned any toxicity in the relationship. Communication is stronger, the purpose of remaining in the marriage is based on love and desire rather than obligation.

People who have reconciled intend to stay married and the presence of their marriage may not be based on the initial reasons for staying together such as kids. Yes, that still may be important but people who reconcile are still together because they want to be. They are happy in the marriage.

Staying out of obligation, and continuing to do so for years on end with no resolution and just stuffing their feelings about it is not reconciling.

I believe everyone has some level of autonomy, and this differs from circumstance to circumstance. How much autonomy someone has in an abusive relationship is up for debate. The amount of autonomy one has in a marriage can also be heavily influenced by cultural norms and societal expectations. Does a married woman in the UAE have the same autonomy of a married woman in the UK? I'd argue no. That said, I don’t think everyone is doomed to black holes of despair. I don't feel I've every said anything in line with this. Feel free to quote me back points like this.

Not all marriages that experience infidelity had been abusive up to that point. Yes, infidelity is abusive. Sometimes that period of time is spurred by life circumstances the ws could not deal with. And it’s a matter of building character and strength combined with new learned coping skills.

I will also point out that if the women I have talked to personally who cheated not a small percentage of them were actually abused by their Bs. I wouldn’t say the majority, but just because someone is a bs doesn’t make them a good person or spouse. It doesn’t give license to cheat, I am only saying your framing is almost 100 percent of the time that these bs have been in long term abusive relationships and are susceptible to manipulative behaviors.

I think there are bs’s who are in toxic relationships and may have been worn down by the abusive behaviors. But oftenwhat I see when we get new bs’s is they come from all different kinds of relationships, and many are mad enough about it they aren’t taking any shit. We get a gradient of those just like there are different gradient levels of ws.

I'm not sure trauma can ever be erased—only managed to varying degrees. I believe you can recover in the sense you can recover from cancer. It's not actively killing you but you can see the lasting impact in your dig deep enough.

I do not think trauma is ever erased either. I do think a lot of growth can come from Trauma, as well as strength. I would never advocate trauma to be a good thing, but I see bs’s who are living a life of peace and happiness in various marital outcomes. Healing is possible.

I can indeed imagine choosing R from strength. I can envision thinking to myself, "I'm going to keep this family together for the good of my kids because they don't deserve to have their chances in life affected by my selfish partner."

I think often this is a stance a new bs takes. Some will stay committed to that idea, and stay until the kids are raised. Others, as time goes in they slowly build back a marriage and the reasons they stay change.

That said, I do struggle to imagine another scenario where this would be considered a strength. However, this doesn’t mean you don't need strength to do it. It also doesn't mean that reconciliation can never be the right path for your own happiness. I agree it's a type of strength to have sex with someone who's betrayed you. Its a type of strength to sleep soundly by their side a night. Strength I don't envy but strength never the less.

Generally, I have noticed and this is not a rule, but often the couples who reconcile have a strong foundation built on more than sexual fidelity. They have been best friends, have had many happy years together.

We had a great 20 year marriage at the time of my affair. I see my own infidelity as completely my own failure not precipitated by my husband or my marriage. It happened in the throws of an existential crisis.

So my husband was faced with, well do I throw away this marriage that I have deeply enjoyed for 20 years and start again? There was no right answer that he saw himself happy with. Part of reconciliation is reconciling with yourself what you want. And in an ideal world, he hoped to continue to have a happy marriage. Why? Because the first stages of grief are bargaining and denial. Almost very bs will oscillate between those things while being pounded by deep emotions.

The process one goes through will evolve why they stay. In my book, I didn’t want us to stay married if he couldn’t a)be happy and b) love me again. I wanted us to be in the marriage because we want to be, no obligation. Part of my amends was signing over our real estate portfolio in the divorce papers. I was fully prepared to give him a very fair and amicable divorce.

All this to say, my husband showed no weakness in our process. He didn’t accept anything less than what would be agreeable to him at any point in our process. (

what you said feels more accurate and far closer to a full picture to me than looking at all post-cheating sex as abusive, demeaning, or rooted in cuckold/degradation fetish

My only point on this was that hysterical bounding can be dangerous and counter-productive. I want to see the opportunities for abusive waywards ability to manipulate their partner minimized. I'll admit I'm not experienced on the topic of hysterical bounding and was speculating on the psychological impacts and rational.

Again though, HB is often fueled by the bs. Was I supposed to say "no sex, it might confuse you?" Can you imagine a bh coming here and saying that is what his ws told him? They would have a field day with that it would be "she doesn’t love you, she loves your wallet." There aren’t good answers for how a ws exists inside a marriage hanging by a thread due to their own bad decisions. Your husband is giving you a chance, the best one can do is grab in with both hands and do our best with that chance.

Reality is my husband wanted to see desire for him was possible. He wanted to see me fight for our relationship, and then from that decide if I was fighting hard enough for him to consider fighting for it too. I see bs’s do that here all the time. If I had not fought, he would have assumed I didn’t want it and he would have done nothing further to save it. You see this seemingly 100 percent of the time as manipulation.

The issue is it can be a manipulation. Discernment is hard.

I do believe there is a type of cheater who does not have any intentions of changing or working on themselves. They knowingly continue to abuse, gaslight, and get you to be complacent. They likely have been abusive in some way or another their entire relationship. Those ws often have other issue like financial infidelity.

I do not see those reconciliations supported or encouraged in this site. Not at least without the ws making a full recovery in all fronts.

I am more of the position that there may be marriages worth saving and some that are not. Some ws may simply have too far to go.

I agree with HikingOut when she said it's likely a primal response but that doesn't downplay the worrying psychological factors at play. It's entirely reasonable to then associate betrayal with intense emotional sex. Does that seem healthy generally to anyone?

If you know it’s primal, then it’s almost at an uncontrollable level for the bs. Is it healthy? I don’t know, I mean it seems to hit a majority of couples that way. I would not say all, if I had to guess based on antedoctal experience I would put it at 70 percent. I am not sure if it’s a good or bad or neutral thing. I just think it’s natural and it’s more of a situation where I wouldn’t shame a bs for that being their response.

I think a ws may think they could exploit that potentially. Probably the category of cheater that I mentioned above. More often, I think it’s a temporary relief for both sides in a very emotionally confusing time after initially finding out. It’s early days stuff.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:53 PM, Tuesday, April 15th]

I find it difficult to distinguish between staying together and reconciliation. Reconciliation is really quite nebulous. It means different things to different people. Feel free to nail down exactly what this means to you. Is counseling always required for it to be considered reconciliation? What if a wayward partner feels sorry and genuinely tries to never cheat again but doesn't seek therapy? Are we only considering a very specific subset of actions that accounts for reconciliation?

I do think a number of people equate staying married with reconciliation, which can contribute to the confusion for people who never chose to repair their relationship.

I think the term restoration works better for couples who have worked hard to get back to a safe, healthy and happy marriage.

Good counseling really helped us, but it can be hard to find. In our case, our MC revealed at the end of our last session that he was a BS, and his M ended in divorce. He raised his daughter on his own. His method wasn’t about trying to rescue the M, it was to be sure we both chose the relationship from a position of strength. My wife’s esteem was a part of her fall and fail, and as many have already noted, the esteem hit taken by any BS is very traumatic.

