SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

^ yes I agree with that.

In order to heal WHILE staying with your WS, you need the whole truth.
If they leave or the BS leaves, what actually happened and the truth of it isn’t as important. Time and distance healed me, along with a rotation of 20 year olds. (Hey, I was still young then too!)

Am I correct if I assume that you married her to make each other happy? So If she doesn't see it that way, what is the sense of the marriage again?

Another issue, as I understand she is eagerly working on herself with her therapist, but honesty, atonement and real reconcilation is not part of the curriculum. So what difference does her working on herself make to you? That she feels better about herself? Just tell her that you overreacted and you are good, job done, money saved.

You sound like sharp minded person, but somehow you fall deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole, where you talk yourself into having no boundaries. Think about that. Read about repeated prisoner dilemma and the winning strategies, they apply especially well to situations with little to no empathy.

[This message edited by Itiswhatitis000 at 7:37 AM, Friday, July 10th]

I think BraveSirRobin is absolutely right about everything she wrote. Read her post again and then again. Let her words sink in, brother.

She told me, "My therapist has told me over the last few sessions that I am not to try and make you happy, or try to help you in any way. I have to heal myself and that is my only priority. You have to heal you and that is not my concern."

From my own personal experience and from reading from other members most therapists are fucking clueless about infidelity and its consequences. My sister is a therapist with a Masters degree and she's equally fucking clueless (although we've had some discussions about it lately and I'm trying to educate her). Two of the three therapists I've seen in the last decade were equally fucking clueless (the exception having been a BH!).

Even if this therapist never said this, which is entirely possible, your WW's attitude is shockingly cold, callous and indifferent.

Man, I've been around here for a long time. I've followed the stories of too many members to even remember. I try very hard to impart the knowledge, insight and wisdom that I've gained here, from my own journey, and all of books and countless articles I've read over the years. I try very hard to remain as neutral as I can when it comes to members reconciliation or divorcing. I honestly don't care which road a member takes, because it's not my life to live.

My only hope is to help people survive infidelity and find peace.

If I've learned anything in my near 60 years being human, it's that peace of mind, body and spirit is the single greatest gift we can give to ourselves. It is precious.

My advice to you at this point is go gray rock, hard core 180, and start the process towards divorce.

I know that you still love the woman you thought you knew. That woman was never there. You saw only what she wanted you to see.

I'm so incredibly sorry you're going through this nightmare. You strike me as a truly good man, honorable and worthy.

Find your peace, Gemmy.

My initial thought is she is stalling for time to get her own ducks in a row for whatever she is planning to do

I had given my wife a list of questions that I wanted answered and she too stalled, long enough to get through the Christmas holiday. When I got her answers it caused a shitstorm. She purposely delayed answering them so we could get through the holidays. She told me she was taking her time to make sure she was thorough because she knew if she missed something and it came up later it would be even worse

BS. She stalled long enough to get through the holidays

Yet another example where a traditional counselor is going to do more harm than good.

I completely disagree with the theory this therapist is pushing. The injured party is you. Yes, she is broken, but her actions deeply injured you and the marriage. Her primary goal should be to make amends to you and the marriage.

Of course this method proposed by this therapist is attractive to her...it essentially allows her to avoid accountability to the injured party. I see this as a mess. Of course she needs to work on herself ...but that will be naturally accomplished by dealing with what she did to you and marriage.

If you want some good information on the best way to reconcile....go to YouTube and search Dr. Jake Porter Couples Centered Recovery Model. Listen to his explanation. I think you will agree.

"Oops, I shot you in your stomach with this here 44mag. You should go see if you can find a surgeon or doctor or something. I’m gonna go over here and see if I can figure out why I pulled the trigger. Ok, maybe see you around later! Tootles!"

See how fucking ridiculous that is?

My IC was also a BS — he didn’t tell us that until the last session or two — but he also made a bad call early on, despite his 35-years of counseling experience.

So many IC/MC want to focus on the outcome, and to get one, they want to look at moving beyond the A to what’s next to get the M back on track.

I get it, if they only drag the WS through the mud, or focus on the BS pain — there is not a lot of room for "results" for the counselor. The focus becomes about better ways to communicate, better ways to relationship build, and bury the past.

My wife offered a belated confession, years after the A was over. The confession was very incomplete.

The A went from a one time thing, expanded to four months, then a year, then a four-year LTA, with a two year EA after AP dumped her.

So, enough TT to kill any momentum the first six months.

And then my wife told me our MC (who was also IC for each of us), told her to NOT tell me everything.

They both played to the outcome, that maybe the NEXT truth would be the straw that ends the M.

Next session with all of us there, I called him out.

The A is time, love and energy that was taken from me.

If I was going to consider R, I had to have a FULL accounting of what was taken from me, and then decide what to do with ALL the information.

At first, he balked a bit, and then understood. As a BS, his WS had an exit A, he NEVER got all the info on that. Anyway, he apologized and noted that he should advise for the best interest of each of us, and let go of the outcome. Of course, letting go of the outcome was also my path to strength as well.

Back to your inquiry.

Yes, my wife had to heal herself, and I had to heal me.

However, the only way R was possible (and this is one of the reasons R is uphill both ways) — was that I told my wife, she had to lead the healing of the M.

My wife agreed and literally said, "I broke this, I need to be in charge of fixing it."

Words lose their meaning after infidelity, so I added, "Show me, don’t tell me."

That’s when our R began.

The show me isn’t her being stuck in shame, it isn’t her being less than me either. I held up my end on helping heal the M as well, by allowing her the room to be better and do better.

She simply took the lead on hearing me, took the lead on kindness, took the lead on checking on me, backing off when I needed space. R starts with consistent effort (not perfect effort).

Maybe I am confused but why does she need "more time" for full disclosure and why are you allowing that? Either tell the truth or don’t. You are allowing trickle truth which is the worse truth possible.

[This message edited by Emotionalaffair24 at 5:33 AM, Friday, July 10th]

In my opinion, full disclosure from the WS to the BS is just as important for the healing of the WS as for that of the BS.

If the WS doesn’t confront the full scope of their actions, are they really working on themselves, or just on the self-stories they manufactured?

I just know that I got these ideas confused as I was going thru it.

Continued deception is continued abuse. A BS should be extremely cautious, but might tolerate it for a time to see if R is possible, their choice.

Perceiving that it’s entirely possible that Gemmy’s next step is a step away from the marriage, I want him to know that he wouldn’t be leaving behind the only cure to his ailment if he chooses that.

Absolutely, I fully agree with this.

Unexpectedly yesterday my wayward came out spontaneously with more transparency and telling she wants to find a way to fully reveal her infidelities in a way that leaves nothing to hide.

I can say I did not expect it. She is very similar to the OP wife in many ways.

Out of the blue, this is a first.

Not going to building any hope up just yet, but for sure I am receptive to see where this goes.

(And I am not saying that it is already honestly or that is how it should happen or expected. Until all lies and secrets aren’t revealed and cleared completely, there’s no healing of the relationship damage. While those survive is like infidelity is still happening now. It can only end with the truth or a breakup. Only then one can rebuild).

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 10:08 AM, Friday, July 10th]

The thing is vastly different when you still have feelings and love strong enough for your wayward that you just can’t see them as a vermin and leave, but you want to try again and see you both healed.

Just to clarify, it's not necessary to see your WS as "vermin" in order to leave for your own health. When someone you love betrays you, and you're forced to formulate a response, your feelings and actions do not have to align.

We have a member here who was filled with rage on discovery of his WW's affair. He treated her like vermin. After months (maybe it was years) of venting, he realized that traumatizing her wasn't helping either one of them. From then on, he treated her with decency, but also with distance. Five years after D-Day, he finally filed for divorce. He's since said he'd give her one of his kidneys if she needed it, but he wished he'd acknowledged much sooner that there was never any chance of R.