I can’t speak for other recovered couples, but I do think counseling was a substantial part of our early healing, the rest we had to do on our own.

Ultimately, I think either partner who stays out of fear or financial reasons or even for the kids is setting themselves up for misery.

I'm not sure trauma can ever be erased—only managed to varying degrees. I believe you can recover in the sense you can recover from cancer. It's not actively killing you but you can see the lasting impact in your dig deep enough.

So, you’re saying you are not a big fan of Friedrich Nietzsche, who offered up, "That which does not kill me makes me stronger."

I’m not a huge fan of Nietzsche myself, but between his take on human resilience and my six years in the US Marine Corps, I know in my case that overcoming adversity and perseverance over trauma and negative experiences are good things.

I wouldn’t wish infidelity on anyone, but conquering that grief and being a much stronger person on the other side of it, is also a net positive for me.

All that said, I agree that trauma is never completely erased, and maybe it shouldn’t be.

I’m comfortable hating the A and that it happened. I’m also comfortable not allowing it to define me or my spouse. I do think most of us are capable of being far more than our worst decisions, worst moments, and I think that where the possibility of R begins.

As always, it seems we agree on a lot. Yet, I often feel like I say that only for you to disagree! Hahaha.

I think the main difference between us is that I strongly advocate for airing on the side of caution in case a wayward spouse turns out to be abusive. Others may argue for trusting your judgment, and while it's true that not all wayward spouses are abusive, I still prefer to take a cautious approach.

Generally, I have noticed—and this is not a rule—that often the couples who reconcile have a strong foundation built on more than sexual fidelity. They have been best friends and have had many happy years together.

I believe that any successful relationship must, as a necessity, be built on more than just sexual fidelity. The fact that a relationship encompasses more than this basic requirement does not, in my opinion, negate the importance of that base level of commitment. My current partner and I are not together solely because we are sexually loyal; we share a whole host of interests, principles, a sense of humor, and mutual respect.

All of these elements do not diminish the requirements of a relationship; rather, they underscore their importance.

Again though, HB is often fueled by the bs. Was I supposed to say "no sex, it might confuse you?"

This poses a difficult question. If HB is fueled by BS, then perhaps not. While I believe it's in no one's best interest, this understanding would at least remove the abusive manipulative element.

I do believe there is a type of cheater who does not have any intentions of changing or working on themselves. They knowingly continue to abuse, gaslight, and get you to be complacent. They likely have been abusive in some way or another their entire relationship. Those ws often have other issues like financial infidelity.

This is precisely my concern. In a rocked mental state, we should err on the side of caution. No, not every wayward spouse will use HB as a manipulation tactic, but some certainly will.

If you know it’s primal, then it’s almost at an uncontrollable level for the bs. Is it healthy? I don’t know.

Primal does not equate to uncontrollable. One could argue that the sexual lust that drives infidelity is primal; yet, many people manage to control these urges. If we can reach a consensus on whether such impulses are good or bad, it seems logical to recommend that pushing for control over these primal urges is generally advisable.

Oldwounds

Ultimately, I think either partner who stays out of fear or financial reasons or even for the kids is setting themselves up for misery.

I'm suggesting drawing reasoning from these factors is noble. Not fool proof. This will not do away with any of the hard work required to reconcile. Theoretically you can chose any reason to reconcile and if you follow the recommended path and use the correct tools be successful.

I'm simply stating that having kids or financial concerns to be motivating factors for R is not wrong at all. It's logical.

I would never reconcile. I'm not built for it for many reasons. It's against my principles. I'm pragmatic enough to know there are thousands of other compatible partners out there for me so why stick to one who didn't respect/love/care(fill in the blank here) enough to not follow the base level requirements for our relationship.

All of that said if I were to reconcile, the only factor that could motivate me would be kids. The kids would be the motivation the work would be genuine. If I was going to do it, I would do it all in for them. I would do the therapy, read the books and counselling. I'd go to ST. Anything.

What started all this on was a comment that this is somehow not a decent enough reason. To me, It's one of the deepest and most meaningful reasons.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 4:33 PM, Tuesday, April 15th]

As always, it seems we agree on a lot. Yet, I often feel like I say that only for you to disagree! Hahaha.

I like exploring philosophical discussions, so you will simply find me participating in them. The agree/disagree part is really just the nuances that exist that may not be part of a solid logic thing. There are a lot of transitional states people experience after infidelity that are hard to relate to with logic. I think most bs ise logic when possible but there is a lot of data being analyzed at the very beginning of finding out right when emotions are biggest.

I think the main difference between us is that I strongly advocate for airing on the side of caution in case a wayward spouse turns out to be abusive. Others may argue for trusting your judgment, and while it's true that not all wayward spouses are abusive, I still prefer to take a cautious approach.

I see it as this- the bs has a historical rendering of their ws that we do not have. They know that person in a way that we can’t.

I trust the bs to go through their own process. Often the ws who intends to abuse their spouse and their chances easily gives themselves away with a bs who is already in super high alert.

I try and not make assumptions only because after almost 8 years, I have learned that we all project our own fears and experiences and while we all have similarities in our experiences, every single case of cheating is unique in its own way.

I also think that the only thing we can do is trust the bs in their process. You have mentioned wwTL, and he has acknowledged he still likely would do nothing different though it took him 5 years to leave. I think often a very committed bs has to have time to go through motions and experiences to determine their course. I simply respect that. I also try and respect the fact that they still love this person who has hurt them so deeply.

Generally, I have noticed—and this is not a rule—that often the couples who reconcile have a strong foundation built on more than sexual fidelity. They have been best friends and have had many happy years together.

I believe that any successful relationship must, as a necessity, be built on more than just sexual fidelity. The fact that a relationship encompasses more than this basic requirement does not, in my opinion, negate the importance of that base level of commitment. My current partner and I are not together solely because we are sexually loyal; we share a whole host of interests, principles, a sense of humor, and mutual respect.

All of these elements do not diminish the requirements of a relationship; rather, they underscore their importance.

I agree, and sometimes they underscore the importance to the ws who has made some very bad decisions. I would tell you…and you may think I am an anomaly and dismiss this…I am now the safest, healthiest partner my husband could pick. I would never do what I did again, I believe I traumatized myself through my own bad decisions. I have great clarity now that I wish I had obtained in some other way. I appreciate him and love him in a way I would have been incapable of before. All because I put a lot of mindful and intentional work on myself. Good luck finding that in the dating pool. I say that humbly, because I know it comes with other bullshit that he may never have experienced with a new person. But I agree it underscores the importance.

I think that importance is so primary in couples that truly reconcile that it would look the way you look at it now. No more chances. Honestly, if my husband so much as lies to me (or vice versa) our marriage would be over. We didn’t come this far to lower a standard like that.

In other words, while we talk about all this stuff that is gray I think reconciled couples have a lot more black and white. We certainly do. I know neither of us will ever go through the rigors of something like this again. If one of us cheats we do so knowing that there will be no coming back from it. Cheating for me partially had to do with not a strong attachment to those values, which is not surprising given that I have seen him have sex with people in the past. My values on that are very strong now with a sense of purpose behind them.

Again though, HB is often fueled by the bs. Was I supposed to say "no sex, it might confuse you?"

This poses a difficult question. If HB is fueled by BS, then perhaps not. While I believe it's in no one's best interest, this understanding would at least remove the abusive manipulative element.

I see HB and sex bombing are two different things. Maybe you have to experience HB to understand it. I don’t know. But we can experience hb over other things besides betrayal, it’s a panic reaction.

I do believe there is a type of cheater who does not have any intentions of changing or working on themselves. They knowingly continue to abuse, gaslight, and get you to be complacent. They likely have been abusive in some way or another their entire relationship. Those ws often have other issues like financial infidelity.

This is precisely my concern. In a rocked mental state, we should err on the side of caution. No, not every wayward spouse will use HB as a manipulation tactic, but some certainly will.

If you know it’s primal, then it’s almost at an uncontrollable level for the bs. Is it healthy? I don’t know.

Primal does not equate to uncontrollable. One could argue that the sexual lust that drives infidelity is primal; yet, many people manage to control these urges. If we can reach a consensus on whether such impulses are good or bad, it seems logical to recommend that pushing for control over these primal urges is generally advisable.

I could never compare hb and affair sex. Sorry. I can’t address it under that framing. Though, I readily admit sex was not my primary urge in having the affair, and when it did happen it was performative rather than this exciting experience. So that’s all I will say in that front.

I do think some therapists advise against it. And I am not saying we shouldn’t advise against it, it’s a form of trauma bonding. I think I am just very sensitive about shaming a bs for some things they choose that are just part of human nature. Again, it’s me respecting whatever process the bs takes because people do not know what to do with all the pain. I generally think it’s not sustainable anyway.

Let me put it another way…we have had bs’s who drink a little more after dday. What do we say? You need to work on that. HB, drinking,etc, is just an attempt to self sooth. Most bs’s will transition into learning better ways to self soothe. Like I said this is early days stuff, no one goes in fully armed with what to do because they don’t think they will ever be faced with it.

So I think I am just advocating that we not shame people who are having the worst days of their life and have the response to self sooth with sex with their ws. Expecting people under very deep emotional distress to behave and decide perfectly is not realistic.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:16 PM, Tuesday, April 15th]

What started all this on was a comment that this is somehow not a decent enough reason. To me, It's one of the deepest and most meaningful reasons.

I think it’s a common and good reason people try. But I think it’s not what gets you over the finish line. A good reconciliation is when the bs has really decided they want to stay for them.

There are lots of good reasons to try and I agree this would be one of the top that we see. But if you can not become personally happy in the relationship again, kids are not going to save it. R to me would be you would want to stay even after empty nest.

We had an empty nest, so there are plenty of reason that might get you trying.

My personal definition of R would be staying together with the aim of never letting cheating happen again by any means necessary.

I'd say R requires:

WS heals WS - changes from cheater to good partner - almost definitely requires therapy, though I'm sure WSes do the work on their own. This basically amounts to identifying the self-talk that enabled the cheating and replacing it with self talk that enables/supports doing the 'next right thing.'

BS heals BS - processes feelings of anger, grief, fear, and shame out of their body - this usually requires overcoming resistance to getting self-esteem up to where it should be, and the resistance is usually very difficult to overcome.

Both partners participate in defining what their M will be going forward.

Both partners raise issues so they can reach resolutions acceptable to both partners.

It seems like a self-cleaning statistic—only those who don’t reconcile properly, according to a specific, yet-to-be-defined parameter, are labeled as reoffenders.

It seems like a self-cleaning statistic—only those who don’t reconcile properly, according to a specific, yet-to-be-defined parameter, are labeled as reoffenders.

Yeah, in some ways. OTOH, once one defines what R is for themself, it's not as self-cleaning as it seems.

While I agree it is difficult to maintain objective, logical thinking without emotions being contributing factors, I think it’s wise to aim for that approach, especially in circumstances where you could be manipulated by an abuser.

My previous statement remains unchanged. You can manipulate emotions, but you can't manipulate facts.

Facts can most definitely be manipulated. Facts MUST be manipulated. In describing a phenomenon one has to choose where to start and where to end. One has to choose words. Facts do not stand on their own when they're described.

Many years ago, the supposedly neutral Gartner reviewer praised Hitachi for delivering a a great new device that was bound to be stable because 75% of its coding was carried over from the previous version. Around the same time, but in a different issue of The Gartner Report, he castigated IBM for introducing a competing device that was dull and old fashioned because only 25% of the coding was new. Same facts, different spin. (BTW, we bought the Hitachi stuff, and it didn't come close to meeting its performance specs. By luck, we had it tested, and they fixed their code for us and for all their other buyers. Gartner's guy blew it. No performance problems were reported with the IBM device.)

Thinking that objectivity is possible blinds one to the power of emotion. IMO, your whole approach to R is emotional, and it's probably your emotions that keep you from understanding R. If a solution that works for some people is abhorrent to a person, there's likely to be a strong emotional component at work. If that's the case, it benefits that person to realize strong emotions are at work, and they probably are coloring the logic.

I don't think there's any requirement to 'understand R' in general, but I do think it makes sense to believe - or at least accept as possibly true - what people in R say about it.

And if one comments on R, having some understanding of R would seem to be a requirement.

In addition, I object to arguing that R is not possible when one doesn't understand R.

*****

Personally, I believe any M resolution - D, R, staying for the kids/convenience/finances/phase of the moon - can come primarily from strength or primarily from weakness.

Here's an example of choosing R from strength: I still want her, and I think she's a good bet for the long term, so I'm going to choose R. If R stops looking good, I'll choose another path.

I think the Fear vs. Reality thread in the D/S forum is very insightful about choosing D primarily from strength.

It may be that the difference between strength and weakness lies in considering multiple options AND having a plan B ready to be activated if the one chosen first doesn't work.

Thinking that objectivity is possible blinds one to the power of emotion. IMO, your whole approach to R is emotional, and it's probably your emotions that keep you from understanding R. If a solution that works for some people is abhorrent to a person, there's likely to be a strong emotional component at work. If that's the case, it benefits that person to realize strong emotions are at work, and they probably are coloring the logic.

I disagree with the assessment that my emotions are coloring my logic regarding "R." If this were true, I would not advocate for its use in any situation. On the contrary, I recommend "R" when I believe it is the logically sound choice. My interactions in this thread, such as my discussions with HikingOut, demonstrate my willingness to accept logically sound arguments irrespective of stance.
My rejections to argument has generally came in response to I perceive as intangible and irrational theories. I acknowledge that these theories may hold validity for others.

While I don't believe my emotions cloud my judgment, I recognize that my negative feelings might occasionally manifest in my word choice, potentially affecting the tone of my communication. This is an area I am actively trying to improve, as I understand it is separate from the substance of my arguments.
Specifically, I acknowledge that my strong negative reaction to the concept of reconciliation is irrational. I have no personal stake in such situations and understand that reconciliation can be a valid path towards positive outcomes and genuine happiness for some individuals. Therefore, I consciously try not to let this personal distaste influence my opinions or advice.

Despite this intellectual understanding, I experience a visceral reaction of disgust and pity when I hear about individuals who have suffered deep betrayal choosing to reconcile. I have witnessed this in many others. It seems to scale with the severity of the betrayal. I am genuinely curious about the root of this subconscious response. Nevertheless, I work hard to ensure t emotional response does not bias my perspectives or recommendations. That would be highly hypocritical of me.