It's ok to hate your WS. It's also not required. Even if she was truly working to earn R, you wouldn't have any obligation to try it. Even if you still love her, you can leave.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 1:08 PM, Friday, July 10th]

I think this marriage is beyond saving. Had I invited a girl I was sleeping with to our wedding and my wife found out about it, I'd never be given a chance to explain, she would just be done. And had I acted the was she's acting now, I know for a fact that she would ghost me forever. Not even say anything, just disappear (before the divorce papers had even cooled from the printer).

You're grasping at straws by staying.

I just learned yesterday that a good friend couple of mine are officially divorced. Apparently they had separated last year, and I interacted with him for a full year without even being the wiser. His ex-wife is my wife's boss, and while she had seen some hints of there being problems behind the scenes, she was also stunned to find out. The way he described it, they still care about each other, it was just that the marriage was no longer working for them.

This isn't working for you. You still care, but she's the iceberg and you're the Titanic.

Just to clarify, it's not necessary to see your WS as "vermin" in order to leave for your own health. When someone you love betrays you, and you're forced to formulate a response, your feelings and actions do not have to align.

You are right.
It was taking 2 extremes, if you see someone as vermin whatever pain that person did you fades much faster.

It’s not exactly demonization but sort of seeing them as an incarnation of your disgust.
You don’t care for what people you find repulsive do, you just want nothing to do with them.

To clarify too: you can feel total disgust for someone (as a vermin) and not hate them. Hate isn’t necessary, indifference is worse.

Here we tend to orbit around the other extreme (love) so no matter the disgust you feel you have dissonance that wants to find a way to heal yourself since you can remove them so abruptly.

That’s the harder part that you see why BSes don’t leave. Leaving is still the easiest and quickest way out of infidelity. A safe way to heal yourself.

Feeling disgust (or even hate) for your wayward doesn’t mean they are a vermin, it just means your reaction vertex towards that extreme emotion.

That’s the harder part that you see why BSes don’t leave. Leaving is still the easiest and quickest way out of infidelity. A safe way to heal yourself.

I don’t think any path should be thought of as "safe". There are hazards and loses to be had no matter what path is chosen.

An R attempt is almost guaranteed to have more pain in the short term. It’s a gamble at a chance of preserving something resembling the life we were living before. It’s risky, but there is value there. So much rests on how likely success is, and no one really knows that in any singular event, there are lots of opinions on what it is on a broad population level.

A divorce comes with huge costs, and the money is the least of it. Partial or full loss of custody. Estrangement from family. The rhythms of your life getting completely upended. I’ve heard that divorced men statistically die earlier. Divorce shouldn’t be thought of as the safe path, IMO. It’s one option available that is a long, hard road in itself. But it may be the best option available. It beats staying with a unremorseful cheater every time.

"My therapist has told me over the last few sessions that I am not to try and make you happy, or try to help you in any way. I have to heal myself and that is my only priority. You have to heal you and that is not my concern."

My guess is that this is an incorrect paraphrase that essentially reveals your wife's framing of her impression of her duties.

I agree that is not her job to "make you happy". No one can *make* someone else happy, because you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. So I agree with that.

She can and should stop hurting you. Stop lying to you. Stop denying you agency in your relationship to make an informed decision.

She can and should try to help you as your partner. I've never heard my IC to "not help my wife" with any of her issues. In fact, outside of the affair, a decent portion of my IC is understanding both my issues and my family's issues and how to best help work through them or cope with them. That she tacked this (not try to help you in any way) on, and I do think she tacked this on, speaks volumes to how she feels about taking any responsibility for her affair. Which is to say, none.

She did it. It happened. And you can fucking deal with it.

Proverbs 30:20.

Sending strength.

Gemmy, I think you’ve written one of the most articulate, self-aware pieces on this nightmare I’ve ever read. Your intellectual depth is incredible, especially when you’re the one bleeding out. But I’m going to give it to you straight, mate: how many more of these massive red flags do you actually need to see before you let go? I understand you love your wife. But is love enough? Frankly, I understand you love your wife, but maybe you shouldn't.

I wish so deeply I could transmit how I was feeling when I went through infidelity to you and then juxtapose it with how I feel now with my soon to be wife. This is something I know you can have to. I wish I had the ability to give you the knowledge that their is someone out there worthy of a man as deep and articulate as you. A woman who will be faithful and loyal to you. That you can build a relationship with them without the triggers and pain of betrayal.

Look at the hard data. This isn’t her fourth disclosure chance; it’s her fourth failure. Stalling and delaying this for months has nothing to do with her digging deeper for the truth. She’s just calculating exactly how much she can get away with hiding.

Worse, she’s weaponising her therapy. She’s using fancy therapy talk about self-healing as a get-out-of-jail-free card to ignore your trauma and stay completely selfish. And then there is the absolute nuclear option: her bringing her lover to your actual wedding because it was her special day. Saying that so matter-of-factly shows a profound, structural lack of empathy. She didn't just break her vows down the line; she built your entire marriage on a grotesque lie with him standing right there watching.

You hit the nail on the head when you asked what you're even rebuilding if you have to carry the pain by yourself. Reconciliation takes two people. If she’s opting out of the repair work, you’re basically just flat-sharing with your abuser while she works on herself.

You worry that if your analytical mind takes over, it’ll be the end of the marriage. Gemmy, your analytical mind isn’t the enemy here—it’s your survival instinct trying to keep you sane. Your emotions are clinging to the ghost of a relationship that never existed the way you thought it did. You are standing right in the blast radius of a bomb she detonated, hoping she’ll help you sweep up the ash. She won't. It's time to stop looking for nuance, stop playing the understanding husband, and get yourself out of the wreckage.

Look, you may not want to hear all this, but I think you radiate a good soul and I want to see you out of pain. Clinging to lost causes will be the longest route to getting out of pain.

You aren't Mr. Smith and you haven't gone to Washington. This isn't Hollywood. There is nothing romantic about fighting for lost causes.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 7:23 PM, Friday, July 10th]

A divorce comes with huge costs, and the money is the least of it. Partial or full loss of custody. Estrangement from family. The rhythms of your life getting completely upended. I’ve heard that divorced men statistically die earlier. Divorce shouldn’t be thought of as the safe path, IMO. It’s one option available that is a long, hard road in itself. But it may be the best option available. It beats staying with a unremorseful cheater every time.

Ah yes, my point was subpar. I only focused on the emotional aspect of recovery (abuser removed from the abused proximity).

First, your posts describe complex ideas very well. I don't know you could communicate what you communicate in short posts.

The opening post of this thread is about as concise an exposition of the problems that have to be faced after infidelity as I've ever read. I think you're right on track in recognizing and exposing so many of the issues that have to be resolved before one can R.

*****

I came to SI shortly after a former therapist told me, 'You heal you. Plainsong heals plainsong. Together you heal your M, if you want to.' But it went without saying that we'd have to support each other in our healing; if we didn't, R would not go well.

I would hold off condemning your W's therapist until you talk with her and find out what she really said. My W's therapist, who also became our MC, told me that my W's IC was focused on her basic issues, the ones that enabled her to cheat, not the A itself.

I never sought a performance, so my not being the focus of my W's therapy was fine with me, because W was always committed to meeting the requirements for R - honesty, changing from cheater to good partner, IC, MC, arranging dates (she's much better than I am in that area), sex, high enough percentage of 'yes' answers to requests, etc., etc., etc.

IOW, my W looked remorseful on d-day and never wavered. TBH, many months later, she said she didn't begin to feel remorse for at least 5 months. I don't know what to make of that; nor dis our MC. We all agreed her behavior was genuine; I think it meant that W knew how a good partner acts, so that's what she did, but didn't start to understand her betrayal for 5 months.

From what you write, your W is different from mine. I think the corollary is that she's not a good candidate for R. That may change, but right now, she's just not a good candidate for R.

You know the issues. You know what you want. I think you've either got or starting to get a good sense of what you want and how to know if you're getting it.

It's up to you to decide how you will respond. You've probably got 40+ years of average life expectancy. A few months spent finding out if your W can become who you want her to be isn't much in the context of 85 years. OTOH, it's also reasonable to file for D Monday.