While I don't believe my emotions cloud my judgment, I recognize that my negative feelings might occasionally manifest in my word choice, potentially affecting the tone of my communication. This is an area I am actively trying to improve, as I understand it is separate from the substance of my arguments.

This is a good example of self awareness, I think what you are describing does often make you sound a little judgmental of bs’s who go the reconciliation route.I am sure that is not your intention. Probably another contributing factor to people reading you this way is when we are in philosophical discussions, rather than maybe a specific case, anyone participating may fall into creating generalizations. (Myself included)

I think you can hear me trying to navigate that when I say things to you like there are a gradient in ws’s or in bs’s.

I have caught on to the idea that your concern is for one specific group- the bs who is actively being abused by a particularly unrepentant ws. Those cases exist. However, it may help if you can see there are plenty scenarios in which this isn’t the case. Probably at least an equal amount if my antidotal reading is correct.

Cheating happens in all kinds of marriages. And believe it or not some ws’s have a good baseline as a good person or spouse. They have come to a place in which they have acted on their worst instincts, made horrible, irrevocable decisions.

Most ws when faced with dday immediately want to control the outcome. They want to save the marriage. An apology with no changed behavior is continuing abuse. I think we see that one often. But we also see many who really want to work on themselves, who are gob smacked by what they did, and who will do what is needed. The problem is for some time both of these types of ws may sound manipulative. I think I probably did try and push things in my favor at times, but at the same time I walked the walk and haven’t pushed anything after I had a chance to heal a little in that first eight months.

Most people are not all good or all bad. I personally have been with my husband for almost 30 years. I have way better of a track record than not. I genuinely love him and always have. I do not think it was loving to cheat on him. I never lied to him outside of the affair. And yet if he wanted to divorce tomorrow because of it, I would respect it. Because I do not believe that anyone gets a pass on cheating, no matter how much they tried to make amends.

I am not trying to convince you of what I do or don’t deserve. In fact, I agree with anyone who says I didn’t deserve another chance. He gives me that grace because he loves me and in his eyes I bring far more benefit to him. He told me just this past weekend that I fulfill his life. I am not saying that to toot my own horn. I am saying it because he chose it for his own reasons that benefit him. I am not saying that in a negative way, I am trying to illustrate he chose to do it for him, not because I manipulate him, or because I have convinced him of anything, or because he feels badly for me, or any of those things.

What I am trying to say is your stereotypes about ws is what causes you to come across judgmental of the bs. Maybe it’s from you being in other forums and I haven’t seen as much variance. Because what I find about this site is we have many bs who are more like my husband. They are there because they choose to be with eyes wide open. It’s in their benefit in some way to do so.

Not every bs has this evil ws, but more like one who temporarily lost their way. Maybe that would help you at least see why not all bs are blind, timid, gritting their teeth trying to fall asleep with their spouse next to them. There are many who are there on their own accord with no one manipulating them into it.

I am just one person, but there are lots of others like me. This site used to have way more ws and many of them who stayed around were a lot like me. I am just an old timer here whose peers have all moved on and left. There were many before me who helped me find my way.

And as far as the bs on this site, there are too many bad ass ones to name. And some of them who are trying to navigate this shit show, they are bad asses in training. Most all of us who come to this site, ws and bs alike, are lost in that first 6-12 months. We all make a lot of mistakes during that time. But I have witnessed most of us do evolve. And as that happens you will see the divorces or reconciliation start.

I think there are a ton of couples who just rugsweep it. And that to me is the biggest predictor of a bs who comes here years later who never healed, or the ws who reoffends.

Bs heals bs. Ws heals ws. And if that is successful they will be able to repair the marriage. And that, takes the kind of strength by both parties that you will never find in a stereotype.

[This message edited by hikingout at 11:30 PM, Tuesday, April 15th]

I have caught on to the idea that your concern is for one specific group—the bs who is actively being abused by a particularly unrepentant ws. Those cases certainly exist. However, it may help if you can recognize that there are plenty of scenarios in which this isn’t the case. From my anecdotal perspective, there are probably at least an equal number of cases where the dynamics differ.

I agree that other cases exist, but my primary concern remains for those who are being abused. In my opinion, you see enough instances of that here. Yes, there are others who truly want to reconcile, but they typically start from a stronger position than the betrayed spouses I'm watching out for.

Cheating happens in all kinds of marriages. And believe it or not, some ws’s have a good baseline as good people or spouses. They have reached a point where they acted on their worst instincts and made horrendous, irrevocable decisions.

Not every bs has an evil ws; more often, the ws is someone who temporarily lost their way. Maybe that perspective can help you understand why not all bs are blind, timid individuals gritting their teeth to fall asleep next to their spouses. Many are in their situation of their own accord, without anyone manipulating them into it.

These points are difficult for me to accept. I suppose it truly comes down to one’s view of morality and what defines a good person. Can a good person commit an unspeakably immoral act? This is a complex discussion, one that philosophers have debated for years, and honestly, there isn’t a definitive answer.

Injecting some common sense into this conversation, if we accept that an act can be so egregious that it overrides a lifetime of good, the discussion shifts to whether infidelity constitutes such an act and more specifically the nature of the infidelity.

To illustrate this point, consider Jimmy Saville, a UK TV and radio host who likely performed more charitable acts than any other British man in history. He raised millions of pounds and helped thousands of people, building hospitals and saving lives. Yet, it was later revealed that he was a serial child molester. We can all agree that this discovery eclipses his prior accomplishments, rendering his otherwise saint-like life irrelevant.

If we accept this premise, we must ask ourselves: Is cheating bad enough to erase the good attributed to the wayward spouse? Does it negate the goodness of the marriage? There is no easy answer. For me, often, the answer is yes (not always though); for others, perhaps no. It's clear to me that it's is a case-by-case situation; it's a scale. Now irrespective on your perspective of reconciliation, you'd be hard pressed to define someone who had a one-night stand is evil off the back of the act itself. Even if you chose not to reconcile with them. A case I often reference and given he's outwardly told me he doesn't mind me referencing it, WTL's could perhaps fit this category. In his case, he was adamant his wife was not a bad person. It happened in such a short space of time, maybe she had just lost her way. Snapped out of it. Now in that case, it didn't matter, his temperament (a lot like mine) as well as the graphic nature of the short term affair was too much to overcome but he maintains she is in the lost their way camp. Personally I think having unprotected anal sex in your martial bed is pushing the very limits of lost your way but that's his perspective.

On the other end of the spectrum, I’m reminded that it may be in poor taste to quote specific users’ cases, but if we focus on a relatively well-known example here on SI—a situation where the wayward engaged in a long-term emotional and physical affair with a colleague, fetishizing the humiliation of the betrayed spouse and belittling them—this exemplifies a different level of betrayal. They created a ritual of sexual acts that the bs was not permitted to partake in, and upon discovery, the wayward suddenly transformed into the "perfect" partner who merely "lost their way." Think of all the deception at play, think about the times they came home fresh from the betrayal only to welcome their partner. Think of the times they texted or called their partner only to put the phone down and pleasure another person. Now, to the best of my knowledge, they reconciled. I’m not judging; I’m simply stating that this was not a case of someone who lost their way. it was a form of fetishized abuse, regardless of whether it ended in confrontation. So in this instance, I would strongly argue - yes, they are a bad person.

To summarize my point, I believe that the context of the cheating can dictate whether the person is genuinely "bad." Just as I believe that even the most charitable man in the world can tarnish his legacy through horrendous acts.

Do I think in your or your husband cases it makes you are bad people? From the details you've shared with me, no I do not. That being said, from my own perspective, I would say the split of cases I've read trends towards bad. I say that on the basis of the above theory I have outlined. I don't think these cases are remotely as rare as you claim. I think a good argument could be made that they are the majority. Though, this in anecdotal. That's just my own personal perspective on the cases I've read though, through the lens of my own morality.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 10:28 AM, Wednesday, April 16th]

I have remained off this thread, but find it very interesting.

I feel that DRSOOLERS sums up my views exactly.

In another thread about whether once a cheater, always a cheater I used a very poor analogy of whether once a smoker, always a smoker. I said it would be very easy for me to take up the habit of smoking since I had been a habitual smoker in the past even though it has been almost 42 years since I quit smoking. However, would we say that someone who just smoked their first cigarette and became sick from smoking that cigarette is now addicted to smoking? Probably not.

I summed up that post by stating that I believe that someone who just had a ONS and became overcome with shame and confessed to the BS could possibly be a good candidate for reconciliation. On the other hand, a WS who had a longer time affair or affairs and found that they loved the taste of forbidden, taboo fruit would probably be very hard pressed to develop remorse versus regret... they might always remember how wonderful that fruit tasted.

I think I also agree with DRSOOLERS that a young couple with children might try reconciliation for the children's sake. I think back to the 1960s when my wife and I had two young children at home. I was just starting out in my career and she was a SAHM changing diapers. If she cheated on me I think I might have tried reconciliation, not only for the sake of the children, but because we did not have the financial wherewithal to keep up two households.

Just my opinion.

[This message edited by lrpprl at 2:30 PM, Wednesday, April 16th]

If we accept this premise, we must ask ourselves: Is cheating bad enough to erase the good attributed to the wayward spouse?

Well it’s not a trial by jury. The bs is who decides this, and we need to respect their decisions because they are the one out there fighting the fight. They know way more than we do about the situation.

I do not claim that it’s rare to have an abusive ws. I am claiming it’s also not rare to have a ws who is worthy of reconciliation. And we have everything in between in that spectrum. And I think in the beginning most ws do not look worthy of reconciliation. We all look fairly similar in the beginning stages. Why? Because there has been no work done and anyone who cheats has a lot of work to do.

I don’t mind if you think myself or my husband bad people or not. I want to assure you that my views are not a defensive stance because I am in the "has cheated" population. I outgrew worrying about what others think a long time ago. I feel I have done the work I needed to do on my values, morals, and my deficiencies, and I know that I have dark and light about me. I just keep gravitating towards what I know is wholesome because ultimately I know this is what leads to lasting happiness.

It is possible however for me not to be able to completely condemn all ws as I am one. We tend to have compassion for places we have been ourselves.

I use my story when talking with you to avoid getting too intangible in our discussion. I try and not generalize wherever possible and speaking from my truth is a way to keep me on track there.

I am just not a divorce by default believer because I know some people are leaving more on the table than others. However, I definitely believe divorce is a valid response and sometimes even the only response.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:24 PM, Wednesday, April 16th]

** Member to Member **

While I don't believe my emotions cloud my judgment, I recognize that my negative feelings,,,,

I mean the following as feedback, not criticism: I know it's possible to overcome some emotion with logic, but your view of what constitutes a 'logical' reason for R is limited, and I suspect your emotions blind you to the various healthy rationales for R.

I experience a visceral reaction of disgust and pity when I hear about individuals who have suffered deep betrayal choosing to reconcile.

I understand feeling that way, but IMO you're letting your emotions enable you to post with excessive judgment and insufficient, filtered evidence.

It seems to scale with the severity of the betrayal. I am genuinely curious about the root of this subconscious response. Nevertheless, I work hard to ensure t emotional response does not bias my perspectives or recommendations. That would be highly hypocritical of me.

It looks like you've set yourself up as the judge of severity for other people. I think we'd all be better off if we let each BS be the judge of their own severity.

An example: My W had been planning to give ow a birthday present - d-day/NC day was ow's birthday; she was dumped via text msg - of an almost life-sized stuffed bear. As an afterthought, W clothed the bear in a worn-out t-shirt. The t-shirt, illegible and threadbare, was of little value to W, but it was important to me. Giving the bear to ow was just an annoyance to me. The t-shirt, however, still hurts. Mind you, I valued the t-shirt for the cartoon that was printed on it, even though the cartoon was no longer legible. And yet that was the gift that hurt me the most, even though W did not actually give it.

Human beings can always surprise each other with their values. IMO, it's incredibly presumptuous for one person to think they know what another person's way of valuing events is without asking. It's also presumptuous IMO to project one's own values onto other people without asking those other people.

More important, R & D are about the future, not about the past. Sure, most people realize their past affects their future. We all need to integrate our past into our own life stories. Integrating betrayal into mine was very difficult, as it is for many.

But I think that decision - how to write one's story for oneself - is based on what one thinks the future can bring. Some BSes can't figure out how to resolve the pain - the grief, anger, fear, shame - that comes with being betrayed, and they assume they can't, say, feel better than they do at some point. Some people are so traumatized by being betrayed that they can't see a bright future. Some people choose to hold onto their anger.

Some people decide that they won't let this trauma ruin the rest of their lives. They process the past in their own way and make their own decisions on how they will integrate being betrayed into their life stories and self-talk in ways that will release them from their painful past. Of those, some have R'ed, some have D'ed, some have made other choices.

*****

I agree that other cases exist, but my primary concern remains for those who are being abused. In my opinion, you see enough instances of that here.

What responses do you see in those cases?

My sense is the abused BSes read these types of responses:

1) You can't R with an unremorseful WS.
2) You're being abused.
3) If you insist on R, do a) _____, b) _____, and c) _____.

To be sure, I expect we disagree on the meaning of 'abuse'. I understand that some people experience being betrayed as abuse, and I agree every A has abusive elements, but I see only some As as abuse.

Abuse implies to me a pattern that pervades the whole or large part of a relationship, so an A that took place over a large part of a relationship would fit my definition of abuse. A single A is more limited. My W's A was 22 weeks out of a 2350+ week relationship - less than 1%. I'm not sure where I place the cutoff, but it's a lot more than 1% for me.

I mean the following as feedback, not criticism: I know it's possible to overcome some emotion with logic, but your view of what constitutes a 'logical' reason for R is limited, and I suspect your emotions blind you to the various healthy rationales for R

Agree to disagree. You provide me a list of logical reasons for R that don't equate to intangible concepts such as love or believing in forgiveness and we can discuss where I stand on them.

To be sure, I expect we disagree on the meaning of 'abuse'. I understand that some people experience being betrayed as abuse, and I agree every A has abusive elements, but I see only some As as abuse.

I think you should take more time to consider your stance on abuse. I mean what you've said is self evidently not true and whilst we are all entitled to our own definitions and opinions - I don't think you'd believe what you've said upon consideration. Simply think of an abusive relationship in line with what you've just stated.

Abuse implies to me a pattern that pervades the whole or large part of a relationship,

So given this, if a husband has a tough time at work and during that period for a month comes home and beats his wife, then it's not abuse? In the context of the marriage this is a one off period,you could even argue he just lost his way.

A single A is more limited. My W's A was 22 weeks out of a 2350+ week relationship - less than 1%.

I mean, one beating accounts for less than 1 percent of a relationship. So guess it's not always abusive to beat your wife?

Or is only physical violence abuse?

As someone who's had the crap beaten out of them (admittedly not in the context of a relationship) and cheated on... I don't think it's fair to say one is worse than the other. Many would vote one way, others the other.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 7:53 PM, Wednesday, April 16th]

Agree to disagree. You provide me a list of logical reasons for R that don't equate to intangible concepts such as love or believing in forgiveness and we can discuss where I stand on them.

Yet what the BS would likely find most fulfilling in their life is love. Whether that be with their reformed ws or in a relationship with someone else.

We get married for love, well a lot of us do, why is love suddenly an illogical reason to stay marriage if their partner is reformed?

You have said reconciliation would be making sure cheating never happens again, and I would tell you that’s the bare minimum. The lowest bar one could set. But you will never feel any assurance it will hold because without the type of work we talk about, the ws is not a safe bet for that. Go for the higher bar.

Yet what the BS would likely find most fulfilling in their life is love. Whether that love is with their reformed WS or in a relationship with someone else, it remains essential.

We get married for love—well, many of us do. So why is love suddenly an illogical reason to stay married if their partner is reformed?

This is precisely why I initially stated that a logical reason to stay with a partner is if you hold a genuine belief in 'destined soulmates.' Personally, I do not subscribe to this belief, but I respect those who do. For those who do subscribe to this belief, its entirely rational to stay and make it work. You can't throw away the one. For those who don’t hold this belief, it’s important to remember that love is still out there. There are potentially millions of other compatible partners you could meet and fall in love with. While this perspective may not be overly romantic, as a rationalist, it’s how I perceive reality.

This is why I continue to push back against the idea of staying for love alone. If you do not believe in cosmically defined soulmates, the only reason to stay out of love would be the fear that you won’t find it elsewhere.

Many people are stating that they don't want to stay with a partner out of fear... what am I missing here?

So I guess if you accept my premise, love isn't a logical reason to stay, if you are self assured you'd tell yourself 'I'll find comparable love out there with someone who hasn't caused me great pain'. If someone were to respond, "I don't want to find love elsewhere," I would ask, "Why?"

I have not found a good answer to that why? Perhaps others may suggest them.

In my view, if anyone claims they stay for love, it appears to be the same as staying out of fear (that or not having the drive due to comfort or laziness which seems equally ignoble), whether that's due to low self-esteem or other reasons.

You have said reconciliation would be making sure cheating never happens again, and I would tell you that’s the bare minimum. The lowest bar one could set. But you will never feel any assurance it will hold because without the type of work we talk about, the ws is not a safe bet for that. Go for the higher bar.

I also said... 'by any means necessary. Sometimes that would involve counseling and open phone policies, while other times it might involve forgiving a one-off occasion.'

I was trying to define reconciliation in the broadest possible terms. Not all marriages that experience require cheating intensive work. I'm not even convinced all cheaters need extensive work. It's case by case.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 10:12 AM, Thursday, April 17th]

This is precisely why I initially stated that a logical reason to stay with a partner is if you hold a genuine belief in 'destined soulmates.' Personally, I do not subscribe to this belief, but I respect those who do. For those who do subscribe to this belief, its entirely rational to stay and make it work. You can't throw away the one. For those who don’t hold this belief, it’s important to remember that love is still out there. There are potentially millions of other compatible partners you could meet and fall in love with. While this perspective may not be overly romantic, as a rationalist, it’s how I perceive reality.

This is why I continue to push back against the idea of staying for love alone. If you do not believe in cosmically defined soulmates, the only reason to stay out of love would be the fear that you won’t find it elsewhere.

My husband and I do not believe in soul mates, we both believe there are plenty of people out there we could have a relationship with if we got a divorce.

We had empty nest - well one was starting college but moving, they have since completed college.

We both had lucrative careers. House was paid for, and a decent real estate portfolio. I had the better 401k but we had enough assets to offset having to split those up.

And honestly even had we split, we would have been the types to come together amicably for shared family events and gatherings.

Yet here we are. Why? Because we love each other. We believe in forgiveness. We knew that while trust would maybe never be completely what it was, we knew that it would not be a better degree in another relationship because we never thought the other would do it either.

We have similar sensibilities, preferences, our friendship was still in tact despite the betrayal. We have been business partners our entire relationship. We have never lied to one another outside of the affairs. We wanted to stay together because we believed that we would be happier if we could make that work.

But if he cheated again, or I did, we would walk away from each other and I don’t think some of the things that were still intact would still be intact. It would no longer be as amicable. We could not claim not to understand the damages, being able to justify it all, etc.

The best reason two people stay together is because they want to despite knowing they don’t have to. And that’s true regardless if circumstances. To me this is the ONLY logical reason to go through some of the hellish rigors the reconciliation process requires.

That’s not to say I don’t respect people who choose to stay together for the kids or because they need time to become financially stable enough or whatever reason. But even some of them do fall back in love. The reason for staying changes.

Infidelity is a bomb that goes off that no one is prepared to deal with, not even the one who knowingly set it off. Yet through this process- there is so much improvement:

1. I am no longer a people pleaser. I do plenty for him but not to earn his love or his reaction - when I do things now it’s to show him my love. The difference in that dynamic alone freed me to be happy in the relationship. When you are under the impression you have to hustle to keep someone loving you, then eventually you will leave, or if you are avoidant (high likelihood for a people pleaser) you will cheat, etc- and it’s so self defeating because you may one day like me realize you did it to yourself.

2. We truly appreciate what each of us bring to the relationship. I sent him a text the other day because I came home (he had gone out or he would have heard it followed by a kiss) and saw he had done the first grass mowing of the season and it was so nice to look at. I wanted him to know how happy it made me and to thank him. He said to me yesterday how much he appreciates all the time and effort I take to make great meals for us every evening. This is a common type of affirmations that we say from our hearts regularly. We both feel seen and appreciated.

3. The passion is crazy. When a woman feels emotionally safe and fulfilled in a relationship, the intimacy we have experienced as a result is amazing. I am sure some of it is my age too, women can be very self conscious and we tend to lose some of that as we age. We have been reminded of the early days of our relationship.

4. We negotiate better. Prior to the work we have done, usually he got his way, and I never really worried about mine. The fact he was staying married to me, I gave that all my appreciation. Now I have hobbies too, and they cost money like his always did. I exist in a relationship where I feel like an equal. Some of this was age difference but a hell of a lot of it was due to my mousy nature.we create win wins.

5. I am no longer as avoidant. I still have that part of me, but I don’t let it stop me. I push through. I ask for what I want directly. He does the same. When everyone’s cards are on the table it’s so easy for everyone to get exactly what they want. And we feel confident we will get it.

6. I learned new coping mechanisms. I have been an escapist in some form or fashion all my life. Drinking too much wine for a period, shopping, spending too much time in my phone, keeping myself too busy, throwing myself too deep into planning trips, etc. The affair was just an escalation of that.

I could go on, but I wanted to help explain why I think it’s fine if the reason. You start R is for more practical reasons other than love, but in my book of the end result isn’t love then -Buddy, keep on moving! Go find it.

You see why you and I do agree on certain things- it’s because we both see the same end result as important. And that is that the bs hasn’t settled, they have found themselves happy and right where they want to be.

Sometimes that needs to be with someone else but for some of us the ultimate is to be able to work through the issues and be able to be in love with each other again.

I agree, the ba should be with someone new- but what if they can be the spouse who changed?

Now not all of us are a good bet, and I agree bs should not stay with an abusive partner or settle for less than they deserve. But I also know all ws are abusive just in the fact they had an affair. I do believe that none of this should or even can happen without extreme reform on the ws side.

I wrote all that out so maybe you could more fully understand where I am coming from.

I was trying to define reconciliation in the broadest possible terms. Not all marriages that experience require cheating intensive work. I'm not even convinced all cheaters need extensive work. It's case by case.

I will disagree.

Look, surface level, I had been a pretty great wife over the years before I cheated. I was also successful, a caring and nurturing mother who has three great adult children and good relationships with each to show for it, and this process took me years.

For one thing, the cheating itself can fuck a person up. Very true in my case. Some of the initial repairs are getting back to a baseline. This often takes months. The overwhelming shame takes over and you have to find your way out of it or it will keep you paralyzed.

Cheating requires a few things to be true:

1. The cheating party has at a minimum of an integrity issue. I don’t even think any cheating could be classified as that simple. But this one is hard to put back together in a way that it’s demonstrated enough to start to even build trust. Taking time to assess one’s values and improve our relationship to them takes a lot of time.

Personally, I had good track record, so I had to reconcile how could I be this perfect little wife and then out of seemingly nowhere just go off an have an affair? It became evident to me that just because I always did what I thought I should, didn’t mean that I had morals or values. I really had to spend a lot of time evaluating what I wanted to be important to me and why.

Lying is an issue I see ws struggle with in the forum. They have lied so long about anything and everything, they have to spend a lot of time realizing all the reasons they lie and reporam themselves. You can see in the ws forum posts like "why can’t I stop lying?" The number one reason? Because they do not feel they are good enough in their own. They have to embellish, they fear abandonment. That’s a lot to work through.

2. I had to learn to intentionally build trust after that being readily available to me. And learning to be intentional about it illuminated many lessons that I needed to learn.

3. Affairs are escapist behaviors. What about the life you built do you need to escape from? What are you going to do about it? This will lend itself to work to create a life you do not want or need to escape from and the ability to stay vigilant and not fall back into lazy behaviors where you expect your happiness to come only from external sources.

4. This often involves healing past trauma. I have talked to hundreds of ws, mostly female, a few male. Of those guess how many were CSA or SA survivors? Let’s say I asked 50? Probably something like 45.

Lack of dealing with past trauma is a big precipitator because it’s often why the ws is too selfish or selfless (both are a problem). It’s what makes people avoidant. We learn bad coping mechanisms because we never learned to deal with things. Practicing new coping mechanisms takes time. I had no idea why running or spending time in nature could help me become a better person- but those things help me cope with stress. There is a lot of experimentation that must occur to figure out what works for an individual.

5. I think males and females do have some differences in how and why they cheat. This is not true all the time, but women often cheat as exit affairs, men tend to be the cake eaters. I have met women who were cake eaters and men who were having exit affairs - but my overall antidotal observance is men have different skills within cheating. They are often able to avoid emotional attachment and are better at compartmentalization. Women tend to cheat often more for emotional reasons (though not always).

Regardless of which a person is there is a lot of digging to do. I know the path more of the exit affair person. That’s an avoidant who doesn’t take accountability for oneself. To tell my husband I cheated because I wanted to leave was not easy to come back from. But when I traced why I really wanted to leave- it was mostly all things that were within my control and not his. I would have eventually wanted to leave any relationship because what I had been escaping all along was myself.

Which leads me to the mother of them all-

6. Adjusting thoughts and perceptions. This one I still work on. Because I didn’t feel worthy, all my thoughts were blaming myself, feeling unloved, catastophizing, saying not nice things to myself, calling myself names. Do you think someone like that could receive love? No way. We are too busy looking for our slights. We are too busy creating stories that do not serve us.

Our relationship with ourselves is the number one predictor of our relationships with others. If I can’t live and respect myself how do I do it for others? We don’t. We can’t believe the person we are with loves us. We often see our spouse much better than we are. Being with an ap we finally find someone as despicable as we are, we even often feel like we are better than them and it makes us feel more secure and in control. That too is an illusion.

So we must learn to truly think differently, learn we are worthy of love, we can become wholesome and learn that a life without extreme chaos is healthy, safe and leads to lasting happiness.

Affairs are rarely just about orgasms. There has to be way more wrong at play. Here is some evidence for you- and I will frame it for men as you are one. Most men who are honest have had attractions to other women and even have been presented with opportunities to cheat. They are wired for sex, they think about it more times a day than most women do in a month. Yet, you don’t cheat. Why? There is not enough wrong with your internal make up that makes it worth it to you. Your integrity is higher, while you have past trauma you have better coping mechanisms, if something doesn’t make you happy you change it, you likely have numerous interests and stay engaged in your real life. Do you have deficiencies? Yes of course, everyone does. It’s just your make up of deficiencies you probably have learned to work around or deal with. People have temptations.

It would floor you to know I didn’t really care about having sex with the ap. No one ever believes that. But it’s not what I was looking for. I had sex at home, it was satisfying, and I had more than I even wanted. There was no lack. Many men who claim dead bedroom, yeah they are having a normal amount of sex. Could they be looking for sexual variety? Absolutely. But that in its own is not often enough to cheat.

So that’s my perspective. Marriage should be about love. People can fix their shit if they really want to do it for themselves. And if you cheat you assuredly have plenty of issues you need to get handled. The work that we are talking about is mindfulness, intention, reconstruction, practice, etc.

So how does one reconcile with their ws? Their ws is not the same person they were when they cheated. That’s the only way to have peace of mind about sleeping next to that person.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:54 PM, Thursday, April 17th]

Sorry double post.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:06 PM, Thursday, April 17th]

I think this is a fantastic response and should be pinned to the forum for those who chose reconciliation. I think it's about the most healthy view on reconciliation I've ever read.

My husband and I do not believe in soul mates, we both believe there are plenty of people out there we could have a relationship with if we got a divorce.

Ok, so my question is, unless you think their is something innately special about him. If not a soul mate - so other reason - why is it a preference to stay rather than to go? This is the crux of what I don't understand.

Yet here we are. Why? Because we love each other. We believe in forgiveness. We knew that while trust would maybe never be completely what it was, we knew that it would not be a better degree in another relationship because we never thought the other would do it either.

Statistically speaking, if you bin off a cheater and move on, you will find someone loyal eventually. Two incidents marriages that end with the spouse cheating is pretty rare but does happen. Three though? I'd keep moving till I found it. Ever time you leave a cheating incident the odds go down. So why wouldn't it be better in another relationship?

We have similar sensibilities, preferences, our friendship was still in tact despite the betrayal. We have been business partners our entire relationship. We have never lied to one another outside of the affairs. We wanted to stay together because we believed that we would be happier if we could make that work.

Again, are you suggesting that this is special only to him? I understand generally you have many reasons to love and like him - if you believe as previously stated there are plenty of equally matched people out there, why was it better to stay for you?

But if he cheated again, or I did, we would walk away from each other and I don’t think some of the things that were still intact would still be intact. It would no longer be as amicable. We could not claim not to understand the damages, being able to justify it all, etc.

Why start now? What's different in a second instance to the first? Are you basically saying now are exactly where I am. The only difference between you and me is the number of chances? You allow one. I allow zero.

My husband and I do not believe in soul mates, we both believe there are plenty of people out there we could have a relationship with if we got a divorce.

Ok, so my question is, unless you think their is something innately special about him. If not a soul mate - so other reason - why is it a preference to stay rather than to go? This is the crux of what I don't understand

.

Okay, good and fair question.

Well, there are complications no matter which way you choose. I think it’s natural in many ways to want to give a 20 year marriage a chance if both people want it.

In my view, we could still keep our family in tact, not have to introduce them to new people who may or may not fit within our dynamic. We already know we are compatible. While there may be lots of people to be compatible with the dating pool at our age at the time meant that you may now have to accept and love new step children, deal with their exes, etc. Though I have stepchildren in this marriage and had to deal with a crazy ex, I wasn’t really relishing another round. And the ones who haven’t been married or had kids may really not understand how my kids will always be a top priority for me even though they are raised and very independent.

So yeah maybe some fears but this really wasn’t that inhibiting towards not divorcing, I was too exhausted to really entertain the next chapter of love. I probably would have moved into one of our rentals and spent a year or two alone anyway.

I just wasn’t in the space that seemed any more attractive to me than staying to see if it could be fixed. The bottom line is I saw there wasn’t any reason to rush toward a resolution. I had all the time in the world to figure out the next step. No biological clock was ticking.

I knew I had a lot of work to do in myself so for me if he was willing to try, that seemed reasonable to me.

I think you just have to frame it as after that bomb goes off, you need time to orient yourself and therefore you just sort of go into that fumbling around period.

Yet here we are. Why? Because we love each other. We believe in forgiveness. We knew that while trust would maybe never be completely what it was, we knew that it would not be a better degree in another relationship because we never thought the other would do it either

.

Statistically speaking, if you bin off a cheater and move on, you will find someone loyal eventually. Two incidents marriages that end with the spouse cheating is pretty rare but does happen. Three though? I'd keep moving till I found it. Ever time you leave a cheating incident the odds go down. So why wouldn't it be better in another relationship?

I don’t agree. What the statistics show is 50 percent of relationships are effected by infidelity. As a ws, I wasn’t really worried about finding a cheater. Whether that was on his radar or not, he has never said. We have lots of people here who had cheating in every marriage they have been in. I personally think a remorseful and reformed ws is as safe as a bet as dating. But then again, these were not part of the thought process.

More it was giving up a marriage that had been good for so long that created most of our hesitancy. I should mention at the time of my affair, I was having a midlife crisis, had been diagnosed with emotional exhaustion, and my last child was leaving the house. I never say that because they sound like excuses, they are not. I willfully chose to have an affair. But the reality is my husband knew me not to be well at the time. I think at the time it was easy for him to label it an anomaly.

But at the time of my confession I had already put myself in therapy for two months. I was already understanding that the emotional exhaustion was just another symptom that I allowed my life to become unbalanced.

We have similar sensibilities, preferences, our friendship was still in tact despite the betrayal. We have been business partners our entire relationship. We have never lied to one another outside of the affairs. We wanted to stay together because we believed that we would be happier if we could make that work.

Again, are you suggesting that this is special only to him? I understand generally you have many reasons to love and like him - if you believe as previously stated there are plenty of equally matched people out there, why was it better to stay for you?

I do think we have a special easy going way of being together. It was worth preserving it. I don’t think I was comparing it to whether I would have it with someone else. Odds are I might find someone that I like different and just as important things to like.

It was more not easily giving up on the marriage. There was a lot there that was worth saving that had not been effected by the infidelity.

And because I am really taking about my ws experience and not my bs experience, for me it was a reckoning to realize he wasn’t rushing towards the door. What that actually did for me is show me how stupid I had been. How blind. I had really thought that I had to do all these things to keep him? Yet here he was staying with me at the worst I possibly could be? It was an amazing testimony of all the love I could have had if I had worked on myself instead of escaping. I was a fool.

But if he cheated again, or I did, we would walk away from each other and I don’t think some of the things that were still intact would still be intact. It would no longer be as amicable. We could not claim not to understand the damages, being able to justify it all, etc.

Why start now? What's different in a second instance to the first? Are you basically saying now are exactly where I am. The only difference between you and me is the number of chances? You allow one. I allow zero.

So when faced with one infidelity, it is feasible that it is was an anomaly. I believe people can shield themselves from believing the affair will not have the impact that it actually does. Most people know about affairs from tv or movies but there is no real idea of the aftermath. There are justifications that you can say "okay, I see you know you have work to do. I will give you a chance to work on them." Mostly because the ba sees value in staying married after all, they often never lost their sense of commitment and that’s doesn’t fall away as easily as most might guess.

If he does it again, or if I would, none of that is true. It negates the years we spent mending, and it’s inconceivable that one would go out and repeat the process knowing the hell we both went through. At that point, you are cruel.

Also, what would be the point? You said you changed, obviously you didn’t. I would never believe you were capable of it.

I honestly think most people go into reconciliation with no plan. They just aren’t rushing to get somewhere else and they like their life the way it used to be and they hope that will come back. Especially people who have been married a big chunk of time. As I said grief starts with bargaining and denial. That means for some period of time most bs are going to hope this will go away and they can get back to their normal life. Most people are going to delay the decision until they feel clearer. And if the ws minds their steps and does what they should do to be a successful rebuilder, then that time frame for the decision is often pushed out.

Typically the true decision to stay is so much later. I have noticed around year three most bs’s really start to decide on reconciliation and will tend to either engage more in the process or they start detaching and preparing for divorce. Some stick it out longer to reach a goal such as maybe they have a kid leaving soon or they want to have time to create a better career.

I do not think most bs stay long term due to manipulation because the ws who doesn’t do the work, their mask will slip enough they will wear out their welcome. For most couples, the actual infidelity is the first shot, the fatal shots come later.

In most cases, the bs will tell you they never thought they would stay with a cheater, and there is some shame they have to work through. But for them to do that I think what the ws is offering up has to be good enough to make them want to heal that shame.

In your wwTL story (which I feel comfortable discussing as he gave permission) I think there was a lot there she did after to seal the coffin. Could he have stayed had she worked on herself in a different way than being passive and accepting crumbs? Maybe not. Not everyone is cut out in the end to be able to heal while still staying married to their ws. And that is the risk the ws took no matter the circumstances. So I always support divorce even on day one if that’s what the bs decides. I just don’t think many are prepared to decide that as early as you believe you would.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:13 PM, Thursday, April 17th]